I challenge darkstar to a debate

[Mike DiCenso]

The Trade Federation, a powerful sub faction of the Old Republic to be sure but not overpowering, built enough of a 3 KM across freighter to use them to blockade a planet. As well we have the two Death Stars which no matter how you slice it means that given enough start up time the Empire/Old Republic/New republic can slap together a lot of durasteel in a comparatively short time.

The Trade Federation numbers for blockading Naboo only range for a few tens of Lucrehulks, and no other support vessels beyond droid fighters. Contrast that with the insane numbers of Dominion ships (which includes a fair number of those 5 km ships) seen in DS9's "What You Leave Behind", and you can see that the TF falls way short of being a serious threat as seen here:





Note the ships that are a mass of little specks that go way off into the distance there. No Star Wars fleet to date in any of the movies, or the TCW even comes close to this scale. None.
-Mike

[mojo]

those look like stars to me, champ.

consider this:


also, this may be irrelevant, but lucky just made a pretty convincing argument against ds9 being useful as apparently what's onscreen fails to match what's in script or EVEN WhAT THE ACTORS ARE DESCRIBING AS HAPPENING IN FRONT OF THEM.

[Lucky]

For the Empire/Old Republic/New Republic we know they had the industry to field over twenty thousand warships with lenghts ranging from 900 meters to 1600 likely on average as well as larger specimens in addition to smaller but argubly more numerous assault ships. We know that the Mon Calamari shipyard more or less on their own could spam enough 1200 meter warships plus support that the Empire with its tens of thousands of warships couldn't scrounge up enough of a task force from its dispersed frontier to overpower the aformentioned shipyard even through they were a crucial link in the Rebel's arsenal. The Trade Federation, a powerful subfaction of the Old Republic to be sure but not overpowering, built enough of a 3 KM across frieghter to use them to blockaid a planet. As well we have the two Death Stars which no matter how you slice it means that given enough start up time the Empire/Old Republic/New republic can slap togather a lot of durasteel in a comparativly short time.

So in conclusion while I would agree replicators are a quantum leap forward in industry I think the scale of the million world Empire pushes it out into the lead just not nearly as much as some proponets claim.

The Rebel fleet we see at Endor was pretty much all the ships the Rebels had wasn't it?

It only takes one Trade Fed donut to blockade a planet. As I recall what we see at Naboo was actually hurting the TF's bottom line?

I thought after seeing the prequels that the Death Stars were made mostly from recycled CIS equipment.

Star Wars problem has always been man power for some reason.

[mojo]

replicator flaws Mojo

certain materials cannot be replicated due to the complexity of their atomic structure or something..hence why currency isn't entirely obliterated Latinum can't be neither can Dilithium those can be regenerated and refreshed to an extent but not replicated

protomatter seemed impossible to replicate until DS9 and anti matter seemed to be very difficult to replicate which is why Photon torps couldn't be ship based produced until Ds9 era again

as for building ships from scratch a primitive version of the replicators the modern feds used was seen powered by coma people in ENT it was literally pulling hull sections out of thin air and slapping them on the little E

Replicators do seem entirely capable of just 'materializing" entire sections of ships..i mean a few crew men..on Voyager built the delta flyer with out any assembly line or anything and on a sparse "budget" no less

energy requirements and certain raw materials being too complex or costly seem to be the only in universe limitations to replicators

that does not mean major powers can't churn out obscene numbers,..The Dominion is an extremely broken example having only three shipyards for most of the war then two..and still being able to out produce the klingons and feds combined

the UFP itself can lazily take a decade to build a single GCS then start rolling them out by the dozens during the war

it seems possible to do what your suggesting but basically they are capped by complexity and energy requirements

i don't buy the complexity argument. the things are good enough to use to fix broken pieces of people by just replicating an earlier version with the current mind. i do of course now remember that there is a problem with replicating certain materials, but i don't know that that would be an issue here. are these materials used much in the creation of starships? because if they are, that's pretty stupid. surely there are other options that would allow giant-ass replicators to make them.
and because i honestly don't know it, what's the deal with power consumption? i've watched a decent amount of tng, but i never pay that much attention to that sort of thing. for all i can remember, it's always been like power is not much of a problem with the whole antimatter thing or whatever. and couldn't alternate power supplies be used? i mean, just go right down to basics. hundreds of years from now, couldn't they at least leech off a star or something? if you're going to use the mass of dead planets as material with which to create starships with a giant replicator, why not just tap the planets' star for the power to do so? probably there's some really obvious answer i just don't know.

[mojo]

also, haha! did you notice how it seemed like i was asking mike to consider shitting his fucking pants, like, that he should consider shitting his own pants? because i was only pasting that pic because i thought it was funny, so that's great how that worked out.

[mojo]

For the Empire/Old Republic/New Republic we know they had the industry to field over twenty thousand warships with lenghts ranging from 900 meters to 1600 likely on average as well as larger specimens in addition to smaller but argubly more numerous assault ships. We know that the Mon Calamari shipyard more or less on their own could spam enough 1200 meter warships plus support that the Empire with its tens of thousands of warships couldn't scrounge up enough of a task force from its dispersed frontier to overpower the aformentioned shipyard even through they were a crucial link in the Rebel's arsenal. The Trade Federation, a powerful subfaction of the Old Republic to be sure but not overpowering, built enough of a 3 KM across frieghter to use them to blockaid a planet. As well we have the two Death Stars which no matter how you slice it means that given enough start up time the Empire/Old Republic/New republic can slap togather a lot of durasteel in a comparativly short time.

So in conclusion while I would agree replicators are a quantum leap forward in industry I think the scale of the million world Empire pushes it out into the lead just not nearly as much as some proponets claim.

The Rebel fleet we see at Endor was pretty much all the ships the Rebels had wasn't it?

It only takes one Trade Fed donut to blockade a planet. As I recall what we see at Naboo was actually hurting the TF's bottom line?

I thought after seeing the prequels that the Death Stars were made mostly from recycled CIS equipment.

Star Wars problem has always been man power for some reason.

this was a rare missed licensing opportunity for lucas!
Trade Federation Donuts. Available in Jedi Vanilla Powdered and Sith Chocolate Frosted. Coming Soon: Bindo Grey!

[Mike DiCenso]

those look like stars to me, champ.

No, they're not all stars. The stars are white specks, while the ships are greyish, and the ships are all clumped very close together around the limb of the planet. A little bit better view in this pic:



Look especially closely at the middle of the planet. Lots of little greyish-toned clumps. that are clearly in front of the planet.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

also, this may be irrelevant, but lucky just made a pretty convincing argument against ds9 being useful as apparently what's onscreen fails to match what's in script or EVEN WhAT THE ACTORS ARE DESCRIBING AS HAPPENING IN FRONT OF THEM.

Really? One could make that claim about all of the Star Trek series. Without a proper accounting, that's a dubious claim at best.
-Mike

[mojo]

also, this may be irrelevant, but lucky just made a pretty convincing argument against ds9 being useful as apparently what's onscreen fails to match what's in script or EVEN WhAT THE ACTORS ARE DESCRIBING AS HAPPENING IN FRONT OF THEM.

Really? One could make that claim about all of the Star Trek series. Without a proper accounting, that's a dubious claim at best.
-Mike

mike, did you just accidentally claim that no star trek footage is valid as evidence?

also, i think lucky's fourteen page post is probably a 'proper accounting'.

[mojo]

those look like stars to me, champ.

No, they're not all stars. The stars are white specks, while the ships are greyish, and the ships are all clumped very close together around the limb of the planet. A little bit better view in this pic:



Look especially closely at the middle of the planet. Lots of little greyish-toned clumps. that are clearly in front of the planet.
-Mike

right in the middle there? i see about 7.

[Admiral Breetai]

i don't buy the complexity argument. the things are good enough to use to fix broken pieces of people by just replicating an earlier version with the current mind. i do of course now remember that there is a problem with replicating certain materials, but i don't know that that would be an issue here. are these materials used much in the creation of starships? because if they are, that's pretty stupid. surely there are other options that would allow giant-ass replicators to make them.

as far as I know the materials traditionally difficult to replicate are used in commerce with other foreign bodies and can be traded for and the like (latinum and Anti-Matter) and that's about it

Ablative armor seems really hard to replicate too but not so much complex as it retardedly expensive apparently (you can build a starships worth of regular armor for a section of ablative)

and because i honestly don't know it, what's the deal with power consumption? i've watched a decent amount of tng, but i never pay that much attention to that sort of thing. for all i can remember, it's always been like power is not much of a problem with the whole antimatter thing or whatever. and couldn't alternate power supplies be used? i mean, just go right down to basics. hundreds of years from now, couldn't they at least leech off a star or something? if you're going to use the mass of dead planets as material with which to create starships with a giant replicator, why not just tap the planets' star for the power to do so? probably there's some really obvious answer i just don't know.

the Romulans have artificial blackholes tiny ones..the Dominion tapped the power of stars the Feds and Klingons like using anti matter - one could argue the one weakness in their economy is power consumption energy is the new dollar basically and how much energy is needed to build something and so on. I don't know why Romulans have this problem theoretically singularities should give them everything they need maybe if they stress it too much it'll explode or something the Dominion did not seem to have this problem..neither did the Voth The Borg did though ironically enough at least in Voyager

[Mike DiCenso]

those look like stars to me, champ.

No, they're not all stars. The stars are white specks, while the ships are greyish, and the ships are all clumped very close together around the limb of the planet. A little bit better view in this pic:



Look especially closely at the middle of the planet. Lots of little greyish-toned clumps. that are clearly in front of the planet.
-Mike

right in the middle there? i see about 7.

Seven what? Groups of ships or individual ships? There's a big mass of ships, that if you enlarge the image quickly resolves into several clumps of starships, which have over a dozen individual ships visible in them.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

the Romulans have artificial blackholes tiny ones..the Dominion tapped the power of stars the Feds and Klingons like using anti matter - one could argue the one weakness in their economy is power consumption energy is the new dollar basically and how much energy is needed to build something and so on. I don't know why Romulans have this problem theoretically singularities should give them everything they need maybe if they stress it too much it'll explode or something the Dominion did not seem to have this problem..neither did the Voth The Borg did though ironically enough at least in Voyager

Power does not seem to be a problem. In fact, it's extraordinarily rare outside of some form of sabotage or combat damage that power is ever an issue with anyone in the ST-verse. Even Earth of the 22nd century did not seem lacking for power as a resource it is so abundant.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

Power does not seem to be a problem. In fact, it's extraordinarily rare outside of some form of sabotage or combat damage that power is ever an issue with anyone in the ST-verse. Even Earth of the 22nd century did not seem lacking for power as a resource it is so abundant.
-Mike

I mean when it comes to replication there seems to be a power/resource trade off that makes certain items very "expensive"

[sonofccn]

Admiral Breetai,Mike DiCenso I see your responses and merely ask you indulge my tardiness a little bit longer. I will not be able to properly respond for the next few days, please forgive and I will try to respond as soon as I am able. Again sorry for any inconvience.