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Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:40 pm
by Kor_Dahar_Master
Left to right? Later? Long Term Relationship? Long Term research? Learn to Return? Long Term Romance? Love Trust Respect? Laser Target Rangefinder? Anything else?
Alot of effort there just to plead ignorant of a meaning you are well aware of, more dishonesty to allow a insult.
No. You claim that he has a "success rate". Unless you retract that claim, it is your Burden of Proof.
His reports supported by the APA/DSM ect ect...and around we go again.....
Learn to read.
LTR?.

ok...
'This fact is also the best argument against Zuckers hypothesis. Just a few decades ago, Zuckers "treatment" was the standard in every western household - boys who play with dolls were punished or beaten by their parents and scorned by their peers etc.
I merely stated as a fact that beating children happened to be standard a few decades ago.
Liar it is clear what you said.
That was not related to Zucker (tough there have been accusations that he encourages it).
By those just like you.

Serafina you are a sick child raping pervert.......there you go i can now claim that there have been accusations that you are a sick child raping pervert...see how easy it is?...
Yes, that's a real excuse.
Not a excuse a reason, i do not need or use excuses for insulting those who have offended and insulted me i just do it.
'Given that i hardly use them for insults, that is just a non sequitur.
Well at least you admit to creating stawmen, now all we need is to get you to admit to using them as a excuse to insult and we will have real progress.
You can claim that. But your insults focus solely on these things (well, except the foot size). Which contradicts that statement.
Hey you are ugly, the fact that you are a ugly mutilated guy or a ugly transwoman is not the important part.
Well, given that you have declared disgust and fear of transsexual people in the past and are hostile towards anyone saying that transwomen are women just like your wife is, i think these accusations are hardly unjustified.
Disgust?, when?.

Fear?, when?.

And you are not and never will be a woman like my wife.
You?
No, people like you do not change their minds.
I suggest you go back to the start of this thread, you have done a fine job of changing my mind from my original position.
In other words, you dismiss my arguments out of hand.
YUP it has all been said and your ravings and crap have managed to change my position...congrats, in fact i wish JMS had not posted after this thread was dead as i have wasted way too much time going over the same crap you already posted.

Now, again - got anything but personal insults
For you?, nope just accurate insults im afraid it is akll you are worthy of.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:56 pm
by Serafina
Alot of effort there just to plead ignorant of a meaning you are well aware of, more dishonesty to allow a insult.
Actually - no. I do not recall what you could possibly mean here which would fit here.
LTR?.

ok...
Ah, so that's what it was. Eh, it's not easy to figure out an acronym entirely without context.
His reports supported by the APA/DSM ect ect...and around we go again.....
No, Kor. That is an appeal to authority. Actual support would consist of independent studies with similar results.
Liar it is clear what you said.
Yes it is. Which was:
boys who play with dolls were punished or beaten by their parents and scorned by their peers etc.
Doesn't refer to Zucker. It merely says that the essential part of Zuckers treatment (forcing children to supress their behavior) was present. It does not imply that Zucker did so by beating children.
Serafina you are a sick child raping pervert.......there you go i can now claim that there have been accusations that you are a sick child raping pervert...see how easy it is?...
Yes, it is easy. Except that you state it entirely out of the blue, while the accusations against Zucker were reasoned.
Not a excuse a reason, i do not need or use excuses for insulting those who have offended and insulted me i just do it.
I think that speaks for itself.
Well at least you admit to creating stawmen, now all we need is to get you to admit to using them as a excuse to insult and we will have real progress.
You do not want progress. You want support for your prejudice.
Hey you are ugly, the fact that you are a ugly mutilated guy or a ugly transwoman is not the important part.
I think that speaks for itself as well. Luckily, both of my former girlfriends happen to disagree.
And you are not and never will be a woman like my wife.
Yet more evidence of your prejudice.
I suggest you go back to the start of this thread, you have done a fine job of changing my mind from my original position.
Hardly. Your original position was that transwomen are not women, and you just restated that. All that changed were your excuses for your prejudice.
YUP it has all been said and your ravings and crap have managed to change my position...congrats, in fact i wish JMS had not posted after this thread was dead as i have wasted way too much time going over the same crap you already posted.
In other words, you do not want an argument - you just want to insult me because you hate transsexuals. Gotcha. Also, this supports that assertion:
For you?, nope just accurate insults im afraid it is akll you are worthy of.
QED.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:53 pm
by Kor_Dahar_Master
Actually - no. I do not recall what you could possibly mean here which would fit here.

Ah, so that's what it was. Eh, it's not easy to figure out an acronym entirely without context.
Keep pleading your case like that it shows all the exact level of your honesty.
Doesn't refer to Zucker. It merely says that the essential part of Zuckers treatment (forcing children to supress their behavior) was present. It does not imply that Zucker did so by beating children.
More manipulative word play, you and those reading know your intent and it adds more facts in regards to your honesty.
Yes, it is easy. Except that you state it entirely out of the blue, while the accusations against Zucker were reasoned.
By ppl like you?.

Reason is that last word i would use to describe you, but if you have a police report by all means show it.

What happened was the extreme tranny and homo crowd got its collective knickers in a bunch cos Zucker found a cure for summat they do not want to be able to be cured so they started a hate and slander campaign.
I think that speaks for itself.
Yup, excuses are for ppl like you who are preaching to the audience, it goes hand in hand with your need to force others to accept you for what you want rather than what you are.

You should not give a shite what i think in regards to you wanting to be a real woman (even though you never will be) but you are so obsessed with controlling how i and others think you cannot get past it. I am wat i am, if you do not accept me for it id say fuck you and who cares..but you?, your all about others opinions and as long as you are im living rent free right where you live lol.

You do not want progress. You want support for your prejudice.
What predjudice?.
I think that speaks for itself as well. Luckily, both of my former girlfriends happen to disagree.
I know real women who are into dudes with long hair as well, id introduce you but i like them.
Yet more evidence of your prejudice.
Really?, more like my right to a opinion.
Hardly. Your original position was that transwomen are not women, and you just restated that. All that changed were your excuses for your prejudice.
I already told you i do not use or need excuses, nor does having a opinion make me predjudiced, thinking a black person is not white like me does not make me predjudiced anymore than thinking a transwoman is not a woman like my wife.
In other words, you do not want an argument - you just want to insult me because you hate transsexuals.
You lost your initial argument so you chqanged it and denied having it, you did this over and over in this thread and now i am just sick of your crap.

So yes all i want to do now is insult you, because you are you and if you wish to chalk it up to you being transgendered then by all means do so as one more wrong assumption from you is hardly going to make a differance now.

Gotcha. Also, this supports that assertion:
For you?, nope just accurate insults im afraid it is all you are worthy of.
QED.
Oh look another off context comment leading to a strawman leading to a accusation/insult....YAWN.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:12 pm
by Serafina
Keep pleading your case like that it shows all the exact level of your honesty.
Because you can totally a non-native speaker to know every english acronym at every time. Or not.
More manipulative word play, you and those reading know your intent and it adds more facts in regards to your honesty.
Or a reference to what encouraging gender stereotypes and punitive upbringing. Which you deny - do you raise your own children like that (not implying beating here).
By ppl like you?.
Of course, the oppinon of the people actually affected by transsexuality has not worth to you. You already made that pretty clear.
Reason is that last word i would use to describe you, but if you have a police report by all means show it.
Given that his actions are not criminal, there can't be one. But just because something is not criminal, it is not automatically alright.
What happened was the extreme tranny and homo crowd got its collective knickers in a bunch cos Zucker found a cure for summat they do not want to be able to be cured so they started a hate and slander campaign.
So you claim that homosexuality is curable? Then you contradict the scientific consensus.
Also, his attitude towards homosexuality is the reason why LBT-groups got upset, since GID includes homosexuality and he tries to repress it.

Yup, excuses are for ppl like you who are preaching to the audience, it goes hand in hand with your need to force others to accept you for what you want rather than what you are.
Talking to an audience is a valid debate tactic. It is automatically part of any public debate. Basis rhetorics 101, teached in grade 7.
Also, when one says "that speaks for itself" you are explicitly not making a comment on it. Hence, i can not possibly force any opinion on anyone. Which i can't do anyway, since there is no force i could use that end.
You should not give a shite what i think in regards to you wanting to be a real woman (even though you never will be) but you are so obsessed with controlling how i and others think you cannot get past it. I am wat i am, if you do not accept me for it id say fuck you and who cares..but you?, your all about others opinions and as long as you are im living rent free right where you live lol.
I do care about the opinions of others. Every healthy human being does. I do not care about your opinon, or other anonymous people on the internet. At least not personally.
What i DO care about is people preaching against transsexuality and spouting hate against it.

What predjudice?.
Prejudices like this one:
wanting to be a real woman (even though you never will be)
.
I know real women who are into dudes with long hair as well, id introduce you but i like them.
Given that both are staunch lesbians, this is hardly accurate. Especially since one of them was my girlfriend before my transition but was not physically attracted to me - now she is, tough we do not want to start a new relationship.
Really?, more like my right to a opinion.
You have the right to any opinion to want. Even to prejudices. No contradiction there.
I already told you i do not use or need excuses, nor does having a opinion make me predjudiced, thinking a black person is not white like me does not make me predjudiced anymore than thinking a transwoman is not a woman like my wife.
Having a prejudice is what makes you prejudiced.
You lost your initial argument so you chqanged it and denied having it, you did this over and over in this thread and now i am just sick of your crap.
I did not "lose" it, since you did not disprove a transwomens female gender identity or potential neurological causes.
So yes all i want to do now is insult you, because you are you and if you wish to chalk it up to you being transgendered then by all means do so as one more wrong assumption from you is hardly going to make a differance now.
Again, this speaks for itself. Incidentally, exactly what i expected to find on this forum.
YAWN.
Get some yarn and play with it.


Again, nothing but appeals to authority and insults.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:50 pm
by Kor_Dahar_Master
Because you can totally a non-native speaker to know every english acronym at every time. Or not.
Whatever liar.
Or a reference to what encouraging gender stereotypes and punitive upbringing. Which you deny - do you raise your own children like that (not implying beating here).
And on and on...
Of course, the oppinon of the people actually affected by transsexuality has not worth to you. You already made that pretty clear.
Emotionally charged ravings that include accusations of child abuse by doctors and conspiracy at the highest levels of the medical community?....nope no worth.
Given that his actions are not criminal, there can't be one. But just because something is not criminal, it is not automatically alright.
My bad i was sure child abuse was a crime, after all that was the accusation.
So you claim that homosexuality is curable?
Did i?, im pretty sure i did not.
Also, his attitude towards homosexuality is the reason why LBT-groups got upset, since GID includes homosexuality and he tries to repress it.
OH REALLY:
The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force issued a statement questioning the APA's decision to appoint Zucker, according to a response released by American Psychiatric Association, Zucker does not advocate reparative therapy for transgender adults or for trans youth in all cases, and he opposes change therapy for gays under all circumstances.
So it looks like they did check on his work.

You need to stop getting your material from hate pages on gay/trani sites.

Talking to an audience is a valid debate tactic.
When you are losing making a appeal to the audience and making child abuse claims to try and gain support only impresses the stupid and niave.
I do care about the opinions of others. Every healthy human being does. I do not care about your opinon, or other anonymous people on the internet. At least not personally.
What i DO care about is people preaching against transsexuality and spouting hate against it.
You care, you just claim that ppl not thinking the way you want them to = hate towards transgenders.

Now a person doing that is either using it as a weapon to put others on the defensive in a discussion in the hopes they will comply rather than be branded a bigot (likely true after a revision of your comments and debate tactics) although it ineffective against a confident adult like myself who is quite happy insulting you on any level.

Or delusional and obsessed (also a accurate assumption after a review of your posts) and actually believe it.

Or both

So after consideration in your case its obviously both.

I dislike you because of who you are and what you are like, you are unlikely to ever be able to make me actually hate you as you are not worth or capable of generating that sort of emotion from me.
Prejudices like this one:
wanting to be a real woman (even though you never will be).
Accuracy is not predjudice nor is having a opinion based in fact.
Given that both are staunch lesbians, this is hardly accurate. Especially since one of them was my girlfriend before my transition but was not physically attracted to me - now she is, tough we do not want to start a new relationship.
So growing long hair (as you have not had SRS) and wearing a dress magically made her find you physically attractive?.
You have the right to any opinion to want. Even to prejudices. No contradiction there.
No contradiction between opinion and accuracy either.
Having a prejudice is what makes you prejudiced.
And yet i do not have one.
I did not "lose" it, since you did not disprove a transwomens female gender identity or potential neurological causes.
And yes that was your latest claim after the " simply a female brain in a mans body" crap and all the other claims in between you made that got blown out.......but now using words like "potential" amoung others does mean you are making no definitive claim and as such no definitive rebuttal can be made.

A poor, obvious and cowardly tactic, but the only one you had left.

Again, this speaks for itself.

Incidentally, exactly what i expected to find on this forum.
Does it?, good.

A 20/20 hindsight comment?....you are just full of stereotypical loser tactics aint ya?.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:19 pm
by Serafina
Whatever liar.
I am german. In case you did not know it, german is therefore my first language. No lie there.
And on and on...
More denial by you, yes. Instead of actually posting evidence. which would be trivial if you have actually studied Zuckers works and if such evidence existed.
Emotionally charged ravings that include accusations of child abuse by doctors and conspiracy at the highest levels of the medical community?....nope no worth.
Given that you said that "people like me" have no opinion that is worth anything, this is just a distortion of your own words.
My bad i was sure child abuse was a crime, after all that was the accusation.
Yes it is. But unfortunately, Zuckers methods are not seen as such. Hence, no crime.
But still pretty damn bad.
Did i?, im pretty sure i did not.
So you do not even know what you wrote?
What happened was the extreme tranny and homo crowd got its collective knickers in a bunch cos Zucker found a cure for summat they do not want to be able to be cured so they started a hate and slander campaign.
There. Your assertion is that people got upset because Zucker found a cure. But since you claim that the homosexual community also got upset, you are asserting that he found a cure for homosexuality.
So it looks like they did check on his work.

You need to stop getting your material from hate pages on gay/trani sites.
Yeah - but he is still suppressing children who display GID because they are homosexual.
When you are losing making a appeal to the audience and making child abuse claims to try and gain support only impresses the stupid and niave.
Given that i talked to the audience right from the start, this is just worthless revisionism.
You care, you just claim that ppl not thinking the way you want them to = hate towards transgenders.
That depends on the way they think. There are lot's of opinions that diverge from my own and do not contain hate towards transsexual people.
Yours, however, does.
Now a person doing that is either using it as a weapon to put others on the defensive in a discussion in the hopes they will comply rather than be branded a bigot (likely true after a revision of your comments and debate tactics) although it ineffective against a confident adult like myself who is quite happy insulting you on any level.

Or delusional and obsessed (also a accurate assumption after a review of your posts) and actually believe it.

Or both

So after consideration in your case its obviously both.
Got anything substantial to say?
I dislike you because of who you are and what you are like, you are unlikely to ever be able to make me actually hate you as you are not worth or capable of generating that sort of emotion from me.
I already know that you dislike me because i an transsexual. No need to repeat that.
Accuracy is not predjudice nor is having a opinion based in fact.
And it is not accuracy. Because it disagrees with actual science.
So growing long hair (as you have not had SRS) and wearing a dress magically made her find you physically attractive?.
And generally appearing much more female. All that SRS changes is my genitals - which you do not see from outside.
No contradiction between opinion and accuracy either.
Still no accuracy in your prejudice.
And yet i do not have one.
Go and buy a dictionary.
And yes that was your latest claim after the " simply a female brain in a mans body" crap and all the other claims in between you made that got blown out.......but now using words like "potential" amoung others does mean you are making no definitive claim and as such no definitive rebuttal can be made.

A poor, obvious and cowardly tactic, but the only one you had left.
And you have, again, ignored what i have actually said and made claims out of nothing.
Does it?, good.

A 20/20 hindsight comment?....you are just full of stereotypical loser tactics aint ya?.
Huh, since when am i the one who does nothing but insults? I actually posted some evidence. You flat-out refuse to do so.


Again, noting but appeals to authority and hate against transsexuality.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 8:49 pm
by Kor_Dahar_Master
No lie there.
Well im willing to accept you are german so that is one thing il accept as the truth, your skirting of the real issue and evasion in addressing it is however very obvious.
More denial by you, yes. Instead of actually posting evidence. which would be trivial if you have actually studied Zuckers works and if such evidence existed.
From what i have seen of his methods he uses positive reinforcement, but the tranny/homo hate mongers obviously choose it reinterpret as a negative....

Encoragment to play with boy toys becomes denials of girl toys and punishment.....a very sick and nasty position to take fueled by hate.

But you claim im the hate filled one?.
Given that you said that "people like me" have no opinion that is worth anything, this is just a distortion of your own words.
Distortion?, no it is a explanation.
Yes it is. But unfortunately, Zuckers methods are not seen as such. Hence, no crime.
Concession accepted.
So you do not even know what you wrote?
Ido, you however seem not to.
What happened was the extreme tranny and homo crowd got its collective knickers in a bunch cos Zucker found a cure for summat they do not want to be able to be cured so they started a hate and slander campaign.
There. Your assertion is that people got upset because Zucker found a cure.
For GIDIC, you do remember that was what was being discussed right?....
But since you claim that the homosexual community also got upset, you are asserting that he found a cure for homosexuality.
Am i what a wonderful strawman?, i suggest you read it again and then check online see what groups made a petition (that got utterly ignored as total drivel)...i will give you a hint.....GAY groups.


Given that i talked to the audience right from the start, this is just worthless revisionism.
Not really considering you have also been losing from the start.

That depends on the way they think. There are lot's of opinions that diverge from my own and do not contain hate towards transsexual people.
Yours, however, does.
You are not worth hating nor are transgenders, i do not like you because of who you are as i have said.

I already know that you dislike me because i an transsexual. No need to repeat that.
See pure obsession, you think WHO you are is a transexual......talk about living in the problem...
And it is not accuracy. Because it disagrees with actual science.
The lists of sciences and material from them that show you are not like my wife is very very long.
And you have, again, ignored what i have actually said and made claims out of nothing.
I know exactly what you said, you have finally managed to construct a argument that is vague enough and makes no definitive claims, as such no definitive rebuttal can be made.

A undefined argument that relies on words like "potential" cannot support or confirm any sort of strong claim either..

Still it also opens the door to other theories, personally im betting the brain anomoly causes emotional instability as well a person to feel a deep and uncontrolable feeling that others must accept them for what they decide they are. It would ceratinly explain the high suicide rates before and after SRS for transgenders, as such maybe self confidance therapy should be used.

The word "potential" in regards to brain anomolies just gives us spo many options and opens so many doors.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:10 pm
by Serafina
For those who do not want to bother with Kors drivel:
Just more appeals to authority, personal insults and no evidence for anything. Oh, and lot's of prejudices.

From what i have seen of his methods he uses positive reinforcement, but the tranny/homo hate mongers obviously choose it reinterpret as a negative....
You have no idea what positive reinforcement actually is, do you?
Encoragment to play with boy toys becomes denials of girl toys and punishment.....a very sick and nasty position to take fueled by hate.
Guess what - if he advocates taking away and prohibiting female (or male) behavior, then that is not positive reinforcement.
To quote about his method:
For children assigned as males at birth, Zucker orders parents to take away their child’s "feminine" toys and instruct the child not to play with or draw pictures of girls.
That's not positive reinforcement.
Distortion?, no it is a explanation.
So you admit that you don't give a damn about the opinions of transsexual people. Thanks for that admission.
Concession accepted.
Oh, so just because something is not a crime, it is not bad? Are you really that ignorant?
For GIDIC, you do remember that was what was being discussed right?....
For homosexuality? No, not at all.
Am i what a wonderful strawman?, i suggest you read it again and then check online see what groups made a petition (that got utterly ignored as total drivel)...i will give you a hint.....GAY groups.
Indeed. Just what i said.
And guess what - gay groups are mostly not transsexual groups. Most homosexual people do not actually care about transsexuality. So why should they complain about Zuckers work?
I tell you why - because he is also suppressing homosexuality in children (which most children with GID are according to the DSM IV). That's also why he is supported by many groups who advocate "reperative therapy" for homosexuality. He might personally not be for it, but he is still supporting it.
Not really considering you have also been losing from the start.
As per you saying so. Then again, you were prejudiced right from the start - you claimed that transwomen are not women at the beginning, you are claiming it now. Regardless of any support or lack thereof for your position. And there is no such support.
You are not worth hating nor are transgenders, i do not like you because of who you are as i have said.
So you consider transsexual people worthless. Nice one.
But if you would consider them worthwhile, you would hate them.
Really tolerant there.
See pure obsession, you think WHO you are is a transexual......talk about living in the problem...
You do not know anything else about me. Hence, it is the only thing you can base your dislike on. Especially since you were not talking solely about behavior i demonstrated here - but about who i am.
The lists of sciences that show you are not like my wife is very long.
My chromosomes. That's about it.
Other than that, there is nothing that won't be fixed within half a year. Well, except that i am unable to give birth, but i suppose that will also be true for your wife in a couple of years - i suppose you won't consider her a woman then either.
I know exactly what you said, you have finally managed to construct a argument that is vague enough and makes no definitive claims, as such no definitive rebuttal can be made.

A undefined argument that relies on words like "potential" to cannot support or confirm any sort of strong claim either.

So very weak.
You apparently forgot that the evidence was not yet conclusive either way. Therefore, potential is entirely accurate.

Well, i suppose it is my turn to yawn now. Since you are still not supplying any evidence for anything.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:48 pm
by Kor_Dahar_Master
For those who do not want to bother with Kors drivel:
Just more appeals to authority, personal insults and no evidence for anything. Oh, and lot's of prejudices.
Gosh i must have hit a nerve.

You have no idea what positive reinforcement actually is, do you?
Encoraging correct/required behaviour with rewards.

For children assigned as males at birth, Zucker orders parents to take away their child’s "feminine" toys and instruct the child not to play with or draw pictures of girls.
That's not positive reinforcement.
That particular examnple is not no.

Encoraging or even telling children to play with other toys for several reasons as well as to play with other children is something parents do all the time, you will do so if you ever have kids. I certainly have and while it was not for a gender reason the fact is it is still a regular event in a childs life if they have responsable parents.
So you admit that you don't give a damn about the opinions of transsexual people. Thanks for that admission.
Angry deluded rantings from any group full of hate do not interest me, but nice distortion of the truth though...really in keeping with your debate tactics and honesty.
Oh, so just because something is not a crime, it is not bad? Are you really that ignorant?
The fact is that every responsable parent on the planet does what Zucker does in regards to stopping their children playing with certain kids or taking certain toys off them for one reason or another, its harmless and claiming it is some kind of emotional torture that will cause problems in later life is pathetic.

And guess what - gay groups are mostly not transsexual groups. Most homosexual people do not actually care about transsexuality. So why should they complain about Zuckers work?
I tell you why - because he is also suppressing homosexuality in children (which most children with GID are according to the DSM IV). That's also why he is supported by many groups who advocate "reperative therapy" for homosexuality. He might personally not be for it, but he is still supporting it.
Bullshit he expressly says the exact oposite to your claim and is on record doing so.
As per you saying so. Then again, you were prejudiced right from the start - you claimed that transwomen are not women at the beginning, you are claiming it now. Regardless of any support or lack thereof for your position. And there is no such support.
As per reading the thread.
You are not worth hating nor are transgenders, i do not like you because of who you are as i have said.
So you consider transsexual people worthless. Nice one.
But if you would consider them worthwhile, you would hate them.
Really tolerant there.
What another lovely distortion and strawman, thats a keeper...


See pure obsession, you think WHO you are is a transexual......talk about living in the problem...
You do not know anything else about me. Hence, it is the only thing you can base your dislike on. Especially since you were not talking solely about behavior i demonstrated here - but about who i am.
I know you are a liar and a manipulator i know you have insulted me....now im saying that is because of who you are.....you claim you are doing it cos you are transgendered and as such im insulting you because you are transgendered...

See?, its just a strawman you created in order to give you a reason to use the "trannihater" spin........

You use it all the time and on everybody, its like a calling card.
My chromosomes. That's about it.
Other than that, there is nothing that won't be fixed within half a year. Well, except that i am unable to give birth, but i suppose that will also be true for your wife in a couple of years - i suppose you won't consider her a woman then either.
Everything about you apart from a bit if cosmetic surgery actually.
You apparently forgot that the evidence was not yet conclusive either way.
99.9% or more of the make up of a transgender brain matches their natural physical sex, only a tiny anomoly has so far been found and still needs a larger sampling and confirming, plus it has yet to be even close to being certainly defined as making any differance at all to gender issues.

However you made grand claims regarding it based on your personal bias and deep seeded need to have others think of you as female......... still finally you admit it so hoooray we have progress.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:19 pm
by Serafina
And again, nothing but the repetition of the former.

Gosh i must have hit a nerve.
You would like that, wouldn't you?
Encoraging correct/required behaviour with rewards.
Wow, you got something right that takes two minutes to research.
Too bad that Zucker is mostly using negative reinforcement.
That particular examnple is not no.
Then show where he advocates or uses positive reinforcement.
Encoraging or even telling children to play with other toys for several reasons as well as to play with other children is something parents do all the time, you will do so if you ever have kids. I certainly have and while it was not for a gender reason the fact is it is still a regular event in a childs life if they have responsable parents.
If you tell a child to play with someting it does not want to play with, is that positive reinforcement?
Just curious whether you can answer a simple question about psychology.
Angry deluded rantings from any group full of hate do not interest me, but nice distortion of the truth though...really in keeping with your debate tactics and honesty.
Ah, so they are deluded. Not better in any way, you are just digging your deeper and deeper.
The fact is that every responsable parent on the planet does what Zucker does in regards to stopping their children playing with certain kids or taking certain toys off them for one reason or another, its harmless and claiming it is some kind of emotional torture that will cause problems in later life is pathetic.
You are completely ignoring the effect and focus solely on the cause.
Bullshit he expressly says the exact oposite to your claim and is on record doing so.
And because he says so, it must be true.
How about addressing what i actually argued?
What another lovely distortion and strawman, thats a keeper...
Eh, if you can determine a persons whole personality based on some posts, then this is at least as reasonable.
Of course, the first isn't. I now could be childish and claim that i am using your method to show you, but instead i will just say that you said what you said and that you are doing it all over again.
I know you are a liar and a manipulator i know you have insulted me....now im saying that is because of who you are.....you claim you are doing it cos you are transgendered and as such im insulting you because you are transgendered...
Ah, so you think that being transsexual makes you more prone to being dishonest?
How is that not a prejudice?
Also, thanks for admitting that you insult me for being transgendered. What a lovely policy.
Everything about you apart from a bit if cosmetic surgery actually.
Oh, so much ignorance.

But let's do this step by step.
Brain structure: As per your own admission, hormones change it. Thus, my brain structure changes to female, with no discernible difference.
Genitalia: The surgery is so good that there is no discernible difference unless you look for reproductive organs. It is also fully functional, and often even embryology correct.
Body structure: While the bones do not change, the general body structure does. And gets female.
Breasts: Grow naturally trough hormone treatment. Are fully functional and in all ways identical to female breasts.
Facial and body hair: Can be removed without notable traces.
Voice: Trainable to be indiscernible from a normal female voice.
Genetics: The only thing that doesn't actually change. But not noticeable for anyone.

Now, you are of course going to say "but it's all artificial" or something like that.
But that is not only an appeal to nature, but also a genetic fallacy - you are focusing on the origin of something rather than on the something itself. That is fallacious, because it does not address the actual arguments.

In other words, your prejudice has not actual justification. Of course, you do not need one - but you are wrong regardless.
99.9% or more of the make up of a transgender brain matches their natural physical sex, only a tiny anomoly has so far been found and still needs a larger sampling and confirming, plus it has yet to be even close to being certainly defined as making any differance at all to gender issues.
That is wrong for several reasons.

First, most of the brain does not matter in regard to gender. It is also not clearly different between the sexes. Hence, most of your "99.9%" don't matter.
Second, that little part might well be all that matters. Given that we do not know how gender is caused in the brain, you can not rule out this "tiny anomaly" as a cause.

As i said, the evidence is not conclusive. But since you do not want evidence but prejudice and discrimination, you just ignore that and claim that it is.
However you made grand claims regarding it based on your personal bias and deep seeded need to have others think of you as female......... still finally you admit it so hoooray we have progress.
Yet another baseless claim.


Face it, Kor. You are a person with dozens of prejudices towards transsexual people. You have no justification for those prejudices whatsoever. You are arguing for brutal treatments of transsexual people and want to get rid of them if possible, which includes discrimination and segregation. You are unable to understand or present evidence, and you horribly distort it. But there is not a single scientist agreeing with you, not even Zucker. All of them disagree with your prejudice that transwomen are not women.
As i said, you are simply ignorant and prejudiced.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:34 am
by Kor_Dahar_Master
Serafina wrote: Too bad that Zucker is mostly using negative reinforcement.
So he takes away the girl toys and leaves them with nothing and punishes them?.

Please show the proof.
If you tell a child to play with someting it does not want to play with, is that positive reinforcement?
Encoraging a child to play with certain toys and rewarding it for doing so is.............but like the tranni/homo hate groups you spin it like the toys are removed without replacments and the child is pounished.

A disgusting distortion of the facts.
Ah, so they are deluded. Not better in any way, you are just digging your deeper and deeper.
Accusing a doctor of child abuse?, the APA and DSM of a cover up?, maybe deluded was a bit weak how about deranged?.
You are completely ignoring the effect and focus solely on the cause.
A happier well balanced child who grows up to NOT be part of a high suicide group?, id say thats a good effect, interestingly enough the test group Zucker used would now be between 30 and 40 years old and yet no scandal or complaints from them or other patients can be found.
And because he says so, it must be true.
Because you wish it other wise because of your bias he is lying?.

I know you are a liar and a manipulator i know you have insulted me....now im saying that is because of who you are.....you claim you are doing it cos you are transgendered and as such im insulting you because you are transgendered...
Ah, so you think that being transsexual makes you more prone to being dishonest?


Also, thanks for admitting that you insult me for being transgendered. What a lovely policy.
WOW another great keeper pof a distortion.

Are you capable of living outside your transgender issue at all?, can you not accept that i think you are all those things because that is your personality?, is a transgendered all you think you are?.

Brain structure: As per your own admission, hormones change it. Thus, my brain structure changes to female, with no discernible difference.
WRONG TOTAL EXHAGERATION YET AGAIN.

Hormones change it towards being slightly more female NOT to fully female.

so 1-0.
Genitalia: The surgery is so good that there is no discernible difference unless you look for reproductive organs. It is also fully functional, and often even embryology correct.
Body structure: While the bones do not change, the general body structure does. And gets female.
Breasts: Grow naturally trough hormone treatment. Are fully functional and in all ways identical to female breasts.
Facial and body hair: Can be removed without notable traces.
Lets just put this crap into one shall we...

There are plenty of good artists that can make good copies of famous works of art, but the fact is no matter how good they are they are still FAKE.

SO not the same and a normal female.

2-0 or 5-0 depending how we score it.
Voice: Trainable to be indiscernible from a normal female voice.
Can you do bill clinton?.

Im not even gonna score that absurdity.
Genetics: The only thing that doesn't actually change. But not noticeable for anyone.
6-0 then.
Now, you are of course going to say "but it's all artificial" or something like that.
Yea what is the world coming too when ppl point out the truth....

First, most of the brain does not matter in regard to gender.
If that is so you are full of crap for earlier claiming so in your list above.
Second, that little part might well be all that matters.
You wish.
Given that we do not know how gender is caused in the brain, you can not rule out this "tiny anomaly" as a cause.
And you cannot claim it is.
As i said, the evidence is not conclusive. But since you do not want evidence but prejudice and discrimination, you just ignore that and claim that it is.
Bull, most of this thread has been me and others showing that your interpretations of the unknown are just your biased desires, NOW you are saying it is unknown and that is actually true but im betting you will go back to making grand claims before long and denying saying this.......................
Face it, Kor. You are a person with dozens of prejudices towards transsexual people.
I do not like you and i pointed out how your grand claims about being female, having a female brian ect ect are wrong at at best no even close to being proven....
You have no justification for those prejudices whatsoever.


I have plenty for not liking you, the problem is you live in your transgender status so ever dislike of you is seen by you as a dislike of transgenders....very vey sick.
You are arguing for brutal treatments of transsexual people and want to get rid of them if possible, which includes discrimination and segregation.
Supporting a cure that reduces the high suicide rate and lets those who would be troubled live happy lives?....damn how evil am i....
You are unable to understand or present evidence, and you horribly distort it.


That is your little trick not mine.

Stop living in your illness and take a look at what a lying manipulative kind of person you are.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:11 am
by Serafina
And again, just Kors standard drivel.

So he takes away the girl toys and leaves them with nothing and punishes them?.
Guess what, taking something away is punishment and negative reinforcement.
Encoraging a child to play with certain toys and rewarding it for doing so is.............but like the tranni/homo hate groups you spin it like the toys are removed without replacments and the child is pounished.
It is defined as a punishment, yes.
Well, evidently you are unable to answer even basic psychology questions. Which makes you incapable of judging Zuckers method.
Accusing a doctor of child abuse?, the APA and DSM of a cover up?, maybe deluded was a bit weak how about deranged?.
And you just added a few more feet of depth.
A happier well balanced child who grows up to NOT be part of a high suicide group?, id say thats a good effect, interestingly enough the test group Zucker used
would now be between 30 and 40 years old and yet no scandal or complaints from them or other patients can be found.
It can. It's part of the complaints you and the APA dismissed outright.
Also, the fact that Zucker does no follow-up studies of them is a severe blunder.
Because you wish it other wise because of your bias he is lying?.
No, because his research is insufficient and not backed up by any other studies.
WOW another great keeper pof a distortion.

Are you capable of living outside your transgender issue at all?, can you not accept that i think you are all those things because that is your personality?, is a transgendered all you think you are?.
No, of course i am not. I am also lesbian, geeky, curious and so on.
But you are the one who thinks that transsexual people ought to be discriminated and insulted. And since i happen to be a member of that group, of course i feel addressed by that. Just like i would feel if you insulted any of the other parts of my personality.
WRONG TOTAL EXHAGERATION YET AGAIN.

Hormones change it towards being slightly more female NOT to fully female.

so 1-0.
You now discarded your own sources.
In other words, you are in denial. QED.
Lets just put this crap into one shall we...

There are plenty of good artists that can make good copies of famous works of art, but the fact is no matter how good they are they are still FAKE.

SO not the same and a normal female.

2-0 or 5-0 depending how we score it.
Genetic fallacy and appeal to nature. Both are fallacious.
Also, you ignore that all but the SRS are actually natural developments. With the possible exception of electrolysis, but there are more ciswomen than transwomen doing facial electrolysis.
Can you do bill clinton?.

Im not even gonna score that absurdity.
A complete red herring. Concession accepted.
6-0 then.
Given that genetics do not matter to anyone, no point for you there. Besides, you are entirely focusing on the differences and ignore the similarities - which is also fallacious.
Yea what is the world coming too when ppl point out the truth....
Both are fallacies and therefore not valid arguments. Of course, they are great for scaremongering and preaching of hate.
If that is so you are full of crap for earlier claiming so in your list above.
Either way works in my favor. Besides, you are engaging in a black&white fallacy here - the parts that are gendered change and those who aren't don't.
You wish.
Yes, i do. Got anything else but an ad hominem?
And you cannot claim it is.
Actually, i can. But i openly admit that it is speculation, while you appeal to a non-existent "absolute truth".
Bull, most of this thread has been me and others showing that your interpretations of the unknown are just your biased desires, NOW you are saying it is unknown and that is actually true but im betting you will go back to making grand claims before long and denying saying this.......................
I never denied after our exchange of scientific studies that it is not conclusive. You are the one who thinks it is.
I do not like you and i pointed out how your grand claims about being female, having a female brian ect ect are wrong at at best no even close to being proven....
Actually, all of my claims above are proven. Only the initial brain structure is yet subject to research, the others are already backed up by science.
I have plenty for not liking you, the problem is you live in your transgender status so ever dislike of you is seen by you as a dislike of transgenders....very vey sick.
Given that you repedeately make negative, generalizing statements about transsexual people and outright deny transwomen their rights and treat them like shit, i have plenty of reason for that assertion.
Supporting a cure that reduces the high suicide rate and lets those who would be troubled live happy lives?....damn how evil am i....
You are now ignoring all criticism against Zucker - again.
That is your little trick not mine.

Stop living in your illness and take a look at what a lying manipulative kind of person you are.
I have. Because i have to reflect about myself, else i would not be who i am and be stuck in what people like you forced on me.


Again, you are doing nothing but preaching hate against transsexual people and launching personal insults.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:37 am
by Kor_Dahar_Master
And again, just Kors standard drivel.
You know this is a loop right?, you see every critacism of you and your lies as a attack against transgenders in general (either deliberatly as a tactic, or because you are kinda mental) and i keep pointing it out?.

Guess what, taking something away is punishment and negative reinforcement.
Looking at things from a totally biased, blinkered and negative perspective i see how you would want to promote that perspective.

However their is a differance to doing that and encoraging and rewarding play with other toys, but like we know you ignore that and focus on your opinion and bias fueled theory on what he does.
And you just added a few more feet of depth.
Keep it going pal, im happy to clearly say for the record that Accusing a doctor of child abuse and the APA and DSM of a cover up regarding it is the act of deranged minds.

I am sure you will ignore a lot of that and focus on the "deranged" bit while constructing a strawman "he hates us" soap box speach....
It can. It's part of the complaints you and the APA dismissed outright.
Also, the fact that Zucker does no follow-up studies of them is a severe blunder.
Actually the APA dismissed them as absurd, along with the disgusting accusation of pedophilia and other repulsive hate tactics from individuals with the same personality as you seem to have.


You now discarded your own sources.
In other words, you are in denial. QED.
You are the one in denail, i suggest you reread the material....but then that would mean bursting your happy little delusion and we know how badly you reaxct to that.....
A complete red herring.
A red herring?, the fact you clearly say you can learn to "imitate" a real womans speach?.
Genetic Genetic fallacy and appeal to nature. Both are fallacious. and appeal to nature. Both are fallacious.
HOW WONDERFUL.... Scientific FACTS now become fallacies because it shows what you do not want it to.

S.."science good when it say what i want, science bad when it say what i not want"....congrats on yet another absurd argument...

Actually, all of my claims above are proven. Only the initial brain structure is yet subject to research, the others are already backed up by science.
The same science you dismiss when it shows summat you do not want it to?.

You have no definitive claims now because all those you made were debunked, so now you resort to vague comments and "its not proven either way" comments.

Pathetic.
Given that you repedeately make negative, generalizing statements about transsexual people and outright deny transwomen their rights and treat them like shit, i have plenty of reason for that assertion.
Strawman alert.

You are now ignoring all criticism against Zucker - again.
True but it comes from those that accused him of pedophillia ampoung other things, and it has all been thrown out by the APA ect.

But i am to take the word of hatemongers who resort to those sort of sick tactics over a medical board?...
Again, you are doing nothing but preaching hate against transsexual people and launching personal insults.
I do not hate transexual people you are confusing me not believing every word you say with hate.

And you are extreemly arrogant to think you speak on behalf of every single transexual when you voice your opinion of what i should and should not believe about them and what is and is not predjudicial against them all.

I judge my like and dislike of people based on their personality NOT on their sexual preferances, shoe size, dress style, race, colour, or gender.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:16 pm
by Serafina
You know this is a loop right?, you see every critacism of you and your lies as a attack against transgenders in general (either deliberatly as a tactic, or because you are kinda mental) and i keep pointing it out?.
Given that you just repeat your prejudices over and over again without any evidence, calling it a "standard" drivel is pretty accurate.


Looking at things from a totally biased, blinkered and negative perspective i see how you would want to promote that perspective.

However their is a differance to doing that and encoraging and rewarding play with other toys, but like we know you ignore that and focus on your opinion and bias fueled theory on what he does.
You are truly that ignorant, are you?
What Zucker does is the textbook definition of negative reinforcement.

Of course, if you had actually a clue about psychology, you would know that a negative reinforcement is not necessarily a bad thing. It's a pretty neutral thing. We generally prefer positive reinforcement since people respond better to positive reinforcement and since the safe limits (non-violent and harmful) of negative reinforcement is limited.
But negative reinforcement is not a bad thing. If you knew anything about psychology (or raising children) you would know that.

Keep it going pal, im happy to clearly say for the record that Accusing a doctor of child abuse and the APA and DSM of a cover up regarding it is the act of deranged minds.

I am sure you will ignore a lot of that and focus on the "deranged" bit while constructing a strawman "he hates us" soap box speach....
Given that you already admitted that you dislike transsexual people, i do not need to do that.
Actually the APA dismissed them as absurd, along with the disgusting accusation of pedophilia and other repulsive hate tactics from individuals with the same personality as you seem to have.
As i said, they dismissed them outright.
And they did not involve any accusations of pedophilia - some of them perhaps, but not the major ones. Either way, your drivel that none of Zuckers patients complain about him is not true.

You are the one in denail, i suggest you reread the material....but then that would mean bursting your happy little delusion and we know how badly you reaxct to that.....
Yes, you keep on claiming that.
A red herring?, the fact you clearly say you can learn to "imitate" a real womans speach?.
I never used the word "imitate". I said "Trainable to be indiscernible from a normal female voice.".
Given that that training (and there are also ciswomen who need logopedic training) changes your normal voice pattern, it is not imitation.
HOW WONDERFUL.... Scientific FACTS now become fallacies because it shows what you do not want it to.
What fact? Saying "it's artificial and therefore wrong" is not a scientific fact. It is indeed not a fact that it is artificial at all. The hormonal changes are natural.
The same science you dismiss when it shows summat you do not want it to?.

You have no definitive claims now because all those you made were debunked, so now you resort to vague comments and "its not proven either way" comments.

Pathetic.
You are not capable of any debunking. Only of fallacies.

Strawman alert.
Got anything else?
True but it comes from those that accused him of pedophillia ampoung other things, and it has all been thrown out by the APA ect.
Ah, a hasty generalization. Someone accused him of pedophilia (i would like to see the source for that) and therefore all people who criticizes him are nutjobs. Apparently, you are incapable of seeing your opponents as anything but a monolithic group, rather than several diverse groups and individuals.
But i am to take the word of hatemongers who resort to those sort of sick tactics over a medical board?...
Criticism is not a sick tactic.
I do not hate transexual people you are confusing me not believing every word you say with hate.
You say that, but you constantly insult transsexual people and their whole community
And you are extreemly arrogant to think you speak on behalf of every single transexual when you voice your opinion of what i should and should not believe about them and what is and is not predjudicial against them all.
I don't. I KNOW that there are many transsexual people with dissenting opinions. But i have yet to meet a single one who would not be disgusted by a person with your prejudiced views.
I judge my like and dislike of people based on their personality NOT on their sexual preferances, shoe size, dress style, race, colour, or gender.
Really?
So i suppose you never said that:
I know you are a liar and a manipulator i know you have insulted me....now im saying that is because of who you are.....you claim you are doing it cos you are transgendered and as such im insulting you because you are transgendered...
I rest my case. Let's wait for the judge.

Re: Transreality

Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:43 pm
by Kor_Dahar_Master
Given that you just repeat your prejudices over and over again without any evidence, calling it a "standard" drivel is pretty accurate.
I would say that your need to control what others think is the issue here.


What Zucker does is the textbook definition of negative reinforcement.
No it is not, you are letting your bias and predjudice control you.
Of course, if you had actually a clue about psychology, you would know that a negative reinforcement is not necessarily a bad thing. It's a pretty neutral thing. We generally prefer positive reinforcement since people respond better to positive reinforcement and since the safe limits (non-violent and harmful) of negative reinforcement is limited.
But negative reinforcement is not a bad thing. If you knew anything about psychology (or raising children) you would know that.
Nice strawman.

Please point out where i say its a bad thing, in fact i did say ealier that every responsable parent on the planet has done what he does.

And i need no parenting advise from a soon to be neutered wannabe female.



Given that you already admitted that you dislike transsexual people, i do not need to do that.
I clearly stated i dislike you, but as you live fully within in your gender issue i do not find it supprising you consider that a dislike for all transgenders everywhere.......damn your such a arrogant ass.
As i said, they dismissed them outright.
And they did not involve any accusations of pedophilia - some of them perhaps, but not the major ones. Either way, your drivel that none of Zuckers patients complain about him is not true.
Dismissed outright..........correct.

And they did not involve any accusations of pedophilia......oh erm but some did......

The drivel is yours.
What fact? Saying "it's artificial and therefore wrong" is not a scientific fact.
Saying "it's artificial and therefore it is not the same" is perfectly scientific.
Apparently, you are incapable of seeing your opponents as anything but a monolithic group, rather than several diverse groups and individuals.
Actually that is how you wish to parcel me up as, i told you i dislike you cos of you but you insist i dislike you cos you are transgender and therefore i hate all trqansgendered....

It is you who cannot get past it pal not me, you could be as gender stable as me and you would still be a lying, manipulative asshole.
Criticism is not a sick tactic.
Baseless accusations of pedophillia to try and discredit are.
You say that, but you constantly insult transsexual people and their whole community
Arrogance to think your perspective encompases the entire transgender community..sheer arrogance.
I don't. I KNOW that there are many transsexual people with dissenting opinions. But i have yet to meet a single one who would not be disgusted by a person with your prejudiced views.
Concession accepted.

When you have spoken to all and have been told you can speak for all get back to me.
I judge my like and dislike of people based on their personality NOT on their sexual preferances, shoe size, dress style, race, colour, or gender.
Really?
So i suppose you never said that:
I know you are a liar and a manipulator i know you have insulted me....now im saying that is because of who you are.....you claim you are doing it cos you are transgendered and as such im insulting you because you are transgendered...
I rest my case. Let's wait for the judge.
You need to learn how to read.......il point out what you missed in your delusion of transexual hate.
I know you are a liar and a manipulator i know you have insulted me....now im saying that is because of who you are.....you claim you are doing it cos you are transgendered and as such im insulting you because you are transgendered...
It is clear to any nonfoaming at the mouth chip on his shoulder paranoid persecution complex lunatic what i am saying so im not supprised you missed it.

I am clearly pointing out your delusion, but then considering your total obsession its understandable you would only see the last few words rather than the entire context.

Next rant please....