Starfleet Jedi

Eh, I just got done saying that I'm petered out on the Trek/Wars debate in my intro post and this is the very next thing I do....

I don't recall seeing a lot of discussion about fleet logistics on the other guy's turf being discussed much. In other words, the intent of this discussion comes down to the ability of a ship's self-sufficiency in another universe.

Say what you will about Star Trek: Voyager, but it did demonstrate that a Federation vessel is able to survive in a self-sufficient state quite well for extended periods of time far away from Federation support facilities and even act as a support and construction facility itself in regards to smaller craft (such as the Delta Flyer) - at least in the Star Trek universe, that is. Though Voyager probably encountered alien technology vastly incompatible with Starfleet standards, it was always able to somehow find just the right piece of technology needed to keep their warp core together or keep their replicators online - of course, the fact that warp cores and replicators seem to be nearly universal is probably a big help. But how would it fare in a universe that does not employ such technology? Keep in mind that a Starfleet vessel's replicators may give it an advantage when conducting extremely isolated operations, but that it's unlikely to be its saving grace - otherwise, rather than having to conduct numerous trades and negotiations with aliens (as seen in the Voyager episode Resistence) the Voyager simply could've relied on its replicators; nevermind the fact that replicators are still dependent on some source of raw material.

As for an Imperial Star Destroyer, I know little in the way of how logistics for such a vessel would be conducted. I've seen sources claim that an ISD (as opposed to a VSD or SSD) can conduct independent operations for as long as six years, and according to Crakken's Threat Dossier a later Republic Star Destroyer, while sacrificing endurance for a more compact design, is still able to conduct independent operations for a very impressive three years (to put this in perspective, most USN SSN/SSBN operations last for only six months, giving us some sort of measuring stick in terms of how to compare food consumption rates for a human crew in relation to an Imperial/New Republic vessel; also note that an SSN/SSBN is the only type of vessel in the USN that does typical conduct such extended independent operations. CVNs never conduct independent operations [let's leave their protective screen out of this since we're talking strictly logistics] as they're highly dependent on resupply ships to ensure appropriate stocks of crew and aircraft related supplies. This gives us a further benchmark on which to measure the endurance of an Imperial/New Republic ship to measure against as these vessels routinely operate starfighters and other auxiliary craft that would require a logistical chain of their own).

Various sources, such as the computer game TIE Fighter, gives an extensive list of various support vessels that are dedicated to or are capable of serving in a logistics supply chain - combat utility vehicles that can rearm and repair other craft, armored transports and shuttles that can not only function as an analog to a carrier onboard support craft but are capable of in effect acting as heavy bombers, and various tugs and ferries that either have sizable cargo holds, the ability to carry cargo containers, or both. TIE Fighter implies that at least a few of these types are stowed aboard Star Destroyers, and its possible that a Star Destroyer functions somewhat like a modern aircraft carrier, with these various support craft functioning as a highly mobile logistics chain able to support the mother craft wherever deployed. This would further imply that, like a Federation ship, an Imperial vessel is highly dependent on existing infrastructure that is able to support the technology onboard a Star Destroyer.

Given this, the ability of a single Federation (or Klingon, or Romulan, or etc) vessel to conduct extended operations in the Star Wars galaxy, or an Imperial (or New Republic, or etc) vessel to conduct extended operations in the Star Trek galaxy, would be interesting to see.

I really don't know the unsupported operational longevity of a Star Wars capital ship like a Star Destroyer, but I have to wonder when they would ever be considered "unsupported". Short of taking them completely out of their own galaxy (such as being teleported to the Milky Way without any means of return), they're never really out of support. Star Wars ships seem to be able to get around their entire galaxy within a few hours or days and have virtually instant communications throughout the galaxy, as well. There's simply nowhere in their own galaxy where they're out of reach of support.

If they were invading another galaxy via a wormhole or other steady means of access, I don't see that they would have much trouble getting resupplied, assuming they could secure the "away" end of the access route.

However, Ted, the EU would disagree with that, as the Heir to the Empire trilogy had established Admiral Thrawn in an ISD (possibly more SDs or other ships) roaming about the Unknown Regions exploring it for about five years, most of the time out of touch and resupply from the Empire.
-Mike

Voyager is not the only ship to go on, or consider, a long-range mission - it was, however, very badly damaged and forced to do so. They also ran into an older Klingon ship that had been traveling the Delta Quadrant for longer in "Prophecy."

Logistically speaking, a fully intact and undamaged Federation vessel in the TNG+ era can operate on its own for a very long time. In practice, limited mainly by not taking serious combat damage, having to replace/retire personnel, running out of fuel, or running out of dilithium crystals; hypothetically [perhaps thanks to the Bussards] this can be projected to be three hundred years ("By any other name," "Where none have gone before")

Ted C wrote:I really don't know the unsupported operational longevity of a Star Wars capital ship like a Star Destroyer, but I have to wonder when they would ever be considered "unsupported". Short of taking them completely out of their own galaxy (such as being teleported to the Milky Way without any means of return), they're never really out of support. Star Wars ships seem to be able to get around their entire galaxy within a few hours or days and have virtually instant communications throughout the galaxy, as well. There's simply nowhere in their own galaxy where they're out of reach of support.

Except when they do take weeks or months, and move much slower than that. Hyperdrive speeds are nowhere near consistent. If they were consistently fast, by the way, they would have no reason to design ships to operate for long stretches.

IMO, the best in-universe explanation for the occasional fast speed is specific fast hyperspace "lanes" - which means logistics does become an issue, especially in a galaxy without established hyperspace lanes.

If they were invading another galaxy via a wormhole or other steady means of access, I don't see that they would have much trouble getting resupplied, assuming they could secure the "away" end of the access route.

I do - but then, the EU suggests that capital ships are well supplied to start with, and as Voyager does point out, it is quite possible to scrounge supplies even when your ship is badly off. While it's not clear that a Star Destroyer has as much self-repair capability as seems standard in Federation design, and does not have ramscoops to refuel itself. Things could get problematic if the Empire overreaches, or if the Federation chokes off the wormhole for months at a time, and the Empire does have to assemble all the supplies before it launches operations.

The sections of the EU concerned with detailed logistics the most are the game related books, IIRC. That's where I'd suggest looking.

Jedi Master Spock wrote: Voyager is not the only ship to go on, or consider, a long-range mission - it was, however, very badly damaged and forced to do so. They also ran into an older Klingon ship that had been traveling the Delta Quadrant for longer in "Prophecy."

Logistically speaking, a fully intact and undamaged Federation vessel in the TNG+ era can operate on its own for a very long time. In practice, limited mainly by not taking serious combat damage, having to replace/retire personnel, running out of fuel, or running out of dilithium crystals; hypothetically [perhaps thanks to the Bussards] this can be projected to be three hundred years ("By any other name," "Where none have gone before")

We actually have heard of in the TNG-era as early as "The Emissary" of a Klingon K'tinga battlecruiser, the T'Ong, that was sent on a 75 year round-trip exploration mission with the crew in deep sleep apparently much of that time.

In later episodes, such as DS9's "The Sound of Her Voice", we learn of Federation starships who are off on deep-space exploration missions in excess of 8 years or more. In this case, the U.S.S. Olympia was exploring the Beta quadrent, and was completely cut off from all contact with or resupply from the Federation the majority of that time.

By VOY's 7th season once contact is established with the wayward ship via the Pathfinder Project, it is mentioned that some of the deep-ranging exploration ships that are 5 years from Voyager's then 30,000 ly distant position are being sent intercept it.
-Mike

Some idle stream-of-consciousness speculation, but what if Starfleet would have an advantage due to engineering and science?

While reading the OP I was reminded of the Vorta who referred to "one of those legendary Starfleet engineers" (IIRC) who could "turn rocks into replicators". Voyager managed to build and rebuild all kinds of crap, though this was suggested to be due in part to the unorthodox engineering genius of Torres.

We really haven't seen a Star Wars version of such a person.

I had a teacher once who suggested that Rome could've excelled in its technology faster were it not for the fact that the truly skilled laborers were generally slaves. Compare this to capitalism where the truly skilled are owners of their work (provided they don't trade that away too cheaply).

Could there be the same problem with droids having the know-how in the Empire? Obi-Wan asked droids to ID the saberdart . . . the Falcon computer was so complicated that Han and Chewie needed 3PO (i.e. another droid) to translate what it was indicating. R2-D2 is not even equipped for significant human interaction (i.e. no voicebox), and he's a repair droid . . . one is reminded of indecipherable hexadecimal error messages.

True, the Geonosians engineered the Death Star, though we don't know the full details of that. The Kaminoans engineered the DNA of clonetroopers. There are engineers . . . but are they widespread, or ultra-specialists? Could it be that the society is largely . . . automatic?

It's been suggested that all of history is a history of excess . . . i.e. if we were on the verge of starvation throughout time, then there would not be the excess energy for wars or moonshots or what-have-you. The Empire is obviously past society-wide food shortages, but does the excess of the Empire see at its base the droids who keep everything going and are the primary harbingers of knowing how to make things go?

In other words, is the Empire a Pakled society with droid-slaves that make them strong and go?

Some novel quotes:

"Either get the gravity generators calibrated or disable them altogether," he snarled at a blue-scanned image of a cringing Neimoidian engineer. "If this continues, you won't live long enough to be killed by the Republic."
"But, but, but sir-it's really up to the repair droids-"
"And because they are droids, it's useless to threaten them. So I am threatening you. Understand?"

- RotS Ch. 5

These suggest otherwise:

"Through a gap torn in the cloud by the curve of his cockpit, Obi-Wan could see R2-D2 grappling with a buzz droid hand-to-hand. Well: saw-arm-to-saw-arm. Even flying blind and nearly out of control through the middle of a space battle, Obi-Wan could not avoid a second of disbelief at the bewildering variety of auxiliary tools and aftermarket behaviors Anakin had tinkered onto his starfighter's astromech, even beyond the sophisticated upgrades performed by the Royal Engineers of Naboo. The little device was virtually a partner in its own right."

- RotS, Ch. 1

"The Royal Engineers of Naboo's aftermarket wizardry made their modified R-units the most sought after in the galaxy; {...}"

- RotS, Ch. 6

What we're seeing here . . . mixed in with the multi-role use of the term "technician" in the ANH novel to suggest everything from computer specialists to quasi-janitors . . . is that in the one instance of a starship engineering view, the engineer is there largely for oversight of droids . . . more manager than engineer.

Anyway, just some idle speculation . . . I don't think it really goes anywhere. Carry on.

Well, Voyager is a rather exceptional case if you ask me.

Not to make Starfleet sound fragile of course, but I do seem to recall that the not even ten years old E-D needed quite specific maintenance to keep on flying (the infamous 'baryon sweep' episode).

Then again, it could be that this is a specific problem for the Galaxy Class, we've certainly never heard Janeway lament they didn't have access to their 'warpship flythrough wash' ;)

Roondar wrote:Well, Voyager is a rather exceptional case if you ask me.

Not to make Starfleet sound fragile of course, but I do seem to recall that the not even ten years old E-D needed quite specific maintenance to keep on flying (the infamous 'baryon sweep' episode).

Then again, it could be that this is a specific problem for the Galaxy Class, we've certainly never heard Janeway lament they didn't have access to their 'warpship flythrough wash' ;)

I don't think Voyager's an exception:
When have we ever heard of Baryonic sweeps for the E-E, or the Defiant, for example?
I think that the GCS were perhaps the only ones needing it, sporting new types of Warp Nacelles.
The newer nacelles on Voyager, the E-E, the Defiant could have been exempt of these sweeps.

As far as endurance goes, Federation ships are powered by deuterium/antideuterium reactions, and deuterium is readily available, at least in our universe. If the same physical characteristics apply to the Star Wars universe, then deuterium should be abundant there as well. The dilithium is another matter. While not a reactant itself, the dilithium regulates the M/AM reaction in the warpcore, being degenerated into trilithium in the process. The 23rd century Federation was incapable of recrystallizing dilithium, and I don't know off the top of my head if the 24th century Federation could do that either.

The replicators are a tremendous advantage for Starfleet, since as long as power is maintained the crew can be sustained. Federation starships also seem to rely on a considerably greater degree of automation than their Wars counterparts. The badly damaged Enterprise was operable in combat and at warp with just 5 crewmembers in TSFS, while Voyager was operable with only Kim and the Doctor in ECH mode in "Workforce." Seven and the Doctor also crewed the ship alone for a month in "One." Granted, these were for short periods of time only, but Chakotay also said in "The 37s" that Voyager could operate with as little as half its crew count. We also saw in "Nightingale" that Voyager could perform extensive maintenance on itself that might otherwise be served by a starbase, all of which points to Federation starships being pretty self-sufficient, even with reduced crew counts and damage. All in all, I personally feel Federation starships would be able to perform more effectively on their own in the Star Wars galaxy than Wars vessels could in the Star Trek galaxy.

Cocytus wrote:The 23rd century Federation was incapable of recrystallizing dilithium, and I don't know off the top of my head if the 24th century Federation could do that either.

Well, in the TNG episode with Scotty in it, Geordi told Scotty that the crystals were now recrystalized in the Dilithium chambers continually, so they no longer had to be taken out to do so...

2046 wrote:True, the Geonosians engineered the Death Star, though we don't know the full details of that.

We don't, but we can consider that the minds are in the bugs, not in robots. However, it's when it comes to all those repair and maintainance duties that robots do a lot of work.
They have astromechs for this very reason. Even the rebels used a lot of them. Owen wanted droids to repair and take care of the hydrothings.
Anakin assembling a droid seems incredible: let's remember that the level of complexity of reassembly on protocol droids is near laughable, ergo the head swap on Geonosis, or how R2D2 quickly repairs the droid by shoe horning the head into the torso, nevermind the severed cables, and does a bit of quick punctual welding and voila.
The rebels still used a lot of droids, but that's largely possible to the fact that they needed a help due to limited resources.
Still, droids are everywhere, even in nurseries.

The thing is that as long as you have droids, in general, your ship is fine. When you don't, qualified engineers don't seem to so easy to find. That said, droids probably cost near to nothing.

The Kaminoans engineered the DNA of clonetroopers. There are engineers . . . but are they widespread, or ultra-specialists? Could it be that the society is largely . . . automatic?

I think they are specialists. They're identified as "cloners" I think, by Dex. Even more, they are isolated. Their knowledge is considerably limited to a given region of the galaxy, namely a single planet.

In other words, is the Empire a Pakled society with droid-slaves that make them strong and go?

Likely. Droids do a lot of things. They can work as waitresses, farmers, nannies, etc.

Some novel quotes:

"Either get the gravity generators calibrated or disable them altogether," he snarled at a blue-scanned image of a cringing Neimoidian engineer. "If this continues, you won't live long enough to be killed by the Republic."
"But, but, but sir-it's really up to the repair droids-"
"And because they are droids, it's useless to threaten them. So I am threatening you. Understand?"

- RotS Ch. 5

Actually, we can speculate that delegating too many tasks to droids could make engineers underqualified, or at least lacking experience.
Besides, yes, it does show that droids were extremely important to Neimoidians, which is not a surprise at all.

These suggest otherwise:

"Through a gap torn in the cloud by the curve of his cockpit, Obi-Wan could see R2-D2 grappling with a buzz droid hand-to-hand. Well: saw-arm-to-saw-arm. Even flying blind and nearly out of control through the middle of a space battle, Obi-Wan could not avoid a second of disbelief at the bewildering variety of auxiliary tools and aftermarket behaviors Anakin had tinkered onto his starfighter's astromech, even beyond the sophisticated upgrades performed by the Royal Engineers of Naboo. The little device was virtually a partner in its own right."
- RotS, Ch. 1

As I said, Anakin was the sort of genius. But it's all relative. Obi-Wan obviously knows jack, and any hotrod droid would be like... wow. Like people unable get rid of a popup and you come, do a few clicks and to them you're a genius.

Now, I can't recall if that's pure EU or not, but the Jedi could be specialists, at least, in building lightsabres.

"The Royal Engineers of Naboo's aftermarket wizardry made their modified R-units the most sought after in the galaxy; {...}"
- RotS, Ch. 6

On the same hand, despite the (awkward) inclusion of astromech slots in N-1, there are not many droids to be found in Theed. I know it probably was to put a contrast between the Trade Federation and Naboo, but you have it there.
What's impressive is that there is a high demand for those Naboo R-units, and yet there's hard to find even on Naboo. See the paradox.

Oh, talking about the Trade Federation, and recouping the quote read earlier on. They are over reliant on droids. Up to the point where they mass produce them and they're quite stupid as a whole. You've got a wealthy but still heavy bureaucracy which survives by numbers, numbers here being the droids.

The ability to make droids doesn't mean the droids won't be better then you.

Look at the super computer, Deep Blue.
Capable of beating a Master Chess player, yet built by guys who wouldn't last 3 minutes against the same player.
A Droid, just like a computer, is the sum parts of many different specializations.
Being able to build one doesn't mean you created its programming, invented new parts for it or redefined what was already existing.
The fact that there are many Protocol Droids just like 3PO means that the parts are already available.
Yes, Anakin is a genius, because I don't know many 6 year olds who are able to build a computer from available parts.
But from what we've seen, Droids do seem more competent then humanoids in SW...

The ability to make droids doesn't mean the droids won't be better then you.

Look at the super computer, Deep Blue.
Capable of beating a Master Chess player, yet built by guys who wouldn't last 3 minutes against the same player.
A Droid, just like a computer, is the sum parts of many different specializations.
Being able to build one doesn't mean you created its programming, invented new parts for it or redefined what was already existing.
The fact that there are many Protocol Droids just like 3PO means that the parts are already available.
Yes, Anakin is a genius, because I don't know many 6 year olds who are able to build a computer from available parts.
But from what we've seen, Droids do seem more competent then humanoids in SW...

Praeothmin wrote:

Roondar wrote:Well, Voyager is a rather exceptional case if you ask me.

Not to make Starfleet sound fragile of course, but I do seem to recall that the not even ten years old E-D needed quite specific maintenance to keep on flying (the infamous 'baryon sweep' episode).

Then again, it could be that this is a specific problem for the Galaxy Class, we've certainly never heard Janeway lament they didn't have access to their 'warpship flythrough wash' ;)

I don't think Voyager's an exception:
When have we ever heard of Baryonic sweeps for the E-E, or the Defiant, for example?
I think that the GCS were perhaps the only ones needing it, sporting new types of Warp Nacelles.
The newer nacelles on Voyager, the E-E, the Defiant could have been exempt of these sweeps.

I don't think any of those examples are indicative of anything, actually. We've barely seen anything of the E-E's adventures compared to the E-D's, and so a baryonic sweep could have been done for the E-E and we'd never notice. With the Defiant, it could have been done using DS9's own facilities since it is a very small ship in comparison to either a Sovereign or Galaxy. Another thing to consider for the Defiant and Baryonic sweeps; the Defiant did not show up until early in season 3, and was destroyed late in season 7. She was barely 5 years in operation when lost at the second battle of Chintoka.

The E-D, when she put in for a baryon sweep was nearly 7 years into her service life when her first sweep occured late TNG's 6th season. So the only real possible outlier is Voyager herself, and that can be explained away as Voyager not needing such a sweep until at least a comparable amount of time (7 years or so) before her baryon sweep. Even if the ship needed one before that time, we can also assume that one was done at a friendly alien port facility in trade for something.
-Mike

Praeothmin wrote:

Cocytus wrote:The 23rd century Federation was incapable of recrystallizing dilithium, and I don't know off the top of my head if the 24th century Federation could do that either.

Well, in the TNG episode with Scotty in it, Geordi told Scotty that the crystals were now recrystalized in the Dilithium chambers continually, so they no longer had to be taken out to do so...

That episode with Scotty is "Relics" from TNG's 6th season, by the way.
-Mike