PROTOMATTER -- where are we?

[Mr. Oragahn]

That's from a quote that never appeared in any of the shows, right? You said it was a writer commentary of some kind. If so, it's not canon.

I was saying how it was mentioned by the author of the show and was supported in the show. In that show, the terraformer used protomatter to reignite a star and had used that technology to terraform other planets.

That's terribly vague. How is it supported? All I see is that the star resurrection achievement is indeed supported, and that there were references about terraforming worlds.
What you call support is speculation as far as I can tell.

That's rather assumptious given that we have no idea how that stuff works. For all we know, simply adding the three together could create that; like matter and antimatter.

For all we know, it could completely fail. Thinking that just strapping three exotic elements together and saying it will work is pure wishful thinking.
Making a fairly simple fission bomb requires very specific conditions, parameters and minute tweaking.

It was, but my point was how the show was a pointer to ST2 and ST3, I didn't soley base it on that comment. Don't you think it would be odd to have something be a tribute to something else, but not have any mention of it in said episode?

The non canon commentaries lead you to think that way. If you work from what is presented, and only that, the rest is speculation.

So, you're suggesting that a scientist ready to perform suicide and wanted his success to live on would not write down anything about it (and he isn't selfish enough to keep it to himself, just in that episode he gave away his prized secret sauce for kicks), that Starfleet would let him borrow a Nebula class starship , and allow the use of protomatter, a highly dangerous substance on a star without any kind of back up of his claims? Besides that, we know that Dax was supposed to be working on it with him, one might hope that she would have an idea of what he was doing, given that she was a) the science officer and b) his assistant.
What you're claiming is basically that a scientists did not keep any records of his experiment. Why in God's name would any scientist worth their salt do that? Making notes and such is pretty much a given for all but the most incompetent amongst them.

I'm not the one who writes Trek. You cannot keep saying the UFP has collected the most important part of the data and yet fails to show any standardization of such achievements or related protomatter technology beyond the tricks played by lone eccentric geniuses in remote corners of the galaxy.

People seem to only know the big lines, not the real scientific key factors which matter, nah?

I'm sorry, but what? Are you suggesting Starfleet has no idea how protomatter could be used for terraforming? Why would that even make any sense?

No, that's the big line. I'm talking about the rules of thumbs, little secrets, details all that stuff that scientists, borderline artists, working alone, wouldn't necessarily bother putting down on paper.

[Mith]

The suggestion being that it may be a matter of scale. Working on a cave is good. Working on the surface of a planet, and eventually heating up the core somehow may work but we don't know. However, assembling a planet out of the blue didn't.

No, that clearly didn't work. I suspect that the Federation declared the large scale terraforming thing a failure, simply due to the double edged sword of it being used as a weapon.

Why not? He's credited for two worlds, no? I don't have the details, but do we even have proof he terraformed entire planets each time?

He terraformed two planets, but not from scratch, or at least one he didn't. One planet actually had inhabitants and we already saw that the Genesis device wouldn't work too well with that method. I do believe each one took months to do, but I would have to check up on it. But it isn't nearly as fast as the Genesis Device.

Without the details, we can't tell. He may have started multiple projects which would take years to do so. He may have put machines doing the terraforming for him over one or two decades.
Trek is riff with stuff that revitalizes planets without going into the lands of protomatter.

Actually he would go from project to project; moving onto one after he finished the other. At least, that's the impression he gave.

I don't deny the achievement. It's even possible that the instability of protomatter helps reignite stars, but the sheer mass prevents it from being scattered, thus turning it into a giant fusion ball again.

Protomatter works by actually altering matter; the Genesis Device literally showed being able to turn a dead world's surface into a fully opperable paradise. It seems that you just have to program it to do that (somehow).

I suppose this seems reasonnable. The man killed himself, but he didn't destroy his lab. That said, whatever he knew and didn't write down is definitely lost. Depending on how Seyetik managed his data, this can swing both ways, while likely putting the basics "on paper", at least.

Actually, I'm willing to guess that he probably had copies of his work and it was pretty well laid out for the Federation to approve of it and allow the use of the Prometheus.

[Mike DiCenso]

I suppose this seems reasonnable. The man killed himself, but he didn't destroy his lab. That said, whatever he knew and didn't write down is definitely lost. Depending on how Seyetik managed his data, this can swing both ways, while likely putting the basics "on paper", at least.

Actually, I'm willing to guess that he probably had copies of his work and it was pretty well laid out for the Federation to approve of it and allow the use of the Prometheus.

Given Professor Seyetik's personality, I can't imagine the guy not wanting to share his work with anyone. Also, we have to keep in mind that Seyetik did not kill himself because he hated his work or something like that, he did it to free his wife and save her life.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

He terraformed two planets, but not from scratch, or at least one he didn't. One planet actually had inhabitants and we already saw that the Genesis device wouldn't work too well with that method. I do believe each one took months to do, but I would have to check up on it. But it isn't nearly as fast as the Genesis Device.

Actually, I'm willing to guess that he probably had copies of his work and it was pretty well laid out for the Federation to approve of it and allow the use of the Prometheus.

We know nothing of how they moved onto this project. It's, again, much speculation.

I suppose this seems reasonnable. The man killed himself, but he didn't destroy his lab. That said, whatever he knew and didn't write down is definitely lost. Depending on how Seyetik managed his data, this can swing both ways, while likely putting the basics "on paper", at least.

Actually, I'm willing to guess that he probably had copies of his work and it was pretty well laid out for the Federation to approve of it and allow the use of the Prometheus.

Given Professor Seyetik's personality, I can't imagine the guy not wanting to share his work with anyone. Also, we have to keep in mind that Seyetik did not kill himself because he hated his work or something like that, he did it to free his wife and save her life.
-Mike

Considering that his researches ruined his wife's life and how she grew to hate him so much, if I get it properly, there are just as many chances he'd actually hate what he's done, his projects, and would object to anyone else putting a hand on it.
The other thing being that it doesn't seem the UFP was getting any update or report on his works and breakthroughs.

[Mike DiCenso]

Considering that his researches ruined his wife's life and how she grew to hate him so much, if I get it properly, there are just as many chances he'd actually hate what he's done, his projects, and would object to anyone else putting a hand on it.

No, that is completely opposite how he acted in the episode, even to the end of his life. He did what he did as his one true selfless act. He did not destroy his lab or state that eh did not want his work be continued.

The other thing being that it doesn't seem the UFP was getting any update or report on his works and breakthroughs.

Which is why Starfleet and the Federation gave him access to a starship to carry out his experiment on the dead star, or that Dax appeared to be pretty familiar with his theory?
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Considering that his researches ruined his wife's life and how she grew to hate him so much, if I get it properly, there are just as many chances he'd actually hate what he's done, his projects, and would object to anyone else putting a hand on it.

No, that is completely opposite how he acted in the episode, even to the end of his life. He did what he did as his one true selfless act. He did not destroy his lab or state that eh did not want his work be continued.

You know, just erasing data on a computer is enough, you don't need to nuke a lab to prove that you don't wish your knowledge and researches falling into other hands.
For all we know, he could see these projects as a curse, and therefore trying to put an end to it by both killing himself, thus freeing his wife, and reigniting the star to help those people.

The other thing being that it doesn't seem the UFP was getting any update or report on his works and breakthroughs.

Which is why Starfleet and the Federation gave him access to a starship to carry out his experiment on the dead star, or that Dax appeared to be pretty familiar with his theory?
-Mike

Yes, she/he does.
Yet every single reference to a protomatter related project looks like a big secret that is unveiled, baffling everybody around, even more when it works.
Dax knew stuff about it, but iirc, some other people thought this was made up or scoffed at the idea.
It's more like Dax would have read a paper by a crazy scientist doing some bizarre stuff somewhere with protomatter, claiming he'd managed to create something, yet most scientists would laugh at Seyetik. Nonetheless, Dax would cut the paper article and keep it, or clearly remember this. The symbiote (excuse the term) has good memories, right?

Talking about symbiotes, making a parallel with Stargate's Daniel Jackson and his theories of aliens landing on pyramids, being utterly ridiculized, and then disappearing is a good example of what could have happened. Either he kept working on this project which he believed in (SG-1 continuity) or he dropped the ball (Continuum), or something midways.

Why the ship? It's the UFP. It's Star Trek. It seems that people have more faith in tolerance, imagination and science. When you find families in what stands as warships (TNG era) and see kiddos walking around holding antimatter in glass balls they took from a slot in their private quarters, as part of their studies, I think devoting a space ship to attempt saving people while there's no other option is still a good take.

Ultimately, and you're not going to like it, there's no proof Seyetik transmitted his knowledge to the UFP.

[Mith]

We know nothing of how they moved onto this project. It's, again, much speculation.

So let me get this straight; you'r claiming that despite the fact that we know that the Federation won't do shit unless they have solid evidence of a theory, such as is the case with the episode that dealt with warp damaging subspace. You're also suggesting that the Federation spare the use of Nebula class starship...get that, a NEBULA GOD DAMN STARSHIP for some wild, crazy plan that may not have worked?

In order to accep this idea, the Federation would have to be the biggest bunch of idiots in the galaxy.

Considering that his researches ruined his wife's life and how she grew to hate him so much, if I get it properly, there are just as many chances he'd actually hate what he's done, his projects, and would object to anyone else putting a hand on it.
The other thing being that it doesn't seem the UFP was getting any update or report on his works and breakthroughs.

*sigh*

No. This wasn't his first wife. This was like his 5th, 6th, 7th, or 8th...God I can't remember. All the others left him, but his current wife could not because her race mated for life. Despite the fact that she hated him, she couldn't leave him (for some biological reason).

What he did wasn't a depressive act to end his life; it was his crowning achievement. He decided that his wife should be free of him and happy, as well as deciding that after terraforming a star, he would have nothing else to do, which is why there is an attribute to Kang's Poem in that episode. It was about a warrior who had slain all of his enemies so that there were none left and he became pitied. He didn't want to be that man.

Even at the end he was basically his cheerful self; he basically went out with a bang saying "Let there be light!"

This argument of him wanting to delete his work is...unproven and unfounded. Even worse still; it isn't anything like him. The guy basically even went to the extent of asking Sisko if he could tell everyone that he sacrificed himself on the altar of science. To kill himself and delete his data would be to undo all that he ever accomplished in his life. This man was willing to even give away his secret recipie just because someone asked! Why would he keep knowledge that could create life over the entire galaxy?

He wouldn't. He didn't. And until you can prove with evidence that he would do something like this, including acting in a way that was totally out of his character, you're coming across as horribly thick.

[Mith]

You know, just erasing data on a computer is enough, you don't need to nuke a lab to prove that you don't wish your knowledge and researches falling into other hands.

Um...why? Why wouldn't he do that? And why wouldn't he also kill Dax, who had studied his work? I mean, he was going to kill himself anyway, so why not bother killing her?

Furthermore, do you have evidence that he did such a thing?

For all we know, he could see these projects as a curse, and therefore trying to put an end to it by both killing himself, thus freeing his wife, and reigniting the star to help those people.

...and so a man who kills himself because he sees his exploits as a curse would go out smiling while shouting a line from Genesis. About a project based off of something called Genesis.

And what people was he helping? There wasn't any life in that system. He was terraforming the star for shits and giggles as far as helping others were concerened. In fact, according to your claim, he didn't help "those people" because he deleted the data that could save systems with dying stars.

Yes, she/he does.
Yet every single reference to a protomatter related project looks like a big secret that is unveiled, baffling everybody around, even more when it works.
Dax knew stuff about it, but iirc, some other people thought this was made up or scoffed at the idea.
It's more like Dax would have read a paper by a crazy scientist doing some bizarre stuff somewhere with protomatter, claiming he'd managed to create something, yet most scientists would laugh at Seyetik. Nonetheless, Dax would cut the paper article and keep it, or clearly remember this. The symbiote (excuse the term) has good memories, right?

...Seyetik was considered to be one of the Federation's best scientist. Compard to him, Dax was just a girl with a magnifying glass looking at ants in her backyard. No one was suggesting that his theory was crackpot or silly. Was everyone as confident as Seyetik was? No, but that's also because Seyetik was an egomanic. He even admitted it; he has a large ego. Dax was more reserved; he hadn't proven that it would totally work yet. It hadn't been tested. After all, what he was proposing to do was something that was beyond what protomatter could do...at least stabely.

Why the ship? It's the UFP. It's Star Trek. It seems that people have more faith in tolerance, imagination and science. When you find families in what stands as warships (TNG era) and see kiddos walking around holding antimatter in glass balls they took from a slot in their private quarters, as part of their studies, I think devoting a space ship to attempt saving people while there's no other option is still a good take.

First off, Wesely was a basic Mary Sue genius; and we see little of this ever again. Nog sure as hell didn't due anything that stupid-er, "advanced".

But again, what in the hell are you talking about? There wasn't anyone to save. That star had already been dead. That system didn't have any population.

Ultimately, and you're not going to like it, there's no proof Seyetik transmitted his knowledge to the UFP.

Despite the fact that he's a Federation scientist, let Dax look at his work because she was assigned to assist him (by Starfleet, an extension of the Federation), was more than willing to give away other secrets, had convinced the Federation to let him use at the time was the second to third most advanced starship in the fleet (but of course, they wouldn't bother asking what he planned to do...), and he had no bitter feelings towards the Federation or anyone else.

So...where are you getting the evidence that he chucked out all of his data for no good reason?

[Mr. Oragahn]

We know nothing of how they moved onto this project. It's, again, much speculation.

So let me get this straight; you'r claiming that despite the fact that we know that the Federation won't do shit unless they have solid evidence of a theory, such as is the case with the episode that dealt with warp damaging subspace.

What solid evidence? It was the first time they were going to use Seyetik's tech.

You're also suggesting that the Federation spare the use of Nebula class starship...get that, a NEBULA GOD DAMN STARSHIP for some wild, crazy plan that may not have worked?
In order to accep this idea, the Federation would have to be the biggest bunch of idiots in the galaxy.

Hey, that's exactly what they did. Using a science vessel to monitor a major science project which was built upon theory, which some of Sisko's close officers even doubted.
They needed a good ship (warp 9.5 to 9.6) so ig anything would go wrong, they could at least hope to fly away.

Now, having read the script in detail, I can see the facts:

Seyetik is a known Federation scientist and terraformer, a great mind.
Terraformer is a recognized activity. They're however described as being egomaniac people to some degree.
Blue Horizon and New Halana are terraformed places which are known by the Federation.
Seyetik wrote nine volumes (one per wife), part of his autobiography (not science books mind you).
Seyetik built the protomatter containment capsule himself.
Before his death, Seyetik left an obituary he wrote himself, and wanted it sent to the Daystrom Institute for publication.

We're basically back at the same point. What did he leave in those books, and what did he leave in any computer?

I'll notice that he worked alone, that he hardly took help from the Federation up to that point. He was very proud of his work and reigniting a star would be his crowning achievement, making world terraforming a child's play.

Right, he didn't seem to overtly hate his work, was proud and cheerful, but he still knew what it did to him, and what it did to Nidell.
When his wife is about to die, you see the other Seyetik. So where are we?

Nowhere. It can swing both ways.

[Mith]

What solid evidence? It was the first time they were going to use Seyetik's tech.

It is not Seyetik's technology. It's teh Federation's, he was just building upon it. The technology has been useable since the late 23rd century.

Hey, that's exactly what they did. Using a science vessel to monitor a major science project which was built upon theory, which some of Sisko's close officers even doubted.

Um, no. No one doubted that he could pull it off, they just weren't as sure as he would. In their minds, it was a very possible event, but they didn't have their minds 100% convinced that it would work.

They needed a good ship (warp 9.5 to 9.6) so ig anything would go wrong, they could at least hope to fly away.

Since when do sub-space shockwaves move at warp nine?

Now, having read the script in detail, I can see the facts:

Seyetik is a known Federation scientist and terraformer, a great mind.
Terraformer is a recognized activity. They're however described as being egomaniac people to some degree.

No, Seyetik is described as an egomaniac. Not terraformers in general.

Blue Horizon and New Halana are terraformed places which are known by the Federation.

Imagine that.

Seyetik wrote nine volumes (one per wife), part of his autobiography (not science books mind you).

One would think that if you didn't want others to learn your secrets, you wouldn't advertise about the great success of your secrets...

Seyetik built the protomatter containment capsule himself.

And?

Before his death, Seyetik left an obituary he wrote himself, and wanted it sent to the Daystrom Institute for publication.

Yes.

We're basically back at the same point. What did he leave in those books, and what did he leave in any computer?

The fact of the matter is that Seyetik is a scientist. I don't know any scientist worth their salt who doesn't share their amazing discovery and not give away how it works or hordes such secrets to make himself feel important. Seyetik never displayed any of these acts and we saw that Dax herself was abreast to some degree on how his terraforming device worked.

I'll notice that he worked alone, that he hardly took help from the Federation up to that point. He was very proud of his work and reigniting a star would be his crowning achievement, making world terraforming a child's play.

Right, he didn't seem to overtly hate his work, was proud and cheerful, but he still knew what it did to him, and what it did to Nidell.
When his wife is about to die, you see the other Seyetik. So where are we?

Nowhere. It can swing both ways.

Again, this is ignoring all facts about previous facts. The Federation would not allow someone to use one of their largest, most powerful ships if he did not give enough evidence that other scientists could confirm is possible. Dax thought it was possible, but clearly wasn't as sure. As a science officer, one would expect she would have looked at the theory and technology before making a judgement.

The fact that Dax was able to look at the technology is pretty much enough to know that Seyetik didn't mind her knowing about it. In fact, I don't ever recall her getting her knowledge from him. To finish the argument off, we have no evidence that he likes to keep his goodies a secret; in fact he willingly shares them. So unless you can provide a valuable motive as to why he would never want anyone to see his advancement in science, your claims are unsuportable.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Just posting a link to the script, for future posts.