All about Serafina (Split)

[Who is like God arbour]

Concerning the German grammar: look here and here.

Unlike English, which has lost almost all forms of declension of nouns and adjectives, German still inflects nouns, adjectives and pronouns into four grammatical cases. The cases are the nominative (Nominativ/Werfall), genitive (Genitiv/Wessenfall), dative (Dativ/Wemfall), and accusative (Akkusativ/Wenfall). The case of a particular noun depends on the grammatical function of the noun in the sentence.

[...]

And it does not stop at the nouns and articles. It is the same with the German pronouns. There is no way to speak German without deciding for a grammar gender.

There's no way to cut. The only time I think this is easy stuff is when I remember my latin classes.

Latin is even more complex than the German language.

But the point is that a native speaker does not really contemplates these rules. They are learned from the beginning and to change these rules is not so easy.

Yes, they evolve as every language evolves. But that needs time.

And neither in German nor in any other language (I know) are grammar genders chosen according to the wish of an individual person.

The grammar gender is always chosen according to more or less objective and dependable criteria: You see a person, you try to determine the sex or whatever else is deciding for the grammar gender from what you see and then you chose the grammar gender.

If the appearance has deceived you, e.g. the appearance of a tomboy or a sissy, you may have chosen the wrong grammar gender but, as soon as you know about your mistake, you will use the correct grammar gender without thinking about it.

Although a girl may look and behave like a boy, you will see her as a girl and will use a feminine grammar gender as soon as you know that she is a girl. And the same goes for a boy who looks and behaves like a girl.

And now imagine what would happen if you chose the grammar gender under consideration of the wish of each person you wish to talk with or about.

I mean, if the wish to be adressed accordingly to the gender (about which you usually can only speculate) is possible, why not other wishes too? What is if the next person is not a transsexual but wishes to be a member of the other sex nevertheless? Or someone wants to be a neuter. Or someone thinks he is neither a man nor a woman but also no neuter (a third gender)?

You would have to ask each person what they wish and have to remember it. You even have to create new grammar genders to fulfill the wishes of some people. That's totally impractical.

That's why it is done in no language unless you are forced to it.

[Serafina]

Wow, Serafina needed only 49 minutes and 22 seconds to reply to my post.

Get some good software.

Beware! That strawman is so dry that it could easily catch fire.

Again, demanding that you back up your own point is not fallacious.
You do not explain why it is supposed to be a strawman. You just claim that it is.
In fact, you outright ignore everything i wrote, making pointless ad hominem (see above) and singing "lalala, i can't hear you".

Between my second post and Serafina's reply passed only 31 minutes and 28 seconds.

And nothing of relevance was written.

There is nothing that wasn't already addressed, especially concerning the difference between the grammar gender of things and categories and the grammar gender of individuals.

A proof that in the German language or any other language a grammar gender is chosen that correspondents with people's gender and not with their sex was again and as usual
not provided.

Actually, my major point was new:
The german language has a concept of gender since it can gender concepts. Such concepts as a persons personality, which is of course intangible. Therefore, in order to assign male or female attributes to it, a language needs a concept of gender.

Serafina claimed several times that my opinion violates European Law.

It does. If, say, Poland ignores my changed first name or birth certificate, they are acting illegally. They have to recognize that aspect of german law because they are members of the EU and i am a citizen of an EU-state.

I provided a decision of the European Court of Human Rights, which showed that the human rights code of the European Convention on Human Rights did not require legal recognition of new sexual identity and that any inconvenience did not amount to a denial of rights.

Again, a lawyer should really understand the implications of both the decisions and the fact that members of the EU have such laws.

The European Convention provides the highest degree of individual protection of all international human rights agreement.

And it excludes protection of gay marriage.
If it does that, it is not perfect.

The Convention is drafted in broad terms, in a similar (albeit more modern) manner to the English Bill of Rights, the American Bill of Rights, the French Declaration of the Rights of Man or the first part of the German Basic law. Statements of principle are, from a legal point of view, not determinative and require extensive "interpretation" by courts to bring out meaning in particular factual situations.

"Between a man and a woman" is hardly a broad term, don't you think? It specifically excludes homosexual marriage.
A concept you claimed to support, yet you see nothing wrong with that formulation.

And what is Serafina's conclusion: The decision contradicts me, does at no point agrees with me and treats transwoman as fully female.

It does. Both transwomen were addressed as female the whole time. The decision did not challenge their right to be recognized as female. All it did was addressing the extent of paperwork-change a country has to do.
It directly contradicts you in it's address of transwomen. It supports none of your points, at best it scratches at my tangential point that european law and human rights support me.

As before, you cited something that directly contradicts your attack on transwomen and claim at the same time that it supports you. That is pure hypocrisy.


Now, WILGA (why did you make a new account anyway?), how about actually any of my points instead of repeating yourself and engaging in ad hominems?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

And what is Serafina's conclusion: The decision contradicts me, does at no point agrees with me and treats transwoman as fully female.


It's downright preposterous.

Told ya.

He went from being clearly shown that that a transwoman is not "simply a female brain in a male body" (the initial claim he made and then initially disregarded when proved wrong) to several pages later claiming that he had multple papers proving such (i have yet to see them) and the papers refered to and or linked/posted disproving it did not exist and i never posted them.

That level of self denial and delusion is kinda scary really, still i suppose spending time on SDN has not helped as the mass denial and removal of inconvienient truths on that board is truely astounding.

[Serafina]

WILGA, you claimed that the german language has no concept of gender.
You have been shown to be wrong.

The grammar gender is always chosen according to more or less objective and dependable criteria: You see a person, you try to determine the sex or whatever else is deciding for the grammar gender from what you see and then you chose the grammar gender.

And what about objects or concepts? How do we determine gender here?
Besides, who the fuck tries to determine the sex of a person he just met? Have you EVER done that? Does ANYONE do that?
In most cases, you don't have to determine anything - it's obvious. That includes most transsexual persons.
In the case you actually meet someone where you can not see it right from the beginning, what you are determining is actually gender. Why?
Simply because you do NOT look at sex-based attributes - or do you look for the genitalia? Do you fondle their breasts in order to determine whether they are male or female?
No, according to your logic you check their DNA, because neither of the previous determines sex.
Again - no one does that. We determine gender.

Indeed, we have a large group of people where we can only determine gender - children. Because you can not see a physical difference between male and female children, unless they are naked. Instead, you look at attributes like clothing, hair length and most importantly behavior - all of which are gender concepts.

If the appearance has deceived you, e.g. the appearance of a tomboy or a sissy, you may have chosen the wrong grammar gender but, as soon as you know about your mistake, you will use the correct grammar gender without thinking about it.

In that case, it would actually be the correct grammar gender - because it suits their gender.
It has nothing to do with their biology.

And now imagine what would happen if you chose the grammar gender under consideration of the wish of each person you wish to talk with or about.

Not much. A conflict between the outward appearance and their wishes will only happen very rarely - and that includes transsexual people.
Nice slippery slope fallacy, tough - and i see that you are using quality lubricant as well.

I mean, if the wish to be adressed accordingly to the gender (about which you usually can only speculate) is possible, why not other wishes too? What is if the next person is not a transsexual but wishes to be a member of the other sex nevertheless? Or someone wants to be a neuter. Or someone thinks he is neither a man nor a woman but also no neuter (a third gender)?

Again, slippery slope.
How about, instead of speculating, you actually present evidence that such people exist?
Hey, how about any evidence at all?

You would have to ask each person what they wish and have to remember it. You even have to create new grammar genders to fulfill the wishes of some people. That's totally impractical.

For the umpthiest time, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ASK in most cases. I have said that already, you are ignoring it.
When you see a transwoman, you will see someone who tries to appear female. Regardless of the actual success, you will see that she tries. From that, you can easily conclude that she has a female gender and address her accordingly.
When you see a transman, he will try to appear male and you can address him accordingly.
When you see someone whose gender is ambiguous, just give it a shot and if you are wrong you will be corrected. Note that gender ambiguity has NOTHING to do with transsexuality, since transsexual people do not dress in a way that makes their gender ambiguous.

You are erecting a giant strawman here. You do not have to ask - unless you are a moron or obsessed with someones biology for no reason.
Indeed, even if you have to ask - is that that bad? Heck, if someone has a PHD i call him doctor, but do i know that? No, even there i do not have to ask, he will either make it clear by appearance (due to his work or whatever) or just tell me.

You are simply simple-minded. You think that all transsexual people look gender ambiguos (totally misinterpretating the term), errect a strawman black&white fallacy where you can only define someone by his genetics and claim that it is impossible to ask if you are not sure about someone. And then you conclude that this very act is impossible for a language, even tough language is by definition adaptable and people are already doing it.

[Who is like God arbour]

I decided to give a crash course in the basics of European law. Not that anyone believes the rubbish Serafina wrote.

The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the Council of Europe and the European Union are created by three distinct treaties.

The Council of Europe was founded 1949 and the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms entered into force 1953.

The history of the European Union is a little bit too complex for a crash-course. If you are interested in it, you can read more about it here. The short version is that the European Union was founded 1993 as an advancement and consolidation of several other organizations (European Coal and Steel Community (the treaty was signed 1951), the European Economic Community (the treaty was signed 1957) and the European Atomic Energy Community (the treaty was signed 1957) known as the European Communities, one pillar of the three pillars of the European Union). 2009, when the Lisabon Treaty entered into force, these organizations (as far as they still existed) were completely absorbed by the European Union.

It is important to understand that the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the Council of Europe and the European Union are distinct from each other (although many nations are members of both organizations and a signature nation of the Convention and new members of the Council of Europe are expected to ratify the convention at the earliest opportunity.).

From these three treaties, only the treaty of the European Union delimit sovereignty - that's why European Union's law is the first and only example of a supranational legal framework.

Under the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, no nation has to recognise act of states of another state. If Germany says that the sex of Serafina after a gender reassignment is female, another state is not obliged to treat Serafina as a woman if their law does not see him as a woman. The same applies for member states of the Council of Europe.

An exemption of that basic international rule is the European Union. But even there not all acts of states of a member of the European Union have to be recognised by other members.

A good example is the so-called driver's licence tourism. Citizen of one nation gets their driver's licence revoked (e.g. because they drove drunk) and now they go to another EU-nation and attend there a driving school and get a new driver's licence in the foreign nation that is a member of the European Union. There is a decision (C-476/01) of the European Court of Justice (do not confuse that with the European Court of Human Rights!) that makes this clear: According to that decision, a member state is not allowed to refuse to recognise a driving licence issued by another Member State or to refuse to recognise the validity of a driving licence issued by another Member State because there is a Council Directive on driving licences which forbids that.

Conversely that means that if there were not such a Council Directive, a member state would be allowed to refuse to recognise a driving licence issued by another Member State or to refuse to recognise the validity of a driving licence issued by another Member State.

The same applies to the legal status of a person. As long as there is no explicit and binding rule that obliges member states to recognise changes of the legal status of a person or to recognise arbitrary classifications, they don't have to do it. That means that if Serafina, after his gender reassignment, is legally recognised as a woman by Germany, he cannot demand from other states that they too recognise his status as a woman.

That means that Poland still could say that Serafina is a man.

And with that, Poland would not violate the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms because this convention does not require legal recognition of new sexual identity and any inconvenience by the not-recognition does not amount to a denial of any rights. Neither does the Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms demands that one nation recognise act of states of another nation.

And I do not know a Council Directive or any other European Union Law that decrees that all member states have to recognise the legal status of a person as it is decreed by another member state.

If there were such a rule, there probably would be a transsexuals-tourism too. Transsexuals who do not get the opposite sex of that they have as their sex recognised, go to states which are willing to recognise such things and get their legal status changed there. The own state would then be obliged to recognize the decision of the other nation.

And that would not only enable transsexuals-tourism.

The same would happen with marriage too: In your own state there is no gay-marriage or same sex-union allowed - no problem - go to a state where gay-marriage is allowed - the own state has to recognise the marriage.

• • • • [In Europe only Belgium, Iceland (no EU member), the Netherlands, Norway (no EU member), Portugal, Spain and Sweden legally recognize same-sex marriage while 13 further states of the 50 states in Europe, all but two are members of the EU, only recognize some type of same-sex unions. 29 states of Europe, including 11 states of the European Union, do not even that. [O]]

Or in your own state you are not allowed to marry while being a minor - no problem - go to a state where it is allowed - the own state has to recognise the marriage.

• • • • [In France you are not allowed to marry if you are not at least 18 years old, in Scotland you can already marry with 16 and do not even need parental consent. [O]]

Or adoption: In your own state you couldn't adopt a child (because you are a single or not deemed to be a good parent) - no problem - go to a state where it is possible - the own state has to recognise the adoption.

Or surrogate mothers: In your own state surrogate mothers are forbidden - no problem - go to a state where it is allowed - the own state has to recognise the maternity even if according to its laws only the woman who has delivered a child is recognised as the child's mother - regardless of genetics and other agreements (vide e.g. section 1591 of the German Civil Code).

And it is not only "tourism" - go to another state to circumvent the law of your own state - but migration too. If there were a law that decrees that all member states have to recognise the legal status of a person as it is decreed by another member state, e.g. a Dutch gay-couple which was married in the Netherlands could demand that the marriage is recognized by e.g. Italy (one of the states which do not even recognise same sex-unions) when they move to Italy.

Somehow I doubt that this is possible. And consequently I doubt that member states of the European Union have to recognise the change of sex that another member state has decreed.

But I admit that I could be wrong. I do not know each and every rule there is in the European Union. I merely think that it is unlikely that there is such a rule.

[Serafina]

Well, i asked an actual expert in law, and here is the answer:

WILGA is actually correct on something!!
Namely, that there is per se no european law that grants me special protection. And that EU-Law (which does not exist here in the first place) is not binding to member states (which has been mentioned in the reason for the court decision above) unless EU law is concerned (duh).

However, that is not what i have been arguing.
I HAVE been arguing that EU-members have to accept the changed legal status granted to my by german law. To put it in simple terms - Poland has to accept my new passport/id card, no matter what their own law says.
Actually, that is not so much a matter of EU-law rather than customary international relationships. And, again - a lawyer should be able to figure that out, if he doesn't already know it.

In other words, you are still wrong if you cut out the obfuscation.
Now, WILGA, how about addressing the core of my argument instead of nitpicking on tangential stuff?

[Who is like God arbour]

• • • • International Recognition / Legalization of Documents
        
        Documents are often only recognized by the authorities of another state if their authenticity and evidentiary value has been determined by a special procedure. But even formally authentic foreign documents have on occasion been discovered to contain inaccurate information. It must therefore be confirmed in the process of international recognition that documents that are to be used abroad were both issued from the responsible agency and are factually correct.
        
        A range of internationally accepted rules of procedure have been developed for this purpose. These will be listed below.
        
        These procedures apply to public documents, i.e. civil status documents, judicial and notarial documents, documents and certificates from administrative authorities. They do not apply to privately executed documents. Private documents include wills written by the testator by hand, form-free contracts of sale or powers of attorney. However, if a document concerning a private legal matter is authenticated by a notary or an official authority, it becomes a public document.
        
        The term "legalization" must be understood in this context: legalization is the confirmation of the authenticity of a foreign public document by a consular officer of the state in which the document is to be used.
        
        Legalization is not required for documents from/for many countries with which treaties have been concluded abolishing the requirement or replacing it with the "Hague apostille".
        
        The "Hague apostille" is – just like legalization – the confirmation of the authenticity of a public document. But, unlike legalization, it is conferred by a designated authority of the state which issued the document. It is no longer necessary to contact the consular officers of the state in which the document is to be used.
        
        The above-mentioned procedures are designed solely to confirm the authenticity and, if applicable, the accuracy of public documents. Whether a foreign public document complies with domestic requirements of form is a separate question.
        
        If, for example, German property law stipulates that certain declarations must be certified by a notary, as a rule this means a notary or consular officer in Germany. The equivalence of notarial acts performed abroad has to date only been accepted under certain narrowly defined conditions. It is thus necessary to review, in each individual case, whether a foreign attestation is able to meet German requirements of form. The mutual recognition of notarial attestations and certifications at international level has however only been regulated in a few fields (e.g. in social insurance agreements).
        
        The recognition of school and university certificates likewise does not depend solely on proof of their authenticity. The question of equivalence also arises, this time with respect to the courses of study certified. Information on the equivalence of foreign school and university certificates can be obtained from the Central Office for Foreign Education of the Secretariat of the Standing Conference of the Ministers of Education and Cultural Affairs of the Länder in the Federal Republic of Germany (Zentralstelle für ausländisches Bildungswesen des Sekretariats der Ständigen Konferenz der Kultusminister der Länder in der Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Lennéstrasse 6, 53113 Bonn).
        
        
        
        Procuring civil status documents from abroad
        
        Foreign civil status documents are often requested by German authorities or courts to prove changes in personal status that have occurred abroad (births, marriages, deaths).
        
        Should any difficulties, linguistic or otherwise, arise in procuring such documents from another country which make direct contact with the issuing authority in the foreign country impossible, the document can be acquired via the German mission responsible for that district. This procedure is open to German nationals only. The applicant must moreover prove that he/she has a legitimate interest in obtaining the document and must be able to provide detailed information (the full names of those involved, place, date, and if possible the registry number of the civil status issue in question).
        
        Special procedures for procuring documents have been agreed with all the states of Central and Eastern Europe. Standardized forms were drawn up in the process, which are available from the Federal Foreign Office (Division 505) or from German missions in the relevant states. Experience however shows that you must be prepared for long waiting times (six months or more is not uncommon), due to the number of applications made to the civil status registries of the host countries. The German missions have no power to accelerate the processing time.
        
        If normal postal channels do not appear reliable enough for communicating with the German mission abroad, a private international courier service should be used instead. The diplomatic bag between the Foreign Office and its missions abroad is solely for the purpose of transporting official correspondence pursuant to the Vienna Conventions on Diplomatic and Consular Relations, and therefore cannot be used by private individuals.
        
        A fee is payable for procuring civil status documents. The fee (currently EUR 15 to EUR 100) and any costs incurred (e.g. fees charged by local authorities) are to be paid by the applicant.

With other words, a state has not to recognize any documents (e.g. Identity documents, which some states do not even have, or passports) issued by other states.

And states are allowed to confirm that foreign documents are factually correct, are complying with domestic requirements of form and are equivalent with the own standards.

There may be agreements between states regarding the recognition of certain documents.

But it is not »  a matter of [...] customary international relationships. «

[Serafina]

Yes it is. That's why i did not say "international law", but rather "international custom" - because foreign papers are generally accepted.
Would you kindly point to a single instance where a german transsexual citizen was not treated according to his or her gender (by the government, not private citizens) within the EU? (with properly changed papers, of course)

Either way, this is still a pure attempt at obfuscation, given that it has nothing to do with the actual point.

And here is that point:
For what reason should we ignore a persons gender when addressing that person or discussing that persons rights?
That's your actual claim - that we should ignore a persons gender in both cases.
Now answer the question.

[Who is like God arbour]

Told ya.

He went from being clearly shown that that a transwoman is not "simply a female brain in a male body" (the initial claim he made and then initially disregarded when proved wrong) to several pages later claiming that he had multple papers proving such (i have yet to see them) and the papers refered to and or linked/posted disproving it did not exist and i never posted them.

That level of self denial and delusion is kinda scary really, still i suppose spending time on SDN has not helped as the mass denial and removal of inconvienient truths on that board is truely astounding.

You are right: A debate with Serafina is senseless.

He lies, he makes claims without proving them, he distorts what you are saying or outright ignores it, he is continually changing his own arguments and positions and does not accept evidence or arguments only because he does not like them.

That's why I do not debate with him any more. I'm merely correcting a few false claims of him.

But not to debate with him but because I do not want that someone is deceived by his lies. That's why I clarified the point about EU-law.

He may complain that it has » nothing to do with the actual point «, but the fact is that he brought that point into the game:

• • • • • Luckily, german (and most european) law contradicts you.

          Right now, transwomen have the same rights as ciswomen (at least in Germany&other parts of Europe, given the right procedures).

          You do not fully support my rights. My rights include (by german and european law) exactly the same rights as that of every other woman. You want to change that, hence you are opposing my rights.

          The burden of proof is on YOU. Every nation in the EU already accepts me as female (or rather, will legaly do so in a few months). If you want to change the law for 500 million people, the burden of proof is on YOU.
          So go ahead, and instead of complaining that you do not have to post any evidence, actually post some.

          There already IS law - in Europe, Canada and parts of the USA. You are completely ignoring it.

          Given that German and European law disagrees with you (that, when i doubt, gender is more important), you are arguing uphill. YOU have to show that it is morally right to ignore a persons wishes and gender identity and to focus solely on their sex.

          Serafina claimed several times that my opinion violates European Law.

          It does. If, say, Poland ignores my changed first name or birth certificate, they are acting illegally. They have to recognize that aspect of german law because they are members of the EU and i am a citizen of an EU-state.

          I provided a decision of the European Court of Human Rights, which showed that the human rights code of the European Convention on Human Rights did not require legal recognition of new sexual identity and that any inconvenience did not amount to a denial of rights.

          Again, a lawyer should really understand the implications of both the decisions and the fact that members of the EU have such laws.

          WILGA is actually correct on something!!
          Namely, that there is per se no european law that grants me special protection. And that EU-Law (which does not exist here in the first place) is not binding to member states (which has been mentioned in the reason for the court decision above) unless EU law is concerned (duh).
          
          However, that is not what i have been arguing.
          I HAVE been arguing that EU-members have to accept the changed legal status granted to my by german law. To put it in simple terms - Poland has to accept my new passport/id card, no matter what their own law says.
          Actually, that is not so much a matter of EU-law rather than customary international relationships. And, again - a lawyer should be able to figure that out, if he doesn't already know it.

          That's why i did not say "international law", but rather "international custom" - because foreign papers are generally accepted.
          Would you kindly point to a single instance where a german transsexual citizen was not treated according to his or her gender (by the government, not private citizens) within the EU? (with properly changed papers, of course)
          
          Either way, this is still a pure attempt at obfuscation, given that it has nothing to do with the actual point.

Honestly, that's ludicrous.




And regarding the brain of a transwoman: There is an interessting quote from The Duchess of Zeon to be found on SDN:

• • • • • Well this thread is something of an eye-opener for me. In particular, I had thought that "a lesbian trapped in a man's body" was a joke some straight guy came up with, and not a real phenomenon. For some reason I didn't realize that transsexual people can be gay too.

          That one should be obvious on a bit of thought:
          
          One part of the brain controls sexual identity (male/female).
          
          One part of the brain controls sexual attraction (toward males/toward females).
          
          If only one contains the necessary genetic errors...
          
          In short, trans-lesbians are actually very common for simple statistical reasons. It gets more complex however because the feminization processes which lead to transsexualism do tend to also affect the part of the brain controlling sexual attraction. But easily 33% of transwomen, with a large margin of error granted, are lesbians. I'm personally bisexual but broke up with my last boyfriend in early 2008 and haven't bothered with another since.

With other words: Only a few structures in the brain resemble female structures while other structures in the brain are still male.

If I'm not mistaken, that's exactly what some of you were arguing all the time and why you were saying that a transwoman does not have a female brain and is not a real woman.

And if it is correct that sexual preferences are caused by brain structures (something that is, as far as I know, still disputed), then the high count of lesbians among transwoman proves that transwoman do not have a female brain. At least that part that is responsible for their sexual preferences is, as the rest of their body, male.

If the whole brain of a transwoman were female, there shouldn't be (percentaged) more lesbians among them than there are among real women.



But I'd like to say, that regardless what the causes of transsexualism is, regardless if it is (partly) a life style choice or determined by biology and if a transsexual has a brain of the opposite sex or a brain with a mix of characteristics of the own and of the opposite sex or if characteristics of the own and of the opposite sex are totally missing, a transsexual is still a human being and has all the rights other human beings have too.

But these rights do not include the right that facts about them are ignored when they are not irrelevant. And the sex someone has is a fact and as others are not allowed to lie about their sex, transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to lie about their sex. The sex as the gender is part of what they are. It is is a part of their personality and dignity.

[Serafina]

But not to debate with him but because I do not want that someone is deceived by his lies. That's why I clarified the point about EU-law.

Other than you, i do admit when i am wrong about something.
Just like i admitted that i was wrong about the part about EU-law.
But you never admit when you were wrong about something - and german law still fully supports me.

He may complain that it has » nothing to do with the actual point «, but the fact is that he brought that point into the game:

And all of these were tangential points. They had nothing to do with my actual argument, they were just illustration.s
Your argument, on the other hand, rested on the entirely falsified claim that the german language does not have a concept of gender and that it is impossible to address someone based on his or her gender.
And you never admitted that you were absolutely, completely wrong with that. Or that linguistics are no basis for a moral argument.

With other words: Only a few structures in the brain resemble female structures while other structures in the brain are still male.

Ah, more distortions.
Guess what: There are only a few clear differences between a male and female brain in the first place.
Suppose you have a structure that is 90% concrete and 10% wood. And another where that is 90% concrete and 10% steel (both are otherwise identical). The difference between the two is only 10%, if you swap the wood for steel in the first building, it will be identical to the second one.

And if it is correct that sexual preferences are caused by brain structures (something that is, as far as I know, still disputed), then the high count of lesbians among transwoman proves that transwoman do not have a female brain. At least that part that is responsible for their sexual preferences is, as the rest of their body, male.

Guess what - lesbians have the exact same "male" brain structures. Just another part where it is obvious that there is no clear-cut difference between male and female.
And absolutely no reason to claim that that makes a lesbian transwoman any more male, unless you claim the same thing for lesbian ciswomen as well.

If the whole brain of a transwoman were female, there shouldn't be (percentaged) more lesbians among them than there are among real women.

Very, very wrong.
In fact, that shows that something went different during the development of their brain. Because, if you turn it around - a very large percentage of transwomen is attracted to men (let's say 50%/50% for sake of simplicity, but 30/70 would work as well).
You can have it one of two ways:
-their brains are male. In that case, a much larger percentage of them is attracted to men. Unfortunately, other regions are also more female, neatly tossing that claim out.
-their brains are female. A larger percentage than normal is attracted to women. Fits just as well with development theory and also fits with the observed evidence of other female brain structures.

Oh, and before Kor tries to dismiss the other observed female brain structures:
You can't. You have a single study that is older than many studiesthat show this. I was generous and let that one study cast a shadow of doubt on the others, but an observation is an observation - and this one is tested and repeated.
You can not throw out evidence.

But I'd like to say, that regardless what the causes of transsexualism is, regardless if it is (partly) a life style choice or determined by biology and if a transsexual has a brain of the opposite sex or a brain with a mix of characteristics of the own and of the opposite sex or if characteristics of the own and of the opposite sex are totally missing, a transsexual is still a human being and has all the rights other human beings have too.

Not when you are in charge. Right now, i do. Several decisions of the Bundesverfassungsgericht were responsible for that as well.

But these rights do not include the right that facts about them are ignored when they are not irrelevant. And the sex someone has is a fact and as others are not allowed to lie about their sex, transsexuals shouldn't be allowed to lie about their sex. The sex as the gender is part of what they are. It is is a part of their personality and dignity.

Ah, the "it's a lie and therefore immoral"-drivel.
Again - what do i lie about? I do not lie about my breasts (not any more than other women), i will not lie about my genitalia in about half a year (and even if - why should they be your business?), i do not lie about my hormonal status - what do i lie about?
Oh, right, my genetics. Well - who cares? Who has a right to know about my genetics?

And again - by your logic, it would already be immoral if i just TRY to pass as a woman. Because that would already be an attempt to "lie" about my sex, and by your logic immoral.
That's why i think that your position is utterly immoral and that you are not thinking it true at all.

My biology is my business. I do not lie about it any more than anyone else.
You have provided no argument why we should ignore gender. And your policy would completely ignore gender. Indeed, it would forbid the expression of gender if that expression contradicts biology, which could also be neatly used to suppress homosexuality and much more.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Oh, and before Kor tries to dismiss the other observed female brain structures:
You can't. You have a single study that is older than many studiesthat show this.

Go away liar.

Your study (THAT YOU POSTED 2 OR 3 LINKS TO)....it only counts the first time pal:

(Zhou et al. 1995) found a more feminine form of the BSTc brain region in mtf people, but it was faulty due to the faxct they CLAIMED hormone treatment did not effect the brain in any way.

MY TURN:

However (Hulshoff Pol, et al. 2006) did find hormone treatment altered the brain volumes refuting the Zhou et al. 1995 study.

GET IT?

(Luders et al. 2009) Could not find gross differences in the mtf brain compared to the male brain using MRI scanning.

GOT IT?.

(Glover et al. 2009) developed a model of sexual orientation development using GLBT subjects. This in some way tried to explain the transgender people’s “orientation”, particularly by including sexual experiences in their history. This suggested some environmental factors are involved.

Not happy with your life?, do you even exist anywhere apart from your overall disatisfaction and general need/desire to change in some way (unlikely considering the speed and regularity you post as well as the lies and exhagerations you tell)....id say you confirm the above study very effectivly.

(Levine and Solomon, 2009) Noted that transgender mtf people seemed to have lots of feelings. The theory advanced was that men with lots of feelings might observe this in themselves, observe it seemed rather typical of women, hence think they are women trapped in a man’s body.

Considering your obvious emotional instability im supporting the above study A LOT.

(Daskalos, 1998) and (Weyers et al. 2008) commented on the very sudden change of sexual orientation frequently reported by transgender people after treatment is commenced. In view of the alleged difficulty of changing sexual orientation in general, this seemed very unlikely, and argued at least a strong influence of environmental factors, and similarly the stability of the sexual identity comes into question.

Instability due to the changes oh dear oh dear i guess mutilation was not the solution to the base emotional/personal dosorder and disatisfaction then huh?.

Summary

There is no evidence that any influence, biological or social will inevitably create a transgender identity in a person. Evidence from twin studies further shows this will always be the case. No factor yet to be discovered will inevitably create such an identity.

There is no overwhelming scientific case about the inevitability of transgender or its development or its long-term stability. Assertions that there is consensus about the inevitability are merely wishful thinking.

Want more or are we done now?.

[Serafina]

Kor, you are the one who is lying here.
I did not link the same study over and over again (of course, i might have linked it multiple times over several posts). I DID link to several studies. Here are some, and there are many more:

Transwomen have female neuron numbers (2000):

Transsexuals experience themselves as being of the opposite sex, despite having the biological characteristics of one sex. A crucial question resulting from a previous brain study in male-to-female transsexuals was whether the reported difference according to gender identity in the central part of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) was based on a neuronal difference in the BSTc itself or just a reflection of a difference in vasoactive intestinal polypeptide innervation from the amygdala, which was used as a marker. Therefore, we determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

Sexual orientation and gender identity are determined in the womb (2007):

During the intrauterine period the human brain develops in the male direction via direct action of a boy's testosterone, and in the female direction through the absence of this hormone in a girl. During this time, gender identity (the feeling of being a man or a woman), sexual orientation, and other behaviors are programmed. As sexual differentiation of the genitals takes places in the first 2 months of pregnancy, and sexual differentiation of the brain starts during the second half of pregnancy, these two processes may be influenced independently of each other, resulting in transsexuality. This also means that in the case of an ambiguous gender at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the same degree of masculinization of the brain. Differences in brain structures and brain functions have been found that are related to sexual orientation and gender.

Same study repeated with another resarcher, getting the same results.
Yet another study that shows that these things are determined before birth:

The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation. Copyright © 2010 S. Karger AG, Basel.

Here is a non-complete list of twin-studies on transsexual people:

In the following cases the identical twins (of either sex, but the majority are male) were found concordant (i.e. both were transsexual):

Anchersen, (1956), Mckee et al. (1976), Hyde and Kenna (1977), Buhrich et al. (1991), Zucker and Bradley (1995), Green (2000), Sadeghi and Fakhrai (2000) Total, 7 cases.

In the following cases there was discordance:

Green and Stoller (1971) (2 cases), McKee et al. (1976), (2 cases, but this is drawn from triplets, which are here classified as 2 cases of discordance and 1 of concordance), Buhrich et al. (1991) (3 cases), Garden and Rothery (1992), Zucker and Bradley (1995), Christopher (2001) Total, 10 cases.

Thus in 7/17 cases there was concordance. Since this is neither 0/17 or 17/17, (statistically unlikely to be either) the conclusion is that genetic effects are probably involved, but do not compel the trait. Change is therefore possible.

As it says, that indicates a genetic component. Note that genetics are rarely a 100%-thing, in this case it is likely that there is a genetic factor (such as fewer receptors) and a hormonal cause (which needs the genetic factor to occur or is made more likely by it).

In all cases, there is EVIDENCE that transsexuality is NOT behavioral and that it IS already present at the time of birth. Your studies do nothing to disprove that.

Now, why your studies do not disprove the other studies. By the way - how about linking your sources? Not doing so is dishonest.

(Zhou et al. 1995) found a more feminine form of the BSTc brain region in mtf people, but it was faulty due to the faxct they CLAIMED hormone treatment did not effect the brain in any way.

Unless you can show how that invalidates the observation (and that the claim is wrong in the first place), the observation is still valid.

However (Hulshoff Pol, et al. 2006) did find hormone treatment altered the brain volumes refuting the Zhou et al. 1995 study.

Brain volume=/=brain structure.
It did NOT show that the formerly found neuronal structures were induced by hormone treatment.

(Luders et al. 2009) Could not find gross differences in the mtf brain compared to the male brain using MRI scanning.

That doesn't invalidate findings that show just that. You can not discount an observation just because you could not observe it in one instance. Only when no one else is able to confirm that observation, there is reason to doubt it. Given that this observation was made by several independent studies, this is not the case here.

(Glover et al. 2009) developed a model of sexual orientation development using GLBT subjects. This in some way tried to explain the transgender people’s “orientation”, particularly by including sexual experiences in their history. This suggested some environmental factors are involved.

Enviormental factors would not disprove genetic or pre-birth factors.
You are always going to black&white fallacies - but there can be more than one cause, it is clearly a complex issue.

(Levine and Solomon, 2009) Noted that transgender mtf people seemed to have lots of feelings. The theory advanced was that men with lots of feelings might observe this in themselves, observe it seemed rather typical of women, hence think they are women trapped in a man’s body.

And this explains transmen how exactly? This is also a problem with the study above. They purely focus on transwomen and completely ignore transmen. But the pre-birth development theory does explain both.

(Daskalos, 1998) and (Weyers et al. 2008) commented on the very sudden change of sexual orientation frequently reported by transgender people after treatment is commenced. In view of the alleged difficulty of changing sexual orientation in general, this seemed very unlikely, and argued at least a strong influence of environmental factors, and similarly the stability of the sexual identity comes into question.

We already know that sexual orientation can be suppressed and a different sexual orientation be faked. Living according to ones gender is often the enabler to live according to ones sexuality.

However in all these studies, the well-known plasticity of the brain may be involved. Brain regions are well known to change in response to intense thought processes, which are certainly present in transgender. Any differences found are more probably the result of the brain activity rather than the differences causing the anatomical differences. The former is well known from many studies – the latter is mostly speculative.

You do not even NAME this study. For all i know, you just made it up.7
Besides, the claim that thought processes can change everything in ones brain is clearly ludicrous. The regions where the differences are found are notable for their lack of plasticity, else you could not find any distinction at all.

Want more or are we done now?.

You have not presented anything that disproves the observations that transsexuality is determined before birth and that transsexual people have brain structures according to your gender.
You are also extremely dishonest, since you claim that studies show something they don't and because you do not link to these studies. Your last study is not even named, which is the height of dishonesty. You also claim that i have only a single study from 1995, which is another clear lie.

Again: The evidence that transsexuality is determined before birth and that transsexual people have gender-according brain structures stands. Your misrepresentation of the scientific process can not change that, it merely illuminates your incompetence and dishonesty.

Overall, it is quite likely that:
-Genetics determine a "vulnerability" for hormonal imbalances during gestation. This might easily be come in varrying degrees. Twin studies suggest this.
-Such hormonal imbalances can cause both homosexuality (when it affects only one region of the brain) and transsexuality (when it affects more). Genetics reduce the "threshold" that is needed for this. Again, we get varying degrees - some people are purely attracted to one sex, some vary more. Most people are bisexual to a degree.
Likewise, transsexuality has varying degrees - in some the impulse is stronger, in some it is weaker.
Brain structure and known development suggest this.
-Social environmental factors might be the final trigger for transsexuality. Several finds suggest this. The amount and type of factor varies depending on the degree of transsexuality that is determined before birth.

There - a nice threesome of causes. It incorporates all of the studies and does not contradict any findings.
Your theory, however (purely behavioral) completely ignores more than two thirds of the evidence.

My theory might be more complicated, but the worth of a theory is not determined by it's simplicity. Rather, it is determined by it's explanatory value. My theory explains the
findings of most of the studies (if not all) and explains both FtM and MtF transsexuality as well as the higher degree of homosexual attractions amongst transsexual people.
Your theory does not explain most of the findings and does not explain both of the latter.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

BOTH (Zhou et al. 1995) (Kruijver et al. 2000) Found a more feminine form of the BSTc brain region in mtf people, and found hormone exposure had no effect.

These studies have been debunked because the hormones have been proven that they DO effect the BTSc brain region.

FACT

The hormones changed the brain makeup in those tests they DID NOT have feminine BTSc regions before using hormones.

DEAL WITH IT.

There is no evidence that any influence, biological or social will inevitably create a transgender identity in a person. Evidence from twin studies further shows this will always be the case. No factor yet to be discovered will inevitably create such an identity.

There is no overwhelming scientific case about the inevitability of transgender or its development or its long-term stability. Assertions that there is consensus about the inevitability are merely wishful thinking.

Transgender is often argued to have its origins before birth and inevitably develop thereafter.

This has to be considered as part of a broader series of principles: Is there inevitability about anything which has its origin in the developing fetus? The answer is no, because the environment may always affect the outcome. At one extreme the fetus may not be born because it is aborted. At the other extreme one can imagine extreme parental upbringing such that every slightest biological tendency in any particular direction is nurtured and developed to its greatest extent. Most environmental influences act to produce a child who is not wholly genetically dictated, and the genetic heritage acts in its turn to prevent any inevitable effects of any environmental influence. Thus all traits are nature and nurture.

This conclusion has been the subject of scientific consensus for perhaps thirty years. Any viewpoint which argues for inevitability for any trait without regard for the environment, is trying to turn the clock back and has a very large burden of proof because of the known dual influences, nature and nurture, which exist for all human actions. In addition to these two factors there is a third, chance, which is underappreciated, and in many cases predominant. This may be chance occurrences which have a profound influence, or highly individualistic responses to influences, which rarely would react that way on others.

This scientific conclusion has come about for a number of reasons, but one of the most succinct is studies in identical twins. Summarised to its most basic form, identical twins have identical genes, and probably nearly identical upbringing. Any departure from 100% concordance for a trait means that other influences than genes and upbringing are affecting the outcome, and also means that genetic and/or social influences are not dictatorial in their influence. If an identical twin is transgender there is only roughly a 50% change the co-twin is transgender.
2
It is very rare to find a complete 100% concordance in identical twins for any trait, though in general the more “physical” the trait the better the concordance. Thus it is very rare to find different blood groups in identical twins. However it is quite common to find slightly different occupations. A good general summary of many of the traits studied (which tend to be the very traits about which there is doubt about origins) is that the concordance is about 50%. The collection of cases by Whitehead ((Whitehead, 2002)) and M. Diamond (personal communication), confirm that the pair wise concordance is similar to 50% and that common factors between identical twins such as genes and upbringing are not the predominant causes of being transgender.

This powerful general argument tends to be ignored in favour of looking for correlations between (for example) a transgender identity and physical or biological properties. One should note the universal truism that correlation is not causation – and even if the correlation is strong (the effect size), the question still arises how much it is totally independent of environmental influence. And the environment will almost always play a part. In most such studies, the effect size is small to modest.

In general also, recent studies in developmental neurology show that the brain is immensely plastic – a technical term which means greatly subject to change under the influence of the environment ((Doidge 2007)). A picture of a brain with some trait influenced in some major way prenatally and surviving the huge changes of childhood to emerge unchanged in adolescence, is so contrary to the known facts that proponents have an enormous burden of proof to show that it is true for any case argued in the contrary direction.

This is best put in perspective by saying that the human brain is the most complex object in the known universe, with 100 billion neurons. But human DNA has only 25,000 genes. Although 25,000 genes sounds a vast number it can obviously only specify an extremely tiny fraction of neural connections. And it does not directly specify neural connections – it specifies the production of proteins. Any influence on neural connections would have to be very indirect and general. It might possibly (though doubtfully) specify you have some sexual identity though not which one, but that would be alterable by circumstances, as shown by the sexual identities adopted by some (non-GID) children brought up in rare bizarre circumstances, with their parents insisting and enforcing the idea they are not really their biological gender.

We must also remember that the brain is altered by experience, learning, and even thinking (hence fantasy). A well known study found microscopically visible changes (MRI scan) when naïve volunteers were taught a juggling routine for a few months ((Draganski et al. 2004)). There is also much reprogramming of regions not being particularly used – the parts of the brain specializing in the visual are taken over by the hearing sense in a blind person. Large visual changes in the brain occur through learning a musical instrument, and a musician’s brain can be spotted immediately on a post-mortem. Mental rehearsing of a skill also enhances that skill.

3
This means experience and probably fantasy will alter the structure of the brain (e.g. rats with high sexual activity: (Breedlove, 1997)). It is very probable that the rehearsal thousands of times of feminine attitudes and skills will lead to changes in the brain that may mistakenly be thought to be innately feminine. This means that the studies to be discussed shortly in which brain differences have been found between heterosexual and transgender people need much better experimental controls, and it is at least premature to draw much from them.

We must remember that almost all the influences on detailed neural development are post-natal. The infant brain is only about 25% of the adult size at birth, so 75% is developed within many years of interaction with the environment. In general terms there is furious growth of neuronal connections (one million per second) and random firing of neurons in the very early years, and those pathways are reinforced if there is reward from the environment. Then for a period there is pruning of pathways, which have not been activated. Then another cycle starts, and this process continues until early adulthood. There are perhaps a score of such cycles and the cycle length ranges from a few months to several years. This process of intense learning is far greater and longer than animals experience.

Those who argue for prenatal influences inevitably expressed can finally only prove their case by longitudinal studies. That is children must be followed for about 30 years from birth and their development monitored, and the entire social environment as well.

This has not been done, and is not likely to be done, because transgender is relatively uncommon, and to obtain a sufficient number of transgender people in the final sample (say 20) the sample size might need to approach half a million. But until it is, the most likely explanation of any correlation of transgender with biological function or structure is some environmental influence.

There is also a general argument that shows early cross-gender behaviour is most unlikely to be biological pre-programmed. It is too spread out in time. Genuinely biologically pre-programmed events, such as pre-natal milestones, post-natal eruption of specific teeth, or puberty, occur in a surprisingly narrow time-frame with a relative standard deviation in time of only about 6-8% of the age ((e.g. for puberty, Hamer et al. 1993)). Early cross-gender behaviour is 2-4 years (APA definition in DSM manual), and the standard deviation in time of this event, taking a mean age of 3, is much larger than 6-8%. It is most unlikely to be a biologically pre-programmed event.

It is also worth noting that the overwhelming majority of those with early transgender behaviour (at least those referred to clinics) do not ultimately develop transgender identities. It is a rare event. The behaviour is overwhelmingly not part of a pre-programmed progression to transgender or manifestation of that.

Correlations of transgender and biology

Birth order differences

The more older brothers one has, the more likely one is to be homosexual. (The Fraternal Birth Order effect, FBO, (Blanchard and Bogaert, 1997)). There are many papers that have reported this. A biological basis is alleged for this, but that particular basis is extremely speculative ((Whitehead, 2007)). Similarly when a group of mtf transgender people is examined, there is an excess of elder brothers, and significant effeminacy was recorded when young. ((Blanchard et al. 1996), (Green, 2000a),(Poasa et al. 2004), (Bogaert, 2005)). However (Zucker et al. 2007) In their sample of Asiatic transgender mtf people showed that this was entirely due to the stopping rule, i.e. parents in Asia keep on having children until they have at least one boy, then they often stop. Others in the West have strongly questioned the elder brother studies because detailed controls for detailed family composition are inadequate, and may be simply not available. Even if such effects exist they have a minor influence – for example it was calculated that only 17% of homosexual men might owe their sexual orientation to this factor. This is likely to be the case for transgender also. This is rather weak evidence for a biological connection.

Non-right handedness

Some link with this has been reported ((Green, 2000b)). Typically this effect is modest.

Finger-length ratios

The 2D: 4D finger ratio has been alleged to be more like that of the opposite sex for gays and lesbians, but the field is in considerable disarray because of conflicting results. If correct and a very strong correlation this might indicate prenatal influence. The same is reported for transgender people ((Kraemer et al. 2007)) but the scale of the effect in mtf was described by the authors as weak. It was not found in ftm ((Schneider et al. 2005)). However typical of the irreproducible results in the literature, the opposite result for mtf was reported by (Wallien et al. 2008). No conclusion can be drawn about pre-natal influences.

Prenatal gene expression

It has been found ((Dewing et al. 2003)) That expression of 54 genes in mice fetal brain is different even in the absence of sex hormones, and before sex organs develop. This shows a masculinity/femininity even apart from the sex hormones. However it is a vast leap to fetal human brains to (a) conclude it happens in humans (b) that it has measurable effects on sexual identity (c) that it is not overwhelmed by post-natal influences. This is very speculative.

Difference in gene variety

(Bentz et al. 2008) found that 44% of ftm compared with 31% of controls had a particular variety of the biochemical compound Cytochrome P7. Mtf did not display this. The significance of this is far from clear. But it must be a weak effect, because the controls had the P7 variety quite frequently but were not ftm. The authors notably said, “The cultural environment is also important”.

Androgen cell receptor differences

In mtf people it was hypothesized that there was a particular form of androgen receptor predominating. (Henningsson et al. 2005) Found this difference for three forms of the receptor but stated “Results should be interpreted with the utmost caution”. (Hare et al. 2008) Could only repeat the finding with one receptor which was present in slightly greater amounts. This argues the results are rather difficult to reproduce. This would be a weak factor if further confirmed.

Sex ratios of relatives

(Green and Keverne, 2000) found there was a significant excess of maternal aunts compared with uncles for mtf people. No excesses were found for ftm. They theorized (as has been done for homosexual men) that a genetic process called skewed x-inactivation might be responsible. The effect is modest rather than overwhelmingly strong.

BSTc differences in the brain

This is part of studies also carried out extensively in homosexual people and plagued with irreducibility. The general conclusion there is as for the present summary. (a) are the differences real (b) do they cause experience or are they caused by experience? (Zhou et al. 1995) Found a more feminine form of the BSTc brain region in mtf people, and found hormone exposure had no effect, but there was considerable overlap in sizes with controls, so any effect is modest. (Kruijver et al. 2000) Repeated this and found the opposite effect in a ftm person, however again there was considerable overlap with controls and the effect was moderate only. The strongest way the result was expressed was “.. may point to a neurological basis of GID”. This is very ambiguous use of words: “a neurological basis” may mean effects ranging all the way from totally determinative to a slight influence. The results are consistent with the latter.

However (Chung et al. 2002) found that the BSTc only differentiates into male and female at ages 4-10, and may not finish until adulthood. This completely conflicts with the 2-4 year first manifestation seen for GID. On the other hand most of those diagnosed with GID do not remain so with age (Wallien and Cohen-Kettenis, 2008). Therefore although some correlation with transgender is demonstrated it does not give a coherent picture.

5

Rather similarly (Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab, 2008) for another small brain region the INAH3 found a similar result. In general all these results need replication by other researchers because replicability was not good in similar past studies involving homosexual men and the same type of study is being done here. There seemed little effect of hormones on these structures.

However (Hulshoff Pol, et al. 2006) did find altered brain volumes with hormone treatment.

(Luders et al. 2009) Could not find gross differences in the mtf brain using MRI scanning, except a structure called the right putamen which had a larger volume.

However in all these studies, the well-known plasticity of the brain may be involved. Brain regions are well known to change in response to intense thought processes, which are certainly present in transgender. Any differences found are more probably the result of the brain activity rather than the differences causing the anatomical differences. The former is well known from many studies – the latter is mostly speculative.

Environmental influence

Some evidence suggests influence of the environment.

(Bosinski et al. 1997a; Bosinski et al. 1997b) in ftm subjects found a quite exceptional frequency of non-classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia, poly-cystic ovarian syndrome, and hirsutism. There is the obviously possibility that awareness of these medical conditions influenced the subjects’ thinking.

(Glover et al. 2009) developed a model of sexual orientation development using GLBT subjects. This in some way tried to explain the transgender people’s “orientation”, particularly by including sexual experiences in their history. This suggested some environmental factors are also involved.

(Levine and Solomon, 2009) Noted that transgender mtf people seemed to have lots of feelings. The theory advanced was that men with lots of feelings might observe this in themselves, observe it seemed rather typical of women, hence think they are women trapped in a man’s body.

(Daskalos, 1998) and (Weyers et al. 2008) commented on the very sudden change of sexual orientation frequently reported by transgender people after treatment is commenced. In view of the alleged difficulty of changing sexual orientation in general, this seemed very unlikely, and argued at least a strong influence of environmental factors, and similarly the stability of the sexual identity comes into question.

Conclusions.

It seems quite possible that some biological correlates will eventually be firmly established for transgender. However it will still remain an open question whether the intense brain activity associated with transgender is the cause of these. It is far better established that the brain is neuroplastic – i.e. differences observed are due to experiences acting on it. It should also be remembered that there is also likely to be a strong element of chance involved.

We reiterate that the only medium concordance for identical twins shows that common factors including all those operating, but not known to researchers, are not responsible for the majority of transgender, and that erratic, chance factors are significant

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Now go away.

[Serafina]

Aah, still in denial, eh?
Kor, you can't wave away evidence. Yet this is exactly what you are trying to do.

These studies have been debunked because the hormones have been proven that they DO effect the BTSc brain region.

FACT

The hormones changed the brain makeup in those tests they DID NOT have feminine BTSc regions before using hormones.

No. By what?
The study you linked showed a change in brain size, NOT in structure. There is a difference between the two.
Besides, even IF that is true - then is still have a female brain and you have to grant me the same rights and treatment that you grant every other person with a female brain. Hence, your wish to discriminate me is still invalidated by science.


Oh, and i see that you posted more unlinked stuff. I say "stuff" because the second quote is clearly a non-scientific article, not a study. Again, link your sources. Everything else is dishonest.

Besides, you are attacking a strawman again. Your argument is not that there is no inevitable development - but i never claimed that it is inevitable. I argued against inevitability in my last argument. But i suppose you don't actually read what i am writing - and if you do, your reading comprehension is abyssal.


Your demand that transwomen are to be treated like men is still invalidated. Your demand that transwomen ought to be treated as second-class citizens is still invalidated. Your demand that transwomen are forced to undergo brain surgery that destroys their personality is still invalidated.
Your claim that transsexuality is purely behavioral is still invalidated. Your claim that there is no genetic or pre-birth influence is still invalidated. Your claim that transpeople are deranged is still invalidated.
You can not handwave evidence away. You can not ignore evidence when constructing a theory.

You do not make any argument that could potentially justify your wish to discriminate against transwomen. Since you have no logical reason to do so, there is only one possible conclusion:
That you demand all of this out of ignorance and intolerance.
This is why i called you a bigot. Since you did not change, i am forced to continue with that opinion about you.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

No. By what?
The study you linked showed a change in brain size, NOT in structure. There is a difference between the two.

O.M.G.

Do you not get it?, they are not saying that you should have a lump on the side of your skull to fit the extra size. The STRUCTURE of the brain is made up of parts and those parts differ in size depending on if you are male or female.

A MTF brain is naturally and mostly MALE but the hormones alter some of its parts so some shrink and some grow so its more like a female type brain, we know that to be FACT.

As such the MTF brain cpould not have been female in the first place because if it had been how could the hormones have changed it into a more female type.

Besides, even IF that is true - then is still have a female brain and you have to grant me the same rights and treatment that you grant every other person with a female brain. Hence, your wish to discriminate me is still invalidated by science.

So now you are telling what i HAVE to do because a few drugs and mutilations make you a little less male and a bit more female?.

I have already told you what i think of you and if you are not clear on that i suggest you read ASVS again.

Your demand that transwomen are to be treated like men is still invalidated.

I made no demand, i just will treat you as such because you are closer to male than you will ever be female and because i do not like you.

Your demand that transwomen ought to be treated as second-class citizens is still invalidated.

LINK TO DEMAND PLS....(oh and not a strawman creation of your deseased mind)...A ACTUAL DIRECT QUOTE OF MY DEMANDING SUCH.

Your demand that transwomen are forced to undergo brain surgery that destroys their personality is still invalidated.

See above.

Your claim that transsexuality is purely behavioral is still invalidated.

Vey much supported actually.

Your claim that there is no genetic or pre-birth influence is still invalidated.

Very little and VERY inconclusive, certainly social and environmental effects have been shown to over ride such things considerably.

Your claim that transpeople are deranged is still invalidated.

You certainly are, however a larger sampling would be required to confirm your strawman accusation.

You can not handwave evidence away. You can not ignore evidence when constructing a theory.

No evidence is ignored ALL evidence is used....it is you who makes leaps from inconsistant material and weak speculation while ignoring counter evidence and facts.

You do not make any argument that could potentially justify your wish to discriminate against transwomen.

No discrimination mearly accuracy.

Since you have no logical reason to do so, there is only one possible conclusion:
That you demand all of this out of ignorance and intolerance.
This is why i called you a bigot. Since you did not change, i am forced to continue with that opinion about you.

You do not learn do you?.

Playing the victim and constructing strawmen and false accusations to try and squeeze in a insult past the rules and claiming like you were "FORCED" is not gonna work.