The Navigational Deflector in Debates

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:57 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:The real issue is that the nav deflector, unlike the combat shields, is not all around in it's coverage. So theoretically, moving off to the side of a Trek ship, you can attack it with lasers or kinetic objects since there's no nav deflector beam there. When the Borg attacks with it's cutting beam, it does so from a very high angle of attack or 45-90 degrees to one side:

"Q who?"

"Q Who?"

"Best of Both Worlds"

How do we know the nav deflector doesn't cover that high an area? Simple, the rare times the beam is visible, it is a relatively narrow beam as seen in TOS and TNG:

"The Paradise Syndrome"

"Best of Both Worlds, Part 2"

So this is not as cut and dried as people believe it is. That's why Trek ships bother to even have combat shields at all, otherwise you would only need the deflector.
-Mike

Thank you for providing evidence that the Borg LASER wasn't just a LASER. It seems to include some sort of tractor beam and force field.

The navigational deflector has to be omnidirectional under normal circumstances. Kirk ordered reverse at warp, Sisko ordered reverse while fighting the Borg, and during the Year of Hell Voyager needed to fix its broken navi-deflector to survive a micro-asteroid storm that seemed to be come from the side.

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:03 pm

Praeothmin wrote:This argument is the same one we had with KirkSkywalker a year or so ago, where he too ascribed to the "Da Shieldzzz are the Uber shitzz, and have gravity and can push everything away"...
Except that people did bring up all the asteroids and physical objects striking a ship while the deflector and shields were active (which was ignored, of course, without explanation)...
And the Outrageous Okona is a no limits fallacy...
They were threatened by lasers from a lower technology-based culture, so the logical explanation in this case is that the laser's power wasn't sufficient to overcome the shields, not that "HURRR, NO LAZARZZZ KIN TOUCH USSSSS"...

Or we could go with the evidence, and conclude the LASER the borg used was not just a LASER, and that the Borg had disabled all the E-D's defenses like is stated and shown?

No one is arguing for no limits. That is just a strawman put up by trolls.

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:08 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Given the evidence provided, I don't really know since the nav deflector is seldom a factor in combat. Have we ever seen anyone actually directly fire at it with anything?
-Mike

The navigational deflector shields are a basic technology you need in order to use a warp drive. Everyone knows the basics as to how it works, and how to bypass it. The one time we see a group who does not have weapons to bypass the NDS they are literally luaghed at, and treated as delusional.

sonofccn · Post by **sonofccn** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:15 pm

@Mike DiCenso

Not to seem impertinent sir but if I may, Whom Gods Destroy {TOS-3} does show the Federation posses the ability to generate a relatively large and envoloping shield from a central point. Could not this apply to the deflector dish as well? As well sir, begging my misunderstanding of your point, doesn't your theroy leave much of the ship open to impact and defeat the purpose of the device? If I misunderstanding your point I of course apologize.

Mike DiCenso · Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:38 pm

Yes, the WGD episode shows that, but it also shows that a single-point shield weakens considerably the further you get from the source point as well. The only reason the E-1701 did not blast through it is because the effort of doing a fully dedicated attack would have killed everyone in the asylum.

As to your other point, no it does not. Simply because the navigational deflector need only point in one direction when the ship is underway.... the direction it is traveling at any one time. And if you look at the TOS "The Paradise Syndrome" image I provided, that asteroid is supposed to be nearly as big as the Earth's own Moon. So what you see is the deflector beam, visible because it is on full power, subtending a fairly large fraction of the asteroid's diameter. That means, given the perspective we are seeing it at, the deflector beam expands out conically the further out it gets, like any beam does, and thus it makes a hole or tunneling effect through the gas and dust in interstellar space for the ship to travel through.
-Mike

sonofccn · Post by **sonofccn** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:08 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:And if you look at the TOS "The Paradise Syndrome" image I provided, that asteroid is supposed to be nearly as big as the Earth's own Moon. So what you see is the deflector beam, visible because it is on full power, subtending a fairly large fraction of the asteroid's diameter. That means, given the perspective we are seeing it at, the deflector beam expands out conically the further out it gets, like any beam does, and thus it makes a hole or tunneling effect through the gas and dust in interstellar space for the ship to travel through.

Then I respectfully withdraw the question sir.

Mike DiCenso wrote:Yes, the WGD episode shows that, but it also shows that a single-point shield weakens considerably the further you get from the source point as well. The only reason the E-1701 did not blast through it is because the effort of doing a fully dedicated attack would have killed everyone in the asylum.

With respect sir, concern may have prohibited them from trying further but we don't know if they would have suceeded had they done so. At the very least the shield at its weakest point could withstand the forward phasers which should be more than should be expected of mere Navigational Deflectors. Further the distances should be comparatively shorter for the deflector dish than the Asylum example helping to nullify some of the projection issue.

Mike DiCenso · Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:38 pm

sonofcnn wrote:With respect sir, concern may have prohibited them from trying further but we don't know if they would have suceeded had they done so. At the very least the shield at its weakest point could withstand the forward phasers which should be more than should be expected of mere Navigational Deflectors. Further the distances should be comparatively shorter for the deflector dish than the Asylum example helping to nullify some of the projection issue.

We've gone over this before in other threads. It is stated unequivocally several times by characters with expertise to know, and everything they did was based around that. And they talked about this in context that even attempting a full power attack on the far side of the planet would still kill everyone within the asylum dome. As for the range, the deflector in TOS' TPS episode show it hitting the asteroid from tens of thousands of km away. Hardly short-ranged at all, and again it was a beam, not a barrier.

I would also point out that a deflector beam is not the same thing as a shield since it has been stated many times since TOS as "shields and deflectors" as separate things. The existence on the NX-01 in the days of Earth starships not having force fields and shields is testament to that fact. It's a force beam, not a shield barrier.
-Mike

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:21 pm

sonofccn wrote: I have demostrated multiple examples of corporeal matter striking a starship and either damaging it or being a threat to damage.

You provided quotes that in no way counter anything in the OP.

Your evidence consisted of three quotes.

TNG:Genesis wrote: Bridge

PICARD 2: Helm take us in to twenty million kilometres.

WESLEY: Aye, sir.

RIKER: Mister Worf, divert enough power to the shields to offset the increased radiation and magnetic fields.

DATA: Sir, at twenty million kilometres, our shields will only be effective for eighteen minutes.

PICARD 2: Noted, Mister Data.

RIKER: Captain, may I have a word with you?

PICARD 2: You have the Bridge, Mister Data.

DATA: Aye, sir.

Allegiance wrote: RIKER: Mister Worf, divert enough power to the shields to offset the increased radiation and magnetic fields.

DATA: Sir, at twenty million kilometres, our shields will only be effective for eighteen minutes.

Relics wrote: [Bridge]

DATA: The sphere appears to be abandoned. Sensors show that the star is extremely unstable. It is experiencing severe bursts of radiation and matter expulsions.

PICARD: Then that would explain why they abandoned it. But if there's no one still living there, how were we brought inside?

DATA: I believe we triggered a series of automatic piloting beams designed to guide ships into the sphere.

WORF: Sir, Sensors show a large magnetic disturbance on the star's surface.

DATA: It is a solar flare, Captain. Magnitude twelve, class B.

PICARD: Shields?

WORF: Shields are up, but only at twenty three percent.

DATA: The star has entered a period of increased activity. Sensors indicate that the solar flares will continue to grow. In three hours, our shields will no longer be sufficient to protect us, sir.

I see no claim that radiation is not a threat. I see a claim that certain types of radiation are not a threat. Your evidence is therefor useless because it only shows characters talking in generalities. Given the vast number of types of radiation spit out by normal pulsar and stars it is unreasonable to expect the characters to pointlessly list the threatening forms of radiation.

It doesn't help that the Pulsar in question should have been a black hole, and there is no such thing as a Magnitude 12, Class B solar flare in the real world.

sonofccn wrote: Conversely you have not provided to my knowledge a single direct example of a navigational deflector protecting the ship in the manner you describe.

Broken Bow wrote: TUCKER: Beautiful. Lock it off right there. (wipes a fingerprint off the warp console)  
REED: I believe you missed a spot. Commander Tucker, Ensign Travis Mayweather. He just arrived.  
TUCKER: Our space boomer.  
TRAVIS: How fast have you gotten her?  
TUCKER: Warp four. We'll be going to four five as soon as we clear Jupiter. Think you can handle it?  
TRAVIS: Four point five.  
REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist.  
TUCKER: Keep your shirt on, Lieutenant. Your equipment'll be here in the morning.

Scorpion wrote: KIM: It looks like the Borg have accessed deflector control. They're trying to realign the emitters. 
CHAKOTAY: Shut them out. 
KIM: They've bypassed security protocols. 
TORRES: We're emitting a resonant gravitation beam. It's creating another singularity. 
CHAKOTAY: Reverse course. 
PARIS: We're fighting intense gravimetric distortion. I can't break free!

Cost of Living wrote: DATA: Sir, the core is composed of nitrium and chrondite. It is unlikely another photon torpedo will be of any effect.  
PICARD: Mister Worf, prepare a tractor beam.  
WORF: Aye, sir.  
DATA: Thirty seconds to impact.  
WORF: Captain, I am unable to get a positive lock with the tractor beam. There is magnetic field interference emanating from the core materials.  
PICARD: Activate a deflector dish. If we project a particle beam, we may be able to produce a disruptive nuclear effect within the core.  
WORF: Aye, sir.  
DATA: Impact in seventeen seconds.  
WORF: Particle beam activated. The target has been destroyed, Captain.  
DATA: The remaining debris is of no threat to the planet, sir.

[quote=" "TNG: The Outrageous Okona" "] DATA: Sensors show it to be an interplanetary vessel, sir. Class seven, crew complement twenty six.  
WORF: Still no response. Captain, they are now locking lasers on us.  
RIKER: Lasers?  
WORF: Yes, sir.  
PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?  
RIKER; Regulations so call for a Yellow Alert.  
PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well.  
RIKER: May I ask why, sir?  
PICARD: In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One. [/quote]

Q Who wrote: (The tractor beam is green)  
PICARD: Report, Lieutenant.  
WORF: The beam is draining our shields. 
RIKER: If they pull down our shields, we're helpless. 
PICARD: Warp eight, any heading. Engage. 
WESLEY: Captain, the beam is holding us here. 
RIKER: Increase power! 
WORF: Shields weakening. 
DATA: Shields will be down in eighteen seconds. 
PICARD: Locate the exact source of the tractor beam. Lock on phasers. 
WORF: Phasers locked on target. 
PICARD: Fire. 
WORF: They still have us. 
DATA: Shields are down, sir. 
(A circular cut is made in the hull, and a section of several decks is pulled out)  
WORF: A type of laser beam is slicing into the saucer section. 
RIKER: Carving us up like a roast. 
PICARD: With whatever force necessary, terminate that beam. Fire when ready.  
(They blast a big hole through an edge of the cube)  
PICARD: Again, Mister Worf.  
(Two more holes are blown in the scaffolding)  
DATA: Tractor beam is released, sir. Force field is maintaining our hull integrity.  
RIKER: Damage report?  
WORF: Coming in, sir. Sections twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine on decks four, five and six destroyed. 
PICARD: Casualties?  
WORF: Eighteen were in those sections and are missing. 
PICARD: What is the condition of the alien ship? 
WORF: They have sustained damage to twenty percent of their vessel. Life support minimal. 
PICARD: Conference.

As per the job of the Navigational Deflector Shield is to clear a path for the ship when it travels at high speeds, and is so effective the Borg had to drain the shields before they could use its notlaser to cut into the Enterprise-D.

sonofccn wrote: No effortless shruging off asteriods or particles indefinatly which you ascribe the navigational deflector.

You engaged in cherry picking and a straw man so drastic your argument has relationship to anything I stated.

sonofccn wrote: I do not forget "the Outrageous Okona" conspiciously or otherwise. Strictly speaking even if I were to assume wholly and without reservation that based off of that no laser could ever pierce the navigational deflector that would not mandate it must stop all light or all of the EM spectrum but merely render Lasers ineffective. A dispersal effect would suffice. Further since said quote is part of a casual conversation rather than a technical briefing or example of the effect in action to fully understand the context of it we would need to look at the wider Verse in question.

Additionaly your basic argument offered appears to be operating under a faulty assumption. Namely if you can prove a difference in interaction I am therefore wrong. However I, in essence, argue shields are akin to physical constructs which can and are battered down by physical interaction. A human body is a physical construct which can and is battered down by physical interactions as well. However the same force applied to a bullet composed of absobent spongy matter will not have precisely the same result as one composed out of lead but one would hardly argue the force of energy was immaterial and humans merely have a special weakness to lead.

Your attitude needs a lot of work. You argue from ignorance, but assume you can't be wrong. You should take a more polite tone.

Gravity effects all forms of Electromagnetic radiation equally. As I showed with the quote from Scorpion the Navigational Deflector Shield is a gravity generating and manipulation device. Just so you don't get the delusional idea that gravity shields are a Voyager only thing, here is a screen cap from Star Trek Generations.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1283.jpg

sonofccn wrote: The fact that Polarons bypassed shields rather than battering them down would point in my favor. A clear cut example of encountering something the shield's had a weakness to.

No one claimed Star Trek shields were equally effective against all things. This is a straw man you created.

sonofccn wrote: If we are talking about the gravitonal pull of a black hole beyond its event horizon you are correct. If you have evidence of a comparable state regarding the Navigational deflector you may invoke such. However the quote in question does not state that and assuming no EM radiation or indeed no laser could ever pierce the navigational deflectors would indeed be a "no limits fallacy".

We are talking about a device that can be used to create worm holes. We are talking about a device that is stated to make the ship immune to all LASER.

You don't seem to understand that gravity bends the path Electromagnetic Radiation takes no matter how strong the gravitational pull is. All the Navigational Deflector Shields need to do is cause something called gravitational lensing.

sonofccn wrote: For my purposes it is unimportant what wattage is being outputted in the examples. Merely that it is pummeling down the shield.

This is what is known as a straw man to put it politely.

For your purposes (assuming you are not just being a censor) you need to show that things like Electromagnetic Radiation is an effective method to bring down Star Trek (specifically Federation shields). Given the Borg felt the need to drain the shields before using a notLASER you have quite the up hill battle.

sonofccn wrote: Its only unusual property is that it, the asteriod belt, is abnormally dense. If these were special, magic asteriods Data would have pointed such out. Since he did not any claims of such, without evidence, can be dismissed.

Actually the Enterprise-D was shown to be in the densest part. The area Data and Picard went to was actually seemingly empty as I proved above. Booby Trap and Year of Hell were far worse as you know.

sonofccn wrote:Since I did not argue the Enterprise couldn't enter any asteriod field at all merely that in the quote I provided they couldn't because of the dangers involved. If at any point in Boobytrap they state a collision with an asteriod is immaterial due to them being impervious to corporeal matter you may of course provide that in support of your argument. Otherwise in and of itself that the Enterprise could enter an asteriod field does not disprove my argument.

You could attempt to argue a descrepency due to similar visuals but that is going to be messy affair, doubly so since you normally disregard visuals, with us posting different screenshots at different vantages to try and prove our argument.

Such as this from Boobytrap compared to this from Genesis showing the latter is the denser field.

Given Picard didn't actually agree with Data, and is not a reckless drooling moron, and Data can be wrong, I see no reason to assume Data was correct. That leaves the visuals to decide which person was right.

If the asteroids were so tiny in Genesis as you claim then we can safely conclude Picard was correct. Moving smaller objects is easier then larger ones, and a barely working Voyager could handle worse. Every time a ship has trouble with asteroids the asteroids are a sizable fraction of the ship's volume from what i recall.

sonofccn wrote: In every event the planet succefully stopped the ship. Said planet was not unduly harmed while the ships usually were the worse for wear. Further as far as I am aware, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, on those crashes which we are witness to the velocity is relatively pedestrian. Now that they survived relatively intact, and in atleast one case managed to be fixed enough to leave, is impressive from a real world viewpoint but it is not super-impervious to the material universe impressive you are advocating.

As far as I can tell we have no evidence the planets stopped the ships. We know the Deltaflyer was trying to land, and that means it was trying to stop itself.

Both ships were damaged before they hit the planets. The damage the ships got before the crashes was the reason for the crashes.

Judging a Star Trek ship's speed with the human eye is not possible. This is made very bluntly obvious with the Phoenix in Star Trek: First Contact. It seems to be an odd quirk of the propulsion systems. It went from about 20,000 kilometers a second to about 300,000 kilometers a second in about five minutes before going to warp.

Not damaging the planets just shows how efficient the Navigational Deflector Shields are.

sonofccn wrote: The fact that Earth's atmosphere didn't combust points to tomfoolery of physics as we understand them. As for Chain of Command since we still do not understand how vessels accelerate to such speeds the assumption that they do it via brute force real world physics is just that. An Assumption. Or in other words a speculative theroy which must be tested against known facts.

First that is you assuming that Star Trek starship shields are walls that absorb the impact rather then the described things that deflect things away from the ship. My understanding is that if you shape things properly you can do some amazing things like not create sonic booms while moving at super-sonic speeds in air. Sure it isn't anywhere near that level in the real world, but we are getting to a point were we might be able to have super-sonic flight without a notable sonic-boom.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Spike

We know for a fact the Navigational Deflector Shields engage in high level gravitational generation and manipulation.

The Navigational Deflector can generate a Nuclear Disruption Effect particle beam. That makes the navigational deflector shields only thing to have NDF as a canon aspect of its function.

sonofccn wrote: If you choose to take it as such. I was merely trying to save time and effort.

You posted an irrelevant peace of information as if I and the others at this site don't know what radiation is, or are unable to do our own research if need be. Yes, your post an insult to the education and intelligence everyone on the board.

Radiation is a general name from a large number vastly different things with drastically different properties making your quotes useless to anything but a straw man with no basis in the reality of this thread. No one claimed Star Trek defenses were equally effective against all things.

sonofccn wrote: I provided the link, that is the definiition of "radiation" as I have been able to ascertain. If you have another one you may cite it.

You proved a quote with no relevance to what anyone said in the thread. No one has claimed that any defenses on a starship in Star Trek will protect equally against everything.

sonofccn wrote: If it is the example I think it is the quote says lasers not EM radiation. If there are others I welcome their admission.

It is a matter of basic physics, logic, and evidence from the series.

All Laser are Electromagnetic Radiation.

All Electromagnetic Radiation is made of Photons.

All Photons travel at the same speed in a given medium

All Photons will change direction do to gravity's pull (anti-gravity's push).

Navigational Deflector Shields and combat shields on Federation starship use gravity to deflect(not absorb) dangerous things.
Voyager: Scorpion, Star Trek: Generations.

The gravitational fields Navigational Deflector Shields generate are so powerful they can create quantum singularities(blacks holes and worm holes).
Voyager: Scorpion

Turning on the shields will make the ship invisible to radar, and is implied to hide the ship from the naked eye.
Voy:Future's End TOS: Tomorrow is Yesterday TNG: First Contact

LASER can not get through the Navigational Deflector Shields.
TNG: Q Who TNG: The Outrageous Okona

Therefor all Electromagnetic Radiation can be deflected away from the starship before the Electromagnetic Radiation can reach the starship do to gravity manipulation.

sonofccn wrote:No solar flares and pulsars are real, physical things. Reasonable estimate can be made. That writers botched the real world science should not be ignored but neither does it make all that happen vanish into thin air.

You honestly don't understand what I'm talking about? You didn't do basic research on the quotes you used? You can not make reasonable estimates from things that don't/should not exist.

The pulsar in Allegiance was 4.356 solar masses, and the maximum mass for a neutron star is about 3 to 3.2 solar masses. You do see the problem right?
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_a ... 0607a.html

There is no such thing as a Magnitude 12, Class B solar Flare in the real world.

sonofccn wrote: Within the RL Verse yes. Within how they interact with a fictional device not so much.

sonofccn wrote: So you are in agreement you don't know how a Polaron based weapon actually does its thing. Do not understand the scientific rational why it works which can be used to objectively rate and quantify how another society may achieve similar results. All you have is Magic A and that can't be debated.

While it is nice to have an explanation that makes sense is nice, I don't need to know why something happens in a fictional setting to know it does. It isn't like starship shields in Star Trek are only one thing.

I'm sure if we came up with a list of things that are good for getting through starship shields we would start to see a pattern. I already found one.

sonofccn wrote: Except it descends into arguing if Magic B can touch Magic A, think of how the Death Note/Doctor Strange debate went, with nothing being accomplished. In many ways its a parrellel to rather than a devation of arguing firepower. Has the same effect of stifling actual debate and railroading disccussions into predictable paths. I don't consider that particuarly fun.

That is the interesting part. Both sides have to actually try to prove their case, and show that they know their setting, and seeing people think outside the box is fun. Keep in mind nothing get accomplished no matter what.

sonofccn wrote: Now then Lucky. You have made multiple insuinuations in this post and previously that I have acted in a dishonorable manner in our debates. If you feel the matter strongly enough I welcome you to bring it to the Mods and will accept whatever judgment they deem. However I do ask you to please refrain from reciting such allegations within your posts. They needlessly clutter up and expand your posts and are not conductive to polite, reasoned debate. Thank you.

You've cherry picked, but that isn't that big a deal given how rarely asteroids are problem without being notably magic in Star Trek. Still you picked the lowest showing, and even in the quote you provided the characters are not in agreement on the topic, and in the episode Data seems to have been wrong.

Your straw man about radiation is so detached from what I have said in this thread or any other I don't know who you are talking to. You claim victory over a claim no one has made.

This is what I said:

Lucky wrote: Its design requirements need it to be a perfect defense against anything the ship is likely to find in its way, meteors, photons, electrons, protons... It seems like such a technology would render a wide range of weapons completely useless.

Your radiation straw man in no way counters anything in this part. You either don't understand what is being stated or don't care. I worry if you don't understand.

Your lack of knowledge about the Solar Flare and Pulsar in your quotes shows you don't bother to understand what is being stated in and what is going on. This shows you to be lazy given that a few minutes with Goggle would explain everything you need to know about why those things are magic.

Your understanding of the interaction between Electromagnetic Radiation and Gravity seems disturbingly poor. You don't understand simple things like gravitational lensing for crying out loud.

To make matters worse you seem to only be lazy, undereducated, and have poor reading comprehension when dealing with me.

Lucky · Post by **Lucky** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:36 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
We've gone over this before in other threads. It is stated unequivocally several times by characters with expertise to know, and everything they did was based around that. And they talked about this in context that even attempting a full power attack on the far side of the planet would still kill everyone within the asylum dome. As for the range, the deflector in TOS' TPS episode show it hitting the asteroid from tens of thousands of km away. Hardly short-ranged at all, and again it was a beam, not a barrier.

I would also point out that a deflector beam is not the same thing as a shield since it has been stated many times since TOS as "shields and deflectors" as separate things. The existence on the NX-01 in the days of Earth shields not having force fields is testament to that fact. It's a force beam, not a shield barrier.
-Mike

Broken Bow wrote: REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist.  TUCKER: Keep your shirt on, Lieutenant. Your equipment'll be here in the morning.

TOS: Balance Of Terror wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wOqeVGv-n4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYWl-b6AdjM

You'll notice the Enterprise travels backwards at warp.

Voyager: Year of Hell Part 1 wrote: Day 180
[Bridge]
JANEWAY: Engines.  TORRES: I'm doing my best.  KIM: Captain, with the deflector down those micro-meteoroids are beginning to erode the hull.  JANEWAY: Emergency power to the deflector.  TUVOK: None available.  JANEWAY: I'll be in Deflector control.  TUVOK: Captain. That entire section has been designated hazard level four.  JANEWAY: I know.
[Outside Deflector Control]
JANEWAY: Oh, why do I get the feeling you're testing me, Voyager? Bridge, there's a fire in Deflector control. Any luck with the engines?
[Bridge]
TORRES: The warp core's still offline.  KIM: Micro-meteoroid density
[Outside Deflector Control]
KIM [OC]: is increasing. The nacelle pylon is buckling.  JANEWAY: Bridge, I'm going in. Stand by to engage the Deflector. Tell the Doctor I'll be coming back with severe burns.

DS9: Emissary wrote: [Saratoga - Bridge]

LOCUTUS [on viewscreen]: Resistance is futile. You will disarm your weapons and escort us to sector zero zero one. If you attempt to intervene, we will destroy you.  
CAPTAIN: (a Vulcan) Red alert. Load all torpedo bays. Ready phasers. Move us to position alpha, Ensign.  
(The space battle begins)  
OPS OFFICER: (woman) They've locked on.  
SISKO: Reroute auxiliary power.  
OPS OFFICER: Our shields are being drained. Sixty four percent. Forty two.  
CAPTAIN: Recalibrate shield nutation.  
TACTICAL: (Bolian) Modulation is having no effect.  
OPS OFFICER: Shields have failed.  
SISKO: Full reverse.  
CAPTAIN: Maintain all Argh!  
(Everything goes BOOM)  
SISKO: Damage report. Damage report!  
COMPUTER: Warning. Damage to warp core. Containment failure in five minutes.  
TACTICAL: Direct hit decks one through four.  
SISKO: Let's get the civilians to the escape pods, Lieutenant.  
TACTICAL: Aye, sir.

Jasonb · Post by **Jasonb** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:24 pm

It real depend starship. The USS Voyager get 80% speed of light able defector very great deal stop power. Fact even smell piece dust having power nuclear bombing going that speed. Galaxy class main defector dish someone else might figer out the amount stop power by watch this video from 3 minute 31 secounds to 3 minute and 40 secounds.

sonofccn · Post by **sonofccn** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:57 pm

I do not have time to deal indepth but I wanted to comment on this one thing.

Genesis's dense asteroid field that Picard had to travel through to deal with the run away photon torpedo. We can see the asteroids Data warned Picard about as Picard returns to to the Enterprise-D.
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... sis176.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... sis181.jpg

This would corospond with this:

Captain's log, supplemental. Commander Data and I have recovered the stray torpedo after a three day search. We are enroute back to the Enterprise.

[Shuttlecraft]

DATA: Captain, the ship is not at the pre-arranged coordinates.
PICARD: Have they been delayed?
DATA: I do not know. I am unable to raise them on any communication channel.
PICARD: Scan the vicinity. See if you can find them.
DATA: I found it, sir, two light years away.
PICARD: Set a course.

Now I don't know where the Enterprise was supposed to meet the shuttle at but there is absolutely no demand that it had to have been holding position on the asteriod field's edge. Indeed considering it had traveled at least two lightyears during the "three day" search it likely they were indeed moving about as part of their tests and the pre-arranged coordinates weren't even in the original system. So there is no justification for there to be any descrepency with the asteriod field shown to be like this and a much later pic showing the shuttle like this. You want to debate comparisons Booby Trap I'm fine with that. But this does not compare and you know it.

Edit: Two lightyears instead of three. Mind must be playing tricks on me.

sonofccn · Post by **sonofccn** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:03 am

I would by lying to say this was the verdict I willed for but I pledged to honor it none the less. To that end, accepting the transgressions I comitted, I yield. I will refrain from interfering with Lucky's theroies if he will but refrain from mine.

Edit: Yielding debate to Lucky.

Mike DiCenso · Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:03 pm

Sonofcnn, Lucky. I've read your complaint reports about each other and I must say I'm pretty disappointed in you two. Both of you have points about the other that have merit, and so I'm giving you both a non-punitive warning to knock it off. This board has seen a period of peace that's lasted quite a while since SWST and KSW finally got the boot, and I won't tolerate any more nonsense. If you two cannot resolve your differences after this point, I will start handing out warnings to you.
-Mike

Starfleet Jedi

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