Starfleet Jedi

I was reading MA's protomatter page, and not knowing much about its presence in cannon, it appeared not to be so rare actually.

So, how can protomatter be used, can it easily amplify bomb yields, will it generate funky effects on its own, and are major factions capable of finding some?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I was reading MA's protomatter page, and not knowing much about its presence in cannon, it appeared not to be so rare actually.

It was probably rare in the 23rd century, probably only a few nebula or sources were found to have the stuff.

So, how can protomatter be used, can it easily amplify bomb yields, will it generate funky effects on its own, and are major factions capable of finding some?

Unknown. We know it is very unstable, but we have no idea if it can amplify a bomb. I doubt it can. That doesn't mean it isn't a massive bomb in its own right, but we have no evidence that it will amplify an explosion. Does it have strange side effects? God yes. It can be used to destroy stars or to even ignite one (figure that out). It can also be used to help terraform entire planets and is the basis of Federation terraforming technology. This suggests to me that protomatter itself isn't really a bomb (although it is unstable), but rather something that is good at altering the matter of everything it touches. This would be supported by Generations, Second Sight, and By Inferno's Light. It can also be used to overload a fusion reactor in the Maquis, but this is likely to be part of its ability to alter matter to a certain degree.

Early use of protomatter is often used by others to deem the science for the Federation a failure simply from the Genesis planet, but we saw that Genesis can easily work on much smaller terms and given the fact that Khan probably did something wrong and that the device was detonated on a ship within a nebula rather than its designed target (dead planet), it is understandable as to why it failed. My guess is that the UFP claimed it was a total failure for some time just to keep the Klingons off their backs about it while they worked to improve the science.

Mith wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I was reading MA's protomatter page, and not knowing much about its presence in cannon, it appeared not to be so rare actually.

It was probably rare in the 23rd century, probably only a few nebula or sources were found to have the stuff.

But some of these nebulas have been charted by the time of Voyager's end, right?

So, how can protomatter be used, can it easily amplify bomb yields, will it generate funky effects on its own, and are major factions capable of finding some?

Unknown. We know it is very unstable, but we have no idea if it can amplify a bomb. I doubt it can. That doesn't mean it isn't a massive bomb in its own right, but we have no evidence that it will amplify an explosion. Does it have strange side effects? God yes. It can be used to destroy stars or to even ignite one (figure that out). It can also be used to help terraform entire planets and is the basis of Federation terraforming technology. This suggests to me that protomatter itself isn't really a bomb (although it is unstable), but rather something that is good at altering the matter of everything it touches. This would be supported by Generations, Second Sight, and By Inferno's Light. It can also be used to overload a fusion reactor in the Maquis, but this is likely to be part of its ability to alter matter to a certain degree.

Early use of protomatter is often used by others to deem the science for the Federation a failure simply from the Genesis planet, but we saw that Genesis can easily work on much smaller terms and given the fact that Khan probably did something wrong and that the device was detonated on a ship within a nebula rather than its designed target (dead planet), it is understandable as to why it failed. My guess is that the UFP claimed it was a total failure for some time just to keep the Klingons off their backs about it while they worked to improve the science.

Could be, but the rather lack of glaring control of such a technology and presentation of what would be a fact is not fitting well with the idea that the UFP controls and refines the Genesis tech.

Wasn't the Genesis tech almost entirely lost btw?

Still, what about the protomatter stuff, could that be possible? Are there other canonically known matters which have typically "run over the land" associated effects?

Actually, protomatter appears to be part of the bomb that the Founder used to try and destroy the Bajoran sun. It is unsure if this is what Soran also used, but given the fact that the Romulans don't go around busting suns, is probably the secret ingredients. Interestingly enough, this confirms that the Federation knows how to make these weapons.

It just means they know, at best, the ingredients which are needed, right?
That's a far call from the final design.

Further investigation shows that the Genesis Project wasn't a complete failure, as later scientists such as Professor Gideon Seyetik terraformed several planets into paradise based on the technology of the Genesis project (it was mentioned by the writers that this was the case and the show said that the professor used protomatter to reignite a star at the end of the episode).

So the repeated terraforming of planets is only a writer's words, not put into firm canon concrete via dialog?

As for reigniting stars, something similar was achieved in Half a Life.
How can we be sure about the use of protomatter claim?

Given how the Federation seems to be able to have more of this stuff on hand, it would suggest that they could truly make a big bomb if they wanted to.

Federation or just a handful guys working secretly on their pet project?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:But some of these nebulas have been charted by the time of Voyager's end, right?

Given that the Federation uses protomatter for terraforming operations, I'd say so. Although they might have other ways of obtaining it.

Could be, but the rather lack of glaring control of such a technology and presentation of what would be a fact is not fitting well with the idea that the UFP controls and refines the Genesis tech.

Wasn't the Genesis tech almost entirely lost btw?

What? Why would it be? They still had the two head scientists who survived Khan's attack (and I think the others also survived), Starfleet probably had their own schematics, and they got a shit load of sensor readings (those guys can do anything with sensor readings it seems).

Sure Khan stole most of the equipment for the prototype, but that's it. They still had the bloody caverns that were a perfect paradise.

It just means they know, at best, the ingredients which are needed, right?
That's a far call from the final design.

Not really. First off, the Federation has advanced knowledge of protomatter and trilithium (ie, it can be made from dilithium). The other element is unknown to the audience, but Dax immediately knows what it's for.

So the repeated terraforming of planets is only a writer's words, not put into firm canon concrete via dialog?

As for reigniting stars, something similar was achieved in Half a Life.
How can we be sure about the use of protomatter claim?

I really hate it when I say it's supported by evidence and you just suddenly turn it around and say it was only claimed by a writer. Yes, it was mentioned in the episode. It was part of the plan to terraform a God-damn-star.

SEYETIK
(his favorite subject)
Basically... I'll use a remote-piloted
shuttlepod to deliver proto-matter
into the dead star, which'll start a
cascade effect transforming the star's
carbon and oxygen into elemental
hydrogen. Then we'll just stand
back and watch the fireworks.

In case you've forgotten, Professor Seyetik is a terraformer whose terrafromed one of the planet's that Sisko and Jake visited. Said planet also had a waterfall that was as high as Mt. Everest. That he made for shits and giggles.

Federation or just a handful guys working secretly on their pet project?

Given how everything here is public fact in the Second Sight, I would say the Federation.

Mith wrote: I really hate it when I say it's supported by evidence and you just suddenly turn it around and say it was only claimed by a writer. Yes, it was mentioned in the episode. It was part of the plan to terraform a God-damn-star.

SEYETIK
(his favorite subject)
Basically... I'll use a remote-piloted
shuttlepod to deliver proto-matter
into the dead star, which'll start a
cascade effect transforming the star's
carbon and oxygen into elemental
hydrogen. Then we'll just stand
back and watch the fireworks.

In case you've forgotten, Professor Seyetik is a terraformer whose terrafromed one of the planet's that Sisko and Jake visited. Said planet also had a waterfall that was as high as Mt. Everest. That he made for shits and giggles.

This is really interesting, I'd almost forgotten about this episode. I really wonder if the writer understands this bit of technobabble as it essentially suggests that protomatter can be used to reverse entropy in a system.
-Mike

Mith wrote: Given that the Federation uses protomatter for terraforming operations, I'd say so. Although they might have other ways of obtaining it.

That's from a quote that never appeared in any of the shows, right? You said it was a writer commentary of some kind. If so, it's not canon.

What? Why would it be? They still had the two head scientists who survived Khan's attack (and I think the others also survived), Starfleet probably had their own schematics, and they got a shit load of sensor readings (those guys can do anything with sensor readings it seems).

Fair.
That's enough opportunities to salvage or backup the data.

Sure Khan stole most of the equipment for the prototype, but that's it. They still had the bloody caverns that were a perfect paradise.

Caverns?
What's that?

Not really. First off, the Federation has advanced knowledge of protomatter and trilithium (ie, it can be made from dilithium). The other element is unknown to the audience, but Dax immediately knows what it's for.

Just as much as you know that if people put uranium in a bomb, it has nearly 99% changes of being a nuke. It does certainly mean you suddenly know how to make one, nor which isotopes to use if the matter is exotic.

I really hate it when I say it's supported by evidence and you just suddenly turn it around and say it was only claimed by a writer.

Read your words, that's what's to be understood; "it was mentionned by the writers" doesn't sound like it came through dialog in an episode, but more like a DVD commentary.

Yes, it was mentioned in the episode. It was part of the plan to terraform a God-damn-star.

SEYETIK
(his favorite subject)
Basically... I'll use a remote-piloted
shuttlepod to deliver proto-matter
into the dead star, which'll start a
cascade effect transforming the star's
carbon and oxygen into elemental
hydrogen. Then we'll just stand
back and watch the fireworks.

In case you've forgotten, Professor Seyetik is a terraformer whose terrafromed one of the planet's that Sisko and Jake visited. Said planet also had a waterfall that was as high as Mt. Everest. That he made for shits and giggles.

I don't watch Trek. I only check to see what's about protomatter these days.
Do we know how he terraformed these worlds?

Besides, he's dead. Any proof that he handled his studies? From what I gathered, up until his death, he seemed to be the one knowing how to deal with protomatter to reignite the star.

Given how everything here is public fact in the Second Sight, I would say the Federation.

People seem to only know the big lines, not the real scientific key factors which matter, nah?

Mith is referring to the Genesis Cavern located on planetoid Regula, which was used for Stage II of the Genesis Project. I believe Mith's idea is that the Genesis cave would still be there for Federation scientists to learn more about the Genesis wave maxtrix and how to recreate it, assuming that Dr. Carol Marcus for some reason never published her work, or would refuse to help in recreating everything that might have been lost in Khan's attack.
-Mike

Funnily, memory alpha's article about the Genesis device strongly asserts that the protomatter played a large role in Genesis' short lifespan.
Any stabilized terraformed place would therefore be the fruit of a project run without protomatter.

Protomatter's implication in the Genesis matrix instability is stated in the dialog from ST3: TFS. However, it does appear that on the relatively small scale of the Genesis Cave, the matrix appears to be fairly stable. So terraforming efforts could, in theory, be done using protomatter in a Genesis-type matrix, but it would probably have to be done in a patchwork manner over the surface of an already existing planet.
-Mike

Would protomatter be needed to bring life to small regions of previously hostile planets?
Gideon terraformed some places, but nowhere it's said how he did it, and it seems rather peculiar that scientists from the UFP could have access to shields, beam weapons, large cargos and synthetizers to craft small regions into paradises.
We don't know how long it took Seyetik to get the job done either.

Assuming we were talking about Professor Seyetik employing protomatter in a manner similar to the way it is in Marcus' Genesis Wave matrix, then it would be a huge advantage over more conventional seeding processes for terraforming. Why spend weeks or months terraforming a tens of square km wide area when instead you can do it about a day, and in the process get a fully complex ecological system to boot.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Assuming we were talking about Professor Seyetik employing protomatter in a manner similar to the way it is in Marcus' Genesis Wave matrix, then it would be a huge advantage over more conventional seeding processes for terraforming. Why spend weeks or months terraforming a tens of square km wide area when instead you can do it about a day, and in the process get a fully complex ecological system to boot.
-Mike

Why? Because you don't know how to use protomatter to do so. There doesn't seem to be a clear reference that he used protomatter for the terraforming, so thus far, his only protmatter related achievement is reigniting a star, and wasn't that theoretical stuff, dismissed by some characters at the beginning of the episode?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:That's from a quote that never appeared in any of the shows, right? You said it was a writer commentary of some kind. If so, it's not canon.

I was saying how it was mentioned by the author of the show and was supported in the show. In that show, the terraformer used protomatter to reignite a star and had used that technology to terraform other planets.

Caverns?
What's that?

Before the scientists moved onto creating an entire planet, they tested Genesis on the caverns of the planet in orbit. It was basically the Garden of Eden.

Just as much as you know that if people put uranium in a bomb, it has nearly 99% changes of being a nuke. It does certainly mean you suddenly know how to make one, nor which isotopes to use if the matter is exotic.

That's rather assumptious given that we have no idea how that stuff works. For all we know, simply adding the three together could create that; like matter and antimatter.

Read your words, that's what's to be understood; "it was mentionned by the writers" doesn't sound like it came through dialog in an episode, but more like a DVD commentary.

It was, but my point was how the show was a pointer to ST2 and ST3, I didn't soley base it on that comment. Don't you think it would be odd to have something be a tribute to something else, but not have any mention of it in said episode?

I don't watch Trek. I only check to see what's about protomatter these days.
Do we know how he terraformed these worlds?

Isn't stated specifically, but for terraforming the star, he went with protomatter, which suggests that's waht he's been using as it is the thing that can be used with terraforming stars and planets.

Besides, he's dead. Any proof that he handled his studies? From what I gathered, up until his death, he seemed to be the one knowing how to deal with protomatter to reignite the star.

So, you're suggesting that a scientist ready to perform suicide and wanted his success to live on would not write down anything about it (and he isn't selfish enough to keep it to himself, just in that episode he gave away his prized secret sauce for kicks), that Starfleet would let him borrow a Nebula class starship , and allow the use of protomatter, a highly dangerous substance on a star without any kind of back up of his claims? Besides that, we know that Dax was supposed to be working on it with him, one might hope that she would have an idea of what he was doing, given that she was a) the science officer and b) his assistant.

What you're claiming is basically that a scientists did not keep any records of his experiment. Why in God's name would any scientist worth their salt do that? Making notes and such is pretty much a given for all but the most incompetent amongst them.

People seem to only know the big lines, not the real scientific key factors which matter, nah?

I'm sorry, but what? Are you suggesting Starfleet has no idea how protomatter could be used for terraforming? Why would that even make any sense?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Funnily, memory alpha's article about the Genesis device strongly asserts that the protomatter played a large role in Genesis' short lifespan.
Any stabilized terraformed place would therefore be the fruit of a project run without protomatter.

And I assume the fact that the genesis thingy was not used as intended at all (i.e. in a funky-unstable nebula inside a warp powered starship leaking radioactive plasma instead of on a rock solid stable uninhabited planet) has no meaning for you (or memory alpha)?

We don't know for sure if the Genesis torpedo would have worked properly when used on it's intended targets. All we know is that it doesn't work too well when used in a completely different environment. On the other hand, the fact they got it right in that cave supports the idea that it would work properly if used properly.

Blindly assuming it wouldn't have worked is a tad unfair, given the circumstances.

We don't know how long it took Seyetik to get the job done either.

Well, given it is alleged in the episode he's done it quite a number of times I'm pretty certain it didn't take him decades to do so. He was not that old (I'd estimate him to be in his 50s) when we spotted him and he surely didn't start before his twenties.

Besides, if he didn't use protomatter but more conventional means for terraforming worlds doesn't that make the Federation scarily fast builders (as in having a downright huge capacity for industry) instead?

Why? Because you don't know how to use protomatter to do so. There doesn't seem to be a clear reference that he used protomatter for the terraforming, so thus far, his only protmatter related achievement is reigniting a star, and wasn't that theoretical stuff, dismissed by some characters at the beginning of the episode?

True enough, but he did prove them completely, utterly and totally wrong. His device worked, he did reignite a big chunk of dead-looking stuff (the VFX made it look like a huge stone planet so I doubt there was any activity left there) into a yellow looking sun-like star. In a few seconds.

And the good part (for the Federation) is that unlike the Genesis example this time the records where not erased from existence by some mad guy and the guy was in the Federations employ, so the logical conclusion now is that they -at least- still have the plans for his device for future use.

Eat that, entropy :P

Roondar wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Funnily, memory alpha's article about the Genesis device strongly asserts that the protomatter played a large role in Genesis' short lifespan.
Any stabilized terraformed place would therefore be the fruit of a project run without protomatter.

And I assume the fact that the genesis thingy was not used as intended at all (i.e. in a funky-unstable nebula inside a warp powered starship leaking radioactive plasma instead of on a rock solid stable uninhabited planet) has no meaning for you (or memory alpha)?

I consider that the guys who put the MA article would have not allowed this reflexion if it didn't have merit whatsoever.

We don't know for sure if the Genesis torpedo would have worked properly when used on it's intended targets. All we know is that it doesn't work too well when used in a completely different environment. On the other hand, the fact they got it right in that cave supports the idea that it would work properly if used properly.

The suggestion being that it may be a matter of scale. Working on a cave is good. Working on the surface of a planet, and eventually heating up the core somehow may work but we don't know. However, assembling a planet out of the blue didn't.

Blindly assuming it wouldn't have worked is a tad unfair, given the circumstances.

If you consider that the ramblings at MA are baseless, no problem. I'm working from second hand info y'know

Well, given it is alleged in the episode he's done it quite a number of times I'm pretty certain it didn't take him decades to do so.

Why not? He's credited for two worlds, no? I don't have the details, but do we even have proof he terraformed entire planets each time?

He was not that old (I'd estimate him to be in his 50s) when we spotted him and he surely didn't start before his twenties.

He was more than likely within his late 50s and entering the 60s, notably considering the logical increase of life quality.

Besides, if he didn't use protomatter but more conventional means for terraforming worlds doesn't that make the Federation scarily fast builders (as in having a downright huge capacity for industry) instead?

Without the details, we can't tell. He may have started multiple projects which would take years to do so. He may have put machines doing the terraforming for him over one or two decades.
Trek is riff with stuff that revitalizes planets without going into the lands of protomatter.
I don't put it beyond the UFP to heal worlds. They have all sorts of radiation guns, shields they could patch together, robots doing stuff for them, gases that spread at super speed and affect an ecosphere, etc.

True enough, but he did prove them completely, utterly and totally wrong. His device worked, he did reignite a big chunk of dead-looking stuff (the VFX made it look like a huge stone planet so I doubt there was any activity left there) into a yellow looking sun-like star. In a few seconds.

I don't deny the achievement. It's even possible that the instability of protomatter helps reignite stars, but the sheer mass prevents it from being scattered, thus turning it into a giant fusion ball again.

And the good part (for the Federation) is that unlike the Genesis example this time the records where not erased from existence by some mad guy and the guy was in the Federations employ, so the logical conclusion now is that they -at least- still have the plans for his device for future use.

I suppose this seems reasonnable. The man killed himself, but he didn't destroy his lab. That said, whatever he knew and didn't write down is definitely lost. Depending on how Seyetik managed his data, this can swing both ways, while likely putting the basics "on paper", at least.