Starfleet Jedi

Everyone remeber how in Star Wars, the Jedi are constantly pushed up as being the good guys, the guys who always defended the weak and did everything that was nice? Who were wise beyond their years?

Well, I think that's a complete farce.

The Jedi have shown very little in the way of actually ever being good. In The Phantom Menace, they proved to do very little but sit on their asses while sending only two members into battle. Furthermore, they let them bring a child along with them. Remember that people; the Jedi, the protecters of the innocent and all that is good, brought a child with them into a combat zone. Okay, but perhaps this is just incompetency, but what about Tatooine? That area is a slave world, despite it being against Republic law to own slaves. And yet they do. Yet, even after they learn this and return to the Jedi Temple...they do nothing. Sure, let's let a tax dispute have us send a couple of Jedi to investigate, but when we learn of evil and horrors abound on another planet, we're just going to ignore it.

Okay, perhaps they were busy at the time. The conflict with the Trade Federation might esculate into a war that could harm the Republic...but what about afterwards? Why didn't the Jedi go to that planet and rid it of the Hutt menace or at least liberate the slaves? In fact, why did a Jedi, a government official, even have to make a bet with a slave owner? He's violating the fucking law. If he doesn't free them, kill the mother******. They do absolutely nothing to help those slaves out. Then again, perhaps this is also because said slaves also have enough free time to build pod racers, scanners, and droids, but that still doesn't change the fact that these people are violating the law by enforcing slavery.

And in what way are they wise? In Attack of the Clones, they uncover a conspiracy of a secret clone army that was ordered by a traitor and then hidden up by said traitor so that no one would know. So rather than dismantle the army or having the clones killed, they go ahead and decide to use them.

Okay, they also wanted to rescue their friends...but afterwards? No, they just let something go along, even despite the fact that they learned that the Senate was being controlled and that approving the use of clones was probably not a good thing for the Jedi if a Sith Lord was involved. And actually, isn't using clones to fight their battles for them hypocritical? As in, wouldn't that be like slavery? Are you really telling me that the great Republic can't form an army out of people who want their great nation not to be split apart?

In short, as per G-Canon (or even the new movie released by George Lucas), what has the Jedi ever done that was actually good? For the most part we hear how they only care about tax and border disputes...but never people in real peril, like the slaves of Tatooine. They just sit on their asses and do nothing while they let some asshole child grow more powerful, despite the fact that he murdered an entire village of people. Then again, I suppose no one might have told him about that fact.

So, are the Jedi protecters of the galaxy or just a farce?

Mith wrote:Everyone remeber how in Star Wars, the Jedi are constantly pushed up as being the good guys, the guys who always defended the weak and did everything that was nice? Who were wise beyond their years?

Well, I think that's a complete farce.

The Jedi have shown very little in the way of actually ever being good. In The Phantom Menace, they proved to do very little but sit on their asses while sending only two members into battle. Furthermore, they let them bring a child along with them. Remember that people; the Jedi, the protecters of the innocent and all that is good, brought a child with them into a combat zone. Okay, but perhaps this is just incompetency, but what about Tatooine? That area is a slave world, despite it being against Republic law to own slaves. And yet they do. Yet, even after they learn this and return to the Jedi Temple...they do nothing. Sure, let's let a tax dispute have us send a couple of Jedi to investigate, but when we learn of evil and horrors abound on another planet, we're just going to ignore it.

That's politics for you. Tatooine was in the hands of the Hutt. The Hutt are powerful.

Okay, perhaps they were busy at the time. The conflict with the Trade Federation might esculate into a war that could harm the Republic...but what about afterwards? Why didn't the Jedi go to that planet and rid it of the Hutt menace or at least liberate the slaves? In fact, why did a Jedi, a government official, even have to make a bet with a slave owner? He's violating the fucking law. If he doesn't free them, kill the mother******. They do absolutely nothing to help those slaves out. Then again, perhaps this is also because said slaves also have enough free time to build pod racers, scanners, and droids, but that still doesn't change the fact that these people are violating the law by enforcing slavery.

Tatooine was outside of republican regulation. You don't transport your laws to a country that is ruled by different laws.
Besides, after the war, the Empire was born, no Republic, no Jedi to kick the Hutt.

There were only 10,000 Jedi around TPM, not enough to wage a war.

And in what way are they wise? In Attack of the Clones, they uncover a conspiracy of a secret clone army that was ordered by a traitor and then hidden up by said traitor so that no one would know. So rather than dismantle the army or having the clones killed, they go ahead and decide to use them.

That's the tragedy, they couldn't do otherwise. The CIS was rolling out an army that would crush any attempted resistance. They were developping a great weapon.
Like it or not, the Jedi were not given any choice. Besides, they didn't have much influence on the senate, which passed the laws. The senate was largely corrupted.

Okay, they also wanted to rescue their friends...but afterwards? No, they just let something go along, even despite the fact that they learned that the Senate was being controlled and that approving the use of clones was probably not a good thing for the Jedi if a Sith Lord was involved.

Which they knew way too late.

And actually, isn't using clones to fight their battles for them hypocritical? As in, wouldn't that be like slavery? Are you really telling me that the great Republic can't form an army out of people who want their great nation not to be split apart?

Again, no choice.
If anything, what we may dislike in the Jedi is their contempt. They don't treat all individuals with the same level of respect. What Jar Jar at the beginning (doesn't Obi-Wan say "thing" or something?) or how the clones are mere units, only a few show real empathy.

In short, as per G-Canon (or even the new movie released by George Lucas), what has the Jedi ever done that was actually good? For the most part we hear how they only care about tax and border disputes...but never people in real peril, like the slaves of Tatooine. They just sit on their asses and do nothing while they let some asshole child grow more powerful, despite the fact that he murdered an entire village of people. Then again, I suppose no one might have told him about that fact.

So, are the Jedi protecters of the galaxy or just a farce?

Your arguments are actually weak. Where you could hate the Jedi is for not making an effort to convince Padmé from purchasing Anakin's mother. This was forced imho.




The real farce about the Jedi lies in their favorite weapon, the lightsabre. Supposedly a weapon for a civilized age, while blasters are crude and inaccurate. Well sorry lad, that's just bull, and blasters, oh my god, IMPERIAL blasters, have been shown to have a stun feature.

Lightsabres don't stun. The maim, that's all. If you faint, that's because of the pain or the shock.
The Jedi Order is part of a greek tragedy. Too stubborn and calcified in their beliefs, their lack of flexibility destroyed them. The point is, Anakin could have only been formed properly if Qui-Gon Jinn (best Jedi in all films) had survived.

It seems to me that before the fall of the Republic, the Jedi order is in decline. We know that they cannot access the Force as they once did from the conversation between Yoda and Windu. They may have once been the defenders of peace and justice, but the political climate and their waning influence over the Force have changed the order from what I think was intended to be a sort of check on the government and any other threat to peace and decency into a glorified police force.

Essentially every time we see the council, they are portrayed as stodgy and slow, unwilling to take risks. In a word, timid. They grew complacent and avoided conflict, instead just trying to maintain the status quo.

Tatooine is remote and unregulated. Certainly, a few capable Jedi could remove the crime bosses there and end slavery, but the second they turned their backs, a new boss would be in place. Possibly worse than the Hutts. Changing Tatooine would require decades, cooperation with other elements of the Republic's government. They would step on toes, challenge powerful political figures, and drain the funds of the government. Perhaps the Jedi council of ages past would have done it, but not the one we see.

Naboo, on the other hand, is civilized or influential enough to warrant some show of force. The Senate's reaction, or lack thereof, to the Trade Federation's occupation is a clear example of the profound corruption in the Republic at that time. I don't know much about intergalactic politics, but I'm pretty sure the US government would respond if Wal-Mart invaded Chicago.

I believe I mentioned once before that the Rebellion is really just after a re-establishment of the old, corrupt order. Preferable to the Empire? Probably. However, I've also complained that we don't actually learn what's so bad about living in the Empire for normal citizens. (Sorry for the anarchist aside)

I'm giving Lucas the benefit of the doubt here, because it makes sense to me. That was painful to say. The Jedi are an arm of the Republic's government, whether or not they are referred to as such. Widespread corruption has transformed them into a shadow of what they once were.

well, as far as Tatooine goes, it apparently isn't actually a part of the republic. so the Jedi wouldn't have jurisdiction, and the Hutts, according to the new clone wars movie have enough of a military force to keep it that way, this also applies to a significant chunk of space as well.

as far as the clones go, it seems they had a moment, of "gee that convenient, some one built us an army, just in time for this potentially devastating civil war" and didn't think it through beyond that. which is really stupid... but what ever, maybe they actually couldn't raise an army. it kind of seems like for the most part the proletariat, or for that matter most of the bourgeois, of the galaxy don't care about the government one way or another otherwise the separatists wouldn't really on a droid army... after all if your planet cares enough to rebel, it's people ought to care enough to provide a few good men. Which kind of fits in with the way the system seems to work, each planet has ALOT of autonomy, and it doles out internal sovereignty as it will, and then the rulership appoints a representative to the Galactic Senate. Given this kind of structure I'd wager that there's not a whole lot of interaction between the Republic and it's people, somewhat akin to the pre-civil war United States, but potentially much less so. Most people just don't have a stake in their Galactic government. It's like 2046 says, a galaxy of trillions of people, but there are really only about a dozen interesting ones. The rebellion is the only popular movement of any sort we've seen, it seemed to be generally limited in it's scope.

I think the key word that describes the Jedi is:
Arrogance!

The old order is so arrogant in any incarnation we've seen (movies, Kotor I and II, books) that they automatically believe that their view is always the best one, and that they cannot make mistakes.
They act as if they are the most important people in all the galaxy, that they are the most "special" because they feel the force, and not the rest of the galactic citizens.

They deal in absolutes which show how weak minded they are:
Emotions are bad, and the worst of it is love, because it automatically leads to the Dark Side.
What, because the council is so weak minded as to not be able to resist, every Jedi will also be weak?

The best depictions or Jedi weakneses, IMO, come from both the Kotor games, where you are shown that Jedi are not omnicient or omnipotent, and that they have weaknesses that can be exploited.
In other words, if you are a Jedi, take heed of these warnings, and keep in mind that having the Force is a great tool, but not the End-all Be-all it's been siad to be...

Mr. Oragahn wrote: That's politics for you. Tatooine was in the hands of the Hutt. The Hutt are powerful.

And yet, it is part of the Republic, which encompasses the galaxy. It was mentioned in the movie that it was Hutt space, but yet there was outrage at there being slaves; why would they be outraged if it wasn't against the law there? Clearly then, the Hutts are part of the Republic. Even if thsoe two Jedi could not have taken down the crime syndicate by themselves, a single slave owner should have easily caved to the demands of a Jedi Knight. And if the Jedi had executed him and demand the freedom of a few slaves, who would have cared? The big guys had no known connections and he was just a junkyard owner. This is even worse because it just proves how hypocritical the Jedi Order is. They complain about the ploticians in the Senate and yet they don't give a shit about people slaving over some god damn dirthole so long as a planet full of retards aren't subject to penalties because they didn't pay their fucking taxes.

In short, why didn't they use their authority to stop something that was illeagle?

Tatooine was outside of republican regulation. You don't transport your laws to a country that is ruled by different laws.
Besides, after the war, the Empire was born, no Republic, no Jedi to kick the Hutt.

There were only 10,000 Jedi around TPM, not enough to wage a war.

Again, wrong. The Hutt, as were the Trade Federation, part of the Republic. They are disobeying Galactic law. By that right, Qui-Gon had every right to demand that Anakin and his mother be set free.

That's the tragedy, they couldn't do otherwise. The CIS was rolling out an army that would crush any attempted resistance. They were developping a great weapon.

Those idiots? The ones who walk in single-file line and the intellect of a pair of marbles? And against what? Even if we argued that they had ten billion droid soldiers, they would have been horribly outnumbered against a few planets that decided to rise up against them. And if said natives had any idea of how to fight, invasion would be a laughable issue.

Like it or not, the Jedi were not given any choice. Besides, they didn't have much influence on the senate, which passed the laws. The senate was largely corrupted.

The army didn't belong to the Senate. It belonged to the Jedi Order. They made the order for the clones, paid for them, and they were given to the order. The Jedi Order had every right to deny the use of clones. So not only did they stupidly give away to people they didn't like (ie, politicians), but they also allowed the use of slavery.

Which they knew way too late.

No, no it wasn't. Furthermore, we don't even see this train of thought at all. The Jedi are shown to trust the clone troopers in many instances...why? At the very least they should have known that the clones could not be trusted.

Again, no choice.
If anything, what we may dislike in the Jedi is their contempt. They don't treat all individuals with the same level of respect. What Jar Jar at the beginning (doesn't Obi-Wan say "thing" or something?) or how the clones are mere units, only a few show real empathy.

Which just proves them to be arrogant and stupid.

Your arguments are actually weak. Where you could hate the Jedi is for not making an effort to convince Padmé from purchasing Anakin's mother. This was forced imho.

...How? The Jedi didn't do shit about slaves in Hutt space. The Hutt are violating Galactic law. They should have done something. They should have made an attempt to do something. And yet, it was all quietly dropped like no one gave a shit.

They didn't even bother going back for Anakin's mother in all the years since leaving her. How heartless are these bastards? At least some guy had the decency to buy her, marry her, and treat her well, which is alot more than the Jedi have ever done for any slaves.

Or should we recall the glorious territorial dispute?

The real farce about the Jedi lies in their favorite weapon, the lightsabre. Supposedly a weapon for a civilized age, while blasters are crude and inaccurate. Well sorry lad, that's just bull, and blasters, oh my god, IMPERIAL blasters, have been shown to have a stun feature.

Lightsabres don't stun. The maim, that's all. If you faint, that's because of the pain or the shock.
The Jedi Order is part of a greek tragedy. Too stubborn and calcified in their beliefs, their lack of flexibility destroyed them. The point is, Anakin could have only been formed properly if Qui-Gon Jinn (best Jedi in all films) had survived.

That's just adding to the already apparent farce. Of course that's a load. They're all just too hypocritical admit it. Too stupid to actually see past their own noses unless the force is there to hold their hands.

My God, they think love is something that they should avoid like the plague.

Mith wrote:And yet, it is part of the Republic, which encompasses the galaxy. It was mentioned in the movie that it was Hutt space, but yet there was outrage at there being slaves; why would they be outraged if it wasn't against the law there?

Because from where they come, the Republic core worlds, that behaviour is outrageous, and prohibited by anti-slavery laws.
The Republic cannot encompass the galaxy as many territories regions were still uncharted by the time of the Vong, if you consider the EU.
Speaking of which, it seems to pretend that Tatooine was technically part of the Republic, but the Republic had no interest in this planet and let it fall into criminal hands.
The films alone reveal none of this.
Maybe the books do.

The Hutt were a powerful cartel. Attacking them frontally would mean taking too much risks. The recent Clone Wars stuff clearly demonstrates the existence of that power (which probably grew during the war).

The Jedi obeyed the Republic, and the Republic didn't move a finger to dislodge the Hutt gangs. Despite how close to Naboo Tatooine was, Padmé knew near to nothing of this planet, especially not about the Hutts and the slaves.
Since the Republic was weak and corrupted, a slave to financial and industrial groups providing it resources and likely money, it could or rather would do nothing.

In this, the Jedi were just pawns from the get go, only to enforce Republic laws when suited and possible.

In a way, the presence of stormtroopers during the Empire era might have been seen as a slight relief, but nothing more than that. Slavery still existed, and it's possible that the imperial garrison wasn't that righteous in its ways either.

Those idiots? The ones who walk in single-file line and the intellect of a pair of marbles? And against what? Even if we argued that they had ten billion droid soldiers, they would have been horribly outnumbered against a few planets that decided to rise up against them. And if said natives had any idea of how to fight, invasion would be a laughable issue.

No planet had any sufficient army to fight off the CIS army. It's clear that without the clones, the CIS would have won.

The army didn't belong to the Senate. It belonged to the Jedi Order. They made the order for the clones, paid for them, and they were given to the order. The Jedi Order had every right to deny the use of clones. So not only did they stupidly give away to people they didn't like (ie, politicians), but they also allowed the use of slavery.

The clones belonged to the Republic, as Palpatine immediately assumed control of the Grand Army. The Jedi had no control on it simply because the Jedi NEVER asked for such an army. The funds, you don't have any proof that they came from Jedi's accounts. It was sort of blackmailed, but there was no official representative sent to Kamino.

No, no it wasn't. Furthermore, we don't even see this train of thought at all. The Jedi are shown to trust the clone troopers in many instances...why? At the very least they should have known that the clones could not be trusted.

They had no choice. By the time they learned about the clones, the CIS already had a vast army and a large fleet to spread into Republic territories.
The Jedi had no choice but to use the clones, maybe reluctantly.
I cannot understand how you argue against that, it's excruciatingly obvious in the film, it's the whole point. That war was staged, it's was set up. No one could stop it.

Which just proves them to be arrogant and stupid.

Some of them, maybe. Not all. It's more complicated that generalization.
Jocasta Nu was arrogant. Windu was arrogant. Yoda wasn't sure about the Order's ways, but still followed the rules.
One could dislike the Jedi for their hierarchical system and their undoubted servitude to the Force.

...How? The Jedi didn't do shit about slaves in Hutt space. The Hutt are violating Galactic law. They should have done something. They should have made an attempt to do something. And yet, it was all quietly dropped like no one gave a shit.

As we saw in TPM, Windu and Yoda answered to Valorum. They went to him to get the big directives.

They didn't even bother going back for Anakin's mother in all the years since leaving her. How heartless are these bastards? At least some guy had the decency to buy her, marry her, and treat her well, which is alot more than the Jedi have ever done for any slaves.

Heartless? They openly try to bury any emotion.
The bastard here is Padmé and the Republican leaders. The Jedi are just people whom you have pity for.

That's just adding to the already apparent farce. Of course that's a load. They're all just too hypocritical admit it. Too stupid to actually see past their own noses unless the force is there to hold their hands.

That said, we can understand why, by the rules of their rigid dogma, that they'd think about using technology to kill beings, refusing to use the Force to do so.

My God, they think love is something that they should avoid like the plague.

That's the problem of having people with supernatural powers. You'd rather try to make them emotionally stable as much as possible. But it's a double edged sword. They have to suppress feelings, which works if the pupils are indoctrinated early enough.

That said, if the Jedi had allowed Anakin to see Padmé, if she died, Anakin would have had much less reasons to hate the Jedi. Maybe he would have turned into psycho killer mode for a while, but his rage would have been targeted at those he'd have deemed directly responsible of this, likely the Hutt and the weak Republic, and the CIS. Palpatine's speech would have had much less effect on him, as the Jedi would have tried to understand him and they'd know how to deal with such problems.

The Jedi are just too afraid of seeing one of them committing crimes because of passion. Excepted for the occasional Jedi going darkside, I think they saw their system as rather good and consistent.

You can understand this. Imagine picking up the newspaper, necrology pages, and check for the passionate crimes, committed under rage, hatred and jealousy. If the Jedi were allowed to love to such an extent as ordinary people do, those crime rates would be part of their life... with the added supernatural powers.
Of course, the sad aspect of this, as far as their population is concerned, is that Force sensitive beings and being sterilized by dogma. Their numbers can only remain low and fail to grow beyond the exceptional mutation that occurs somewhere in space, where a family has one or more kids being Force sensitive out of the blue.

@Mr. Oragahn:

Out of the midi-chlorians you mean :P

CrippledVulture wrote: I'm pretty sure the US government would respond if Wal-Mart invaded Chicago.

I thought Walmart already had invaded Chicago, as well as other U.S. cities, and around the world, too. ;-)

CrippledVulture wrote: I believe I mentioned once before that the Rebellion is really just after a re-establishment of the old, corrupt order. Preferable to the Empire? Probably. However, I've also complained that we don't actually learn what's so bad about living in the Empire for normal citizens. (Sorry for the anarchist aside)

Unfortunately, at least as far as the OT movies are concerned, Star Wars, like Star Trek, does not delve to too much into what goes on in other parts of the civilized Galaxy outside of Podunk Tatooine, or undeveloped and often desolate planets, like Hoth or Endor. The PT only shows us the state of things towards the end of the Republic and certain key events of the Clone Wars.

Only in the ANH novelization, as well as various EU resources, is it established in detail what horrific crimes the Galactic Empire carried out on it's citizen's rights and freedoms. Alderaan's destruction by the Death Star being the only blatant and outright mass slaughter of billions of innocent sentients, along with mention of the dissolution of the Senate (no more representative democracy) are the only things specifically covered by the OT movies.

In the Biggs-Luke scene from the novelization (pages 21-22) as well as the deleted movie sequence, we learn the the Empire was taking over commerce slowly through the Empire, and was beginning to extend it's control even to the outlying systems. Biggs felt that it would only be a matter of time before Tatooine's populace would be "just tenants slaving for the greater glory of the Empire."

These high-canon level statements fly completely in the face of the militant Pro-Wars camp's assertion that the Empire was some sort of Capitalistic paradise.
-Mike

Exactly. It's Star Wars, people. The movies are about the struggle for good and right and everything fuzzy and warm. There is the implication that, at some point in the past, there was peace and stability. Things worked. But then the bad people came and the system that maintained peace and justice was corrupted. Only those brave few who believe in fighting against this evil (and survived the purge) remain to put things right. That's where the drama comes from.

Basically, what I'm saying is that, for purposes of storytelling, we never get to see the Jedi order at its best. All we get are the individuals who hold to their high ideals even when the whole galaxy goes mad.

I am inclined to enjoy the interpretation that the Jedi are just a bunch of nasty, jack-booted super-police. Unfortunately, I did not write Star Wars. Due to the circumstances of the films, it's unfair to judge the establishment itself too harshly. Maybe when the Republic is not being undermined by evil Sith and corporate interests the Jedi are everything they claim to be and maybe they're not. It seems like we are meant to believe that they are.

I thought Walmart already had invaded Chicago, as well as other U.S. cities, and around the world, too. ;-)

Holy crap! I figured it out. Dick Cheney is a Sith Lord!

Holy crap! I figured it out. Dick Cheney is a Sith Lord!

http://flectarn.deviantart.com/art/Dart ... n-91726429

I'm actually about half way through photoshoping Cheney in as sideous

Flectarn, you just made my whole week.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Because from where they come, the Republic core worlds, that behaviour is outrageous, and prohibited by anti-slavery laws.
The Republic cannot encompass the galaxy as many territories regions were still uncharted by the time of the Vong, if you consider the EU.
Speaking of which, it seems to pretend that Tatooine was technically part of the Republic, but the Republic had no interest in this planet and let it fall into criminal hands.
The films alone reveal none of this.
Maybe the books do.

I don't take EU. I really don't. It's canon status has been stated to be repeatedly be a different universe by Lucas himself so plainly that anyone but a warsie couldn't understand it.

The Hutt were a powerful cartel. Attacking them frontally would mean taking too much risks. The recent Clone Wars stuff clearly demonstrates the existence of that power (which probably grew during the war).

The Jedi obeyed the Republic, and the Republic didn't move a finger to dislodge the Hutt gangs. Despite how close to Naboo Tatooine was, Padmé knew near to nothing of this planet, especially not about the Hutts and the slaves.
Since the Republic was weak and corrupted, a slave to financial and industrial groups providing it resources and likely money, it could or rather would do nothing.

In this, the Jedi were just pawns from the get go, only to enforce Republic laws when suited and possible.

But that means that in fact, the Jedi are not the defenders of truth, justice, and all things fuzzy; they're just an overglorified police force with lightsabers stuck up their own asses.

No planet had any sufficient army to fight off the CIS army. It's clear that without the clones, the CIS would have won.

That's because everyone else appeared to be made of sheer idiocy incarnate. The fact that a planet cannot defend itself under any circumstance is downright horrific.

The clones belonged to the Republic, as Palpatine immediately assumed control of the Grand Army. The Jedi had no control on it simply because the Jedi NEVER asked for such an army. The funds, you don't have any proof that they came from Jedi's accounts. It was sort of blackmailed, but there was no official representative sent to Kamino.

I really don't see how. And yes, the Jedi did ask for the army. They officially placed the order in and it was stated to be the army for the Jedi. I can see there being a bit of a struggle between the senate and the Order about what to do with the army due to the fact that the Senate probably pays the bill, but it was officially property of the Jedi Order.

They had no choice. By the time they learned about the clones, the CIS already had a vast army and a large fleet to spread into Republic territories.
The Jedi had no choice but to use the clones, maybe reluctantly.
I cannot understand how you argue against that, it's excruciatingly obvious in the film, it's the whole point. That war was staged, it's was set up. No one could stop it.

Bull. We saw that planets at least have people who can use guns just as well as anyone else can (security/police officers on Naboo, wookies, and the like). Hell, even the Gungans had their own army that they could arm. In fact, they could have raised their own army, as it was being discussed before the Republic discovered the Clone Army. That means that basically the Republic was either too stupid or stuck in some kind of dipshit morality area where they wouldn't send their own people to fight their wars. Instead using slaves to do it for them.

Some of them, maybe. Not all. It's more complicated that generalization.
Jocasta Nu was arrogant. Windu was arrogant. Yoda wasn't sure about the Order's ways, but still followed the rules.
One could dislike the Jedi for their hierarchical system and their undoubted servitude to the Force.

And yet they proved themselves to be so foolish and blind that it was pathetic. Now granted, I agree that this couldn't have been the Jedi's highest moment. The fact that trade and tax disputes were the things they were sent to deal with is a simple fact that they were just a police force that was used to keep everyone in line.

As we saw in TPM, Windu and Yoda answered to Valorum. They went to him to get the big directives.

Granted.

Heartless? They openly try to bury any emotion.
The bastard here is Padmé and the Republican leaders. The Jedi are just people whom you have pity for.

Makes me almost laugh at the idea that the Chancellor *cough*pedophile*cough* was supposed to be Anakin's best buddy growing up and yet he did jack shit to get his mother back.

That's the problem of having people with supernatural powers. You'd rather try to make them emotionally stable as much as possible. But it's a double edged sword. They have to suppress feelings, which works if the pupils are indoctrinated early enough.

That said, if the Jedi had allowed Anakin to see Padmé, if she died, Anakin would have had much less reasons to hate the Jedi. Maybe he would have turned into psycho killer mode for a while, but his rage would have been targeted at those he'd have deemed directly responsible of this, likely the Hutt and the weak Republic, and the CIS. Palpatine's speech would have had much less effect on him, as the Jedi would have tried to understand him and they'd know how to deal with such problems.

The Jedi are just too afraid of seeing one of them committing crimes because of passion. Excepted for the occasional Jedi going darkside, I think they saw their system as rather good and consistent.

You can understand this. Imagine picking up the newspaper, necrology pages, and check for the passionate crimes, committed under rage, hatred and jealousy. If the Jedi were allowed to love to such an extent as ordinary people do, those crime rates would be part of their life... with the added supernatural powers.
Of course, the sad aspect of this, as far as their population is concerned, is that Force sensitive beings and being sterilized by dogma. Their numbers can only remain low and fail to grow beyond the exceptional mutation that occurs somewhere in space, where a family has one or more kids being Force sensitive out of the blue.

I disagree with this. Yes, one should be trained to control themselves; but that isn't what the Jedi do. They run and hide from their emotions. And I don't think it's because of crimes of passions. Most modern day soldiers could probably be just as dangerous to a normal human as a Jedi would be (save for the force powers), but they don't go around murdering people.

No, I think the Jedi Order is specifically designed the way it is to prevent the existence of a Sith Lord emerging once more. The Sith are shown to use their emotions to gain power, as oppossed to the more calm and logical apporoach of the Jedi Order. Naturally, the Sith would be more violant and prone to abusing their power (it seems that both ways are extremist in nature). Thus, having Jedi being drained of strong emotions seems like a tool used to keep Jedi under control and not as a means of keeping them safe.

Granted, I can see what you saying having benifits, but I think this more has to do with the fact that the Jedi don't want more Sith Lords popping up than simple crimes of passion.

Of course, they did a half-ass job with Anakin considering that he slaughtered an entire village of women and children for killing his mommy. Of course, perhaps they could have done something if Padme wasn't such a dunce.

Mith wrote:I don't take EU. I really don't. It's canon status has been stated to be repeatedly be a different universe by Lucas himself so plainly that anyone but a warsie couldn't understand it.

OK.

But that means that in fact, the Jedi are not the defenders of truth, justice, and all things fuzzy; they're just an overglorified police force with lightsabers stuck up their own asses.

Of course, at that time, the Jedi were certainly not at their height. But they were not going to attempt a coup and decide what to do while they were obediant to the Republic.

That's because everyone else appeared to be made of sheer idiocy incarnate. The fact that a planet cannot defend itself under any circumstance is downright horrific.

Yes, possible. On the same hand, there could be personnal armies, mercenaries and small tasks forces, plus those ships mentionned in TPM's novel. But it was a time of peace, which went on for apparently hundreds of years at the very least.
Logics of war and self defense disappear.

The clones belonged to the Republic, as Palpatine immediately assumed control of the Grand Army. The Jedi had no control on it simply because the Jedi NEVER asked for such an army. The funds, you don't have any proof that they came from Jedi's accounts. It was sort of blackmailed, but there was no official representative sent to Kamino.

I really don't see how. And yes, the Jedi did ask for the army. They officially placed the order in and it was stated to be the army for the Jedi. I can see there being a bit of a struggle between the senate and the Order about what to do with the army due to the fact that the Senate probably pays the bill, but it was officially property of the Jedi Order.

No, that's all wrong. Just watch the film, I'm not going to argue for you when you get your facts wrong. The Jedi Council knew shit about the order. It's pointless.

They had no choice. By the time they learned about the clones, the CIS already had a vast army and a large fleet to spread into Republic territories.
The Jedi had no choice but to use the clones, maybe reluctantly.
I cannot understand how you argue against that, it's excruciatingly obvious in the film, it's the whole point. That war was staged, it's was set up. No one could stop it.

Bull. We saw that planets at least have people who can use guns just as well as anyone else can (security/police officers on Naboo, wookies, and the like). Hell, even the Gungans had their own army that they could arm. In fact, they could have raised their own army, as it was being discussed before the Republic discovered the Clone Army. That means that basically the Republic was either too stupid or stuck in some kind of dipshit morality area where they wouldn't send their own people to fight their wars. Instead using slaves to do it for them.

You don't raise an army all out of the blue, especially when you don't have the industries for this, nor the mentality going on for that.
Yet, at some point, funds and politics may have been moved to produce such weapons, but again, realize that the war came out all of sudden.
The Clone Army came out of the blue, and the Republic assured the galaxy that the Grand Army was there to defend them. The republic probably had put enough taxes on most worlds to have them fund the Grand Army even more.

That said, some worlds did, over decades, build up defenses, as Alderaan. But that was way too late, by the time of the Empire.

Some of them, maybe. Not all. It's more complicated that generalization.
Jocasta Nu was arrogant. Windu was arrogant. Yoda wasn't sure about the Order's ways, but still followed the rules.
One could dislike the Jedi for their hierarchical system and their undoubted servitude to the Force.

And yet they proved themselves to be so foolish and blind that it was pathetic. Now granted, I agree that this couldn't have been the Jedi's highest moment. The fact that trade and tax disputes were the things they were sent to deal with is a simple fact that they were just a police force that was used to keep everyone in line.

So why the complain? We perfectly know, well I hope, that many Jedi had a romantized vision of their Order, probably based on tales of their Golden Age. Listen to Obi-Wan in the OT. He never disputes the Order's choices.

Heartless? They openly try to bury any emotion.
The bastard here is Padmé and the Republican leaders. The Jedi are just people whom you have pity for.

Makes me almost laugh at the idea that the Chancellor *cough*pedophile*cough* was supposed to be Anakin's best buddy growing up and yet he did jack shit to get his mother back.

Anakin was a twat, gullible enough to think that the Hutt were all too powerful?
That's a plot hole maybe? Anakin had a rage and hatred for the criminals and brutes of Tatooine.
However, this could be splintered with a simple idea: Anakin grew a hatred for the Order well before it became evident. To him, the responsible were the Jedi, forbidding him from renewing contacts with his mother.

But honestly, the best answer is that he was a major twat. He never asked Padmé anything about freeing his mother. It would have not been a problem to do that undercover. The only reason Padmé would refuse would be a question of principles, that if they started to do it for his mother, they'd do it for all of them, and these procedures would soon or later be revealed and tensions would rise between Tatooine and Naboo.

I disagree with this. Yes, one should be trained to control themselves; but that isn't what the Jedi do.

Wrong. It is what they do. They're trained to supress emotions, not to think by passionated motives.

They run and hide from their emotions. And I don't think it's because of crimes of passions. Most modern day soldiers could probably be just as dangerous to a normal human as a Jedi would be (save for the force powers), but they don't go around murdering people.

Most modern soldiers don't have access to a pool of power.
Power corrupts. Give people supernatural powers, you can be sure half of the planet will be in flames for the mere fact that some people want things to change and others thought they were doing what they did for good.

No, I think the Jedi Order is specifically designed the way it is to prevent the existence of a Sith Lord emerging once more.
The Sith are shown to use their emotions to gain power, as oppossed to the more calm and logical apporoach of the Jedi Order.
Naturally, the Sith would be more violant and prone to abusing their power (it seems that both ways are extremist in nature). Thus, having Jedi being drained of strong emotions seems like a tool used to keep Jedi under control and not as a means of keeping them safe.
Granted, I can see what you saying having benifits, but I think this more has to do with the fact that the Jedi don't want more Sith Lords popping up than simple crimes of passion.

You understand, of course, that from the Jedi point of view, a Sith Lord can only raise among the Jedi if one lets a Jedi be corrupted, both by powers and irrational thinking (passion), right?
It's their equation. Kill emotions and don't tap into that power too much and you don't become a Sith.
I won't argue that they literally became radical on this, but it worked for eons, and frankly, you wouldn't enjoy a Jedi having a temper, if emotions and passion were allowed.
Let's also consider that if Palpatine had not been lucky and wasn't such a fine politician, this crisis would have never seen the day and snowballed to those heights.

Of course, they did a half-ass job with Anakin considering that he slaughtered an entire village of women and children for killing his mommy. Of course, perhaps they could have done something if Padme wasn't such a dunce.

I never really gauged how well Yoda understood what Anakin did. He obviously felt the dark emotions, but how tuned the vision was?

More problematic was what the Jedi could with Anakin. From their perspective, they thought they badly needed Anakin as the saviour, so would tolerate mistakes.
They would not demod him or put him to exile, or not give him any important mission.
That's the tragedy, again. You pity the Jedi for what they put themselves into.

Mith wrote:Thus, having Jedi being drained of strong emotions seems like a tool used to keep Jedi under control and not as a means of keeping them safe.

It does seem to be fact and canon that strong emotions grant more control over the Force.
Mace Windu himself uses "Vaapad" style in combat, a style that uses emotions to fuel the Force and allow for more power in the Jedi.
So it does indeed look like a tool for control.

Oragahn wrote:No, that's all wrong. Just watch the film, I'm not going to argue for you when you get your facts wrong.

Nope, it's not completely wrong.
The order for the army itself came to the Kaminoans from Jedi Master (a council member, no less) Sifo Dias (as stated in the movie), who himself was said to be an old apprentice to Count Dooku, if memory serves.
So the Jedi order was in part involved in the Grand Army of the Republic's making...

They're trained to supress emotions

Which is, IMO, the worst possible way to deal with them.
Look at Vulcans in ST.
They also suppress all emotions, but when those emotions come up, for some reason, they are helpless before them, because they are not used to deal with them.
Jedi would have much greater control, and run less risks of falling to the darkside whenever they have a little "booboo" if they were used to dealing with emotions all the time...

Give people supernatural powers, you can be sure half of the planet will be in flames

I'd say it depends on the level of the powers, but power isn't just mystical.
Power comes under many guises, and not all the powerful people in the world are murderers, or cause murders and mayhem.