All about Serafina (Split)

[Serafina]

Wait, so "fuck" is now impolite instead of just being a strong impression?

[The Dude]

"Fuck" is impolite but it's totally OK to imply that bigotry against transexuals is OK?

[Mr. Oragahn]

"Fuck" is impolite but it's totally OK to imply that bigotry against transexuals is OK?

I sense an equal amount of bigotry from the other side, you know.
I think this discussion had been and is going nowhere. Perhaps the best thing to do is stick to what this board is meant for.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Simple parsimony again:
My claim: The brain is a complex thing, you can not simply remove/alter an elementary part of it without causing great damage.

I am not a doctor so i cannot support that claim, nor can you. And we do see the use of drugs ect for many conditions and i am not saying that we should alter anything but the base cause and see what happens.

Fixing the brain so it creates the correct amount of hormones ect is not the same as brainwashing or destroying a personality.

I did not decide to be female. You do not decide your gender identity.
I DID decide to finally live like one - but that's something different.

And again, those 10% could be all that is needed to establish gender identity.

So instead of suffering because of a 10% anomaly counter to physicality they could suffer from 90% one due to a physical operation?.

Who are you to decide that they are wrong?
Yeah, they send signals a normal male brain doesn't send - instead, they send signals a normal female brain sends.

I did not decide they were wrong those scientific tests MAY have.

If it can be treated safely and without radically altering your personality.
Which is simply not the case here.

I have seen no proof of that.

You have no right nor capability to decide or declare something like that.

I did not decide it the scientific tests you posted suggested it.

Look, you seem to believe that once you fix that anomaly, everything would be fine.
That is a pretty big claim, the brain simply doesn't work like that.

Maybe and maybe not but i would think that we should know for certain first.

My gender idenity is female because some small part of my brain developed differently.

Your thought processes may have feminine tendancies due to a brain anamoly, you expanded upon that as a matter of choice and while i support the freedom of choice whole heartedly the issue with the brain does concern me.

Honestly, i am starting to give up on this.

Pretty much no one here seems to place any value in tolerance - if the problem can be made invisible, then that is the preferable solution to you! Diversity is bad, apparently!
You blatantly advocate segregation, forcibly changing peoples brains, claim that transsexuals can not make decisions for themselves and so on.
You do not even understand why any of this is wrong!

A person who actually valued tolerance would just say "okay, i understand why you do not want this, do what you want". A truly tolerant person would just run with it.
But you can not stop arguing AGAINST transsexuality. Even when we had an actual discussion you did that. And now you are advocating forcibly changing ones brain instead of choosing the much simpler solution that already exists! That's so morally sickening i can't even express it properly - we are talking about eugenics-level stuff here!

Please show me that there is at least one tolerant SFJ-member - because right now, you are destroying that image that you acquired quite effectively.

1. Give up then.

2. I am very tolerant, in fact im considerably more tolerant than you.

3. It is you who tried to spin the "forcibly changing peoples brains", "claim that transsexuals can not make decisions for themselves and so on" lines. You are way too emotionally charged on this issue to be able to debate rationally and without making absurdly expanded claims about simple discussion points and lines of thought.

4. You do know that tolerance does NOT mean giving anybody what they want whenever they want it and not asking questions at all ever right?.

5. I am very tolerant as i said but that does not mean that i am not going to ask questions, propose ideas and suggest other options or possabilities. Now if you choose to fly off the handle at every question or idea you find uncomfortable maybe it is better if you give up until you have better self control on the issue.

[The Dude]

"Fuck" is impolite but it's totally OK to imply that bigotry against transexuals is OK?

I sense an equal amount of bigotry from the other side, you know.
I think this discussion had been and is going nowhere. Perhaps the best thing to do is stick to what this board is meant for.

BS, complete and utter fucking BS. Some folk here are discriminating based on items beyond the persons control (sexuality, gender, sexual identity) and others are discriminating based on their tolerances.

It's amazing that fans of a series that tried to champion human rights and equality for all can totally miss the point in such an epic fashion.

Hilariously because of a tangent that should only have lasted as long as it took to say "OK, I'll address you as you prefer" SFJ has now been cemented in the eyes of folk on SDN (and elsewhere) as being exactly what they claim; a haven for fools, bigots and general ignorance. Except it's not for a stupid-ass hobby like SW VS ST but for a more important social issue.

You even managed to alienate me, someone who previously thought the boards reputation was overblown. Congrats, thats a hell of a feat.

Good thing that Mike and Prommie didn't weigh in here or it would have been a total loss.

Edit: fixed spelling

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

"Fuck" is impolite but it's totally OK to imply that bigotry against transexuals is OK?

I sense an equal amount of bigotry from the other side, you know.
I think this discussion had been and is going nowhere. Perhaps the best thing to do is stick to what this board is meant for.

BS, complete and utter fucking BS. Some folk here are discriminating based on items beyond the persons control (sexuality, gender, sexual identity) and others are discriminating based on their tolerances.

It's amazing that fans of a series that tried to champion human rights and equality for all can totally miss the point in such an epic fashion.

Hilariously because of a tangent that should only have lasted as long as it took to say "OK, I'll address you as you prefer" SFJ has now been cemented in the eyes of folk on SDN (and elsewhere) as being exactly what they claim; a haven for fools, bigots and general ignorance. Except it's not for a stupid-ass hobby like SW VS ST but for a more important social issue.

You even managed to alienate me, someone who previously thought the boards reputation was overblown. Congrats, thats a hell of a feat.

Good thing that Mike and Prommie didn't weigh in here or it would have been a total loss.

Edit: fixed spelling

So let me understand this you are intolerant of a debate board because it is debating a inflammatory subject and some of the individuals are allowing their emotions to overide simple debate points?.

I see this as a mature forum with intelectuals as members and as such i did not have a issue with a discussion that brought up some of the more extreem opinions on the subject matter. However if you and some others are not mature enough or rational/unemotional enough on this subject to discuss it in its entirety without resorting to calling others bigots ect for being able to do so i suggest you leave the thread to those who can.

Many of the issues i have brought up or discussed i do not support however this is a adult debate and as such i did not see a issue in bringing them up and discusiing them.

[Serafina]

Kor, do you honestly not see the problem?

Your solution WON'T WORK.
The brain is just too bloody complicated.

You also seem to think that gender identity is just an on/off switch - but it is a fundamental part of ones personality and one of the first thins to develop.
A lot of your personality is based on it.

You are essentially advocating that transsexuals are forced to change an essential part of their personality. And for what reason?
Because you claim that it is better, since it increases conformity!
And no, they would NOT be happier - do you think anyone will be happy if your forcibly change their personality? I certainly would not be any happier.

Well, other than that you are advocating that transsexuals can not make rational decisions about themselves and that it is therefore totally okay to force such a procedure onto them.

So, Kor:
Are you going to present evidence that you can change ones gender identity without radically altering their personality and causing great damage?



Honestly, why is this forum so bigoted and intolerant?
Sure, yeah, you call me intolerant as well - but of what?
Yes, i do not tolerate intolerance and bigotry, as well as willful stupidity.
But other than that - where am i intolerant?

But let's compare, shall we:
-the Webmaster of this forum is OK with people advocating anti-homosexual and anti-transsexual bigotry as long as no impolite words are used.
-Not a single member is speaking out against these open displays of bigotry.
-People are advocating segregation transsexuals solely based on linguistics.
-People are constantly calling transwomen male, which is extremely offensive.
-People have declared their disgust with transsexuals
-People have claimed that transsexuals are sick and wrong
-People see nothing wrong with making transsexuals outcasts
-Kor has been advocating forcibly removing a whole group of people for the sake of conformity.

Overall, that is a pretty damn bad track record - especially since that is ALL members of this forum have been saying about the issue! Not a single one has been arguing for the rights of transsexuals with their genuine best interest in mind.
Sure, there have been declarations that you tolerate transsexuals - but actions speak stronger than words, and in the end the majority of words counts.


So - unless someone can show that this forum is NOT all made out of bigots or put up a genuinely non-prejudiced or scientifically wrong argument (read: support it with evidence), i do not think this issue deserves any further attention.

Oh, and in case you wonder:
This thread has already been linked on several anti-bigotry, pro-tolerance forums - as an example of extreme unapologetic bigotry. Nothing publicly accessible, but i suppose that's only because most of this is so stretched out.

[Mr. Oragahn]

"Fuck" is impolite but it's totally OK to imply that bigotry against transexuals is OK?

I sense an equal amount of bigotry from the other side, you know.
I think this discussion had been and is going nowhere. Perhaps the best thing to do is stick to what this board is meant for.

BS, complete and utter fucking BS. Some folk here are discriminating based on items beyond the persons control (sexuality, gender, sexual identity) and others are discriminating based on their tolerances.

It's amazing that fans of a series that tried to champion human rights and equality for all can totally miss the point in such an epic fashion.

Hilariously because of a tangent that should only have lasted as long as it took to say "OK, I'll address you as you prefer" SFJ has now been cemented in the eyes of folk on SDN (and elsewhere) as being exactly what they claim; a haven for fools, bigots and general ignorance. Except it's not for a stupid-ass hobby like SW VS ST but for a more important social issue.

You even managed to alienate me, someone who previously thought the boards reputation was overblown. Congrats, thats a hell of a feat.

Reputation like what? By whom?
Who cares, really?
I won't change my view on what makes a true woman. Period.
That, because contrary to some De Beauvoir bullshit, you're given life either as a man or a woman, and you develop a feminine or masculine personality. And I can't begin to describe the mess it is to start arguing that one is not a female but is a woman. :s
I never said I'd consider trans people to be sub-citizens or sub-humans. Serafina tried that ad hominem against me and globally anyone who would disagree with her (includes racism against blacks and I think I even saw Jews cited at some point - and if we had no avatars to hide behind, I'd even drag her to courts for that), and you seem to fall for it as well, as it's getting dangerously barely veiled. But you are considerably confused. And what you're accusing me of is highly stupid as even trans people don't even know how to call or consider themselves. But somehow I should be responsible of this? You got to be kidding.

[The Dude]

No, I am intolerant of comments that degrade a person based on things beyond their control. Things like "mangle your genitalia" and refusal to acknowledge some as female. If you indeed mean no offence, then so be it.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Are you going to present evidence that you can change ones gender identity without radically altering their personality and causing great damage?

False premise much? Who says that changing a personality would be considered damage?
Imagine, the horror! Leaving a life of a man in a body of a man.
Done with the troubled status. Done with the troublesome duality.

[The Dude]

Reputation like what? By whom?
Who cares, really?

Right, thats why SDN is mentioned all the time here and your opposition to the dominant attitude on that board is a source of pride. Don't tell me you don't give a rats ass.

I won't change my view on what makes a true woman. Period.
That, because contrary to some De Beauvoir bullshit, you're given life either as a man or a woman, and you develop a feminine or masculine personality. And I can't begin to describe the mess it is to start arguing that one is not a female but is a woman. :s
I never said I'd consider trans people to be sub-citizens or sub-humans. Serafina tried that ad hominem against me and globally anyone who would disagree with her (includes racism against blacks and I think I even saw Jews cited at some point - and if we had no avatars to hide behind, I'd even drag her to courts for that), and you seem to fall for it as well, as it's getting dangerously barely veiled. But you are considerably confused. And what you're accusing me of is highly stupid as even trans people don't even know how to call or consider themselves. But somehow I should be responsible of this? You got to be kidding.

No, I don't see why it's any of my business, or yours whether they are confused or not, thats for medical professionals to decide. In the meantime, there is absolutely no harm in addressing them as they prefer.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Reputation like what? By whom?
Who cares, really?

Right, thats why SDN is mentioned all the time here and your opposition to the dominant attitude on that board is a source of pride. Don't tell me you don't give a rats ass.

On this particular topic, I don't care. I don't read SDN to know what its people think about politics, society or else, and it's pretty rare for me to go into such depths about a given topic that's that serious.

I won't change my view on what makes a true woman. Period.
That, because contrary to some De Beauvoir bullshit, you're given life either as a man or a woman, and you develop a feminine or masculine personality. And I can't begin to describe the mess it is to start arguing that one is not a female but is a woman. :s
I never said I'd consider trans people to be sub-citizens or sub-humans. Serafina tried that ad hominem against me and globally anyone who would disagree with her (includes racism against blacks and I think I even saw Jews cited at some point - and if we had no avatars to hide behind, I'd even drag her to courts for that), and you seem to fall for it as well, as it's getting dangerously barely veiled. But you are considerably confused. And what you're accusing me of is highly stupid as even trans people don't even know how to call or consider themselves. But somehow I should be responsible of this? You got to be kidding.

No, I don't see why it's any of my business, or yours whether they are confused or not, thats for medical professionals to decide.

I don't think it's a debate which should strictly be limited to the wills of the docs. Otherwise it means even transies must shut up. Only the men in white blouses can talk.

In the meantime, there is absolutely no harm in addressing them as they prefer.

Which I already did. See "she" and "her" in my posts.
That's the best I can do, despite my positions on this topic.

[The Dude]

In that case perhaps your correct and this topic should simply be locked. I do sense that it'll go round and round for another ten pages with no result.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You also seem to think that gender identity is just an on/off switch - but it is a fundamental part of ones personality and one of the first thins to develop.
A lot of your personality is based on it.

Personalities change as we grow sometimes radically, it is a natural process of growing and maturing.

You are essentially advocating that transsexuals are forced to change an essential part of their personality. And for what reason?
Because you claim that it is better, since it increases conformity!
And no, they would NOT be happier - do you think anyone will be happy if your forcibly change their personality? I certainly would not be any happier.

I am discussing the issue, your emotions are getting the better of your reason.

I NEVER said they should be forced YOU added that to support your emotionally charged bigotry claims.
I NEVER mentioned conformity YOU also added that to support your emotionally charged bigotry claims.

Well, other than that you are advocating that transsexuals can not make rational decisions about themselves and that it is therefore totally okay to force such a procedure onto them.

Another lie.

I said i was concerned due to the fact that it involves a anamoly in the brain, as with above YOU added the "forced" bit amoung other things.

Honestly, why is this forum so bigoted and intolerant?
Sure, yeah, you call me intolerant as well - but of what?
Yes, i do not tolerate intolerance and bigotry, as well as willful stupidity.
But other than that - where am i intolerant?

You cannot tolerate open and honest inquiry because of your emotionally charged bias, questioning every aspect of a issue is NOT intolerance or bigotry.

But let's compare, shall we:
-the Webmaster of this forum is OK with people advocating anti-homosexual and anti-transsexual bigotry as long as no impolite words are used.
-Not a single member is speaking out against these open displays of bigotry.
-People are advocating segregation transsexuals solely based on linguistics.
-People are constantly calling transwomen male, which is extremely offensive.
-People have declared their disgust with transsexuals
-People have claimed that transsexuals are sick and wrong
-People see nothing wrong with making transsexuals outcasts
-Kor has been advocating forcibly removing a whole group of people for the sake of conformity.

Get off the soap box take a chill pill and discuss all the aspects of the issue like a adult instead of a petulant child not getting their own way.

So - unless someone can show that this forum is NOT all made out of bigots or put up a genuinely non-prejudiced or scientifically wrong argument (read: support it with evidence), i do not think this issue deserves any further attention.

Goodbye.

If you know any adults who can discuss every aspect of and opinion on this issue rationally and reasonably without screaming abuse or accusing those who post counter points (a essential part of a discussion weather they support them or not) please send them this way.

Oh, and in case you wonder:
This thread has already been linked on several anti-bigotry, pro-tolerance forums - as an example of extreme unapologetic bigotry. Nothing publicly accessible, but i suppose that's only because most of this is so stretched out.

You are one sick and twisted puppy and NOT because you are transgender but because you have no concept of mature inquiry and discussion.

You need to understand that tolerance includes the ability to discuss all the issues of a topic including the ones you may disagree with or even consider distastful WITHOUT resorting to emotional outbursts and juvinille accusations of bigotry for doing so?.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Wait, so "fuck" is now impolite instead of just being a strong impression?

You'll note that I didn't complain about all instances of "fuck," but yes, it's generally an impolite word. Let's examine a very typical impolite use of the word "fuck:"

BS, complete and utter fucking BS.

What role does "fucking" play in this sentence? It serves simply as an emotional epithet and amplifier. There's no content to it; it simply serves to express and promote emotional, rather than cool, calm, and rational, reactions. The only reason it's there is to try to shock and draw attention.

This board was created to test the question of whether or not VS debaters - a contentious loud-mouthed crew - could communicate to each other politely, and to see what would happen if they did.

The idea is that if you can maintain a polite discussion on a topic, you can go a great long way in actually communicating about the topic. This has not happened in this thread, but then, nor has discussion been particularly calm and rational. I have been several times tempted to simply lock this discussion and be done with having to carefully watch to make sure that posters are at least speaking with the bare minimums of courtesy in their speech.

I see my role here in enforcing the rules as one of facilitating discussion between people who otherwise would have great difficulty managing to actually talk to each other, because the discussion would otherwise degenerate into the textual equivalent of just shouting obscenities at one another.

This debate keeps drifting towards that. In spite of that, we've arrived at some very interesting points in this debate. For example, this exchange:

Just one last bit, can't help.

If someone says the truth regardless of the consequences, he is an immoral asshole who has no morals.

No. You won't use the emotional card to silence truth. And you won't argue with someone and claim that you are right for pages, when you actually acknowledge that you've been wrong all along, but you don't want to admit it because of selfish concerns and throw insults instead as a smokescreen. It is dishonest.
Not to say that where I live, telling the truth IS the moral.

Emotional card? Morality card if anything.

And are you telling me that telling the truth is moral to you, regardless of the consequences?

Mr. Oragahn has asserted that it's always moral to tell the truth. Serafina has asserted that it's immoral to tell the truth if it will hurt someone, and combined that with a broader than usual definition of "hurt" than that normally used in criticizing truth as a moral imperative.

Is this disgusting? No. This is precisely the center of the topic, and a worthwhile subject of debate.

Hilariously because of a tangent that should only have lasted as long as it took to say "OK, I'll address you as you prefer" SFJ has now been cemented in the eyes of folk on SDN (and elsewhere) as being exactly what they claim; a haven for fools, bigots and general ignorance. Except it's not for a stupid-ass hobby like SW VS ST but for a more important social issue.

The eyes of the folk of SDN are, in my opinion, colored by misrepresentation of this board. Even while posting here on this board, Serafina seems to me to be misrepresenting the positions of her opponents to try to paint them to be great villains.

There are other important issues here too, such as global warming, or the morality of the war in Iraq, which I have also tolerated serious disagreements on.

I don't have a problem with the fact that there are very real and very substantial disagreements between the regulars of this board. I consider it healthy to look out on my board and discover that I disagree sharply with some of the regulars here. It proves precisely one of my central claims about the VS debate: That really, whether you take the side of Star Trek or Star Wars says absolutely nothing about what sort of person you are.

I refuse to ban on the basis that someone believes, quite honestly, something that I disagree with, and has had the temerity to put that opinion into words. Some people are bigoted. Some people are ignorant. And they, too, have a right to express their opinions. If they can do so calmly and without running anywhere near afoul of the law, they can express those opinions here.

The Dude, I understand that disagreement on some subjects is uncomfortable. But there is a famous quotation I am inclined to bring out: "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."