Star wars vs star trek......what the hell

[User1442]

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I think you're largely incorrect about the true outcome of the debate between Robert Scott Anderson and Mike Wong.
If anything, if you spend more time over this board - assuming you are here for good reasons - youwill see the evidence, and not necessarily the new kind but sources formerly ignored or quoted out of context, which prove RSA largely right over time.

Now it doesn't mean he's right about everything, far from it.

I just conceded that wong didn't win.

[Mike DiCenso]

There is something you should look at very carefully on Wong's hatepage, especially when it comes to the formal debates he agreed to with people like Lord Edam de Fromage and Robert Scott Anderson, then take a look at Lord Edam and RSA's unedited version on their websites (I don't think Edam's website is up anymore, but you can look it up on the Wayback Machine site). You will see that Wong is just a bit dishonest in how he edits what they say so that it looks as though his opponet does not know what they are talking about, or that he is the winner, when he clearly is not. Wong loves to delcare victory quite a bit, dispite not having won anything, and he will do whatever it takes to make it look that way, no matter what.
-Mike

[Lucky]

There is something you should look at very carefully on Wong's hatepage, especially when it comes to the formal debates he agreed to with people like Lord Edam de Fromage and Robert Scott Anderson, then take a look at Lord Edam and RSA's unedited version on their websites (I don't think Edam's website is up anymore, but you can look it up on the Wayback Machine site). You will see that Wong is just a bit dishonest in how he edits what they say so that it looks as though his opponet does not know what they are talking about, or that he is the winner, when he clearly is not. Wong loves to delcare victory quite a bit, dispite not having won anything, and he will do whatever it takes to make it look that way, no matter what.
-Mike

Stardestroyer.net is literally and purposely a joke. It is purposely written and moderated to pro-Imperial propaganda.

Do you have the address for Lord Edam's site? Having the adress makes using the Wayback machine much easier.

[Mike DiCenso]

Lord Edam's site used to be at http://www.trek-wars.co.uk.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

So what the hell is up with this. It seems like all the trekkies are a bunch of whiny oafs always spouting conjectures about how the federation would kick the empires ass with no evidence to back them up. They come out with the stupidest scenario's and if you disagree their so stubborn on their points that all you can think is "gay fanboy here!"

Meanwhile the star wars fans are always assuming that their stuff is better. I mean yes, statistical probability states that with a force as large as theirs they could do it,

but does that mean they would? NO! I mean how many battles have been fought in the past where a superior number of forces was defeated by a smaller one.

With superior weapons and shields, it's a no-lose situation, regardless of numbers. For example, a pioneer with a single Winchester-rifle was able to defeat 1000 mounted Plains-Indians with bows and arrows; and he didn't even have shields.
Likewise, 90% of the Native American population was wiped out by simple childhood-illnesses, to which Eastern-Hemisphere become naturally immune after contracting them once; and thus they died because they were unable to cure it, unlike the White man who cured syphillis after contracting it conversely.

Pretty much i think it would be much more productive if people from both sides got together, stopped bickering like a bunch of virgin fanboy's and got the facts straight. Then when all thats said and done, LIVE WITH IT

You're an idiot if you think the warsies are objective-- just like you're even bigger idiot if you think that schtuping a girl makes you a man, when in reality it's just the source of where we get the LITTLE idiots.

[KirkSkyWalker]

This is the least biased place I've found on the web to debate. Everywhere else seems to be biased towards Wars...heavily, and although this site is biased towards Trek I've noticed most people are open to everyone's ideas. Actually discussion happens here without petty bickering.

Here's the thing, these are fictional universes with fictional rules of physics, which break their own rules. There's really no black and white comparison, so everything ends up being a judgement call. And people with strong opinions will only become more devout in their belief when they find more people that believe like they do. It becomes a snowball effect.

You're confusing fictitiious with arbitrary, since everything in both stories can be held to standard rules of consistency and plausibility according to on-screen precedent. In fact, when held to this with any degree of intellectual honesty, many things are clear-- as shown on St-v-sw.net, Trek pretty clearly wipes the floor with SW so badly that it's not even funny.

It's one thing to have "strong opinions" if they're well-based-- but if shown their mistakes, a rational person would admit it. But Warsies are simply pathological narcissists who believe that their opinions can't be wrong simply because they're theirs-- and everything about their behavior proves it, just like with Al-Queda or any other rabid jingoist-cult (and SDN has the gall to accuse Trekkies of being "Federation cultists!").

[KirkSkyWalker]

There is something you should look at very carefully on Wong's hatepage, especially when it comes to the formal debates he agreed to with people like Lord Edam de Fromage and Robert Scott Anderson, then take a look at Lord Edam and RSA's unedited version on their websites (I don't think Edam's website is up anymore, but you can look it up on the Wayback Machine site). You will see that Wong is just a bit dishonest in how he edits what they say so that it looks as though his opponet does not know what they are talking about, or that he is the winner, when he clearly is not. Wong loves to delcare victory quite a bit, dispite not having won anything, and he will do whatever it takes to make it look that way, no matter what.
-Mike

Stardestroyer.net is literally and purposely a joke.

You're half right; they're not trying to be funny in the way that they actually are.
Just read Mike Wong's section on canon, and the mental gymnastics by which he claims that the books are valid canon for discussion-purposes-- just like he claims that "Occam's Razor" means that the simpler explanation is always right.

There, you'll see how they twist and torture everything into simply confessing the foregone-answer they wanted in the first place-- and if anyone disagrees, then it's FLAME ON! that would make The Human Torch look like Dr. Freeze.

[Mr. Oragahn]

This is the least biased place I've found on the web to debate. Everywhere else seems to be biased towards Wars...heavily, and although this site is biased towards Trek I've noticed most people are open to everyone's ideas. Actually discussion happens here without petty bickering.

Here's the thing, these are fictional universes with fictional rules of physics, which break their own rules. There's really no black and white comparison, so everything ends up being a judgement call. And people with strong opinions will only become more devout in their belief when they find more people that believe like they do. It becomes a snowball effect.

You're confusing fictitiious with arbitrary, since everything in both stories can be held to standard rules of consistency and plausibility according to on-screen precedent. In fact, when held to this with any degree of intellectual honesty, many things are clear-- as shown on St-v-sw.net, Trek pretty clearly wipes the floor with SW so badly that it's not even funny.

Hold the phone!

Beating the Empire is one thing. The Empire is a house of cards resting on Palpatine's shoulders. Behead the beast and it crumbles. The Rebels get in, the various Moffs fight or unite, it's a big mess, and basically you just have to eat popcorn.

Defeating Star Wars is entirely different. No one will accept deals with a force that comes to their galaxy with the intent of subjugating it and destroying it. Now, you can fool people, you can fake deals, but at some point you'll get an entire galaxy willing to fight back, unless you are really:
1. unstoppable
2. cunning and offering a very tempting and good deal (sort of Crest of the Stars, and even then it's faaaar from perfect).

But saying that Trek can beat SW is silly.
The whole galaxy comes with a fantastic momentum. You can only take little pieces of it. SW guys won't be totally stupid.
We know they can build weapons with great range: warships back in ROTS had ranges in the hundreds of kilometers, with turbolasers fast enough to cover that distance in a couple seconds.
We know that their planetary turbolasers have ranges in the thousands of kilometers (by the EU).
We know that if you fly on a more or less predictable path, there are ion cannons which can take your ship down in one shot from several thousand kilometers away, and up to 180,000 km in the EU (max range, the optimal range being 4000 km.

Mixed to the planetary shield technology, something tells me that Trek trying to take the SW galaxy would not be a walk in the park at all.
At some point, the galaxy as a whole would have reacted well enough to possess means to defend itself.

They can still an old superlaser design and work on a much smaller variant, enough to get long range shooting with near instant-hit beams.

It's one thing to have "strong opinions" if they're well-based-- but if shown their mistakes, a rational person would admit it. But Warsies are simply pathological narcissists who believe that their opinions can't be wrong simply because they're theirs-- and everything about their behavior proves it, just like with Al-Queda or any other rabid jingoist-cult (and SDN has the gall to accuse Trekkies of being "Federation cultists!").

They're not all like that. You're only focusing on a percentage, that percentage being itself a more or less large fraction of SDN-style warsies.
The larger fanbase is not like that.

[Praeothmin]

I've seen a few remarks that come close to insults.
Please try to comment on the situation without the venom.
Ok thanks... :)

[Lucky]

Stardestroyer.net is literally and purposely a joke.

You're half right; they're not trying to be funny in the way that they actually are.

The joke is that the site is not meant to be honest, and it is written and moderated that way. Only someone who is ignorant would use the conclusions reached without checking the sources first.

The joke is on those who think Wong is seriously trying to portay an accurate description of Star wars and star Trek. Sadly most don't seem to understand this.-_-

Just read Mike Wong's section on canon, and the mental gymnastics by which he claims that the books are valid canon for discussion-purposes-- just like he claims that "Occam's Razor" means that the simpler explanation is always right.

What books are you talking about?

The Star Trek Tech Manuals are purposely filled with misinformation by the UFP.^_^

[User1356]

There is always bias one way or the other, on every vs. board on the internet. If there was no bias, there would be no debate.

[Mr. Oragahn]

There is always bias one way or the other, on every vs. board on the internet. If there was no bias, there would be no debate.

Indeed, without any bias, there's only one but, and that's just not enough.

[Mike DiCenso]

Bias certainly is necessary to the versus debates. However, without some measure of balance and honesty on both sides, it is worthless. With the SDN crowd, they cannot and will not ever allow any sort of advantage to be given to Star Trek. That's always been my big issue, and why I miss the old Strek-vs-Swars.net forum. Trek biased, but the mods were fair and balanced to everyone.
-Mike

[Lucky]

There is always bias one way or the other, on every vs. board on the internet. If there was no bias, there would be no debate.

It is not a matter of there is a bias at Stardestroyer.net, but how bias, and the fact the bias is taken to a foolish extreme on purpose.

[KirkSkyWalker]

We know they can build weapons with great range: warships back in ROTS had ranges in the hundreds of kilometers, with turbolasers fast enough to cover that distance in a couple seconds.
We know that their planetary turbolasers have ranges in the thousands of kilometers (by the EU).

So they have STL weapons with 1% of a starship’s range—and that’s only in the EU.
Starships can strike from HUNDREDS of thousands of kilometers (TNG: “The Wounded”).

We know that if you fly on a more or less predictable path, there are ion cannons which can take your ship down in one shot from several thousand kilometers away, and up to 180,000 km in the EU (max range, the optimal range being 4000 km.

IF your ship doesn’t have deflector-dshes, subspace deflector-shields and primary force-fields like the Federation starships do. Ions don’t affect Federation ships.

Mixed to the planetary shield technology, something tells me that Trek trying to take the SW galaxy would not be a walk in the park at all.

Sure, if you consider the EU to be canon, like SDN does. Otherwise it’s as easy as falling off a log—and the EU isn’t canon.

They can still an old superlaser design and work on a much smaller variant, enough to get long range shooting with near instant-hit beams.

If you consider .168C to be “near instant-hit—“ while phasers move at tens of thousands of times lightspeed.

It's one thing to have "strong opinions" if they're well-based-- but if shown their mistakes, a rational person would admit it. But Warsies are simply pathological narcissists who believe that their opinions can't be wrong simply because they're theirs-- and everything about their behavior proves it, just like with Al-Queda or any other rabid jingoist-cult (and SDN has the gall to accuse Trekkies of being "Federation cultists!").

They're not all like that.
You're only focusing on a percentage, that percentage being itself a more or less large fraction of SDN-style warsies. The larger fanbase is not like that.

I’m talking specifically about SDN-style Warsies, and I am in the larger SW fanbase. The fact is that the SDN’ers don’t care about facts, they’re just addicted (LITERALLY addicted) to the notion Empire winning, and thus they’re in pathological denial of anything else, and will attack anyone who even suggests it.
That’s the problem about “cult” films—the cults!