Neocolonialism, terrorism, and human rights, oh my!

[Mr. Oragahn]

Wow attacked from all sides at once! Now I know in the flesh how it must be like to be conservative in the middle of the freaking Bill Maher show.

To think a comparison of SDN as some kind of virtual police state to real world police states started all this crap!

The last thing I wanted was to join this board to discuss politics there are plenty of other boards for that that I do go too for that when I feel like bashing heads.
Not too mention that I already get plenty of beatiful death threats from Muslims and leftists alike such this one:

freemason1992 wrote in a PM elsewhere...
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8400/1236876355194.jpg

I am really coming after you for being a member of this site.

I've edited the PM so it does not directly display the disturbing picture...


So forgive for not wanting to play anymore I'm not conceding to anything but if in your narrow twisted mindset that is what you people want to believe fine...

BTW I've refrained as much as possible my use of derogatory language and flames.

Concession accepted.

[PunkMaister]

Concession accepted.

Believe what you will you want to believe the US and all it's citizens myself included deserve to be beheaded in the fashion as your beloved muslim friends depicted on their PM fine by me. I have better things to do than to waste time on people that can only resort to Tu-quoque attacks and circular reasoning to win an argument. Especially in this board which I did not join for this crap.

[Feldercarb]

See you later then.

[Praeothmin]

Wow attacked from all sides at once! Now I know in the flesh how it must be like to be conservative in the middle of the freaking Bill Maher show.

You are not "attacked from all sides", you are just espousing views that most people here don't agree with, views which you support with sometimes eroneous facts...

Like the UN inspectors that were supposedly thrown out, on which you based many of your conclusions on Saddam Hussein, and which was shown as being false.

You know, people have the right to disagree with you, and not share all your views and values, even...

[Jedi Master Spock]

Mr. Oragahn, please don't start getting into that "concession accepted when they haven't actually offered one" routine. It's not helpful when Point45 does it on SB.com and ST.com, and it's not helpful here.

Wow attacked from all sides at once! Now I know in the flesh how it must be like to be conservative in the middle of the freaking Bill Maher show.

There are conservatives here; there are liberals here. (See the Political Compass thread if you would like to read more about the forums population in terms of political leanings.) As in most onine fora, liberals probably do outnumber conservatives.

Political discussion really isn't the point of this website; if you choose not to participate in political discussion threads here, you won't really miss that much. I mostly find it interesting as a nice exhibition of how political views completely fail to correlate with VS debate views, in contradiction of claims made elsewhere.

So forgive for not wanting to play anymore I'm not conceding to anything but if in your narrow twisted mindset that is what you people want to believe fine...

BTW I've refrained as much as possible my use of derogatory language and flames.

Thank you for keeping your temper in check. That's all I'm asking for.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mr. Oragahn, please don't start getting into that "concession accepted when they haven't actually offered one" routine. It's not helpful when Point45 does it on SB.com and ST.com, and it's not helpful here.

I'm sure most people will easily understand that it's a plain concession with a flimsy excuse to get out of this mess, but so be it.

And of course Punk seems to know more about my own friends than I do myself. Go figure.

[PunkMaister]

You are not "attacked from all sides", you are just espousing views that most people here don't agree with, views which you support with sometimes eroneous facts...

Like the UN inspectors that were supposedly thrown out, on which you based many of your conclusions on Saddam Hussein, and which was shown as being false.

You know, people have the right to disagree with you, and not share all your views and values, even...

I did not say in fact it was another poster whom claimed that all Neocons suffer from a mental disease and used the typical Tu quoque argument that someone like Darkstar who is nothing but the extreme opposite side of what Wong represents said in his website as it I am somehow responsible for what the SOB writes in the first place. Just like the idiots that over a month ago picketed at old San Juan Jewelry stores against Israel just on the grounds that the stores are owned by Jews!

And I did conceede that that particular piece of infom was wrong but it was what the mass media fed for decades, Now there is a whole lot of arguments from the opposite side that are totally baseless and no evidence have been brought forth some have even gone as far as suggesting that Etnich cleansing and things worse than the WWII holocaust were being perpetrated in South Ossetia and when I asked for evidence all I got in response was "There is more than meets the eye!" Brilliant I guess we now know who we can blame:

Is this and the constant use of Tu-quoque arguments and Circular reasoning that led to post that.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Now there is a whole lot of arguments from the opposite side that are totally baseless and no evidence have been brought forth some have even gone as far as suggesting that Etnich cleansing and things worse than the WWII holocaust were being perpetrated in South Ossetia and when I asked for evidence all I got in response was "There is more than meets the eye!"

Dang. It truly takes some filthy putrid dry balls to rewrite history on such a short scale when the reality can be observed by everybody.
Since I'm the one who said "there is more than meets the eye" and it was not in relation to South Ossetia, you're going to stand for your remarkable claims and show me where I claimed ethnic cleansing and things worse than the WWII holocaust happened in South Ossetia.

*whistles*

Hey, I'm going to make it simpler for you:

I'm totally convinced that ethnic cleansing and things worse than the WWII holocaust happened in South Ossetia. I swear!

[PunkMaister]

Now there is a whole lot of arguments from the opposite side that are totally baseless and no evidence have been brought forth some have even gone as far as suggesting that Etnich cleansing and things worse than the WWII holocaust were being perpetrated in South Ossetia and when I asked for evidence all I got in response was "There is more than meets the eye!"

Dang. It truly takes some filthy putrid dry balls to rewrite history on such a short scale when the reality can be observed by everybody.
Since I'm the one who said "there is more than meets the eye" and it was not in relation to South Ossetia, you're going to stand for your remarkable claims and show me where I claimed ethnic cleansing and things worse than the WWII holocaust happened in South Ossetia.

*whistles*

Hey, I'm going to make it simpler for you:

I'm totally convinced that ethnic cleansing and things worse than the WWII holocaust happened in South Ossetia. I swear!

I never pointed that you were the one that made such a claim if you must know it KaneStarkiller who compared the situation in South Osettia to Kosovo mass graves, ethnic cleansing and all but then when someone asked him to provide proof this is what you then came up with:

And while you are at it please bring some evidence of ethnic cleansing and mass graves as it was the case in the former republics of Yugoslavia.

There's much than meets the eye.

Hence my Transformers analogy.

Tell me Mr Oraghan have you ever asked yourself why none and I mean none of the 22 arab countries have allowed the Palestinians to become citizens and have kept them as refugess for over 60 years now? Unlike the US and other countries in Europe etc that did grant them that citizenship. The Arab/Muslim world decries the Palestinian issue but in reality they are the ones that have been feeding it all this time.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Tell me Mr Oraghan have you ever asked yourself why none and I mean none of the 22 arab countries have allowed the Palestinians to become citizens and have kept them as refugess for over 60 years now? Unlike the US and other countries in Europe etc that did grant them that citizenship. The Arab/Muslim world decries the Palestinian issue but in reality they are the ones that have been feeding it all this time.

US and Europe are not theaters of wars and great tensions, consequences of the political instability in these regions, precisely managed and maintained by the US, and its European and Israeli allies.
The refugees are a problem everywhere. Often poor, they're placed in countries they may not really belong to, and the existence of militia, notably after being defeated by the Jordanian government which used martial law against the Palestinians, the vast majority of its population at that time.
These guys ended in those camps in Lebanon, expelled by force, with whatever was left from their armed combat against the Jordanian regime while it initially started as an uproar in support of a Palestinian extremist group trying to get some attention by hijacking planes. I mean, all that was a progressive and logical radicalization due to the initial Palestinian exodus and 700-800K people kicked out, to leave room for the creation of the State of Israel.

It's clearly a big problem, but you surely understand that the comparison to the refugees in the US and Europe is not apt, and that the refugees still living in the middle-east can't be treated appropriately when there's no stability over there.
The reality is that the US and Europe supported creation of the State of Israel has been done in conditions I cannot condone, and has obviously been the central source of conflict, griefs and injustice for more than half a century.

[PunkMaister]

Tell me Mr Oraghan have you ever asked yourself why none and I mean none of the 22 arab countries have allowed the Palestinians to become citizens and have kept them as refugess for over 60 years now? Unlike the US and other countries in Europe etc that did grant them that citizenship. The Arab/Muslim world decries the Palestinian issue but in reality they are the ones that have been feeding it all this time.

US and Europe are not theaters of wars and great tensions, consequences of the political instability in these regions, precisely managed and maintained by the US, and its European and Israeli allies.
The refugees are a problem everywhere. Often poor, they're placed in countries they may not really belong to, and the existence of militia, notably after being defeated by the Jordanian government which used martial law against the Palestinians, the vast majority of its population at that time.
These guys ended in those camps in Lebanon, expelled by force, with whatever was left from their armed combat against the Jordanian regime while it initially started as an uproar in support of a Palestinian extremist group trying to get some attention by hijacking planes. I mean, all that was a progressive and logical radicalization due to the initial Palestinian exodus and 700-800K people kicked out, to leave room for the creation of the State of Israel.

It's clearly a big problem, but you surely understand that the comparison to the refugees in the US and Europe is not apt, and that the refugees still living in the middle-east can't be treated appropriately when there's no stability over there.
The reality is that the US and Europe supported creation of the State of Israel has been done in conditions I cannot condone, and has obviously been the central source of conflict, griefs and injustice for more than half a century.

I find it remarkable how quick you are to basically demonize all jews or do you forget that Jews were also forcefully expelled from Arab countries?

You also seem very quick to forget that back in 1948 when Israel was created the idea was to create 2 states one Arab one Jewish and it was the Arabs not the Israelis that refused the proposal and went to war instead in an attempt to drive the Jews living there into the sea or wipe them out all together.

[sonofccn]

Sorry to barge in on you Mr. Oragahn and PunkMaister but I have a question or two to ask to satisfy my own thoughts.

US and Europe are not theaters of wars and great tensions, consequences of the political instability in these regions

I don't understand how, if the refugees mean so much to the various middle eastern countries, not one has allowed them to become citizens. To be a refugee for 60 years is beyond comical, it is insane. I would think it would be a popular move, extending the loving hand of mercy towards your brother and sisters,metaphysicaly of course, in thier time of need and it isn't like anyone would declare war on them or anything.

The reality is that the US and Europe supported creation of the State of Israel has been done in conditions I cannot condone, and has obviously been the central source of conflict, griefs and injustice for more than half a century

What condition would you condone? To me in a comparison between an advanced western style democratic nation and less so nations who act as if society reached perfection in the 13th century the western style nation has priority.

[Mr. Oragahn]

US and Europe are not theaters of wars and great tensions, consequences of the political instability in these regions

I don't understand how, if the refugees mean so much to the various middle eastern countries, not one has allowed them to become citizens. To be a refugee for 60 years is beyond comical, it is insane. I would think it would be a popular move, extending the loving hand of mercy towards your brother and sisters,metaphysicaly of course, in thier time of need and it isn't like anyone would declare war on them or anything.

Lebanon would first need to get a truly stable regime which can remain in place for at least a decade, which can rebuild its economy, and above all stops being threatened by Israel and US warships cruising some kilometers away from the shore.
That Palestinian rights are so limited in those camps is a bizarre situation, but it has probably something to do with regional status, the possible sudden rise of extremists, and that the government may not want Palestinians free roaming in their country, if it's going to cause major national and international security problems, notably because Palestinians are a group of people focusing attention.
It's extremely complicated to manage.
Besides, unless I missed something, the US' policy on citizenship certification for immigrants and mass refugees isn't something really that examplary either, and yet the USA are supposed to be a very wealthy and powerful nation. I could also mention the immigrants crammed into the camp of Sangatte in northern France. Check out Philippe Lioret's film titled Welcome.

What condition would you condone?

Nearly 800,000 Palestinians brutally expelled from their houses, notably by mercenaries making room for the future State of Israel. Houses which in return were "looted" by people claiming that it was their right to do so, since these houses were abandonned (of course!).

To me in a comparison between an advanced western style democratic nation and less so nations who act as if society reached perfection in the 13th century the western style nation has priority.

What are you comparing here?

[sonofccn]

Lebanon would first need to get a truly stable regime which can remain in place for at least a decade, which can rebuild its economy, and above all stops being threatened by Israel and US warships cruising some kilometers away from the shore.
That Palestinian rights are so limited in those camps is a bizarre situation, but it has probably something to do with regional status, the possible sudden rise of extremists, and that the government may not want Palestinians free roaming in their country, if it's going to cause major national and international security problems, notably because Palestinians are a group of people focusing attention.
It's extremely complicated to manage

Lebanon isn't the whole middle east. All of them at one time or another used the refugess as an excuss but not one will lift a finger to actual help them. If it was so important that these supposedly otherwise peaceful people would go to such extreme measures against Israel then why couldn't they put aside the various other issues. I'm not saying it would have been percfect or flawless but with 60 years to play with the problem could have been solved.

Besides, unless I missed something, the US' policy on citizenship certification for immigrants and mass refugees isn't something really that examplary either, and yet the USA are supposed to be a very wealthy and powerful nation.

The United States doesn't use the outrage over the plight of refugees to justify an endless war against a neighoring state either.

Nearly 800,000 Palestinians brutally expelled from their houses, notably by mercenaries making room for the future State of Israel. Houses which in return were "looted" by people claiming that it was their right to do so, since these houses were abandonned (of course!).

interesting if true, by mercenary gunpoint I mean. So is that it. would you fully support Israel if not for that presumed act sixty years ago?

What are you comparing here?

Israel vs it's enemies over who owns the promised land. I favor Israel as opposed to nations where you can be arrested for practicing withcraft and still practice such things as honor killings. If I could I'd give Israel the entire middle east.

[Cocytus]

The unfortunate thing is, whatever one's opinions on the process of Israel's formation might be, had the Arabs simply taken what they were offered the first time they might have been better off. Following the Balfour Declaration there were a series of proposals for a partitioned state in Palestine. The so-called "fertile crescent" moves through the northern and eastern portions of Israel on its way to the Nile river delta. The southern portion of Israel consists primarily of the Negev desert. The Peel Commission Report of 1937 gave the majority of the land to the Arabs, but the fertile northern and eastern portions were given to the Jews. They rejected that. Then came another partition proposal in 1938 which created a British mandate around Jerusalem. Then came the Woodhead proposals, all of which basically proposed the same scheme as the 1938 plan, simply moving the zone of British control encompassing Jerusalem around. That too was rejected. Then came the United Nations Special Commission on Palestine (UNSCOP) which put forth two proposals, both of which had a Jewish state with a band of Arab state cutting through it, kind of like Azerbaijan. The UNSCOP plans proposed a 50-50 sharing of land area. While the border was a tad ridiculous, it's no worse than the current situation, and the Arabs and Jews would have shared both the eastern coast and the northern portion.

See all the proposals here: http://www.dartmouth.edu/~gov46/

Oh, and SonofCCN, I don't know whether you saw this in the other thread, but in case you missed it, Google "Human Terrain System." It's exactly what I proposed back in October, helping our troops to understand language and customs.