Starfleet Jedi

As technologically advanced as the borg are they dont use hand weapons like phasers or any type of gun. and i know they adapt to energy quite fast so phasers would not be very effective to fight off, does that mean that if you had a thousand drones and a several hundred present day U.S. troops that the Borg would be defensless because the soldiers are using bullets not energy burst? if thats the case why doesnt the federation go back to the old ways when fighting borgs hand to hand. because Picard seems to kill the borg pretty easily with a tommy gun on the Holodeck in First Contact.

Bambi wrote:As technologically advanced as the borg are they dont use hand weapons like phasers or any type of gun.

I might be remembering wrong here. But didn't the borg drones have some form of energy beam weapons intergrated to them in one episode?

Bambi wrote:and i know they adapt to energy quite fast so phasers would not be very effective to fight off, does that mean that if you had a thousand drones and a several hundred present day U.S. troops that the Borg would be defensless because the soldiers are using bullets not energy burst? if thats the case why doesnt the federation go back to the old ways when fighting borgs hand to hand. because Picard seems to kill the borg pretty easily with a tommy gun on the Holodeck in First Contact.

Actually this is the source of much debate on other sites. The drones in FC did seem to be vulnerable to kinetic weaponry, as in blunt and bladed weapons. But it's also worth remembering that the Tommy Gun (and it's bullets) were holographic in nature, though the damage they did to drones were obviously kinetic in nature.

So do the drones have kinetic shielding? One had kinetic shielding, but he was also a drone built on superior tech. The Borg are also known to have kinetic forcefield tech, but weather they installed it into the drones. Who knows?

l33telboi wrote:I might be remembering wrong here. But didn't the borg drones have some form of energy beam weapons intergrated to them in one episode?

Yes. In "Descent" they were seen with Disruptor-like weapons attached to them (though when this episode first came out, many people simply assumed only these "rogue Borg had them"), and I believe they were seen in "Scorpion" and "Drone" as well.

If the Borg are vulnerable to modern firearms then it implies extreme incompetence and stupidity on the part of everyone who has fought the Borg. Also the Voyager crew, being in frequent conflict with the Borg, would have installed shotgun attachments on their phaser rifles.

On a partially related matter, aren't the Borg supposed to be incredibly strong? So hand-to-hand isn't a good idea.

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote: On a partially related matter, aren't the Borg supposed to be incredibly strong? So hand-to-hand isn't a good idea.

Most likely this is why only Worf and Data were ever seen trying it.

Well, Worf and Data are among the select few who have actually attempted it, and succeeded in hand-to-hand combat with Borg drones. Remember that the Borg collective philosopy does not allow much concern for the individual, so giving too much protection to a drone is a probably seen as an unnecessary waste of resources. Also, the goal for the Borg is to close up with you, hit you with the nanoprobe tubules, and thus assimilate you into the Collective.

Oh and another thing; if you watch ST:FC closely, you see that Picard had to empty the entire magazine drum out to take out just two Borg drones. It took longer and more bullets to kill the second drone than the first.
-Mike

Bambi wrote:does that mean that if you had a thousand drones and a several hundred present day U.S. troops that the Borg would be defensless because the soldiers are using bullets not energy burst?

That really depends on if you want to claim the trekverse is populated by idiots or not. We know they know all about primitve projectile weapons, Kirk even knew how to build a cannon from scratch, and of course the federation even built the TR-116( or someting like that) proving that even in the 24th century bullets still have a use. To me I would say either the borg have some sort of KE shielding or have the ability to employ it if the need is great enough.

AnonymousRedShirtEnsign wrote:On a partially related matter, aren't the Borg supposed to be incredibly strong?

I do remember Seven of Nine once bragging about how her muscles were technobabbledly enhanced. I can't remember the episdoe name, but it was the one where she was abducted into a gladator deathmatch game.

I do remember Seven of Nine once bragging about how her muscles were technobabbledly enhanced. I can't remember the episdoe name, but it was the one where she was abducted into a gladator deathmatch game.

The Episode was "Tsunkatse",where she had to take on The Rock as the toughest opponent in the ring. Harry Kim even said (although it was said in the same maner you would say "She's as fat as a whale") that The Rock's race were "stong enough to benchpress a shuttle", or something like that.

Seven of Nine seeme as strong as The Rock's character, and has been show many times to be as strong as Tuvok (in the Episode where they almost beat a pair of Hirogen).

And seing as how the Borg could immobilize crewmembers with only one hand while injecting the tubules with the other in ST:FC, I would guess they were pretty stong indeed.

I was actually thinking of Riker and other Enterprise-D bridge personnel being thrown around by the Borg. Also the fact that they are stronger than Worf and almost as strong as Data.

The KE shielding might be speed dependent. Broken structural parts and hand weapons and hitting with the butt of a rifle gets through (allowing computer interfacing, too, with hands or sockets/injection tubules), but something faster, like a bullet, even one slowed by a silencer, is picked up by the drone's generator, as a threat and activates the shield.

But, then that'd mean that they could block phaser beams, too, unless the speed factor is more for solid objects and not streams of particles.

I always figured their shields were limited. They could defend themselves against either kinetic weaponry or energy weaponry. Take the way they adapt to different frequencies for instance. If they had the power to protect against all frequencies at the same time, they would become immune to phaser fire and there would be no need to adapt.

They might have chosen to not go with everything to save on computer space and optimizing how much they've adapted to another's weapons for each situation. With untold trillions in your ranks, a few here and there lost isn't that big a deal, and especially when you can easily replace them with someone else by borgifying.

Edit: We do know that One seemed to have KE shielding, since one bounced off him when he went to the borg ship. And we know they have KE shielding on ships because Worf was blocked when they tried to get Picard back from them. So, of the handful of drones we've seen, the KE shielding could also be something that is also optimized for certain drones and not necessarily used by every one of them.

Also the fact that they are stronger than Worf and almost as strong as Data.

Well, they are quite weaker than Data. Remember when Data had the sudden burst of anger?
When he was on the holodeck, in order for the Borg to physically threathen him, he had to have the computer boost the Borg's strenght by 30% and eliminate the safety protocols. Even then, it only meant Data took about 5-10 seconds before he snapped his sneck like a twig.

I though Data was trying to recreate the incident with the Borg, but the computer wouldn't put the Borg at an accurate strength do to the safety protocols. Hence, raising the strength past the safety limits. Anyway, if Data was 2 or 3 times as strong as the Borg their really wouldn't have been a struggle as Data would have overpowered the Borg almost immediately. There is also the fact that Data considered his life in danger when he fought the Borg.

I wouldn't say that Data is 2 to 3 times the strenght of a Borg, but he is certaintly stronger, maybe 1.5 times stronger.
The first Borg he killed when in anger, he killed a lot easier then the one on the holodeck.
That is why I believe h had the Borg's strnght augmented beyond their normal strenght.
And strenght ins't the only reason why data would feel danger. The assimilation tubules, the strange scalpel like appendages on certain Borgs.
Many of those parts could pose a threat even to Data with a Borg's enhanced strenght.

But How strong are the Borg?
Good question, and your guess is as good as mine.
We know they are stronger than Worf, who, in a DS9 5th year episode (on Risa), lifted a 150 pound man with one arm by his shirt, over his shoulder, held him there for 2-3 seconds and threw him 10 feet in the air... still with one arm.
For those of you who do some weight lifting, you'll know how hard that can be.
Which, in my estimates, puts Worf above the "Wolrds' Strongest Men" participants in strenght, who are probably 4-5 times stronger than the average man.

Suffice to say, they are strong enough to be deadly, even with just their hands... :)