Starfleet Jedi

Connor says something that I think says as much about him - and about SDN, and about VS "fanwank," as it may be referred to, in general, as the Tau:

Connor Macleod wrote:My main beef with the Tau isn't so much the tactics by itself, although that plays into the problem I have. My main problem is with the presentation of the Tau concept as is, as opposed to what they think it is. We've basically got a small Empire that at BEST maybe is starting to get into the "hundreds of worlds" stage and has maybe billions of troops tops. How the hell do they make any real impact that would make them noticable enough on any scale? I mean we have the Necrons and the Eldar, who are remnants of once-vast civilisations and are still scattered across the galaxy. We have Orks and Tyranids who are galaxy spanning. We have Chaos. The tau really don't fit in. Hell they're smaller than the Squats (who had thousands of systems by themselves!)

"My conception of the WH40kverse is one in which a hundred worlds and a billion troops don't matter. The fact that the Tau are in any way significant is incompatible with how I want the VS debate to be. If the Tau are somehow significant, couldn't another polity with mere hundreds of worlds in play make a significant impact (e.g., STverse, BTverse, SCverse, etc.)?"

Everything else pretty much follows from the size. Holding so few systems means they have vastly fewer troops, ships, resources, etc. and Technology only makes up for so much. Its kinda lke the Federation (tau) vs Empire (IoM) debate in absurdity - it just can't be made to work without some deus ex machina.

And invariably that IS what happens. You've got the Astronomican flickering now, which just HAPPENS to isolate the Imperium further from the Tau. You have the Imperium coincidentally always being too busy to properly deploy forces elsewhere ot handle the Tau (the Vostroyan incident is one case, the Taros crusade is another. Although at least with Taros they admit that luck played a huge role there) Then there's Andy Hoare's rogue trader novels in general.

A footnote here: Compared to other universes' highly reliable (and in most cases, generally faster) FTL, travel through the Warp is so terrible that in most cases, the Imperium would be facing every bit as much of a relative transportation difficulty as they do against the Tau.

In the case of the BTverse, things are kinda slow - 30 light year jumps every week, or in the case of ships with a lithium fusion battery, two 30 light year jumps every two weeks - averaging 1560c if you happen to be jumping in a straight line. This is one of the major reasons why the BTverse has a lot of trouble on the strategic level against things from the WH40kverse; they don't have the advantage of being able to fly circles around WH40k on the strategic level or on the ship-to-ship level, as much tail as they might kick on the ground.

As I see it, the issue is not that the Tau are small; it is that they make the Imperium look singularly incompetent and inefficient, and that they seem the Imperium seem less majestic. The Tau represent a canonical example of the sort of polity that the Imperium is pitted against on SB and SDN, and the Imperium has not been doing all that well against them on the whole. And the Tau do not even have some of the advantages that more sophisticated powers do; they don't have something to match SW hyperdrive or SW warp drive, or transporters, or replicators, etc.

Jedi Master Spock wrote:Connor says something that I think says as much about him - and about SDN, and about VS "fanwank," as it may be referred to, in general, as the Tau:

Connor Macleod wrote:My main beef with the Tau isn't so much the tactics by itself, although that plays into the problem I have. My main problem is with the presentation of the Tau concept as is, as opposed to what they think it is. We've basically got a small Empire that at BEST maybe is starting to get into the "hundreds of worlds" stage and has maybe billions of troops tops. How the hell do they make any real impact that would make them noticable enough on any scale? I mean we have the Necrons and the Eldar, who are remnants of once-vast civilisations and are still scattered across the galaxy. We have Orks and Tyranids who are galaxy spanning. We have Chaos. The tau really don't fit in. Hell they're smaller than the Squats (who had thousands of systems by themselves!)

Well maybe that's because the Tau have a well structured system and aren't so large and disorganized that they're fighting a hopless eternal war trying to dig themselves out of the thirty foot hole in the ground with water pouring in.


And Star Trek being supreme wouldn't be bad either. =p

Everything else pretty much follows from the size. Holding so few systems means they have vastly fewer troops, ships, resources, etc. and Technology only makes up for so much. Its kinda lke the Federation (tau) vs Empire (IoM) debate in absurdity - it just can't be made to work without some deus ex machina.

Much to your delusion Connor, it can work. Let’s face it, with such a massive galaxy the Tau’s territory is rather small and the much larger, much more attractive prize is the Imperium. The Orks know them as a greater challenge, the Tyranids are attracted to the greater population, and Chaos is a long standing enemy. The Eldar and the Necrons are pretty much wild cards in a manner, but again they’re going to care more about the larger target. And that one is the Imperium.

Hence, staying in a small territory while building up technology and power slowly is a bit more ideal. Face it; the Imperium is dying and any person with a basic sense of strategy can see that they’re barely hanging onto life. Only the bullshit ‘Reborn Emperor’ thing is the hope of the Imperium and I suspect that Warhammer might try and faze that out because it gives hope in a grimdark world.

And invariably that IS what happens. You've got the Astronomican flickering now, which just HAPPENS to isolate the Imperium further from the Tau.

Well, that’s what you get for relying on one single method of FTL transportation and not bothering to perform any sort of viable research on other FTL methods. It’s that sort of thing that allows your civilization to wither and die.

Reborn Emperor. Might need a little bit of squeezing there.

And invariably that IS what happens. You've got the Astronomican flickering now, which just HAPPENS to isolate the Imperium further from the Tau.

Mith wrote:Well, that’s what you get for relying on one single method of FTL transportation and not bothering to perform any sort of viable research on other FTL methods. It’s that sort of thing that allows your civilization to wither and die.

You hit the nail on the head regarding the IoM, it is a slowly dying behemoth in large part because the Emperor is essentially gone (he's been on life support for a good long while in the 'current' timeline), and it has lost the ability to reproduce certain technologies much less R&D critical new ones. Communication is another issue as the High Lords have trouble maintaining detailed control of individual systems due to the fact that only certain gifted persons can use the alternate warp to send messages. All this keeps in line with the WH40k theme of the IoM being a parallel to the Roman Empire.
-Mike

Safe that in all likeliness, Rome was defeated by usury, not Chaos, Nids or Orks. :D

Barbarians all! :-P
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:
You hit the nail on the head regarding the IoM, it is a slowly dying behemoth in large part because the Emperor is essentially gone (he's been on life support for a good long while in the 'current' timeline), and it has lost the ability to reproduce certain technologies much less R&D critical new ones. Communication is another issue as the High Lords have trouble maintaining detailed control of individual systems due to the fact that only certain gifted persons can use the alternate warp to send messages. All this keeps in line with the WH40k theme of the IoM being a parallel to the Roman Empire.
-Mike

It is and it isn't.

Certainly the lost tech and R&D is true, to an extent. The AdMech certainly does develop new equipment, auger rounds and a Navy ship whose class I can't recall at the moment. It does lose designs of course, the practice of the Forge Worlds being semi-independent lead to the loss of the Leman Russ Vanquisher plans when it's Forge World was over run by Orks. Though other worlds have brought their own designs forward to bridge the gap.

Like everything in WH40K, a grain of salt needs to be taken with things. Certainly the IoM can be it's own worst enemy in regards to certain things. But by no means do I think it will fall anytime soon (GW doesn't want to lose that cash cow ;) ).

As for the Tau, I don't much care for them either. Especially since I read Kill Team where it's revealed that Kage's homeworld contains more people then a Tau Sept (solar system IIRC).

The way I see it the Tau are a highly unified, reasonably advanced power who , admittedly, have enjoyed great luck in their surroundings and events. While they are not as widespread as Ork or Eldar the fact they don't fight among themselves as much balances it. Additionally it isn't like they are portrayed as all conquering dreadnoughts, their just taking a sliver of the galaxy which the over taxed Empire can't spare itself to crush.

That is to my understanding an underlining theme in the works. The Imperium of Man , assailed on all fronts by enemies it could crush in singular combat, slowly being grounded to dust ultimately leading to the historic fable of a young, dynamic nation arising and feeding upon the ashes of the older, bloated lethargic previous one. The Tau fit that bill as good as anyone.

sonofccn wrote:The way I see it the Tau are a highly unified, reasonably advanced power who , admittedly, have enjoyed great luck in their surroundings and events. While they are not as widespread as Ork or Eldar the fact they don't fight among themselves as much balances it. Additionally it isn't like they are portrayed as all conquering dreadnoughts, their just taking a sliver of the galaxy which the over taxed Empire can't spare itself to crush.

That is to my understanding an underlining theme in the works. The Imperium of Man , assailed on all fronts by enemies it could crush in singular combat, slowly being grounded to dust ultimately leading to the historic fable of a young, dynamic nation arising and feeding upon the ashes of the older, bloated lethargic previous one. The Tau fit that bill as good as anyone.

If they can hold together long enough. There's some evidence to suggest that the further the Tau spread the less hold the "greater good" has, there has already been at least two commanders break the Etheral's hold and go rogue.

Their slow as shite FTL really won't help things either. I suspect that were the IoM to fall that the Tau would eventually be swept under by the Nids and Orks.

One of the things I do like about the Tau is that they aren't massively xenophobic and racist like pretty much every other WH40k power. If you want to see humans and aliens working in harmony, the Tau are pretty much the only place to go.

The Imperium likes to squash such alliances. That said, the Tau are not all pink.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:That said, the Tau are not all pink.

In WH40k, who is?

Jedi Master Spock wrote:One of the things I do like about the Tau is that they aren't massively xenophobic and racist like pretty much every other WH40k power. If you want to see humans and aliens working in harmony, the Tau are pretty much the only place to go.

If by harmony you mean; "join up or we squash you", then yes. They are at least magnanimous in victory but you'll never be more then you are now.

The Imperium likes to squash such alliances. That said, the Tau are not all pink.

Thats because they actually are right. In WH40K, every race would happily screw over humanity (or any of the others) if they could.

The Dude wrote:

The Imperium likes to squash such alliances. That said, the Tau are not all pink.

Thats because they actually are right. In WH40K, every race would happily screw over humanity (or any of the others) if they could.

The Imperium even ruined the Interex, before the Heresy.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Imperium even ruined the Interex, before the Heresy.

That is a gross simplification of what happened. A Marine tainted by Chaos stole a Kinebrach weapon out of a museum and blew it up. The Interex, believing Horus's forces tainted by Chaos attacked his retinue.