The Galactic Empire vs The Cardassian Union

[Admiral Breetai]

and you think purchasing starcharts would not really help at all in this situation? mind ye they aren't designed to document hyperlanes obviously but trek powers tend to be very thorough about documenting stellar anomalies

as to the hyperlane bit yeah a blockade definitely would be doable the question is can the Cardassian economy hold out

[Mike DiCenso]

and you think purchasing starcharts would not really help at all in this situation? mind ye they aren't designed to document hyperlanes obviously but trek powers tend to be very thorough about documenting stellar anomalies

But why would anyone sell the Empire anything like that? The topic OP more or less ignores canon in order to have the Ferengi sell the starcharts, but that's really a copout compared to the fact that the canon depiction of them in DS9 they did not sell out to the Dominion, though the remained carefully neutral with an eye towards possibly joining in with the Federation and it's alliance. Another thing to consider, if making new hyperlanes was easy as pie, why didn't the Galactic Republic do that during the Clone Wars, as they had most of the resources, very nearly identical technology to the Galactic Empire of just two decades later?

as to the hyperlane bit yeah a blockade definitely would be doable the question is can the Cardassian economy hold out

The Cardassian economy appears to be replicator based, which means they should have little trouble producing sufficent mines, even if those mines cannot be cloaked like the ones the Klingons, Federation, and Romulans have canonically made use of for up to two centuries. The trick is to keep harassing and sabotaging the Empire's efforts at establishing an effective strategic, or even tactical hyperlane route. Without that, the Empire is stuck largely where they began, and are limited to controling a relatively small area of space only a few parsecs wide.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

[

But why would anyone sell the Empire anything like that? The topic OP more or less ignores canon in order to have the Ferengi sell the starcharts, but that's really a copout compared to the fact that the canon depiction of them in DS9 they did not sell out to the Dominion, though the remained carefully neutral with an eye towards possibly joining in with the Federation and it's alliance. Another thing to consider, if making new hyperlanes was easy as pie, why didn't the Galactic Republic do that during the Clone Wars, as they had most of the resources, very nearly identical technology to the Galactic Empire of just two decades later?

the reason why i specified that was because While the Dominion had the technological ability and the might to produce small scouts that could flatten an a non upgraded Galaxy I doubt the empire can claim the same

I don't think the Empires in any position currently to threaten the ferengi the way the founders where..hence why i stipulated tht

as to Hyperlanes the impression I got was the empire was..but very slowly finding new hyperlanes

[

The Cardassian economy appears to be replicator based,

see I figured they had some form of replicator technology but seeing as they suffered a total economic collapse to the extent of food shortages from fighting essentially a border war with a pacified largely stagnant Federation..it makes me wonder to what extent

[Mike DiCenso]

the reason why i specified that was because While the Dominion had the technological ability and the might to produce small scouts that could flatten an a non upgraded Galaxy I doubt the empire can claim the same

I don't think the Empires in any position currently to threaten the ferengi the way the founders where..hence why i stipulated tht

as to Hyperlanes the impression I got was the empire was..but very slowly finding new hyperlanes

Look, there has to be enough of a military threat from Imperial forces to even make this scenario worthwhile to discuss. If the Empire cannot even threaten Cardassia, which before it's alliance with the Dominion, was a third-rate power in the Alpha Quadrant, then no one will care and they Empire will wind up being forced back into it's own galaxy and with some rather eager for expansion enemies on their tail. Again, you haven't helped your cause here in noting that the Empire was slowly finding new routes. Even with the supposedly vast resources at their disposal, the Galactic Empire couldn't chart new routes quickly. Basically speaking the whole thing is over before anything is begun.

The Cardassian economy appears to be replicator based,

see I figured they had some form of replicator technology but seeing as they suffered a total economic collapse to the extent of food shortages from fighting essentially a border war with a pacified largely stagnant Federation..it makes me wonder to what extent

That is true to some extent, because Cardassia itself is apparently relatively resource poor. But that did not stop them from being able to expand into space and conquer many worlds, and it is that starvation and other problems that lead them to becoming militaristic in the first place, abandoning a spiritial and peaceful society in the process. Furthermore, this whole "Federation is stagnant and pacificed" bit is total nonsense. While the Federation did not have to worry about the Klingons and Romulans during this time, they still had to deal with the Cardassians, Tholians, and other minor powers.

Can you provide proof of a total economic collapse other than Picard's one statement in "Chain of Command" that the Cardassian people were left miserable and with depleted food supplies? That they sold some artifacts to pay for the war? Whom did they get this payment from? In what form?

If the Cardassians were so poorly off, then why were they able, along with the Dominion forces, even after being cut off from the Gamma Quadrant for support, able to carry out a massive war with not only the Federation, but the Klingon Empire, which includes building tens of thousands of ships of all sizes.
-Mike

[Mith]

The Dark lord of the sith finds a wormhole towards the edge of the inner colonies and after dispatching some probes learns of an entirely new Galaxy he begins to mobilize forces to begin invading the Galaxy and sends out Tarkin and ozzel (piet's there too) with a vanguard force to establish a beach head at the other side.

The Cardassians have just abandoned bajor and are in no condition to mount an offensive against the enemy..but hold up and fortify their territory..Imperial outposts are built at the edge of Cardassian space..( close to the Romulan border in that region)

The Romulans notice it and decide to fuck with both sides and begin raiding territory on both sides..the Federation refuses to get involved for now and the Klingons laugh at the Cardassians plight..so every major power is staying neutral

in five years the Empire launches a full scale invasion of Cardassian space the spoonheads have the same amount of time to build up

this takes place before the Rebellion and we'll say the Dominions late to the party because the borg decided to mess with them-The Romulans will get involved but more out of the intent of using what ever is left of the Cardassians as a vassal state to play cold war tactics with the Federation so..within say four years they will get involved in the War The Ferengi are nominal trade allies with the empire and the empire can hire marauders but they aren't allowed to buy tech

how do things go?

The Cardassians will crush anything the Empire would logically be able to throw at them. Their technology is decades ahead of the Empire. Their ships would crush Imperial counterparts, with only ISDs able to put up a small amount of resistance.

and you think purchasing starcharts would not really help at all in this situation? mind ye they aren't designed to document hyperlanes obviously but trek powers tend to be very thorough about documenting stellar anomalies

Which is next to useless in regards to anything but basic knowledge of gravity wells. If they can't find hyperlanes to begin with, then there's no reason to suggest those maps would help all that much because it's ST sensors.

All in all though, hyperlanes are going to be slow in development. I'm sure they'll find some areas relatively fast due to the lack of established hyperlanes, but the fact of the matter is that the Empire is going to need to build the roads before they can go to war. That gives the Cardassians an early edge and a massive one once they learn the secret and begin filling them with mines or orbital defense platforms.

But why would anyone sell the Empire anything like that? The topic OP more or less ignores canon in order to have the Ferengi sell the starcharts, but that's really a copout compared to the fact that the canon depiction of them in DS9 they did not sell out to the Dominion, though the remained carefully neutral with an eye towards possibly joining in with the Federation and it's alliance. Another thing to consider, if making new hyperlanes was easy as pie, why didn't the Galactic Republic do that during the Clone Wars, as they had most of the resources, very nearly identical technology to the Galactic Empire of just two decades later?

Starcharts aren't that big of a deal. Detailed starcharts are. They might get their hands on the former via a third party (like the Orion Syndicate--just wait for the Imperial Admirals to gloat about their new Orion Slaves...>:)) and use those to establish early hyperlanes.

But we're not talking about anything big in either case, as I've previously explained. And it gets worse once the Cardassians other powers discover hyperlanes and learn the technology. Even if the Empire does acquire warp drive, it's going to take an entire new fleet of ships to allow for them to make practical use of it--not to mention the power drain such a early warp core design would cost them. The costs in fuel would be enormous (ie, they use fusion as opposed to antimatter reactions).

On the other hand, hyperdrive seems to be easily done for long voyages on very little power in comparison to warp drive and we've seen that Starfleet can adapt their ships for different methods of FTL travel (Voyager--multiple times).

as to the hyperlane bit yeah a blockade definitely would be doable the question is can the Cardassian economy hold out

The Cardassian economy was stable as of DS9 and late TNG.

@Mike
The Cardassian economy appears to be replicator based, which means they should have little trouble producing sufficent mines, even if those mines cannot be cloaked like the ones the Klingons, Federation, and Romulans have canonically made use of for up to two centuries. The trick is to keep harassing and sabotaging the Empire's efforts at establishing an effective strategic, or even tactical hyperlane route. Without that, the Empire is stuck largely where they began, and are limited to controling a relatively small area of space only a few parsecs wide.
-Mike

I would suggest that Cardassian replicator technology is relatively new to them, otherwise the torturer in Chain of Command wouldn't have been starving as a child due to a lack of resources. It simply doesn't make any sense.

What I suggest is that the Cardassians suffered a depression of sorts, due to low amounts of resources, despite their advanced society. They then invaded nearby worlds for resources with Bajor as one of them. Not long after that, I think they somehow developed or obtained replicator technology. That replicator technology, as well as the new resources, helped returned strength back to the Cardassian Union.

[Admiral Breetai]

Look, there has to be enough of a military threat from Imperial forces to even make this scenario worthwhile to discuss. If the Empire cannot even threaten Cardassia, which before it's alliance with the Dominion, was a third-rate power in the Alpha Quadrant, then no one will care and they Empire will wind up being forced back into it's own galaxy and with some rather eager for expansion enemies on their tail.

I was so unimpressed by the Cardassians I have total faith in the empires ability to be a serious threat to them my point there was that I had my doubts that a species able to field ships that can one on one supposedly compete with Galaxies would likely not have trouble fighting off anything but a huge invasion

the only thing I wasn't too sure on was how long it'd take them to get they're FTl going

you haven't helped your cause here in noting that the Empire was slowly finding new routes. Even with the supposedly vast resources at their disposal, the Galactic Empire couldn't chart new routes quickly. Basically speaking the whole thing is over before anything is begun.

slow I suppose is relative slow in the sense that it seemed to take them years where as the old republic it took tens of thousands of years

do you think I should via OP fiat remove the slow charting issue out of the equation?

That is true to some extent, because Cardassia itself is apparently relatively resource poor. But that did not stop them from being able to expand into space and conquer many worlds, and it is that starvation and other problems that lead them to becoming militaristic in the first place, abandoning a spiritial and peaceful society in the process. Furthermore, this whole "Federation is stagnant and pacificed" bit is total nonsense. While the Federation did not have to worry about the Klingons and Romulans during this time, they still had to deal with the Cardassians, Tholians, and other minor powers.

most of those minor powers being too small to really threaten them or too primitive well aside from the Tholians any ways those guys seemed to consistently stay potent.

they ended up really breaking themselves against the Feds and as far as they're territory goes the impression I got from the episodes is them gobbling up resource poor unpopulated territories

Can you provide proof of a total economic collapse other than Picard's one statement in "Chain of Command" that the Cardassian people were left miserable and with depleted food supplies? That they sold some artifacts to pay for the war? Whom did they get this payment from? In what form?

Madreds own words on the matter him iirc backing up what Picard said and the fact that they needed Bajor pretty badly and didn't really seem to be in any condition what so ever to do much of anything until the Dominion showed up

If the Cardassians were so poorly off, then why were they able, along with the Dominion forces, even after being cut off from the Gamma Quadrant for support, able to carry out a massive war with not only the Federation, but the Klingon Empire, which includes building tens of thousands of ships of all sizes.
-Mike

The Dominion was such an industrial power they seemed to hand out large scale industrial replicators like candy..at one point seemingly able to essentially hand Bajor enough resources to cure all they're ills with out damaging their assets or ability to wage war in the least..in other instances only really loosing step when martok fragged one of the few major shipyards they had

The Cardassians got a major tech boost this was evidence in at least two episodes and the Dominion used them largely as means to an end..and the moment they got a hold of more potent allies pretty much considered them useful as canon fodder only..

likes I said economically speaking they are by they're own admission no less a huge POS..its one area the imperials may hold a dominant and legit advantage

The Cardassians will crush anything the Empire would logically be able to throw at them. Their technology is decades ahead of the Empire. Their ships would crush Imperial counterparts, with only ISDs able to put up a small amount of resistance.]

normally I agree with such assertions but the Cardassians? really?

The Cardassian economy was stable as of DS9 and late TNG.

from what I recall they where under a fuckton of pressure to abandon bajor and considered the idea of a war with the Feds really bad if they didn't manage a sneak attack and then when DS9 occured leaving bajor left them in such a state that the democratic factions where able to gain enough momentum that the events TDIC shattered the unions ability to hold power

seems unstable enough

The Cardassian economy appears to be replicator based, which means they should have little trouble producing sufficent mines, even if those mines cannot be cloaked like the ones the Klingons, Federation, and Romulans have canonically made use of for up to two centuries. The trick is to keep harassing and sabotaging the Empire's efforts at establishing an effective strategic, or even tactical hyperlane route. Without that, the Empire is stuck largely where they began, and are limited to controling a relatively small area of space only a few parsecs wide.
-Mike

there are different types of replicators theres the ENT era ones the re-sequencing (sp) protein and stuff and then there was the TOS type tech what ever they used while advanced still required them to transport grain and stuff so there seems to be..varying levels of replication tech

maybe the Cardassians had more ENT level technology in that regard which would explain why'd they'd still be at the mercy of planetary resources

I would suggest that Cardassian replicator technology is relatively new to them, otherwise the torturer in Chain of Command wouldn't have been starving as a child due to a lack of resources. It simply doesn't make any sense.

that's a possibility too

]

[Picard]

normally I agree with such assertions but the Cardassians? really?

We know that original cardassians are no match for Federation starships on one-for-one basis; however, with Federation photon torpedo being some 300 - 3 000 times stronger than HTL, even if we assume that Cardassian weapons are only 1/20th of that power (and we can't go any lower), their torpedoes should still be some 15 to 150 times stronger than Imperial HTL. So I would say that Cardassian Galor should still be able to take several ISD's and force a stalemate, if not destroy them.

[User1601]

normally I agree with such assertions but the Cardassians? really?

We know that original cardassians are no match for Federation starships on one-for-one basis; however, with Federation photon torpedo being some 300 - 3 000 times stronger than HTL, even if we assume that Cardassian weapons are only 1/20th of that power (and we can't go any lower), their torpedoes should still be some 15 to 150 times stronger than Imperial HTL. So I would say that Cardassian Galor should still be able to take several ISD's and force a stalemate, if not destroy them.

What about warp-combat? Obviously NO imperial ship is a match for a warp-driven one, since it renders a ship invulnerable-- ala the Orion ship in "Journey to Babel."
While the newer starships might be able to hit them, Imperial vessels certainly couldn't.

[Picard]

I don't remember seeing warp vs impulse combat in TNG.

[User1601]

I don't remember seeing warp vs impulse combat in TNG.

But we do see it in TOS, and therefore we must presume that improvements in technology simply rendered it impractical by the time of TNG.

However the Empire naturally wouldn't have that technology to even sense FTL ships, let along HIT them.

In "Journey to Babel," for example, the Enterprise can't hit an Orion ship because it's moving too fast at warp-- and normally the Enterprise could hit a warp-driven ship, just not one whose warp-core was configured for 100% power.

Likewise in TOS episode "The Ultimate Computer," the M-5 attacks at warp speed against ships that are moving at impulse.

However pesumably, this warp-strafing would no longer present an advantage by the time of TNG due to improvements in tracking and targeting; but this only shows how much MORE screwed that the Empire would be against them, since the Empire didn't have this technology-- they only have STL sensors and weapons.

So once the Cardies realized that the Empire only has STL sensors, and can maneuver at STL speeds only by primitive ion-thrusters, then they'd pretty much win at the touch of a button.

[Trinoya]

Or, since it's pure speculation on your end for why they don't warp strafe.. we could have pure speculation that the changes in warp drive (also the scale), the propulsion types utilized to create warp fields, and the technology made it not only impractical but dangerous... or that it always was dangerous to begin with and people just didn't realize it.

Or that there is treaty against it... or that maybe only the races that demonstrated the capability know about it...


Speculation is funny that way, it can be twisted to any means or ends. Simply put: For some reason the technology has ceased to be utilized, and rather than speculate on its 'reasons' for no longer being used, it's safer from a debate practice to presume it is still impractical.

Besides, clinging to warp strafing, in my eyes, has always been akin to clinging to the ICS... it's not required, nor needed, especially with confirmed tactics like the Picard Maneuver, which are not only witnesssed on screen but declared, 'required reading,' as well as have a clear and obvious reason for why they may or may not be utilized.

So to reiterate: Speculation is meaningless.

[User1601]

Or, since it's pure speculation on your end for why they don't warp strafe.. we could have pure speculation that the changes in warp drive (also the scale), the propulsion types utilized to create warp fields, and the technology made it not only impractical but dangerous... or that it always was dangerous to begin with and people just didn't realize it.

Speculation is funny that way, it can be twisted to any means or ends.

As you prove with every word, since you have absolutely no evidence. Meanwhile I've got precedent, i.e. they've done it before, and it would render the empire helpless.

As stated at st-v-sw.net:

In short, there is nothing to suggest that warp strafing is impossible, and the fact that we have actually seen it with both phasers and torpedoes (not to mention knowing it can occur with transporters!) is the nail in the coffin of the idea that it can't be done.

The maneuver is of limited utility against high-tech targets that are warp-impaired or fixed in place, since its defensive advantages for the warp-strafing attacker require extreme velocity. This compounds the problems of targeting difficulty and low attack intensity, rendering warp strafing a less attractive option in most 23rd and 24th Century battle contexts.

However, against less advanced targets or those without significant FTL sensor capability, warp strafing could easily serve as an almost magical "death from nowhere" attack method.

That's much better than equating informed speculation with uninformed.

[Trinoya]

I'd say my three tv shows to your one trumps you in the evidence category. They clearly no longer do it for some reason, you just presume the counter measure exists, I presume that it was deemed dangerous. You chose a reason based on jack shit, as did I.

Now then, don't act like your shit doesn't stink just as much as anyone elses little padawan.

[User1601]

I'd say my three tv shows to your one trumps you in the evidence category.

Except that you show NO evidence, only absence of it; and absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence.

They clearly no longer do it for some reason, you just presume the counter measure exists, I presume that it was deemed dangerous. You chose a reason based on jack shit, as did I.

No, I chose it based on precedent; and your only counter is that "you can't PROVE that Leprechauns didn't steal the technology." Sorry, you gotta do better than that.

Now then, don't act like your shit doesn't stink just as much as anyone elses little padawan

And you have toilet-training issues too... no surprise there.

[Praeothmin]

I'd say my three tv shows to your one trumps you in the evidence category. They clearly no longer do it for some reason, you just presume the counter measure exists, I presume that it was deemed dangerous. You chose a reason based on jack shit, as did I.

Now then, don't act like your shit doesn't stink just as much as anyone elses little padawan.

Trinoya, watch the language please.
You can easily reply without that kind of foulness.
Thank you.