Mith wrote:Mr. Oragahn wrote:Torpedoes were obviously programmed, otherwise why would they curve down a hole?
We have modern Javelin missiles today that can lock onto a specific heat source and it has limited tracking capabilities. I would expect that these torpedoes could do the same thing.
And where is that heat source, in the Death Star?
Deep down the hole? The torpedo couldn't see it and would have no reason to turn before even coming above the hole. By then, it would be too late. That's assuming the sensors would pick the glowing pimple down the 60 or 80 km long shaft, which I pretty much doubt.
Or, the torpedo locks on the hot particles spewed by the shaft, but then they have no reason to curve down into the shaft either since the hottest spot a torpedo will hook on will be something very bright, halfway between a cone and a hemisphere.
So no in both cases. It only leaves programmation.
If they tracked heat, they'd have been flying in completely random directions.
No they wouldn't. You can sometime spoof heat-tracking systems, sure, but they just don't randomly go after heat signatures. That would make them useless.
Huh, out of that exhaust port, the heat levels would probably be way above the torpedoes' maximum threshold. How many times do they lock on a target that's precisely as hot as a small star?
Plus, to parrot what I said above, the thermal volume to lock on will come in a shape that leaves no single reason for the torp to follow a complicated path down the shaft.
And, of course, once in the shaft, why would a torpedo even adopt a perfect linear course when thermal sensors will be saturated?
So despite the obvious programmation, also obviously based on the plans, the shot was very hard because of the trajectory. I consider this due to the limitation of the programmation in that it required the torpedoes to fired within a certain distance. Otherwise pilots wouldn't need to cover a very specific minimal distance before having the right to fire.
The torpedoes could also just have a limited range, considering that they also need to follow the pipe over a hundred kilometers into the main reactor.
You contradict yourself. A torpedo with a limited range is precisely not going to spot a heat source that small and even manage to reach down such a deep shaft.
Hardly going to matter if they could have honed on the hole from the beginning. It's very obvious in the movie that the fighters could fly over the surface for a long period of time before really stacking the odds of being shot down against them. A rush attack directly on the exhaust shaft would have totally circumvented any need to fart around.
So the Rebels picked the dumbest method of attack? I'm not really following your logic here.
Since we know they could dive towards the hole instead of messing around, and since we know they still opted for a long complicated plan to approach said hole in the less favourable way, either they're total retards, or something might have prevented the torpedoes from entering the hole straight from above.
We didn't see any solid shield in place, so a force field would provide a reason to that convoluted plan. But Dodonna's words heavily imply that the proton torps will bypass the ray-shield.
Or the other reason is that they can't pass the ray-shield either, but since said ray-shield covers the shaft entrance from above and not from elements that came down the trench, it forces the rebels to fly down the trench, and yet, the only way to throw a thing inside that shaft would require a guided projectile weapon.
No matter how complicated this sounds, it's certainly valid.
Otherwise, if a torp can pass the shield from anywhere, why the tiresome trench run?
Btw, if one would think that Dodonna said they'd have to use missiles because the lasers can't get through, then it would mean he implied that withouth the ray-shield, the fighters might have been capable to shoot down the hole... and hit a target located several dozens of kilometers down a 2m wide shaft.
You're treating proton torpedoes as if they're the same as photon torpedoes.
I'm treating proton torpedoes as guided projectiles that actually were more suited to the task than the larger photon torpedoes.
They could have done exactly the same by attacking from above. If anything, flying close to the surface made them easier targets, easier to predict (because they have to avoid the surface, while in "pure space", any vector goes.
Well no, flying through the trench made them easier to predict. Because you know where they're going.
Not exactly. They are even more easier to predict down there. It still changes nothing that open spaces offers the more opportunities of maneuvers and dodging, plus a greater number of angles of attack.
You're only proving that they were going for the most difficult option.
How is that helping your argument?
Flying close to the surface denies most of their weapons any means of hitting you. Yeah sure, you might have some more maneuverability, but it's the difference of several weapons aiming at you at once, and several dozen weapons aiming at you at once.
Flying close to the surface is different than diving towards a single point on the surface, and that along a variety of vectors.
The Imperials simply had no way to hit the rebels in any sufficient quantity and time, that's quite clear from the movie.
So we again return to the idea that diving straight for the hole was not possible because of something that has nothing to do with the turrets.
That's actually a very bad idea, and a sure way to miss. It's not going to be precise enough. If they lock on the exhaust, they'd have to lock on a mass of expanding particles: if fired from above, they'd never have a clear view of the hole because flying through said cloud, the exhaust. From the sides, the jet itself would give no sufficient information as to how enter the hole. All the torp would see is like a massive geyser of stuff to aim for. Way too vague and absolutely hopeless in order to achieve the necessary turn.
They can send new coordinates to the torpedo in mid-flight.
How? The torpedoes will get closer to the shaft before the fighters themselves. How would the fighters ever provide better coordinates when they'd be lagging behind the torpedoes?
And eventually, if a couple of buzzing X-wings were spying the shaft entrance like vultures and sending data back to a couple fighters coming in hot to fire at the hole, that doesn't circumvent the main problem that if the torpedo luckily gets inside, it's flying blind then.
Plus the plan still works better if the fighters fire from above. Yet we know they didn't.
So back to square one with a complicated plan and some even more complicated torpedo maneuver.
There's no reason why the torpedo is going to miss.
Aside from all reasons I actually cited you mean?
And if I recall, the hit on the BoP was pretty much a direct hit, even after it was flying around in circles for a few moments, following the BoP's trail (which likewise would have had expanding particles).
It was a direct hit that first debuted with a torp flying in the most hilarious way, looking for something to strike, perhaps even flying along some drifting trace of hot particles, until it found a wall. The torpedo has been flying towards the BoP which was facing the Enterprise. The torpedo arced to curve around the Enterprise, back towards the BoP looking at her. So anything tells us that the thrusters were not even in sight of the torpedo. The thing went for the biggest and hottest cloud of ionized gas. Plus how can you compare hitting a large starship with fitting a torpedo into a 2m wide hole that's emitting a large quantity of super heated particles? This doesn't prove that the torpedo was accurate at all.
And even if we disclude that, there's no reason why they can't just program the torpedo to aim for the hole, enter it, and follow it to the main reactor.
Same goes with the rebels then, and yet, we'd be stuck with them not firing a programmed torpedo from above.
That wasn't needed, obviously.
Then why mention it?
I don't recall Dodonna saying the torpedoes would lock onto the heat stream. Dude only said what the hole's purpose was.
Not to say that I'm pretty sure EU would have enough information to contradict you, and TCW may have had an episode with the thermal shields helping mask a ship from any lock I think, but I haven't seen that one.
RSA surely would know more about it.
What kind of thermal shields? As in energy shields or hull material?
There's been a TCW episode with some greenish thermal shields I think.
I haven't watched much of the series though.
If it has to turn, it's bad.
Oookay, but the flight trajectory to the target is pretty predictable.
Only if it comes from above. Which... ----------------> the rebels didn't do that.
The hole isn't that wide. Anyway, the size is a massive problem if the torpedo has to turn into the hole.
Uh, it's several meters wide. The entire torpedo's length is like what, a meter and a half? It's width is far less?
It's length is the obvious problem.
Do we have any Trek scene with some decent FX that shows a torpedo doing that kind of maneuver?
Since ANH, why? We also saw that in TCW with the ones fired from a rocket launcher.
Have you missed the particle field that's cast around the conical torpedo?
I must have. When did we know what that glow was?
A force field that holds glowing particles in place. It's obviously a shield of some sort, no matter its strength, even if not intended as a shield.
I remember we never ever had any solid confirmation that Trek torpedoes are shielded either.
At least the SW EU, if it's to be cited here, makes this a fact.
The (assumed) shielding on Trek's torps provides no advantage.
I'm not assuming they're shielded. The torpedo glow existed before Starfleet had actual shields. It's much more likely the torpedo is trying to 'blind' its exact location to enemy defenses so it can get in closer. Its major advantage here would be its greater speed (which is .75c+ship velocity) over the proton torpedo.
Hence why I'd suggest that the Enterprise D go with a full ten torpedo volley.
Such a ludicrous speed, for such a shot, is precisely the worst thing to go with. And a volley? Depends on the rate of fire. If anything, you want to shoot them one at a time in an orderly fashion and at least see what happens. You may not even want to spam and screw your chances. What if they miss by little, but by having fired too many of them, it's too late to make a correction cause they literally damaged the hole itself beyond any hope to hit with any sufficient precision?
That's the same point as earlier, but you'll probably say they won't miss. No proof of that, though.
Torps had no reason to complete a super turn into the pipe unless they were coded to do that, which forced the pilots to have to shoot from a specific distance.
While it's certainly possible that their torpedoes can be pre-programmed, that doesn't make any sense. If they were pre-programmed, why not fire them from farther away than what Luke did?
Jamming? Or course correction? Perhaps risks of interception?
Point is, tracking the heat would most certainly have the torpedoes never even get the necessary data to "think" about getting inside the hole. They're not super smart either, so there's not much left in terms of trails to go after for the torps to have any good reason to get inside that hole.
Getting close to the hole, however, guarantees a maximum accuracy and a short enough distance from the target, reducing the risks of the torpedo to veer off course because of some incorrect data (the torpedo still needs to know where it is by triangulating its position from something).
They seemed to require a lock with a targeting computer (...that Luke didn't use). And again, heat locks don't mean the torpedo fly off randomly at any target with a heat signature.
The lock is obtained when the minimal safe distance is covered. You know, the reasons one can oppose to the idea of a programmation of torps also apply to the auto-homing idea: why didn't the rebels fire from a greater distance then? What's so hard to lock onto a hole which is like a sitting duck and precisely found where the plans indicated it was...
