All about Serafina (Split)

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Who is like God arbour
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All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Who is like God arbour » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:14 am

Roondar wrote:Arguing from authority (i.e. I'm better qualified than you so you must be wrong) is bad form. Easy to avoid too, no need to point out your credentials - just point out their errors and call them out on trying to hide behind their status.

Trying to show of you have good enough/equal/better credentials will only work in the advantage of who ever claims your are not good enough - it gives them ammunition.

Attack the argument, not the fallacies behind them ;)
Whom are you addressing with that post?

I hope not me because I agree with that sentiment.

I have only referred to my Abitur because Serafina has insinuated that I slept through my biology lessons and that she had learned all the discussed stuff already in her 10th class.

If she hadn't done that, I would never had brought my education into that debate.

Insofar the mentioning of my education was never supposed to substitute a substantiated argument but merely the logical answer to Serafina's impertinent attack on my person.

(I have only referred to my Abitur and not my final degrees because I had biology the last time in my 13th grade. And seeing that, although the Abitur is often compared to a high school diploma of the United States, the academic level of the Abitur is more comparable to the International Baccalaureate and Advanced Placement tests, I think I'm enough qualified to discus the one or other basics from biology. It's not as if we would discuss here some really difficult aspects of biology for which one has to have studied biology before being able to understand them.)

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All about Serafina (Split)

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:15 am

Here you are sefrina a perfect description of you:
Kruger and Dunning proposed that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

1. tend to overestimate their own level of skill;
2. fail to recognize genuine skill in others;
3. fail to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy;
Still its not all doom and gloom:

4. recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill, if they can be trained to substantially improve.
So i would suggest you leave your comfort zone in SDN as they are stunting your growth intellectually, emotionally and socially.

Get out a little on other boards where you cannot hide behind arrogance, ignorance and abuse i promise you that you will be better off for it in the long run although i doubt you will accept the fact you need it BADLY.

Perhaps even avoiding forums all together and going out socialising in person would help, it would at least show you how your behaviour and attitude towards ppl who do not agree with you will cause them to react when you speak to them in person the way you do on a forum.

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:03 pm

Ah, so my calculations were wrong? Then why did you never debunk them?
I pointed out they were wrong every time you posted them.
Ah, yes, of course i must be lying if something is inconvenient for you!
Here are some posts that show that you are wrong (all publicly accessible).
I did not made this up, and i never would.

Evidently, you are grasping at straws to show how i am lying about myself, even when i am clearly not.
Anybody can post images to reinforce a lie.

But regardless it is not inconvienient for me that i just do not believe you, but HE/SHE or liar the fact is that i had you pegged when i said you posted like a juvinille male.
Oh no! Internet psychology! Performed by a 40-year old gardener!!
See above about my comment on your posting style.......

This 40 year old gardener had you personality type nailed early in this discussion.
Guess what - psychology is difficult. No one who knows anything about it would diagnose someone based on some internet posts.
And yet i nailed your personality type and maturity easily enough.
Furthermore, i readily admit when i am wrong, do not claim to have extraordinary skill and respect those who have it.
Actually i said you were wrong and you unleashed a torrent of foul abuse, a warsie said you were wrong and you pretty much bent over and started looking for a new excuse.........like trying to find other scenes that could be used to make the roids larger and faster......
The math itself is simple.
And yet you screwed it up, by YOUR OWN MEASURE you qualify as a idiot.
But my theory doesn't rely on him being wrong all the time. It merely states that he is fallible (and doesn't rely on it). He clearly is.
Your theory does not just rely on him being fallable, it relies on him being worng, geordie being wrong, the scientists on the planet being wrong and them continuing to be wrong while the phasers are being adjusted and while they are being fired. Also it relies on the computer readings from the E-D to be wrong and or misread by several ppl several times during the episode.

Quite simply your entire theory relies on all that and the fact it is all a main plot.
In any debate, you are supposed to present evidence.
And yet again i remind you this is not a debate and i was discussing evidence before you butted in..
A calculation can be very simplistic, but one can fail to use the correct formula or make false assumptions.
Well i suppose you are on the perfect website to show a example of how making false assumptions can lead to worthless results.

I didn't screw up the math. Apparently, you do not understand what math even is.
It is the thing you failed at.
Already addressed that - internet psychology doesn't work.
And yet i was totally correct when i said you posted like a petulant juvinille male if we are to assume your images are not just their to reinforce a long term lie but either way i had you pegged.

HE/SHE or just a lying juvinille fool your posting style is easy to figure a personality type from.
1. What makes you think SD.Net is the only board where i am?
2. Or that i am not socializing with anybody?
3. Or that i employ the same attitude towards people in real life?
1. SDN is setup perfectly for personality types like you, its rules actually promote the unleasing of abuse and i recall a part that actually tries to justify it by using a absurd story regarding saving a baby of all things (a result that could have been achieved without a single bit of foul abuse). If anything the individual in the story would have become more aggressive and stubborn after being spoken to that way instead of being reasoned with or even been told that the authorities would be informed.

But it is just a weak justification for the immature to use to justify their need to spew toxin so...

2. Anybody is a over simplification, you need to broaden your social interaction to include those whpo do not share or support your beliefs or your rather obvious issues will just increase.

3. If you did you would not have a social life because nobody would want to spend time wil a person who spews out a torrent of foul abuse towards those who will not obey them, calls ppl idiots while at the same time qualifying as a idiot by the very rules you apply to do so.

Quite simply you are showing classic signs of personal frustration and anger on a unimportant issue by spewing out your abuse in a consequense free environment, your attitude and behaviour would not be tolerated for any amount of time in a public social environment. You could get lucky and find those who would be willing to try and help you for a time but if you did not show signs of change you would be shunned or get the occasional ass kicking for being a general dick in regards to your attitude towards others..

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:12 pm

Ah, so not you claim that my evidence must be a lie?
i did not say MUST be a lie ..., i said COULD be a lie....
There we go. And now i had to make a terrible photo of myself due to some idiotic bigot.
Bigot?, now theres a burden of proof id like to see just cos i called you a liar on several subjects including this one....chip on shoulder much?.
Personality type?
Ah, the typical bigot way of thinking - everyone can be put into a nice little box, right?
Oh dear here we go again with a no limit fallacy....look pal i was right about your posting style being distinctly like a adolescent male, but that does not mean i am interested or care past the fact i was correct at least in terms of your emotional state.

My opinion of your honesty has been a issue on several subjects including this one, but again you choose to focus on the rather large sexual orentation chip on your shoulder?.
Do i REALLY have to explain this?
If you do i suggest you check with a non-idiot warsie first to correct any errors...
Ah, so you think gender can be purely determined by a single piece of behaviour such as posting style?
Well considering i did id say in your case yes.
And ever woman who "posts like a male" must be lying about her gender? And you say that you are not a sexist bigot?
I never said EVERY nor would i, but in your case i was bang on correct.
But please, explain to me what a "male posting style" is. I'm sure we'll all have a good laugh.
It is not just about a "male" posting style it is about attitude and what you focused on and how you did things over all....id say more of a angry or frustrated adolescent male posting style.

It is just a over all impression i got from your posts, i cannot really select a sentance or a few words that gave me the indication as it was a overall impression i got...and it turned out correct.
And what's wrong with verbal some abuse of stupid people?
You tell me as you are the one howling bigotry over me calling you a liar on several seperate subjects when only one has anything to do with any particular sexual trait and i make no judgments regarding it either way just that i thought you were lying.

You seem to have a prejudice against those with a low IQ, the use of the words idiot, stupid, moron even retard and the fact you verbally abuse them and find it ok to do so is quite disgusting and repulsive considering the mental age and abilities of those who fall into that bracket.

Do you verbally abuse the physically disabled as well as the mentally disabled or does your bigotry only extend to slurs of the mentally disabled nature?.

Hippocrite.
Do you actually think we behave like that all the time, or towards everyone?
Oh i am sure those who agree with you are spared your disgusting slurs about mental disability. And i doubt you behave like that at all to ppl you are talking to directly in person.
Ah, so you think i interact only with people who think exactly like i do?
I guess you must be psychic or something - how else could you know the people i interact with?
I doubt you subject others in direct social environments to the abuse you do on here just because they disagree with you........i do not need to be psychic to know that.
Ah, so you admit that you were lying when you were implying that i behave like that all the time?
I said if you behaved like that all the time especially in direct social environments you would be eventually shunned and need to move on or get your ass kicked.
Kor has to claim that i am lying about my gender, since he can not admit that he is wrong.
If you are lying or not does not matter, if you are in transition i was right as you are a girl posting like a guy and if you are not in transition you are lying and i was also right.....
Have you ever dealt with someone with borderline (BPD)?
Not professionally but i do have considerable experiance regarding PTSD up to a level where EMDR was actually directly refused as a treatment due to the danger to the person administering it and others.
Conclusion:
Kor has to claim that i am lying about my gender, since he can not admit that he is wrong. I don't know why he did that in the first place, he either had to find some cheap personal attack, is a raving bigot or just plain stupid.
1. You are a guy lying about being in transition = meaning i was right about your posting style and being a liar.

2. You are a guy in transition = i am still right about your posting style, and on this topic you are not a liar.....even if you are about others..

Result = im right about your posting style and my conclusions regarding it and you are either a liar about it or you have a chip on your shoulder.............get over it.


I guess he won't apologize, in which case he IS a bigot.
I have made NO sexual slurs regarding your claimed transition i mearly said i think you are a liar....that does not make me a bigot.

YOU however feel it is ok to make direct and personal slurs against the mentally disabled or impared.

He thinks he can psychoanalyze people due to a single thread, and thinks he can safely determine a persons gender by her posting behaviour in a single thread.
Proven at least as far as you are concerned as i figured you out within a few posts.
The latter is pretty much proof that he thinks pretty stereotypically of genders - in other words, he behaves like a sexist.
Interesting and yet another no limit fallacy.

QUESTION:

Q: Kor do you think steryotypes exist within social groups, genders, ect ect.

A: Yes, steryotypes exist for a reason and that reason is because in any kind of group be is social or any other there will exist a percentage of ppl who behave in a uniform way, sometimes in a few ways so a group could contain several differing examples of steryotypical behaviour.

Q: So does this mean you think that ALL the members of said group what ever it is ALL behave that way.

A: Of course not although it is a popular tactic of those with a chip on their shoulder to claim that somebody noticing the steryotypical behaviour and mentioning it is a howling bigot ect ect. Even when no negative judgment is actually made and only a harmless observation leading to a qustion regarding it is actually the case.

For example if i saw a guy dressed up in a drag queen costume walking a pink poodle and talking and behaving in a over the top camp style i do not feel that thinking he may be homosexual or of a cross gender orentaiton would make me a bigot. I certainly would not hate him or feel anything negative towards his lifestyle choice and i would find it very odd if he was offended for me assuming such about him considering the circumstances.

But then that person would obviously be comfortable with his lifestyle choice and confidant enough to likely not care if i was correct or not. I can verify this as i am describing a very good friend of mine (ok i added the poodle but he did mention getting one once while he was pissed claiming it would "complete his ensemble") who i knew years ago when i lived in Bath, he took great pleasure in taking me into the gayest bars in Bath...the "Bath Tap" being his favorite and seeing if i was at all discomforted by being chatted up by the regulars. Still he was a long time buddy so i did not mind his amusment and eventually the regulars got to know me and my hetro orientation and the chat up lines slowed considerably but were still done on occasion for amusment value.


However those like Serafina MUST call out anybody who notices these things and openly and honestly asks the question. Then even though they turn out to be correct and make no judgments either way regarding their choice of life style she accuses them of bigotry...sickening considering his atitude regarding the mentally impaired.

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:37 pm

 


          • - deleted -
Last edited by Who is like God arbour on Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:41 pm

Pretty damn simple - you assumed that i am not female based on nothing but my behavior in a single thread.

I would call that pretty bigoted.
Considering your admitted/claimed circumstances..

I would call that pretty accurate...
A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
Show how a correct observation without a negative judgement either way is intolerant or prejudiced?.
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Show ANY hatred or intolerance for your admitted/claimed circumstances i have shown?....


Unable to do either...i guess you are wrong then...
Given that you provided no evidence......."Because i say so" is no evidence.
You provided that by claiming you are in transition.....so "because YOU said so" is from the hourses mouth.
Ah, so you admit that you are a sexist bigot who thinks that anyone should conform to your personal stereotypes?
NO LIMIT FALLACY ALERT!!!!.

Nope, i was just pointing out that i was correct in regards to yours.
Listen, bigot - i AM a woman.
Perhaps but you post like a adolescent male.
Ah, so...because you say so.
Yes, that's very astute evidence indeed. your personal impression isn't worth a damn.
And yet it was accurate in your case.
Of course, you can not provide any evidence where i ever attacked someone with an actual mental handicap.
Rght so you accept disgusting predjudicial intelectual slurs like MORON or RETARD being used against those who are not and consider it fine and dandy.

But you lose it when somebody who is not gay ect is called a faggot or another homosexual slur?..

BIGOTTED HIPPOCRITE!!!!!!!.
Oh, you would actually be wrong. If someone makes a serious scientific blunder, i insist on correcting them.
Of course, i am very well capable to do this in a polite and inoffensive manner - but why should i invest that into a bigot like you?
RIIIGHT, so all the slurs you used BEFORE you decided to pull this crap about being a bigot will require editing bud.
And stereotypical, prejudiced people who defend those POVs are generally called bigots.
I have mode no predjudicial remarks regarding you.
And i challenge you to provide evidence where i EVER attacked someone for a genuine mental handicap.
How would you know you had not over the years you have posted such disgusting comments?, and how does not doing so make the use of such disgusting slurs OK?. You know by doing so you are supporting the attitudes and actions of those who do right?.

How do you feel the mentally ill feel when they read your foul and bigotted posts?..

Is it ok for me to use homosexual slurs against non-homosexuals or would i be perpetuating a outdated, intolerant and disgracful type of attitude?.

BIGGOTED HIPPOCRITE!!!!!.
You did NOT determine my gender, bigot.
You falsely figured that i am male, even tough i am not.
Stop lying
You admit to being in transition, my comment regarding you post a bit like a adolesant guy under the circumstances was quite insightful.
1. Pretty much everyone has stereotypes.

2. Some people are not capable of looking beyond them.

3. I call those people intolerant bigots.
1. Exactly what i said.
2. True.
3. So do i.
Any decent person would not have used that as a constant insult.
A person without a chip on HIS shpoulder would brush it off....no woman i know would do anything but laugh off being told she posted a little like a bloke....in fact t is your EMORAGE regarding it that was one of the indicators i mentioned .

And decent person would not use constant slurs that insult every mentally ill or impared person reading your posts as well as any family members i or others may have suffering from such.
In your example, you are constantly throwing your perceived stereotype at that persons head, trying to aggravate him/her. And then you would point out that that person obviously has a "chip on his/her shoulder", so you are right to do it!
Take what you wrote above and insert the relavant parts with mentally ill/handicapped comments....recognise a style?...
I see you have never been a member of any kind of minority.
If i was id not tell you or use it like a weapon like you do.
You are essentially saying "if you are offended, it's your own damn fault".
No im not, in fact if YOU are offended at me calling you a HE then im glad because im doing it deliberatly and in equal amounts to your mentally impaired insults...did you not notice the correlation?.
They did NOT turn out to be correct. I am not male, you never provided any explanation why you said that.
Perhaps you are not male but from what you say you spent a reasonable percentage of your life as one or at least being treated as one, that sort of input is going to leave residual emotional and or attitudes more associated with males at younger ages.

For all i know, you did it because you are an intolerant, sexist bigot who likes to seriously hurt people.
Well i can honestly say i do not care about your history, gender or sexual preferance, but because of your constant use of slurs regarding the mentally inpaired or ill and the fact it is a touchy subject i will continue to call you a HE while you use them.

Let's summarize:
Sure.
-You think that it is ok to address a woman as male, even if she insists otherwise, based solely on her posting behavior.
In most cases i would not bother but i know how much it pisses you off due to your circumstances so its the perfect counter point to your disgusting mentally handicapped slurs...

Own medicine not taste so good huh?..
-You think that you can determine something as complex as gender solely from observing behavior in a single instance.
Nope not a single instance but i do get a distinct "adolesant male" vibe from your attutude...explained perhaps by you being raised as a male if your "transition" claiom is true.
-You think that stereotypes are ok.
I think they exist and i do not care how a person acts if it makes them happy and does not hurt anybody.
-You think that you do not have to think outside of your stereotypes.
Now that is a big leap and not true at all.
-Even tough i provided evidence that i am female, you still insist that i am male.
I said your posts had a male vibe about them....easily explained by your claimed history as i mentioned above.
-You think that it is ok to rub something in someones face if that person is sensitive about it.
Remember all those times i pointed out my dislike of foul language and insults?....how does a taste of your own medicine feel?......id suggest not bleeding in public in future.
-You think that a transwoman is still male.
Now that is a interesting question.

Do i think a fully transitioned woman is still a male?.......id have to say NO a fully transitioned woman is as much a woman as any other woman.

But then are you fully transitioned emotionally.......i do not think so, your attitude in regards to the subject is still very raw and you lack the sort of acceptance that comes with contentment of ones self and place.
Looks like i was right about not joining StarFleetJedi.Net. For a forum that thinks it is polite, you have awfully bigoted people here. And that no one tells him to stop is strong evidence that you do not even care about this, most likely because i am a "Warsie".
You do not just think they can read and see that you are a emotionally unstable individual who is getting a small taste of the toxic medicine you have spewed from the begining of this little discussion.
No thanks. I will stay on Stardestroyer.Net, which is civilized enough to be tolerant.
Unless you have a mental illness/disability or a friend/family member with one then it is a very upsetting place to even visit.
Oh, and Kor - don't think this will scare me away, you bigoted sexist piece of lowlife excrements.
YOU GO GIR..opps i mean GUY!!!!!!!!!!!!.

:D
Last edited by Kor_Dahar_Master on Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:44 pm

As far as I know, the legal situation regarding transsexuality is clearly regulated in the Transsexuellengesetz (transsexual-law) in Germany.

Neither a transman nor a transwoman can demand to be addressed as if they have the by their transsexuality imprinted gender.

But, according to § 2 TSG, they can ask a court to agree to an adaption of the forename and/or a declaration about the gender.

For the first, according to § 1 Abs. 1 Nr. 1 and 2 TSG, two medical estimates are necessary which have to confirm that
  • the transsexual imprinting of the person in question causes the person to feel to belong to the other gender than the gender that was registered at the birth of this person and that the person acts under duress to live accordingly to this conception for at least the three last years and
  • that the sentiment to belong to the other gender than the gender that was registered at the birth will probably not change any more.
To get a declaration about the gender, the person in question, according to § 8 Abs. 1 TSG has,
  • in addition to the above listed requirements,
  • to be incapable of reproduction and
  • has to have undergone a surgery that adapts the appearance to the by their transsexuality imprinted gender considerable.
Unlike for transman, for a transwoman that means also the adaption of the genitals according to several court decisions because these are regarded as reasonable for transwoman.

According to the insofar unambiguous law, a transsexual has no right to demand to be addressed as if the transsexual has the by their transsexuality imprinted gender but has to be addressed as if the transsexual has the gender that was registered at the birth.

There seems to be a few court decisions who are saying that the change of the name is enough to be addressed accordingly to the name (e.g. Miss Erika Mustermann instead of Mister Erika Mustermann). But these decisions have no precedence. In Germany a court decision is effective only in the decided case. And considering that these decisions are not reconcilable with the law, I wouldn’t attach importance to them.

The bottom line is that the person who is called Serafina can only demand to be addressed as if he or she is female, when a court has decided so (or if a female gender was registered at the birth).

What the person who is called Serafina wishes is irrelevant.

That means that if the person who is called Serafina can produce a court decision or a birth certificate which declares that this person is female, then you should respect it.

Otherwise you are more than entitled to address this person, who has admitted to be a transwoman, as male.

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:45 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:
Unlike for transman, for a transwoman that means also the adaption of the genitals according to several court decisions because these are regarded as reasonable for transwoman.
Careful dude he has a tendancy to take photos and link em as proof :O.....lol.

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:26 pm

I didn't say that he has to prove to you that he has been neutered and had a penectomy. That's the proof a court has to demand before it can decide.

For you it should be enough if he produces the court decision or the birth certificate.

Even a copy of his Personalausweis (identity card) should be enough.

Please don't ask for more.

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:46 pm

Who is like God arbour wrote:I didn't say that he has to prove to you that he has been neutered and had a penectomy. That's the proof a court has to demand before it can decide.

For you it should be enough if he produces the court decision or the birth certificate.

Even a copy of his Personalausweis (identity card) should be enough.

Please don't ask for more.
Im not asking for anything and in fact could not care less about gender, sexual orientation or any other aspect of his or her personal life.

I do however consider insults that are about mental illness or mental disabilities are just as bad as homophobic or other simular slurs regarding gender or choices regarding personal behaviour.

As such giving this unpleasant individual a taste of his/her own medicine seemed appropriate after several warnings and requests to stop doing so were given and ignored....she/he even had the nerve to defend such disgusting slurs such as "retard" and "moron" ect.

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:22 pm

I just read Serafina's last post.

I do not understand why he is so angry. I mean the saying »We reap what we sow« has much truth in it.

If insults are exchanged, one has no reason to be surprised if the situation escalates. That's only to be expected.

And to complain that the one insult is worse than the other insult is ludicrous because it is always a question how an insult is received.

An insult about the intelligence or education can be worse for some people than an insult about their gender or sexual orientation, while it may be the other way for other people.

And usually, if one tries to insult someone, one tries to hurt by saying something which is assumed to be able to hurt. It's not necessary to believe the things one says to insult someone. Only a very stupid person would conclude that the one who tries to insult someone has to believe what was said in the attempt of an insult. A clever person, who wants to insult someone, does not wonder what would insult oneself but what would insult the one who is supposed to get insulted. And these can even be things which oneself does not really believe in.

Maybe Serafina learns now why in civilised circles the exchange of insults are frowned upon and that such conduct is not suitable to further a debate.

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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:17 pm

Annotation to what I have written here:

If the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany had decided, that the change of the name is enough to be addressed accordingly to the name (e.g. Miss Erika Mustermann instead of Mister Erika Mustermann), it would be binding.

The decisions of other courts are not binding. Although most judges follow the decision of a higher court, they are not obliged to do so. A judge of a Local Court can even dissent from the adjudication of a federal court.

Only with the decisions of the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany this is not possible.

But the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany decides in more than thousand of cases each year. No lawyer can know each decision of each court. That's not possible.

Insofar, if someone claims that there is indeed such a decision, that someone should provide evidence, preferable a link to the decision and the relevant quotes.

I know only of one decision of the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany, in which the court has merely decided, that transsexuals can have homosexual relationships and that this is no evidence for a changed sentiment [O].

It has decided, that § 7 Abs. 1 Nr. 3 TSG is not compatible with the German constitution and therefore null and void.

According to § 7 Abs. 1 Nr. 3 TSG, the decision trough which someone has changed the forename, becomes null and void, if that someone marries someone of the same gender as the by the transsexuality imprinted gender. The purpose of that law was to prevent the impression that same sex marriage is possible (eg. transwoman and woman or transman and man).

Insofar, the tenor of this decision says nothing about the question, how someone, who has changed the forename, has to be addressed. It may be that there is something in the holdings of this decision.

But I'm not really interested in going through them.

I'm not the one who claims that there is such a decision.

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Who is like God arbour
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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:41 pm

I only want to clarify something: I have not insulted Serafina in respect to his transsexuality. At least not willingly.

I have merely presented the legal situation in Germany as far as I know about it.

I have never had to do with he Transsexuellengesetz before and I have never read any decisions to it because that is not a very important topic. I bet that most lawyers haven't even heard of that law.

On the other side, Serafina has accused me (or, if not outright accused, at least insinuated)
  • to lie several times,
  • to not think scientifically,
  • to construct strawmans out of her arguments,
  • to be incapable of honest debate,
  • to have slept during my biology classes when I should have learned basic taxonomy,
  • to have written bullѕhіt,
  • to have no scientific knowledge whatsoever,
  • to not be intelligent,
  • to not be able to apply scientific principles,
  • to be a scientific layperson who never had to operate in an environment where his conclusions came under direct scrutiny,
  • to be uneducated and to throw some gathered scientific catchphrases around,
  • to know nothing about the basics 101 for academic discussions,
  • to ignore what he (Serafina) has written,
  • to be a dumbass,
  • to go for for semantic nitpicks,
  • to be incapable of using lexica,
  • to have said something that caused him (Serafina) to imagine the use of a blunt object on me,
  • to not even know what he (Serafina) has already learned in her 10th class when he was 16,
  • to be a creationist,
  • to be a dispshit, to demonstrate scientific ignorance,
  • to be a chickenshit,
  • to be chickening out,
  • to be a bigot,
  • to not be a decent person,
  • to have a damn emotionless ass,
  • to be incompetent as a lawyer,
  • to deserve it to get fired and my license revoked,
  • to be an idiot,
  • to be disgusting,
  • to be an emotionless troll who apparently loves to batter minorities,
  • to be a fucktard,
  • to be intolerant and parade this intolerance,
  • to be proud of being a bigot and
  • to be an inbred intolerant goatfucking retard.
In addition to that, he is calling my AVOCADO, although my username is Who is like God arbour. Obviously he wants to say something with that. And it is interesting to see, that his against me directed hostility started with the first time he addressed me with that name.

Somehow I have problems to see, why attacks on Serafina's transsexuality, attacks I have never done, are supposed to be more personal than all these insults.

Furthermore his belonging to a minority is probably not the reason why he gets insulted. He gets insulted because he insults others too. His problem is that as someone who is afflicted he is an easy target for insults. That his affliction makes him a member of a minority has nothing to do with it. Yes, it is not decent to insult him because he is afflicted. That's why I would never do it. Fact is, that I feel sympathy for him. But this sympathy is kept within a limit. Because it is not decent to insults people at all and that's what he is doing all the time. It's no wonder that some people are retaliating.

Jedi Master Spock
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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:53 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:Doubtful but then you being tucked away on SDN gives you no real experiance with "decent admins" who know fool well that many "female" posters are actually males... and thinking such about somebody is hardly sexist or a crime.
This is actually true, although becoming less so as the gender ratio on the internet tilts towards even. It's actually a time-honored trolling tactic - old men looking to stir up trouble on internet forums will pretend to be young women so they can instantly get a following from horny teenage boys.

It's also quite common on chat communities (although there, you're more likely to run into law enforcement officers of any sex pretending to be underage girls), and also on MMORPGs (because if you're playing a female character and pretend to be female, it's easier to get free stuff from other players).

Conversely, women pretend to be male online in order to avoid untoward attention. Actual sex and assumed sex are so loosely related that "you sound like a teenaged male" didn't even register as an insult on my radar. That said, this discussion is clearly going nowhere productive now that it's been side-tracked to Serafina's person.

There's really no winning in the ad hominem game. I don't have any reason to believe either one of you is lying about yourselves, but what was a discussion about Star Wars and Star Trek has clearly turned into a conversation about Kor and Serafina, and that makes me sad.
Who is like God arbour wrote:I just read Serafina's last post.

I do not understand why he is so angry. I mean the saying »We reap what we sow« has much truth in it.

If insults are exchanged, one has no reason to be surprised if the situation escalates. That's only to be expected.

And to complain that the one insult is worse than the other insult is ludicrous because it is always a question how an insult is received.

An insult about the intelligence or education can be worse for some people than an insult about their gender or sexual orientation, while it may be the other way for other people.

And usually, if one tries to insult someone, one tries to hurt by saying something which is assumed to be able to hurt. It's not necessary to believe the things one says to insult someone. Only a very stupid person would conclude that the one who tries to insult someone has to believe what was said in the attempt of an insult. A clever person, who wants to insult someone, does not wonder what would insult oneself but what would insult the one who is supposed to get insulted. And these can even be things which oneself does not really believe in.

Maybe Serafina learns now why in civilised circles the exchange of insults are frowned upon and that such conduct is not suitable to further a debate.
A very apt post. Serafina sowed ad hominem and eventually reaped discussion of her own person that she was sensitive to. Of course, SDN can be expected to rally behind Serafina and provide her emotional support now that she appears distraught. The dastardly SFJers have struck her to her soul, after all. Perhaps eventually SDN will be a place where insults based on gender, sexuality, and orientation, such as "cockgoblin," are not casually thrown around.

More likely not; in my opinion, they will most likely continue hypocritically spouting insults indiscriminately at anybody outside their tightly-knit online community whilst taking offence whenever one of their members' sensitive spots is pricked.
Who is like God arbour wrote:As far as I know, the legal situation regarding transsexuality is clearly regulated in the Transsexuellengesetz (transsexual-law) in Germany.
Unfortunately, the law in other places is not always so clear - or as friendly to transsexuals, for that matter.

That said, while the nature of address across national borders over the internet may not be in any way enforced by law, what constitutes good manners for the purpose of productive discussion is another matter. I would strongly suggest that it is generally most productive and polite to refer to someone online with whichever common pronoun won't make a fuss. In the case of Serafina, that is "she."

If you think it would be improper to do so, you might use a neutral pronoun when you're talking about someone whose sex is unclear or in dispute for whatever reason. One would be well-advised to do so, and particularly one should avoid turning the discussion into a shouting match about whether some poster somewhere else on the internet is truly male or truly female. (Kor, please take note.)

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Who is like God arbour
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Re: Does literally everyone go to Stardestroyer.net?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:30 am

Respecting the wish of Jedi Master Spock, I will treat Serafina as female - although I think that this is not correct.

There is a reason for the requirements in the Transsexuellengesetz before her by the transsexuality imprinted gender is recognized as her only gender. Because many questions are not solved. What is e.g. with sports? Does a transwoman participates in sport as a woman or as a man? Or as what is a transwoman to be treated in changing rooms? Goes a transwoman with all her male genitals into the changing rooms for women or for men? Or as what is a transwoman to be treated in a prison, where genders have to be separated? Gets a transwoman a special ward?
All these questions are not so relevant when the requirements of the Transsexuellengesetz for the recognition of the by the transsexuality imprinted gender are fulfilled.

As soon as Serafina meets the requirements of the Transsexuellengesetz for the recognition of the by the transsexuality imprinted gender and has the necessary court decision, I would address her as female anyway. Because I have no problems with transsexuals and have no problems at all with tolerating them. But I'm the opinion that as long as a person is considered by law to be male, the person is not to be treated as a female and vice versa.

By addressing Serafina accordingly to the by the law recognized gender, I may ignore Serafina's wishes, but I have no intention to insult Serafina.






But I wanted to quote something about the binding effects of court decisions in Germany:
        • Jens Gerhardt wrote:1.1 System of precedent in the English legal system

          The rule of stare decisis is the most important characteristic of the practice of precedent in the English legal system1 and the main distinction to the judicial process in civil law jurisdictions. The rule of stare decisis (= to stand by decisions), as Cross/Harris call it, is nothing but a synonym for the doctrine of binding precedent. This doctrine is largely concerned with pure questions of law, not with questions of fact. In general, then, only a decision on a point of law can constitute a precedent. Therefore, to constitute a binding precedent a particular decision has to match two qualifications. The first one has to be seen in the necessity that it really has to be a decision and not a mere obiter dictum, which is some kind of aside or statement, made by the way of deciding the case. The second qualification required is that the doctrine of precedent depends on the relative status of the courts involved. Decisions made by the House of Lords bind all lower Courts, and usually the House of Lords itself, although the European Court of Justice (ECJ) is the highest authority as far as EU matters are concerned. Despite of having claimed the right to overrule old decisions, the House of Lords has not used this right excessively yet. The Court of Appeal is, apart from some exceptions, bound by himself and the lower courts are bound to its decisions, too. At least, the decisions of Divisional Courts bind all lower Courts, whereas all decisions of lower courts are not binding to anyone, a characteristic that can easily be seen in the fact that reports of decisions of such courts are seldom published widely. After having shown these basic and main principles of the doctrine of precedent, we now should have a closer look at this doctrine.
          The idea of precedent is that each judge tries to apply to new combinations of circumstances those rules of law, which can be derived from legal principles and judicial precedents. Although these judicially created rules come into existence in a completely different way from the ones, which are legislatively brought into life, they have to be regarded as legal rules among other legal rules. In that sense you might say, that judges following precedents are doing nothing different but following an established legal rule. In order to give a better understanding in how the system of precedent in the English Legal System really works, it is necessary to have a look at the ratio decidendi and the obiter dictum, both of which are part of a decision, as the distinction between these is vital for the system of precedent to work properly. The ratio decidendi is an opinion of a judge, which is necessary for the decision in the particular case, and that, which is obiter dictum, remarks in a judgement, which is made merely in passing. But what do we need this distinction for? The system of precedent requires each judge to look at previous cases in order to get to know how to deal with a new, recent case. It is easy to imagine, that the growing number of cases produces a large amount of decisions. If a judge could choose among different cases and different parts of a case, he could easily just pick up the part of a decision he is intended to use in order to reach a certain decision. Therefore there would not be any problem to find a quotation in a precious case, which enables the judge to make a decision in the way he wants to. Thus there is the need for the requirement to use just the ratio decidendi. It makes the judgements much more precise and predictable, as it requires each judge not to find just useful arguments but the legal reasons for a particular previous decision, because it are those, which are binding.

          1.2 The practice of precedent in a civil law jurisdiction: Germany

          In civil law jurisdictions there is not such a system of precedent as it can be found in the English legal system. In Germany, for example, there is no precedent at all.
          As a result of the German experiences with the legal system during the Third Reich, the judge of modern Germany has every freedom in his decisions. As long as his judgements are within the legal framework, especially the "Grundgesetz" (constitution), he is provided by the "Grundgesetz" (Articles 97 I and 20 III) with the biggest independence in his work, being bound only by statute and law, whilst previous decisions in other (similar) cases are not binding on the courts. Thus judicial decisions are not a binding formal source of law at all.
          But, in fact, there are some decisions of the "Bundesgerichtshof (BGH)" or "Bundesverfassungsgericht (BVerfG)" (Federal Constitutional Court), which in practise are almost binding, at least as far as the interpretation of the statutes is concerned. But, and I have to lay emphasis on this, the judges are completely free to interpret the statutes in a way different from the one the BGH proposes, as long as they obey the rules of interpretation and as long as they do it within the legal frame of statute and constitution. Here you can see, that the decisions of the highest German courts are not binding in the sense a precedent is binding; the situation a judge is in when he has to make a decision is a completely different one. At first he looks at the new case, then at the statutes and afterwards, if he wants to have a clear picture of how a particular part of a statute might be understood, he tries with the help of "Kommentaren" (commentaries) to discern the general trend of decisions on this particular point including the decisions of the highest courts, if there are any related to the statute in question. Of course, most of the courts in Germany follow those decisions in their way of interpreting certain unclear statutes or those, which contain "unbestimmte, auslegungsbeduerftige Rechtsbegriffe". These are paragraphs, which need a certain framework to be useable, and this framework consists of an interpretation, which is related to some kind of recent understanding of a certain word, the society as such has, a good example is paragraph 242 BGB (performance according to good faith). These "unbestimmte Rechtsbegriffe" make the statutes quite flexible, but they can be misused as well, as you can see in the fact that the "Buergerliches Gesetzbuch" is in use for 101 years now; it is not difficult to see, that this period includes the Third Reich with its inhuman ways of interpreting the law.
                    • [list][list][...]
      [/quote]
[/list][/list]

Serafina demanded an apology of Kor_Dahar_Master.

I wonder if I'll get one of her. After all, she was very determinate in her conclusions:
Serafina wrote:Bullshit. And you claim that you have studied law?
These decisions were made by the bloody BVerfG (supreme court again). You claim to be a lawyer and do not understand legal precedence? Or the significance of a Grundsatzentscheidung?
Searfina wrote:Fuck off, AVOCADO. If you actually are a lawyer, i hope someone fires your damn emotionless ass and revokes your license. You deserve it for not understanding legal precedence alone.
Yes, some of these insults are hurting - schnief.

And it continues:
Serafina wrote:Are you a scientist? You yourself claim to be a lawyer. Lawyers are NOT scientists.
Ever heard of legal science? In Germany it is called Rechtswissenschaften. And coincidentally that's exactly what I have studied. I feel insulted to not be considered a scientist.
Wyrm wrote:You didn't even know the precidents regarding the very law you cite that "enables" to call Sarafina a man contrary to her wishes. If you had to go to court regarding this law that you didn't research, you would have gotten your ass handed to you, and your client would have been legally skewered by it. Your client relies on you to give competent legal advice and representation. Knowing the legal precident is VITAL to good representation. So yes, you are an incompetent lawyer, if you are one at all.
We have thousands and thousands of laws in Germany. No lawyer can know all laws. That's an impossibility.

It's as if one would demand from each physician to be at the same time a specialist in Anesthesiology, Cardiology, Cardiovascular surgery, Clinical laboratory sciences, Clinical Neurophysiology, Dermatology, Emergency medicine, Endocrinology, Family Medicine, Gastroenterology, General surgery, Geriatrics, Hematology, Hepatology, Infectious disease, Intensive care medicine, Maxillofacial surgery, Nephrology, Neurology, Neurosurgery, Obstetrics and gynecology, Oncology, Ophthalmology, Orthopedic surgery, Otolaryngology, Palliative care, Pathology, Pediatrics, Pediatric surgery, Physical medicine and rehabilitation, Plastic surgery, Proctology, Psychiatry, Pulmonology, Radiology, Rheumatology, Surgical oncology, Thoracic surgery, Transplant surgery, Trauma surgery, Urology and Vascular surgery.

I mean, get real: What to you think how much relevance the Transsexuellengesetz can have for a lawyer?

There are estimated to be 10.000 transsexuals in Germany and only 300 of them in a year are willing to do what is necessary to have their gender recognized by law as the by the transsexuality imprinted gender [O].

At the same time, there are over 150.000 attorneys, more than 20.000 judges and more than 5.000 public prosecutors in Germany, not counting thousands of legal advisers and corporate counsels. These all are lawyers.

Only if there would be a transsexual client who has a legal problem regarding that law, an attorney would start to read that law and look for commentaries and adjudication.

To find the law in the internet is easy.

But to find commentaries and adjudication is not so easy.

For this there are special databases or literature to which one has to have access.

Usually attorneys do not have these things at their home and usually such a research is not done in a few minutes. It is very extensive and very expensive work.

After all, the attorney is not knowing in advance what he is looking for at all. He does for example not know, before he has looked, if there are any court decisions or legal opinions already to this very small topic he has never dealt with before.

So excuse me if I'm not ready to do such research for free in my spare time.
Last edited by Who is like God arbour on Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:49 am, edited 14 times in total.

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