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Serafina
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Re: Transreality

Post by Serafina » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:28 pm

Do you not get it?, they are not saying that you should have a lump on the side of your skull to fit the extra size. The STRUCTURE of the brain is made up of parts and those parts differ in size depending on if you are male or female.
No, that's not what the study (IIRC, since you stopped linking your sources) said.
Instead, it was talking about the volume of the whole brain. Which is larger in men and smaller in women. And hormone treatment changes it accordingly.
The study was not talking about a change in structure. You can NOT infer that from it, either - you are a gardener, not a scientists (neither am i, but i am not inferring anything).
A MTF brain is naturally and mostly MALE but the hormones alter some of its parts so some shrink and some grow so its more like a female type brain, we know that to be FACT.
Actually, given that female is the standard phenotype and that there is no general difference between male and female for most of the brain - if you want to gender it, you have to call it female.
Calling it neutral is better, since it is no different between male and female.
As such the MTF brain cpould not have been female in the first place because if it had been how could the hormones have changed it into a more female type.
And you are ignoring my point that further alteration by hormones does not disprove the existence of an initial difference, which HAS been measured.
That you do not see that possibility just shows that your mind is clouded and your judgment impaired - you know my opinion on the reason for that.

So now you are telling what i HAVE to do because a few drugs and mutilations make you a little less male and a bit more female?.
No, i am saying that your personal "opinion" is not validated by science. Get some reading comprehension.
Mine is. Transsexual people have a better life if they are treated according to their gender. There is evidence that transsexuality is based on both early post-birth and pre-birth development - in other words, that you can't help being transsexual. There is a VAST amount of evidence that the gender identity is not changed by transition. And there is an even vaster amount of evidence that Transsexuality is not curable by same-sex hormone treatment or by psychological means.
In other words - treating transsexual people according to their gender, including fully equal rights and aiding them with transition is the only humane way. Protesting against that is inhumane and cruel, as is discrimination based on their transsexual status.
You are advocating all of the latter.

I made no demand, i just will treat you as such because you are closer to male than you will ever be female and because i do not like you.
In other words, you behave like an asshole and ignore scientific evidence.

Vey much supported actually.
No. If it was purely behavioral, the twin studies would have shown a much lower congruence than ~50%. Again, you are ignoring science.
Very little and VERY inconclusive, certainly social and environmental effects have been shown to over ride such things considerably.
Actually, no. More than 20 years of attempts to "cure" transsexuality failed. Transsexuality is as "uncurable" as homosexuality.
No evidence is ignored ALL evidence is used....it is you who makes leaps from inconsistant material and weak speculation while ignoring counter evidence and facts.
Your theory ignores the evidence for pre-birth influences provided by twin studies, as well as the studies that showed pre-existing female brain structures. Mine doesn't, nor does it ignore any other evidence.
No discrimination mearly accuracy.
That claim is bullshit. Your policy would increase suffering in a specific group of people of which you admitted that you find them disgusting, threatening and deranged.
If that's not discrimination, i don't know what is.
Playing the victim and constructing strawmen and false accusations to try and squeeze in a insult past the rules and claiming like you were "FORCED" is not gonna work.
It is my "opinion". Of course, i have evidence that you are bigoted.



And the facts remain unchanged:
Your personal negative opinion against transsexual people is unsupported by any science or logic. It would directly cause suffering of innocent people and is therefore morally abhorrent.

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Re: Transreality

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:54 pm

Serafina wrote: The study was not talking about a change in structure. You can NOT infer that from it, either - you are a gardener, not a scientists (neither am i, but i am not inferring anything).

And you are ignoring my point that further alteration by hormones does not disprove the existence of an initial difference, which HAS been measured.
The study cleary said that hormone treatment increased/decreased parts of the brain to a more female setup and less male......Read the word "MORE" female setup as in still not fully female but closer, also meaning the starting point was not as female as you claim not evem close.

No, i am saying that your personal "opinion" is not validated by science.
My opinion is validated by all the facts all the sciences have available, yours is coloured by personal bias and delusion.

In other words, you behave like an asshole and ignore scientific evidence.
No i am behaving in accordance with all the sciences and all the info they give and ignoring your appeals to emo, appeals that you disregarded not so long ago as not important when i insulted you on ASVS.
No. If it was purely behavioral, the twin studies would have shown a much lower congruence than ~50%. Again, you are ignoring science.
50% supports my points not yours, that is VERY clear.
Actually, no. More than 20 years of attempts to "cure" transsexuality failed.
You mean it failed on those not wanting to be cured?...yea right hardly science considering the "transexual narrative" that you and others use and abuse.

In fact Kenneth Zucker has had a huge amount of success with his treatment of children who show signs of transgendered behaviour. In one group of 50 all but 10% were essentially cured and now live happy lives within their natural physical and biological gender, older individuals are less willing and as such do not respond well to treatment.

His overall sucess rate is roughly 80-90%.

Zucker has published almost 100 articles in peer-reviewed journals. These articles have been cited over 2000 times, with an h-index of 20. In 2007 Zucker was chosen to be a member of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Gender Identity, Gender Variance, and Intersex Conditions, and in 2008 was named chair of the American Psychiatric Association workgroup on "Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders" for the 2012 edition of the DSM-5. He previously served on workgroups for the DSM-IV and the DSM-IV-TR.
Your theory ignores the evidence for pre-birth influences provided by twin studies
Wrong twin studies fail to show anything conclusive other than the fact it cannot be biological or it would be 100% or close instead of 50% or less as it is.
as well as the studies that showed pre-existing female brain structures.
Failed studies due to poorly chosen test subjects and faulty conclusions about hormones NOT effecting the areas in question when they have been proven to do so.

HOWEVER a later study did show a slight differance in a single hormone producing part of the brain but that is a LONG WAY from and not even close to transexuals having "simply a female brain in a male body" as you claimed.
That claim is bullshit. Your policy would increase suffering in a specific group of people of which you admitted that you find them disgusting, threatening and deranged.
I find you disgusting as a individual due to your lies and distortions, quite deranged due to your obsession and not in the least bit threatening.

If that's not discrimination, i don't know what is.
In your case its accuracy.

Your personal negative opinion against transsexual people is unsupported by any science or logic. It would directly cause suffering of innocent people and is therefore morally abhorrent.
My negative opinions are against you and there are a considerable quantity of them and they grow every time you post more attacks, lies and distortions..

My opinions on transexuals in general is mearly accurate due to ALL the facts and studies presented and researched i would support a mtf transgender the same basic human rights that i have.

Serafina
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Re: Transreality

Post by Serafina » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:18 pm

Kenneth Zucker?
You GOT to be kidding me. Unfortunately, you probably aren't.
You are advocating the opinion of that pet of the gay-reformation, "ex-gay" movement?
The guy whose "treatment" included severe punishment for boys if they play with girls, talk about girls, draw pictures of them etc.?

It's not like i needed more evidence for your hostile attitude towards transsexuality, but that you support that guy is more than enough.

NONE of his studies monitor the patients long and closely enough. But given that his methods resemble ex-gay therapy, we can draw conclusions from there:
They are not cured, their personality is merely forcibly suppressed instead of cured. We do know that ex-gay therapy causes a great amount of other psychological problems, yet Zucker never monitors for those, merely for the presence of "disgusting cross-gender activity" (his words). Due to this, we do not have data on
-long-term success
-psychological damage done by the treatment

Here is a description of his methods:
Dr. Zucker's suggested treatment for GID is problematic and harsh: Bradley, now almost six, would not only be denied access to girls' toys or be allowed to pretend he was female, but wouldn't even be allowed to play with girls. His favourite toys were dolls, which his mother was instructed to confiscate. When he drew rainbow-coloured pictures of princesses, he was told to draw boys instead. Dr. Zucker warned Bradley's mother that her son would be rejected by both male and female peer groups as he grew older if he wasn't made to feel comfortable with his born biological gender.

The ultimate goal, both by Dr. Zucker and Bradley's family, is obviously well-meaning: to help prevent the boy from becoming a societal outcast. The side effects, however, are that the individual is taught to fear his or her feelings, and that he or she must fight against what comes naturally, seemingly at the expense of that child's happiness and to the benefit of everyone else's comfort. Which then raises the question of what society finds more alarming—a kid who wishes to live quietly as the opposite gender, or 10-year-olds dishing out bloody street justice in a playground? Given the choice between the two, most parents would likely prefer their child to be the violent playground thug.
(bolding mine)

Your claim that Zucker published "over a hundred publications'" is a LIE, according to Pubmed. Rather, he participated in 49 papers, and in most of them neither as first or second author.

Zuckers method is NOT used anywhere but in North America, the only region where ex-gay therapies have any meaningful support. They are NOT part of the international standards of care, they are NOT part of the DSMIV. And his findings are not reported by anyone but him and his team.

Your support of this person is disgusting. You are clearly hostile towards transsexuality and transsexual persons. You can claim that it is only towards me, but you have argued in favor of broad "treatments" for transsexuality in general, such as:
-forced same-sex hormone treatment. Not only is that very dangerous (since it would rise hormonal levels to dangerous amounts) but it will also ruin any chance for a later happy life due to the effects it will have on the body. It also has no scientific evidence behind it.
-Forced brain surgery for transsexual people. That surgery would most likely destroy a larger part of their personality and cause further, irreversible damage. Your appeal to advanced super-science to solve that is merely ludicrous.
-Forcing children to undergo a therapy that is near-identical to "ex-gay" therapy which has been shown to be psychologically damaging and non-successful.


Your opinion on transsexuality is just disgusting. You do not care the least for the well-being of those who are affected and propose severely damaging treatments just to force them to conform with society. It's opinions like yours who suppressed, castrated, killed and outlawed homosexuality, you are doing the same with transsexuality.


Edit:
The American Psychologist association has stated it's strong disagreement with Corrective Aversion Therapy. Zuckers method is practically identical.

Kor_Dahar_Master
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Re: Transreality

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:02 pm

Serafina wrote:Kenneth Zucker?
You GOT to be kidding me. Unfortunately, you probably aren't.
You are advocating the opinion of that pet of the gay-reformation, "ex-gay" movement?
The guy whose "treatment" included severe punishment for boys if they play with girls, talk about girls, draw pictures of them etc.?
Propaganda by ignorant hatemongers, if he was like that he would be arrested and kicked out of the medical community NOT in 2008 named chair of the American Psychiatric Association workgroup on "Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders" for the 2012 edition of the DSM-5.

PROVE ABUSE OR CONCEED.

Ill accept arrest reports or other unbised material from legal sources......,not from unqualified individuals exhagerating or the ravings from emotionally unstable mentally ill individuals prone to killing themselves.......

A 80-90% success rate VS a high rate of suicide for those who do not get cured = WIN in my book.



Zuckers method is NOT used anywhere but in North America, the only region where ex-gay therapies have any meaningful support.
According to a response released by American Psychiatric Association, Zucker does not advocate reparative therapy for transgender adults or for trans youth in all cases, and he opposes change therapy for gays under all circumstances.

PROVE HE IS USING EX-GAY METHODS ON CHILDREN AND HAVE HIM ARRESTED THEN.
Your claim that Zucker published "over a hundred publications'" is a LIE, according to Pubmed. Rather, he participated in 49 papers, and in most of them neither as first or second author.
This is exactly what i said no more no less stop constructing you own statments instead of using mine AGAIN.....


According to the Web of Science, Zucker has published almost 100 articles in peer-reviewed journals. These articles have been cited over 2000 times, with an h-index of 20.



-forced same-sex hormone treatment.
-Forced brain surgery for transsexual people.
-Forcing children to undergo a therapy.
I am forcing nothing, prove im forcing these things or conceed.

Kor_Dahar_Master
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Re: Transreality

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:39 pm

double post.
Last edited by Kor_Dahar_Master on Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Serafina
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Re: Transreality

Post by Serafina » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:43 pm

Propaganda by ignorant hatemongers, if he was like that he would be arrested and kicked out of the medical community NOT in 2008 named chair of the American Psychiatric Association workgroup on "Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders" for the 2012 edition of the DSM-5.

PROVE ABUSE OR CONCEED.

Ill accept arrest reports or other unbised material from legal sources......,not from unqualified individuals exhagerating or the ravings from emotionally unstable mentally ill individuals prone to killing themselves.......
You are really that ignorant, are you?
A 80-90% success rate VS a high rate of suicide for those who do not get cured = WIN in my book.
You have no evidence that that "success rate" is not identical to the claimed success rates on the identical "ex-gay" therapies. Where the long-term success rate is lower than the number of bisexual people and thus easily explained by bisexual people merely not acting on it and limiting their attraction to "proper" people.
Ex-gay therapies have also been shown to be damaging and suppressive.
Given that Zuckers method is IDENTICAL, it is very likely that this is also the case.
You have no actual success rate.

People who perform "ex-gay"-therapy on children are ALSO not arrested. That doesn't change the fact that it is harmful, it merely proves the widepsread bigotry in north-american politics.
Zuckers therapy IS identical to ex-gay therapy. It's all about removing "cross-gender" behavior and enforcing "same-gender" behavior.

According to a response released by American Psychiatric Association, Zucker does not advocate reparative therapy for transgender adults or for trans youth in all cases, and he opposes change therapy for gays under all circumstances.
Yes. So what? He is still doing it on children.

This is exactly what i said no more no less stop constructing you own statments instead of using mine AGAIN.....


According to the Web of Science, Zucker has published almost 100 articles in peer-reviewed journals. These articles have been cited over 2000 times, with an h-index of 20.
Link or it doesn't happen. I have linked to my PubMed search, you never link to anything.

I am forcing nothing, prove im forcing these things or conceed.
Oh, really?
You stated in the first two cases that you would advocate it as the primary measure. You advocated using same-sex hormones as a CONDITION that has to be fulfilled before any actual treatment (read: transition) should be allowed.
That IS FORCING. In the first case, it's force because they can't receive necessary medical treatment otherwise..
In the second case, you denied them the right to decide on their own because they are "diseased". In the third case, it is performed on children who can't fight back.
All of those are done by force.

Zuckers treatment is very likely to be harmful.
First of all, it forces children to ignore their own desires and feelings in order to conform. Suppressed feelings are one of (if not the) main causes for psychological problems. This will hold true even if it would actually "cure" transsexuality.
Second, it enforces extreme gender stereotypes.
Assigned boys are not allowed ANY contact with girls or "feminine" items or behavior. They are encouraged to fall into a male, aggressive stereotype and not to express feelings.
Assigned girls are not allowed ANY contact with boys or "male" items or behavior.
They are encouraged to fall into a female, subservient stereotype and to accept male dominance.
Third, Zucker has NEVER shown that his methods are NOT harmful (if he has, show it). Given that identical treatments in ex-gay therapy are known to cause great psychological harm to children, it is very likely that his treatment will do the same.

Zucker has no independent proof for the success of his method, he has no long-term observations and no proof that he does no harm.

Conclusively, Zuckers "treatment" should not be advocated for wide-spread application unless:
-Independent, long-term observation shows it's actual success
-Rigorous, independent, long-term observation shows that it does not have detrimental psychological effects.
No independent research has been done. No long-term research has been done. Zucker does not even test for negative side effects.


Again, you are advocating a method that is very likely to cause great harm in order to force transsexual people to conform to your stereotypes.

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Re: Transreality

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:00 pm

Serafina wrote: You are really that ignorant, are you?
Is that your entire argument?.

All these ppl and boards obviously support him and accept his work and expertise.

Based on his collaboration with Susan Bradley, Zucker is considered an international authority in the field of gender identity disorder in children (GDIC) and in adolescents.


He previously served on workgroups for the DSM-IV and the DSM-IV-TR.

He was named editor-in-chief of Archives of Sexual Behavior in 2001.


In 2007 Zucker was chosen to be a member of the American Psychological Association Task Force on Gender Identity, Gender Variance, and Intersex Conditions.

In 2008 was named chair of the American Psychiatric Association workgroup on "Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders" for the 2012 edition of the DSM-5.
BUT YOU SAY THEY ARE ALL IGNORANT AS WELL AS MYSELF??????????.........

You have nothing but your hate and your delusions do you?.

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Re: Transreality

Post by Serafina » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:02 pm

Show independent research that confirms his findings and that his method is not harmful. Link your sources.
And respond to my actual arguments.

Otherwise, this is just another one of your "let's force transsexual people to conform"-drivels.

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Re: Transreality

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:06 pm

Serafina wrote:Show independent research that confirms his findings and that his method is not harmful. Link your sources.
THE PROOF IS IN THE PROMOTIONS.
Serafina wrote:And respond to my actual arguments.
Hate filled strawmen with no grounds or basis other than your bias and emotional instability are not arguments.





Can you really not actually see how mentally disturbed you are?.




Here i have a doctor that is credited with a 80-90% success rate for curing individuals that you claim suffer throughout their young life and sometimes longer and are prone to comitting suicide in later life. And got a massivly important positions over his carreer including the chair for the 2012 edition of the DSM-5 because of his work in the field.

And your reply to me thinking that a 80-90% success rate stopping this suffering and death IS...........
Your support of this person is disgusting. You are clearly hostile towards transsexuality and transsexual persons.
YOU NEED HELP.

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Re: Transreality

Post by Serafina » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:16 pm

THE PROOF IS IN THE PROMOTIONS.
Not it isn't. That shows that other people accept him as an expert. By that logic, Peter Duisberg (an AIDS-denialist) is ALSO right.
A high position says nothing about the quality of ones research.
Here i have a doctor that is credited with a 80-90% success rate for curing individuals that you claim suffer throughout their young life and sometimes longer and are prone to comitting suicide in later life. And got a massivly important positions over his carreer including the chair for the 2012 edition of the DSM-5 because of his work in the field.
He credits HIMSELF with a 80-90% success rate.
He does NOT show actual long-term success, he merely claims it.
His positions do not validate or invalidate his research.


If his findings were genuine, he would have independent verification, especially in the light of his prominent position. But i can not find any such independent verification.
There is also NO PROOF that his methods are not harmful.
ADDRESS THAT, instead of dodging it.
YOU NEED HELP.
I have got help, thank you very much. From a qualified psychologists with thirty years of experience and equally long-term observations. I think that tops the ravings of a gardener.
And that psychologist has determined that i am female, that i am mentally healthy and not "mentally disturbed".

Of course, you NEED your ad-hominem attacks, since you have no actual argument. Else, you would post and link the independent verifications of Zuckers findings.

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Re: Transreality

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:22 pm

Serafina wrote: There is also NO PROOF that his methods are not harmful.
ADDRESS THAT, instead of dodging it.

PROVE WHAT?...A NEGATIVE?.

IS THIS IT AGAIN?, IS THIS ALL YOU HAVE JUST LIKE THE BRAIN ISSUE AND BIOLOGY AND THE SOCIAL ISSUE?????.


THE BURDEN IS YOURS, YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING BUT STRAWMAN AND TRY TO SHIFT THE BURDEN OF PROOF NOT ONLY TO ME BUT ALSO TO PROVE A NEGATIVE..

YOU PROVE HIM WRONG, IVE GOT HIM WITH QUALIFICATIONS, RESPECT AND ACCLAIM FROM HIS PEERS, HIS WORK EARNING HIM GLOBAL RENOUN AND POSITIONS IN THE HIGHEST OF AREAS IN HIS FIELD.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE???...WHAT DO YOU HAVE????...

SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS ON HIM DISPROVING HIM COME ON DO IT, PROVE HE DOES HARM COME ON DO IT.

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Re: Transreality

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:35 pm

Serafina wrote:Zuckers treatment is very likely to be harmful.
First of all, it forces children to ignore their own desires and feelings in order to conform. Suppressed feelings are one of (if not the) main causes for psychological problems. This will hold true even if it would actually "cure" transsexuality.
Second, it enforces extreme gender stereotypes.
Assigned boys are not allowed ANY contact with girls or "feminine" items or behavior. They are encouraged to fall into a male, aggressive stereotype and not to express feelings.
Assigned girls are not allowed ANY contact with boys or "male" items or behavior.
They are encouraged to fall into a female, subservient stereotype and to accept male dominance.
Third, Zucker has NEVER shown that his methods are NOT harmful (if he has, show it).
So you assume it is likely to be harmful, and you require other people to prove it is not, without even actually first presenting that his method is dangerous?
Given that identical treatments in ex-gay therapy are known to cause great psychological harm to children, it is very likely that his treatment will do the same.
Study please.
Zucker has no independent proof for the success of his method, he has no long-term observations and no proof that he does no harm.

Conclusively, Zuckers "treatment" should not be advocated for wide-spread application unless:
-Independent, long-term observation shows it's actual success
-Rigorous, independent, long-term observation shows that it does not have detrimental psychological effects.
No independent research has been done. No long-term research has been done. Zucker does not even test for negative side effects.
I don't know about you, but shouldn't we get proof of adverse effects by now, since it seemingly started in the mid 70s?

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Re: Transreality

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:41 pm

I'm back. Before I go combing through the pile of reports on my virtual desk, I have a post for WILGA.
WILGA wrote:I think it would be better if you does not quote me but state your opinion and explain it. It would be the first time after all that you describe it en detail.
If you prefer, I shall begin with the beginning and organise the topic. Most of these facts I have previously provided links for; I will try to make sure to source anything new.

I have earlier explained at some length how (social) gender is a performance, and will omit repeating that explanation here for the sake of brevity.

Gender and sex in language

The truth of the matter is that across the scope of all sciences and all use of English, "gender" and "sex" are interchangeable terms. The distinction between a social gender and a biological sex is specific to certain traditions, and is not a distinction that "average" uninformed humans make. Thus, no descriptive appeal can be made to claim using either one is the "true way of talking." The language is changing, and we cannot say that the pronoun "she" in English refers to biological sex any more than it refers to social gender. There is the question of which use is more fundamental, and that I will address a little later.

In German, the linguistic truth is more and less flexible. It is true that you must immediately classify a noun and refer to it by gender constantly. However, I think there are three important considerations which dictate that the German language itself does not present an obstacle to accepting a transsexual as being their destination sex.

First, pronouns, articles, et cetera all relate to the grammatical gender of a noun in use. To refer to a FtM transsexual as male is as simple as referring to her as "der Nils" - the proper noun "Nils" is quite definitely male - and holding to the correct rules of grammar for choosing a pronoun to substitute for "Nils" (er), endings to place on adjectives, articles to use, et cetera. Or "der Transman," perhaps, for a non-proper noun.

Second, existing German nouns make it perfectly clear that the relationship between grammatical gender and sex of any kind - biological or social - is weak. Girl, wife, cat, dog, animal, person, man - it is no more a hardship even for the most old-fashioned German to have a noun, say, "der Transman" refer to FtM transsexuals while being masculine than to have "das Weib" be neuter or "die Katze" feminine.

Third, Germans are willing to apparently break their own grammatical rules on the "anomalous" German nouns. As I pointed out earlier, we could very well consider this an implicit substitution of another noun, perhaps a proper noun, that has not been spoken; but in that case, we are back to the first, which is simply choosing an appropriate noun.

Biological truths

There is no specific seat of gender identity. We can have XX individuals who seem quite male, and XY individuals who seem quite female. We can have individuals whose genitalia are unclear.

In the brain, the seat of personality, male and female "types" are differentiated, but the variation between male and female is not, from any of the studies thus far discussed, greater than the variation within male and female, and most of these variations are linked to one another. There are a significant number of women whose brains are more "masculine" than the male average, and a significant number of men whose brains are more "feminine" than the female average. Eyeballing the data, I would guess these fractions to be between 10-20%.

Even if slightly lower than that, it is much more common than transsexuality. It is therefore apparent that a feminised brain may more or less successfully act a male social role and vice versa. Finding biological correlates among transsexuals is difficult for two reasons: The first is that there are a small number of transsexuals to study, and the second is that there may not be only one singular type of transsexualism.

In the rest of the body, there is little that cannot be in principle changed. For all the parts of the body that functionally matter in the everyday life of a modern technological society, it is a similar story. The difference between men and women is relatively small, enough that many women may act reasonably as a man - a short man, perhaps, with little upper body strength, but still as a man, in everyday life. In time, when our biological technology advances, we may be able to grow functional testes and ovaries et cetera and address the questions of reproductive functions. I have no doubt that the imperfections that currently exist in medical sex reassignment will all eventually be fixed in time.

Birth and development

In the beginning, we are each born and, at that point in time, classified as male or female. In general, on the order of 0.1% of us have been "clarified" into one or the other sex surgically upon birth. Including various interesting genetic and anatomical conditions, perhaps as many as 1% of us are at least a little bit ambiguous with respect to our "true" biological sex. Having been assigned a sex, we are then treated as that sex immediately.

We respond by acting in a more masculine or feminine fashion. It is true that the biological variation in physical masculinity and feminity does drive visible differences in more aggressive or more cooperative play from an early age; it is also true, however, that there are quite a few girls who will choose to play with masculine toys and quite a few boys who will choose to play with feminine toys. This is more a question of brain type than anything else.

It is true that given full information, children are fairly good at determining gender, but even under the more generous studies done on the topic (link), a majority of young children determine gender primarily by clothes, activities, and accessories rather than genitals. (Less generous studies are also available. I have chosen to link to one of the major studies that attacked the slow acquisition of gender constancy).

While they immediately master the ability to identify the social gender of an individual, they must be taught gender constancy. Thus, while I contend that most adults do not separate a biological sex and social gender, the psychological development literature is clear that children learn social gender first, and only several years later come to an understanding of biological sex and bind the two together. Between the two concepts - biological and social sexes - the social is more fundamental than the biological.

This is perhaps worth repetition. We acquire a sense of social masculinity and femininity, on average, when 2-3 years old. We learn biological male and female, on average, when 5-6 years old. If we prioritize the latter over the former, it is only because we are taught to. If we come to believe that sex is both intrinsic and permanent, it is also because we are taught this. It is very easy to imagine children being taught other lessons.

The larger social context (Sexual apartheid)

Gender roles are to a very large degree tied to sexuality. It has been - and, in fact, largely remains - masculine to be attracted to women, and feminine to be attracted to men. Gender roles have also been tied to many other things as well - occupations, economic opportunities, and rights. It is only possible for a pre-operative transsexual to be transgressive by behaving in the opposite manner from that expected by his or her biologically apparent sex because we still choose to make such a difference between the social roles of men and women. Indeed, any individual who transgresses against gendered behaviour is likely to be punished. The boy who plays with dolls is teased for it. The woman who occupies space in the manner of a man is whispered about; she is uncouth and unseemly.

If there was little difference between male and female fashion, there would be no "dressing as a man" or "dressing as a woman." If there were little difference between male and female social roles, men and women would earn the same respect, the same money, and there would not be "walking like a woman" or "sitting like a man." The performance of gender is only important in a society where the dichotomy between men and women is important.

Rightly or wrongly, we live in a world where men and women are treated very differently. Women are sexy. Men are authoritative. And we separate them at every opportunity. There are for all practical intents and purposes separate male and female societies which happen to share common spaces, divided in a sort of sexual apartheid. We have reformed many of the grosser iniquities, but the separation that remains not only causes difficulties for those whose biologies or psychologies or social inclinations straddle or cross lines, but continually reinforces inequality.

Perhaps, in time, we will come to a world where we are sure men are getting the short end of the stick. Perhaps we will not. But the division is not essential in a technological age, and by forcing everyone to remain in the encampments they were sorted into (rightly or wrongly) by those signing their birth certificates, we are enabling that division.

Allowing anyone to choose which gender role they wish to participate, for whatever reason, is several positive things: A diplomatic exchange between the sexes that seem somfetimes to war against each other; a safety valve; a sanity valve. The utility of crossing over gender roles is not limited to those who feel they were born on the wrong side of the fence, which is to say transsexuals; at times, I have suspected that if every man spent a week acting the feminine role in everyday life, and every woman a week in the masculine role, that our societies would be greatly improved by the greater understanding of what expectations and treatment both halves face.

I say we have an obligation to allow people to transform their bodies into the bodies they wish they were, and to allow people to at least attempt any social role they choose. It is impossible to have such a society without adequately supporting transsexuals' shift in gender identity. By supporting the ability to change gender roles, we affirm the principle that a child may grow up to be anything they wish to be, and help enable a future society in which the only inequalities between men and women lie simply in their bodies rather in the respect they are given.

The medical context

Why is transsexualism classed as a disorder? Why does it remain classed as a disorder? There is one simple reason why we have a listing of "gender identity disorder" in psychiatric manuals. It is because within the social context described above, where you must conform to one or the other genders of behaviour, those who insist upon acting the wrong way are broken. It is, in other words, something which arises strictly from the social context of enforcing a sexual apartheid. Within a truly genderblind social context, we could not possibly consider transsexuality a disorder.

And yet while the classification of transsexuality as a variety of mental illness can be considered to demean transsexuals by saying there is something wrong about them which needs to be either "treated" (by enabling them to cross the lines of physical characteristics as well as social action) or "cured" (by convincing them that they belong in the gender they were assigned to at birth), it also enables transsexuals by granting them access to hormone therapy and sex reassignment surgery. Advocacy groups are thus not unified on the topic; to remove GID from psychiatric manuals means that SRS becomes elective cosmetic surgery.

Thus, both critics and advocates of transsexuals have reasons for wanting GID to stay on the books as a disorder. Its persistence there as a disorder tells us little.

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Re: Transreality

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:00 am

Well! Let's go down the list. Actually, given five days of near-complete absence, things are proceeding more civilly than I had feared.

First, Kor, you have spent quite a bit of time ad hominem Serafina. I am well and fully convinced that you believe Serafina to be several varieties of deranged, j]ust as I am well and fully convinced that she is calling you a bigot, but it is not particularly helpful. You may remember that just five days ago, I noted that you were on the three warning mark, and so now it is your turn to take a two day vacation from discussion.

Serafina, I appreciate that in the last five days, you have only in one post called Kor a bigot, and managed to do so obliquely rather than directly. You still have a ways to go in learning how to convince, but you have made some progress regarding your conduct. I hope it continues to improve.

WILGA, I would appreciate it if you could manage to avoid talking about Serafina in the third person until our discussion concludes. I'm still of the opinion that it is rather rude to refer to Serafina as "he" and "him" constantly. I will recommend to you as possible alternatives ambiguous pronouns, gender-neutral pronouns, repeated use of names instead of pronouns, et cetera, which I believe we have established is practical in English if occasionally awkward-sounding.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Transreality

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:17 am

JMS wrote: Biological truths

There is no specific seat of gender identity. We can have XX individuals who seem quite male, and XY individuals who seem quite female.
Like, what? 1 out of 1000?
Seems like a typical case of an exception that proves the rule.
We can have individuals whose genitalia are unclear.
Rare, abnormal cases. Now for these cases, obvious typical sex related physical attributes will be used, along cultural codes, to call the individual a he or she.
This ties with my point about the necessity of the alteration to an individual's plastic to be good enough to convince members of the society about the targeted perceived gender.

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