The Borg vs the Daleks

[Narsil]

One Borg cube, with somewhere around eight thousand drones, has just been hit by a wave of temporal energy that has sent it through time and space and landed it in the Star Wars galaxy. At the same time this happens, a Dalek Time Travel pod, as seen in the Chase, containing eighty Daleks of Time War calibre (i.e.: full shields, flight, 'effectors' and weaponry), has just materialised inside the cube...

The Daleks see the Borg inferiority and decide (as they always do) to 'exterminate' the Borg...

The Borg see the Dalek technology and decide (as they always do) to 'assimilate' the Daleks...

Who wins?

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

The only cube crew count that I am familiar with is 60,000+ which actually seems ridiculously low given what we've seen of cube interiors. So since maybe the ships aren't actually fighting it could be a cube, as the 8,000 figure makes sense for that vessel.

Also how are the Daleks? Unless they are strong enough to rip bulkheads apart with their hands I don't see them winning this.

[GStone]

Weren't the daleks beaten back for a time by robots from Earth that didn't have any special powers when they were chasing the Doctor through a theme park in the '90s?

[Mike DiCenso]

I don't know about that one, but I do remember the episode "The Destiny of the Daleks" [Tom Baker Doctor], the Movellans (a humanoid race of androids), had held the Daleks in check for centuries, since both sides relied on pure logic in their battle planning, always winding up at a stalemate without ever firing a shot between their battlefleets.
-Mike

[Narsil]

Weren't the daleks beaten back for a time by robots from Earth that didn't have any special powers when they were chasing the Doctor through a theme park in the '90s?

Older, less powerful Daleks. It's like using Nelson's HMS Victory as a benchmark for the modern HMS Daring as a comparison. Perhaps much, much bigger a difference, since those Daleks were the second-weakest variant portrayed.

The Daleks in Time War Era (as seen in the 2005-2006 series) can fly by some sort of antigravity (All current appearances), read minds through those plunger things (Doomsday), blow holes in reinforced concrete ceilings (Dalek), contain as much power as is necessary to power the entire East Coast of the USA (Dalek), fly through space (Parting of the Ways), control most of Earth's electronics remotely (Army of Ghosts, Doomsday), the black-painted ones contain the ability to undergo an emergency temporal shift (Doomsday) and they are also pretty much immune to weaponfire which is strong enough to blow a typical four-doored car into pieces (Doomsday). They have also got the ability to absorb 'temporal radiation' upon encountering it, which is an ambient background quality caused by time travel, and use it as an emergency source of power.

Also how are the Daleks? Unless they are strong enough to rip bulkheads apart with their hands I don't see them winning this.

They're powerful enough to blast them apart... if that counts. They don't even have hands in any sense. Neither by their organic or technological components; they are tentacled cyborg mutants inside tank-like suits of armour which resemble pepperpots. And at the end of it all... the Daleks are extremely smart; they threatened the time war.

The Borg could, possibly, take this by sheer numbers, if they perhaps switch to energy weapons rather than assimilation tubes. It's a hundred-to-one advantage, but the Daleks are known for being capable of turning it around via sheer strategy and firepower alone.

So since maybe the ships aren't actually fighting

I wouldn't ask anything with any Trek ship vs any Who ship... it simply does not need to be asked, at all. Lower-level Daleks, in a tiny courier ship, had weapons that could 'crack Earth open like an egg'.

[GStone]

I've seen some of the older Who eps, but I never saw any of the ones with the Daleks. I'm just wondering about how effective their shields were in The Chase compared to their use in the new series. The Doctor thought heavy concentrations of bullets might help punch your way through a shield with enough energy to melt metal last season. Now, it might have some usefulness against the interiors of a borg cube, but we don't know how tough that sutff is. Flying Dalek/borg speeds seem to be relatively similar in enclosed spaces, like in buildings.

We know they have brute force stopping force fields inside cubes and a Dalek's beam weapon may or may not be random frequency based (I thinking of a comparisson to how photorps are a mish mash of different ones because of the m/am interactions). It's an energy weapon they've never come across before, so they'd probably kill several borg, but I don't know how long that will happen. They could fly and blast borg, but they might get blocked by brute force force fields, if they have the emitters in many places. But, we've never known what the limit of brute force, adapated frequencies a single drone can take before shield failure. So, it's kinda iffy.

I'm also not sure how well Dalek computers can get around security systems or how they do it. If all else fails, they can use the transporter. They used it when they kidnapped Picard to make him Locutus.

The Borg could, possibly, take this by sheer numbers, if they perhaps switch to energy weapons rather than assimilation tubes.

I think they had used plasma weapons during Scorpian in VOY, but I don't know how powerful they were.

[Mike DiCenso]

Narsil wrote:

The Daleks in Time War Era (as seen in the 2005-2006 series) can fly by some sort of antigravity (All current appearances), read minds through those plunger things (Doomsday), blow holes in reinforced concrete ceilings (Dalek), contain as much power as is necessary to power the entire East Coast of the USA (Dalek), fly through space (Parting of the Ways), control most of Earth's electronics remotely (Army of Ghosts, Doomsday), the black-painted ones contain the ability to undergo an emergency temporal shift (Doomsday) and they are also pretty much immune to weaponfire which is strong enough to blow a typical four-doored car into pieces (Doomsday). They have also got the ability to absorb 'temporal radiation' upon encountering it, which is an ambient background quality caused by time travel, and use it as an emergency source of power.

Just a correction on the "Dalek" power reference; in the episode the dalek in question there only drained away 7 states worth of power, or no more than 140 GWs, not the entire Eastern Seaboard's worth.

7 of 9 states in "Revulsion" that her arm's exoskeleton can withstand 5 million GWs (it is uncertain if that was still true in her more human condition, or if she was merely trying to placate Ensign Kim).

Taking over Earth in "Doomsday" is kinda irrelevant (no pun intended) since it is a parallel Earth not too much more advanced than what we have now. I don't see how it applies to fighting the Borg, who have proven capable at times of taking over entire starships with a single drone.

They're powerful enough to blast them apart... if that counts. They don't even have hands in any sense. Neither by their organic or technological components; they are tentacled cyborg mutants inside tank-like suits of armour which resemble pepperpots. And at the end of it all... the Daleks are extremely smart; they threatened the time war.

The Borg could, possibly, take this by sheer numbers, if they perhaps switch to energy weapons rather than assimilation tubes. It's a hundred-to-one advantage, but the Daleks are known for being capable of turning it around via sheer strategy and firepower alone.

The EMH stated in "Scorpion, Part I" [VOY3] that the Borg nanoprobe tubules could go through any known shield or alloy. It is possible that the tubules can go through Dalek forcefields and armor, too. And all the Borg need is one or two Daleks for assimilation and adaptation.

In ST:FC, we've seen the Borg batter their way through the E-E's Sickbay doors.

Narsil wrote:

I wouldn't ask anything with any Trek ship vs any Who ship... it simply does not need to be asked, at all. Lower-level Daleks, in a tiny courier ship, had weapons that could 'crack Earth open like an egg'.

The Federation of the 29th century had a fighter-sized timeship which by accident could wipe out the entire Sol system [VOY: "Future's End, Part I & II]. If this becomes an all-out temporal war, then who knows what the hell may get tossed into the mix.
-Mike

[Narsil]

The Doctor thought heavy concentrations of bullets might help punch your way through a shield with enough energy to melt metal last season.

However, this weakness was absent at the time of Doomsday. Not a single one of the four Daleks featured was even remotely harmed by the weapons used; except for specifically modified ones, and that was just a case of adapting and regenerating damaged components. Not a single Dalek recieved permanent damage in Doomsday; they were put into some kind of permanent imprisonment.

Flying Dalek/borg speeds seem to be relatively similar in enclosed spaces, like in buildings.

Daleks in Doomsday had outside flight speeds that were at least as fast as most early twentieth century planes, they could attack from space similarly in The Parting of the Ways.

We know they have brute force stopping force fields inside cubes and a Dalek's beam weapon may or may not be random frequency based (I thinking of a comparisson to how photorps are a mish mash of different ones because of the m/am interactions).

Dalek energy weapons are known to conduct through metal in at least some fashion, as seen in Doomsday when the Cybermen were effortlessly killed by the weapons.

I'm also not sure how well Dalek computers can get around security systems or how they do it. If all else fails, they can use the transporter.

In Doomsday, Daleks managed to electronically lock a door from across the room. It wasn't their door, either, it was a door belonging to the Torchwood Institute, a highly advanced organisation which had huge advances in technological capacity over the rest of the world.

As for transporters, the Daleks do have their own equivalent called a 'transmat', which ignores shields completely. It might work on a similar process to TARDIS dematerialisation.

[GStone]

However, this weakness was absent at the time of Doomsday. Not a single one of the four Daleks featured was even remotely harmed by the weapons used

Neither time of bullet usage showed any appreciable attempt at getting through the shields. My point was that with whatever the shields were made of or how they worked, there is a chance they could do something to borg armor/ship interior stuff.

The new series shows that the items melt completely away, whether the shields are made of just heat or if it's a kind of invisible energy localized in a specific space or whatever.

Daleks in Doomsday had outside flight speeds that were at least as fast as most early twentieth century planes, they could attack from space similarly in The Parting of the Ways.

But, you said they showed up on the inside. Going around at fighter plane speed inside a ship may not be the best course of action, unless they keep themselves to just the really open spaces in the center of the cubes.

In Doomsday, Daleks managed to electronically lock a door from across the room. It wasn't their door, either, it was a door belonging to the Torchwood Institute, a highly advanced organisation which had huge advances in technological capacity over the rest of the world.

I think we could say the borg's security systems may be more advanced then Torchwood's, but I can't be totally sure. I don't know how extensive it is or how much is Earth based and how much isn't.

[Narsil]

Neither time of bullet usage showed any appreciable attempt at getting through the shields. My point was that with whatever the shields were made of or how they worked, there is a chance they could do something to borg armor/ship interior stuff.

Probably, used as a tunnelling device to get through walls and the like. They could also use telekinetic power in some cases; it depends entirely on the Dalek in question as telekinetic powers are actually what provides most of their movement. (Death to the Daleks)

The new series shows that the items melt completely away, whether the shields are made of just heat or if it's a kind of invisible energy localized in a specific space or whatever.

The shields are shown to be invisible energy that covers the whole casing when they are fired upon by energy bolts in Doomsday:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... daywho.jpg

As you can see, no damage, and the shield takes on the temporary colour of the energy weapon. Bullets and physical attacks do nothing visible, and Dalek casings beneath the shields are bulletproof, and possibly resistant to quite a few explosives (although being launched into the surface of Earth at quite a fast velocity from outside orbit is shown to be capable of damaging one... but not actually killing one).

But, you said they showed up on the inside. Going around at fighter plane speed inside a ship may not be the best course of action, unless they keep themselves to just the really open spaces in the center of the cubes.

My point was that they would probably have more speed in straight-lines than the Borg. Turning wise... maybe not so much. But I suppose the ability to fly is a point to mobility in itself. Doctor Who doesn't half uprate its forces...

I think we could say the borg's security systems may be more advanced then Torchwood's, but I can't be totally sure. I don't know how extensive it is or how much is Earth based and how much isn't.

The more advanced sensor systems in place were capable of 'reading the heat off of a single protozoa through half a mile of steel'. The security systems were enough that noone actually knew what Torchwood was, despite having a very public building... the London Institute was based in the Canary Wharf building.

Oh, and on the power of Dalek weapons; it's one of the few things that a Timelord just cannot survive. The Doctor has never been forced into any regeneration by a Dalek energy weapon, because if they had actually managed to hit him; he'd have been instantly killed, it's just that he hasn't been hit yet (not actually a flaw of the Daleks, but rather the fact that he is the Doctor... they don't call him 'The Oncoming Storm' for nothing).

The Borg have one chance at any sort of victory, after thinking about it, and that's to actually autodestruct the ship and take the Daleks down with them...

You see... the Daleks don't just kill you, and they don't stop at your family either; they kill everything.

[GStone]

The more advanced sensor systems in place were capable of 'reading the heat off of a single protozoa through half a mile of steel'.

Small scale thermal detection at a great distance and through a tough substance. Okay. Are there other examples of sensor things done?

The security systems were enough that noone actually knew what Torchwood was, despite having a very public building... the London Institute was based in the Canary Wharf building.

Impressive. It could be based on anything from magnetizing door locks requiring a randomly changing energy pulse code to even DNA sensors. Any idea if they are terrestrial or alien in origin?

The Borg have one chance at any sort of victory, after thinking about it, and that's to actually autodestruct the ship and take the Daleks down with them...

I think that might be a bit premature. There's still how much punishment an adapted to or even brute force absorbing force field not on a drone, but is a part of the cube can take before failure. How a Dalek's shield operates would determine how well borg force fields could stand up to it.

If Dalek shields take on the color of energy blasts it takes, it could be anything from diffusing the blast over smaller areas to weaken the stress level on any one part (how both Trek and Wars shields operate) or it could even hold the energy temporarily till it is absorbed, so it can be used to power a generator to create a stronger shield (think something along the lines the Ori soldiers of Stargate probably use for their ships and beachheads). If it's a single function field, it probably is something like a dispersion field the attacks the weak bonds of materials, which might 'cut' through any 'attraction' bonds that may creep up from similar energy particles in close distance from each other. There would also be the question of how well a Dalek shield would hold up against a continuum distortion, which borg shields are.

[Narsil]

Small scale thermal detection at a great distance and through a tough substance. Okay. Are there other examples of sensor things done?

Not really, the London branch has only really 'appeared' in one two-parter episode. The relevance was that they couldn't detect the voidsphere; it didn't exist on radar, sensors, it had no weight, no heat signature and via all measures; shouldn't have existed. But it was a floating blackbody sphere in the middle of a central room that they couldn't figure out. It turned out to be a 'Voidship', containing several Daleks.

Impressive. It could be based on anything from magnetizing door locks requiring a randomly changing energy pulse code to even DNA sensors. Any idea if they are terrestrial or alien in origin?

They seemed to work on a cardreading method, so it was probably Earth-bound, but as most of their technology was more sophisticated than most of Earth's as a rule. Torchwood's Cardiff branch was capable of hacking a file on a modern computer while it was still being edited and remained completely unsaved in "Everything Changes"

I think that might be a bit premature. There's still how much punishment an adapted to or even brute force absorbing force field not on a drone, but is a part of the cube can take before failure. How a Dalek's shield operates would determine how well borg force fields could stand up to it.

Dalek shields should be capable of operating on at least some kind of temporal basis. The Timelords are fond of time-based hand-weaponry, and the Daleks very nearly won the Timewar before the Doctor stepped into the fray and turned it into a MAD scenario. The Borg internal ship force-fields might also be taken down by Dalek energy-draining capacity, which nearly managed to cripple the west coast of the United States of America.

As for Dalek shields, I think they work on a Culturesque Trapdoor type ability, there was nothing remaining of the bullets, melted or otherwise; it was just a 'magical disappearance' shield. However, the anti energy-weapon shields may work on an energy-absorbing capacity, since the Daleks have been known in at least two earlier locations in the 2005-2006 series alone to use energy-absorbing techniques.

Dalek, when the Dalek absorbed the temporal radiation from Rose Tyler and used it to partially repair itself.

Again in Dalek, when the Dalek drained the west coast of the United States.

[GStone]

Not really, the London branch has only really 'appeared' in one two-parter episode. The relevance was that they couldn't detect the voidsphere; it didn't exist on radar, sensors, it had no weight, no heat signature and via all measures; shouldn't have existed. But it was a floating blackbody sphere in the middle of a central room that they couldn't figure out. It turned out to be a 'Voidship', containing several Daleks.

So, was the voidsphere just an area of space that was void of everything or was it a solid that was hard to detect with sensors?

They seemed to work on a cardreading method, so it was probably Earth-bound, but as most of their technology was more sophisticated than most of Earth's as a rule. Torchwood's Cardiff branch was capable of hacking a file on a modern computer while it was still being edited and remained completely unsaved in "Everything Changes"

That wouldn't entirely be out of the realm of real life possibility, since there are software programs that companies can put into their computers to track what their employees are doing on them and remote access to computers that's wireless exists.

Dalek shields should be capable of operating on at least some kind of temporal basis. The Timelords are fond of time-based hand-weaponry, and the Daleks very nearly won the Timewar before the Doctor stepped into the fray and turned it into a MAD scenario.

Well, a temporal shift based shield could explain the melting effect. The item gets ripped apart and separates and it just appears to melt. The borg do know and have reliable time travel technology, whch would have to include good temporal sensors, given when they went to in FC.

Can individual Daleks travel through time without a time pod?

The Borg internal ship force-fields might also be taken down by Dalek energy-draining capacity, which nearly managed to cripple the west coast of the United States of America.

Is their energy draining abilities limited to just electricity and temporal energy or are they more free range? Since we don't know how much power a cube could put out, they could try overloading each Dalek's absorption abilities, but I can't be sure.

As for Dalek shields, I think they work on a Culturesque Trapdoor type ability, there was nothing remaining of the bullets, melted or otherwise; it was just a 'magical disappearance' shield. However, the anti energy-weapon shields may work on an energy-absorbing capacity, since the Daleks have been known in at least two earlier locations in the 2005-2006 series alone to use energy-absorbing techniques.

The borg have also shown shield energy draining abilities, too, for ships, but I don't know if they can project it inside a cube. We also know that they can open up singularities that lead into parallel realities, but we don't know how small they could make them or even if they could do it on the inside of a cube.

[Narsil]

So, was the voidsphere just an area of space that was void of everything or was it a solid that was hard to detect with sensors?

It basically "didn't exist by any form of logic; but there it was". It was just visibly there, but scientifically wasn't. The Doctor himself confirmed that it shouldn't have existed; and that it was theoretically impossible.

Dalek-made, so it's likely to actually be impossible, but we all know what the Dalek reply to impossible is... "Oh fuck that, I don't believe in impossible"

That wouldn't entirely be out of the realm of real life possibility, since there are software programs that companies can put into their computers to track what their employees are doing on them and remote access to computers that's wireless exists.

A woman was typing on an unsaved file; and then someone deleted everything she had written, because it had contained classified information. (This is after giving her amnesia pills that would essentially erase her memory of Torchwood during her sleep; pretty nifty invention)

The borg do know and have reliable time travel technology, whch would have to include good temporal sensors, given when they went to in FC.

But not as good as the Daleks ;)

The Daleks have similar level to the Timelords when it comes to temporal technology, and they don't suffer from massive shipboard malfunctions (like in FC) when time travel is invoked. But this is basically because to serve as a longtime enemy of the Doctor and remain at full strength, you must at least have some form of time travel capability.

Can individual Daleks travel through time without a time pod?

Black Daleks can, and perhaps the other Daleks that were in the Cult of Skaro can as well. The Black Dalek used an "Emergency Temporal Shift" (which could mean that it was just a random burst of temporal travel that ended up dumping it in a dustbin some five years ago; or that normal controlled travel would require some warmup time.)

Is their energy draining abilities limited to just electricity and temporal energy or are they more free range? Since we don't know how much power a cube could put out, they could try overloading each Dalek's absorption abilities, but I can't be sure.

Well they were considered a threat to the Timelords, so they could possibly have extended it to whatever the Timelords used for energy in the midst of electricity. I would say that a cube wouldn't exactly overload a Dalek if they had some measure of just pumping it back out into the air again, though. Maybe "absorb and fire gun" repeatedly in various sections.

The borg have also shown shield energy draining abilities, too, for ships, but I don't know if they can project it inside a cube.

Or even if Dalek shields are advanced enough to ignore it. In ship-to-ship combat, it probably wouldn't be a question worth answering since Dalek ships are comparable on at least some level to Death Stars, but faster, probably stronger and smaller. They did perform a 'base-delta-zero' of Earth during Parting of the Ways.

We also know that they can open up singularities that lead into parallel realities, but we don't know how small they could make them or even if they could do it on the inside of a cube.

I think it's best if they don't anyway; it could do just as much damage to themselves as it does to the Daleks.

[GStone]

It basically "didn't exist by any form of logic; but there it was". It was just visibly there, but scientifically wasn't. The Doctor himself confirmed that it shouldn't have existed; and that it was theoretically impossible.

So, it probably was just a void...maybe temporal.

But not as good as the Daleks ;)

Well, the point is that they already have some knowledge, so it wouldn't be totaly alien to them.

The Daleks have similar level to the Timelords when it comes to temporal technology, and they don't suffer from massive shipboard malfunctions (like in FC) when time travel is invoked.

The borg sphere blew up, yes...because of the Enterprise. There's no indication there was any negative effects on the sphere.

Well they were considered a threat to the Timelords, so they could possibly have extended it to whatever the Timelords used for energy in the midst of electricity. I would say that a cube wouldn't exactly overload a Dalek if they had some measure of just pumping it back out into the air again, though. Maybe "absorb and fire gun" repeatedly in various sections.

The strongest sources of energy emission from the Daleks are either the shields or its cannon. You've got the speaker, the hover generator bit, the light and those use low energy emissions (I'm assuming low for the hovering abilities, since they're seen flying around easily) and all of these are gonna have stress limits, just as the two strongest sources. Maybe they could expand their force fields, but they'd run the risk of shredding their own mates up.

Or even if Dalek shields are advanced enough to ignore it.

Maybe, but the Doctor was thinking about using a van cassadyne energy wave, so they obviously can't effect all things.

I think it's best if they don't anyway; it could do just as much damage to themselves as it does to the Daleks.

That depends on their level of control of how small they can make it or even if they have the emitters for it inside, which we don't know.