Starfleet Jedi

Just as it says. The rules are simple:

1) Both sides will not suffer invasions. While heresey and rebellion still occur in the Imperium and patrols will still have to be performed, there's not going to be anything that will require a large fleet to deal with. Same with the Federation; they still have pirates and political jockying along their neigbhor's borders, but otherwise no invasions (that means no Borg either).

2) The link between the two worlds are created via wormhole generators. Each side has twenty of them located in the largest, most populated systems. The generators themselves can only link to the edge of the opposing side's territory. Using the wormhole generators creates a massive burst of power signature that travels at FTL. It will light up any sensor within ten light years in a minute and a hundred light years in an hour. The burst is an initial thing, so the duration of which the wormhole is left open (no more than 1 hour--recharge is 6 hours) cannot be determined via this method.

3) Communication networks can be mantained, since each side will be using micro-wormhole generators (comes with the big ones) to relay the communication signals.

4) All ships are generaly on par with each other as far as firepower is concerned, thus evading the dick vs. dick argument. This thread is more about battle tactics, strategies, industrial capabilities, and ground force capabilities.

5) Both sides will be considered more or less competent. Ie, they will still use the same weapons and methods that we see before, but we won't fall prey to the failure of an author to describe hand to hand properly or demand an actor fill a physical role that he simply can't.

Rules of Engagement

Scenario One: Gentleman's Duel. Each side will not perform orbital bombardment or use biological weapons. Basically, any sort of underhanded tactic that kills on a global scale cannot be used as a standard tactic. Precies Orbital Strikes are still valid, so long as they're military targest only.

Scenario Two: To the Death. No limitations. Both sides are allowed and intent upon crushing each other. Both sides are allowed to bombard planets (with sufficient reasons--ie, bombing the fuck out of the planet is a last resort, not the first option).

Just so we're clear this is the Imperium of Man correct? From 40k?

And as extension it no longer has to worry about the various Xenos like Orks, Necrons etc so that it can bring its full might to bear?

Well no matter what else things are going to get bloody. I'm sure JMS or Mr. Oragahn have a far better grasp of the IOM scale but I think I can safely say it has a larger industrial base than the Federation even if it isn't building ships very quickly. I think in either scenario the IOM will win in the end by wieght of numbers through it will be one hell of a battle. Even with a slight advantage navaly, equal firepower but much greater finess when compared to what the Imperium dishes out, I think the Feds will be swamped.

Of course while debating ferengi replace the Tau on another forum it was mentioned, but alas I couldn't obtain any actual quotes, the Imperium took a full century after deciding the Tau were a threat to actually finish preperations and attack. If something similar happens in regards to the Federation we would be nearing the point where it canocially mastered time travel which is as close to an "I win button" as can be devised. Still would be a fun battle to see, medievil peasents hauling massive shells which in turn are fired, after reciting the proper prayers, at the progressive-Utopians which are the Federation in thier sleek advanced looking starships.

There's going to be a shit lot of ripped pajamas and wasted prayers.
The UFP has less ships, less worlds to rely on, a mediocre ground combat capacity -and that matters a lot if you want to conquer or defend a place without nuking it- and its ships aren't particularly much faster than IoM ships in FTL.
However both sides will need to compile a decent star chart before attacking.
There's going to be a huge problem for the IoM: there could be no warp in the Trek MW. And that, from what I collected, means very slooooooow FTL trips. Many jumps, many calculations, for short 4-5 LY hops.

It's possible Trek has what it takes to "stun" ships, although stunning the ship will be least of the UFP's problems, unless they can beam all the crew into space (but Trek beaming tech has limitations nonetheless). I don't know if the IoM could stun anything in space with even the higher level psykers sent on a special mission. You may need to look for a major outlier where an entire crew got mind raped or something, or at least troubled in their actions so far as to become mildly incompetent. Or perhaps several psykers can focus their attention, during a battle against an UFP ship, on one crew member who'll be used to consult the ship's crew list and systems, and from there one thing the psykers would need to do is find the guy who's at the helm of the battle controls and above all, the shields. From there some SM could be beamed on board an UFP ship. Or they just spam it with enough firepower to get her shields down. There's obviously going to be a battle at some point when one side outnumbers the other, even if it's only 3 vs 2 ship.

With relatively equal firepower, an UFP ship is much smaller than a typical IoM cruiser or else, but is also much more maneuverable (IoM ships are lumbering), and could stay out of the main weapons. IoM ships have atrocious blind spots on their aft. IoM ships have, in general, very good ranges for ALL their weapons. UFP ships will have to rely on their torpedoes, or sneak on top of the IoM ships via warp before attacking, to close the distance.

I'm not sure what the OP meant by both sides have the same firepower, since I don't think it's fair to claim that 600 meters long UFP ships, or the shorter Defiant, would be able to match the firepower of warships that measure several kilometers long -even if they seem to waste much space and rely on stupid arm oil work to arm some major weapons like the macro cannons.

That said, the UFP has an advantage, in that it's not stuck in an arse backwards "dark age" (I say that cause the medieval DA were not as miserable as what most people think). So the UFP can adapt, and technically, they'll have enough time to do so.
They clearly have the technology to bring decent ground troops, but it's going to need the UFP to seriously reconsider their vision of ground battle, and build some ships meant to carry and deploy troops and vehicles on a large scale. Sure if they have established space superiority, they'll be able to beam each soldier one by one into deep space, but the UFP won't always have the luxury of owning space. That said, considering how the IoM could really drag itself through mud when in Trek MW, they will unlikely be capable of attacking any colony of importance before decades. Hell, because of their hops, they'll drop out of FTL and be spottable, and UFP ships will be much faster in their own territories, relatively speaking.

They'll have to focus on the new combat class ships we've seen in late TNG and beyond.

The IoM has the advantage of having many more warships, built for war and nothing else. However it will still take lots of time to move those ships to the borders of the IoM's territory, and especially the more distant they get from the Astronomican.

One very interesting aspect of the IoM is just how one massive strike against Terra would seriously fuck the IoM up. Sure, the whole solar system is well defended, but I'm sure it would warrant a surprise attack worth it. If Terra goes down, it will be an absolute total collapse of the IoM. Way too many forge worlds will starve to death and will have to work with what is available around their short radius of influence. Hive worlds will starve to death as well, and that's a bad thing since it's where the IoM gets many of its IG troops and other random special squads.

No matter the scenario, only sheer absolute incompetence would have the UFP never do their worst to Terra. The advantage for the UFP is that the MW would, in theory, be relatively similar, structure wise, to the Trek MW, so it's literally easy to plot a straight course to Terra. This plan of action would, of course, only happen after the UFP learns about warp, the Corpse, the Astronomican and what goes on. But once this info is held, it's literally bye bye the IoM. The fall of Terra will even the field. The UFP may even literally sit back and enjoy the show and the IoM is turned upside down and inside out.

Unless the IoM retroengineers warp drive technology, it's completely screwed on the medium to long term.

The UFP will bring higher technology and dreams of real space and abundance to those who survive, freed form the idiocy of the IoM. Some may refuse to collaborate with the enemy, but in the end, the UFP won't require slavery. The UFP will make sure not to give a technology that's too advanced to the IoM worlds too fast, they want to quell any attempt at retaliation. They'll make sure everyone gets food and lives on an nice planet, and after one or two generations, even the die hard IoM followers, Space Marines or not, won't be able to do much. Oh sure, psykers will be able to do lots of damage, but nothing much relevant on the large scale. Betazoids will be useful to notice the presence of psykers as well, so infiltrations will not be so easy either.

hi i hope its okay I posted this debate on spacebattles since there werent a lot of people around here

i tried to ask but I was having trouble logging in and have only just managed it.

so thats why there are more than one new guys called zarek I'm sorry

No Warp in the MW means no FTL period for the IoM, it also means no psykers and no Navigators. Now it would be pretty ridiculous to post a scenario where the IoM had no Warp access as it would just be an insta-win for the Feds.

If we assume that subspace exists in all universes while it's nothing more than an invention, we can equally assume that warp is in all universes, although empty and untapped.

Oh craps, I totally forgot they moved the entire Sol system to its current location.

Mith wrote:1) Both sides will not suffer invasions. While heresey and rebellion still occur in the Imperium and patrols will still have to be performed, there's not going to be anything that will require a large fleet to deal with. Same with the Federation; they still have pirates and political jockying along their neigbhor's borders, but otherwise no invasions (that means no Borg either).

No major invasions favors the Federation, as the Imperium is generally constantly dealing with minor invasions. No invasions period would favor the Imperium heavily. Relative peace is probably the fairest scenario, but that one also favors the Federation.

2) The link between the two worlds are created via wormhole generators. Each side has twenty of them located in the largest, most populated systems. The generators themselves can only link to the edge of the opposing side's territory. Using the wormhole generators creates a massive burst of power signature that travels at FTL. It will light up any sensor within ten light years in a minute and a hundred light years in an hour. The burst is an initial thing, so the duration of which the wormhole is left open (no more than 1 hour--recharge is 6 hours) cannot be determined via this method.

Problem for the Federation: Linking to the edge of Imperium territory in an unexplored galaxy means that travel into the heart of the Imperium will take years.

Problem for the Imperium: Not having an Emperor-Beacon means that Imperium ships are limping around the Federation with more difficulty than usual. By which I mean "Tau-like" speed.

Since "normal" speeds are most consistently indicated at 2,000-12,000 c from the elapsed frame of reference of the rest of the galaxy for WH40k with non-beacon travel at 20%, and long-range travel in ST can be clocked at 1,000-10,000 c in unexplored territory, if the Imperium has to deploy, say, 4,000 LY from Earth and the Federation 30,000 LY from Earth, that means that it will take an Imperium assault fleet 3-16 years to travel from wormhole to Earth, and a Federation assault fleet 3-30 years to travel to Terra.

Now, in both cases, territorial "edges" are in fact much closer depending on how porously we consider Imperium and Federation territory. In both cases, for example, Earth is roughly the same distance from being outside the Milky Way, and in both cases, the human sphere of influence extends vertically (galactic z-axis) pretty much to the galactic edge, meaning 1,000 LY.

This is in both cases a substantial distance. Federation and Imperium long-haul "unsupported" speed within "unexplored" class territory is comparable (240-2400 vs 1,000-10,000 means no significant difference).

In the case of the Federation, interior speeds for military ships are significantly more than 2400 c. That means that the Federation has strategic mobility on defense (240-2400 <<< 10,000-1,000,000).

However, Imperium speeds within Imperium territory are not consistently higher than Federation speeds in Imperium territory (VOY-type speeds are within the ranges indicated for normal Imperium travel speeds.)

Therefore, overall strategic mobility problem goes to the Federation, who has a substantive defensive advantage and no significant offensive disadvantage. Note also that the extension of "explored" speed territory requires good navigational maps for the Federation and fixed Warp beacons for the Imperium. This makes warp beacons a primary target for the Federation.

Left unresolved by this is the question of whether or not the ships can detect one another while traveling at FTL. If not (as is very likely for WH40k ships, which are generally surprised by enemies exiting the Warp), this heavily favors ST ships.

On the system scale, the limitation that WH40k ships generally enter on the edge of the system and then spend quite a length of time (days to weeks, even) traveling in-system to reach inner planets under typical circumstances means that any attacked Federation system will be very likely able to rally a defensive fleet before actually being subject to bombardment or conquest.

3) Communication networks can be mantained, since each side will be using micro-wormhole generators (comes with the big ones) to relay the communication signals.

Since WH40K communication is ordinarily subject to Warp fiat, this is an improvement in reliability of WH40k communications. Since ST communications are [sometimes albeit not consistently] speed-limited, this improves ST comm speeds.

4) All ships are generaly on par with each other as far as firepower is concerned, thus evading the dick vs. dick argument. This thread is more about battle tactics, strategies, industrial capabilities, and ground force capabilities.

If overall per-ship firepower is equivalent, other tactical factors such as range and accuracy mean that ship-on-ship battles favor ST ships enormously. Combined with the ability to respond to any system invasion quickly, and possibly develop a Treknobabble solution to the detection/interception problem, this makes it virtually impossible for the Imperium to make significant offensive progress against the Federation. This will more than make up for the Imperium's possible superiority in the number of warships they are able to commit to offensive operations.

The Imperium is further likely to be distracted and invade plenty of non-Federation planets along the way. Its motivations are rarely tightly focused.

We must, therefore, conversely consider the problem faced by the Federation. This is a more complex problem, in that we have absolutely no clue as to how, or whether, the Federation will conquer Imperial worlds and be able to turn them into productive territories for their own purposes.

Moreover, there are quite a few Imperium worlds. Even assuming the Federation invasion enables indigenous rebel groups to seize power and produce allied native forces, the Federation is unlikely to be willing or able to engage in wide-scale conquest of the Imperium piece by piece. Instead, it is necessary that the Federation engage in a decapitation strike. Take out the High Lords of Terra and the Astronomican, and the Imperium is rendered impotent.

5) Both sides will be considered more or less competent. Ie, they will still use the same weapons and methods that we see before, but we won't fall prey to the failure of an author to describe hand to hand properly or demand an actor fill a physical role that he simply can't.

Rules of Engagement

Scenario One: Gentleman's Duel. Each side will not perform orbital bombardment or use biological weapons. Basically, any sort of underhanded tactic that kills on a global scale cannot be used as a standard tactic. Precies Orbital Strikes are still valid, so long as they're military targest only.

In this scenario, Imperium forces are unable to commit more than minimal amounts of offensive action against Federation forces. It is also fairly difficult for Federation forces to subjugate worlds and help install friendly governments on them, and cracking fortified Sol system without using WMDs is difficult.

Conflict lasts years, possibly ending when the UFP has obtained good navigational data enabling them to make a fast strike on Terra with a "Sacrifice of Angels" scale fleet... and possibly not. The Imperium's inefficiency and inability to establish any serious foothold in Federation space (and the fact that the Imperium has probably started wars with every other AQ power along the way, per its standard modus operandi)

Scenario Two: To the Death. No limitations. Both sides are allowed and intent upon crushing each other. Both sides are allowed to bombard planets (with sufficient reasons--ie, bombing the fuck out of the planet is a last resort, not the first option).

This allows the UFP to nail Sol System with one massive strike as the war grows in cost, expense, and brutality. It also allows the Imperium to start burning UFP worlds whenever the fleet doesn't arrive quickly enough. Since non-Astronomican Imperium ships have the strategic mobility of mud, this is about the only thing allowing them to make offensive progress of note, and that progress will be slow and expensive.

rebelzarek wrote:hi i hope its okay I posted this debate on spacebattles since there werent a lot of people around here

And chances are, you just started a shit storm.

i tried to ask but I was having trouble logging in and have only just managed it.

You should have asked first. I could have told you otherwise that it wouldn't have been worth the trouble. The replies there will range from "Mith is a wanker" to "Trek gets raped".

Well, I guess I should give my own analysis on this. Oh, and JMS, as far as 'invasions go', I suppose relative peace would be the best assumption.

Size & Industry
Clearly, the Imperium has a much larger bulk than the Federation. Their industry would simply be unbelievably massive. At the same time however, their sophistication I think is inferior. It takes them decades to build large warships--and although these ships are much more massive than UFP ships, the UFP's production rate is clearly much higher (although, it should be noted that this is a more recent thing--early UFP would have been easily outmatched).

That said, the populations of both are actually around the same. The Federation had lost millions during the war with the dominion and the end estimation should the Alph-Beta powers lose the war was 900 billion (civilian and military assumed) and the Imperium has 'countless billions'. Given the rather violent nature of 40k, I suppose it isn't too shocking that the don't vastly outnumber the more prosperous Federation by a hundred to one.

Fleets
Fleet sizes. The Federation has a confirmed 10,000 starships minimum and a more probablye 30,000 (note two factors; the registry numbers of 70,000+ starships and that the authors of DS9 considered that to be the fleet numbers. Also note that the UFP uses a great deal of older ships). The Imperium, taking Oraghan's higher end number of 50,000 or so, would be considerably larger.

In terms of general upkeep, both sides are actually commonly seen using really old designs. Miranda, Excelsior, and even Connies were seen in the Dominion War, despite being over a hundred years old in some cases. The same can be said for the Imperium, though they can number in the hundreds of years.

That said, I would actually consider the Federation fleets to be in better shape overall. The Federation has a healtheir industry and doesn't rely upon archaic technology surrounded in mystery.

Ground Combat
No doubt about it this is where 40k trounces Trek ground forces. Even with phasers set to high enough levels to one shot Space Marines, the Federation is simply not a war-like culture. That said, they do have the potential to be just as powerful, if not more so than the Imperium on ground combat, if they were really clever and used a great deal of tech-of-the-week.

That said, I see most ground battles going to the Imperium unless the UFP forces have space superority, in which case precise strikes against military targest is probably their only means of taking control. I could see that even coming to hurt the UFP more, given that this would mean a Starship would need to remain within reasonable distance in order to assist.

Just some general thoughts on it.

Mith wrote:That said, the populations of both are actually around the same. The Federation had lost millions during the war with the dominion and the end estimation should the Alph-Beta powers lose the war was 900 billion (civilian and military assumed) and the Imperium has 'countless billions'. Given the rather violent nature of 40k, I suppose it isn't too shocking that the don't vastly outnumber the more prosperous Federation by a hundred to one.

Forgive me but doesn't the Imperium have several Hive worlds with tens of billions if not hundreds living on them or am I mistaken? I would have guessed the IOM would have a far higher population than just the UFP.

JediMasterSpock wrote:Since "normal" speeds are most consistently indicated at 2,000-12,000 c from the elapsed frame of reference of the rest of the galaxy for WH40k with non-beacon travel at 20%, and long-range travel in ST can be clocked at 1,000-10,000 c in unexplored territory, if the Imperium has to deploy, say, 4,000 LY from Earth and the Federation 30,000 LY from Earth, that means that it will take an Imperium assault fleet 3-16 years to travel from wormhole to Earth, and a Federation assault fleet 3-30 years to travel to Terra.

I don't think the Imperium would mind a multi-year war, their short wars seem to cover a span of decades, or the time and trouble it would take to annex planet's on the fringe of UFP space and either build a small varient of the navi-beacon, if that is possible, or construct additional shipyards. They strike me as having the paitence and will to sacrifice regiment after regiment, ship after ship keeping the Federation busy closer to thier interior while the IOM spreads like a cancer across the frontier. My thoughts of course.

Mr.Oragahn wrote:With relatively equal firepower, an UFP ship is much smaller than a typical IoM cruiser or else, but is also much more maneuverable (IoM ships are lumbering), and could stay out of the main weapons. IoM ships have atrocious blind spots on their aft. IoM ships have, in general, very good ranges for ALL their weapons. UFP ships will have to rely on their torpedoes, or sneak on top of the IoM ships via warp before attacking, to close the distance.

While I agree over long term the UFP will tend to shoot from range early on they'll likely get as up close and personal as they normally do. They have the capability to peg starships at 90,000 kilometers easy but tend to prefer shorter and I think in those early engagments the IOM ships will have the advantage. They are tough old gals meant to slag each other again and again before they croak while to me Trek ships seem "softer" only designed to exchange fire for a few minutes before one ship explodes. I could be wrong of course.

Time is meaningless. Some famous warriors of the Iom have lived centuries, their dreadnoughts are millenia old for some othem, wars can last indefinitely, and the whole Empire has been been in like a constant warring state for... pff we stopped counting, right?

They also have more than 30,000 hive world, each generally populated by one of those city-mounds, of varying size, plus a whole industrialized area around for some of them, and the upper end of this is complete coverage of a continent, although this seems to be more the case for forge worlds.
Terra is just a dead world covered with cities. All oceans are gone, only remain the Himalayas, notably because of the Astronomican underneath that range.
Hive worlds have two digits billion figures for population in general, some even reaching up to 100 bn. Terra is said to be the most populated place iirc.

The 900 billion figure is nothing firm because contextually it can easily be understood as the losses resulting from a continuous full scale war going on over five generations.
This interpretation would mean 900 bn is a cap, not a minimum. That said, even with such a cap, the true population number would still rate in the several hundred billions, if only to allow for the projected casualties.

But this population is simply ridiculous in light of the IoM's population.

Simply put, without true large scale WMD, the UFP will only annoy the IoM, for it has just so much inertia.

The second scenario is a clear win for the UFP. There is one thing that maintains the Imperium, and it's Terra, its High Lords, the Astronomican and the God Emperor. Anyone foe who can jump in system right next to Terra, drop any silly super weapon, crack the planet or at the very least pulverize the Astronomican will destroy the entire Imperium from within.

The Imperium loses, but humanity wins.

Humanity wins how? The IoM keeps Chaos at bay, destroying Terra, the GEoM and the command infrastructure of the IoM is basically a guaranteed win for Chaos and catastrophe for whoever attempts to usurp them.

Call me crazy but the UFP isn't exactly equipped to deal with Chaos.

The Dude wrote:Humanity wins how? The IoM keeps Chaos at bay, destroying Terra, the GEoM and the command infrastructure of the IoM is basically a guaranteed win for Chaos and catastrophe for whoever attempts to usurp them.

Call me crazy but the UFP isn't exactly equipped to deal with Chaos.

Well you're crazy then. :P

More seriously, those baaad creatures feed upon all the negative stuff. When you look at the timeline, the Chaos Gods seemed to gain power when humanity really started to get dirty. Slaanesh itself appeared many millennia after the other ones due to the decadence of the Eldars.
If anything, the UFP appears to be a dreamlike society. The Chaos is strong in the WH40K Milky Way because there is only war, pain, decadence and filth. All of which the UFP doesn't really show as a whole.

It's said that the Immaterium was much more neutral before that entire flood of such negative emotions the Chaos Gods feast upon, and the demons were only feral and wild creatures, nothing like the twist monsters we know.
The psykers will still exist when Terra will fall, they'll still fight. Chaos will surely grow for some time, but humans in this galaxy will die in droves, negating the source of emotions. All ravaged planets won't be able to sustain themselves. The dustbin worlds will be forgotten places, the Imperium's population will drop.

The Chaos forces remind me of ecologists. They need pollution to exist. If they "destroy" pollution, they fade out of existence. What the WH40K MW needs is a shit lot of positive emotions, and that can safely be brought to humanity with the UFP terraforming the ravaged worlds and bringing the survivors to a fair and post-scarcity society that already counts many peaceful and wonderful worlds and which will count more after that.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
More seriously, those baaad creatures feed upon all the negative stuff. When you look at the timeline, the Chaos Gods seemed to gain power when humanity really started to get dirty. Slaanesh itself appeared many millennia after the other ones due to the decadence of the Eldars.
If anything, the UFP appears to be a dreamlike society. The Chaos is strong in the WH40K Milky Way because there is only war, pain, decadence and filth. All of which the UFP doesn't really show as a whole.

Actually its more emotion in general, positive or negative. Slaanesh is all about sensation for example, and came about because the Eldar were basically fucking and screwing around 24/7. Khorne really doesn't care about your emotional state when you kill someone, only the act itself.

It's said that the Immaterium was much more neutral before that entire flood of such negative emotions the Chaos Gods feast upon, and the demons were only feral and wild creatures, nothing like the twist monsters we know.
The psykers will still exist when Terra will fall, they'll still fight. Chaos will surely grow for some time, but humans in this galaxy will die in droves, negating the source of emotions. All ravaged planets won't be able to sustain themselves. The dustbin worlds will be forgotten places, the Imperium's population will drop.

Read Legion then, have ya?

The Chaos forces remind me of ecologists. They need pollution to exist. If they "destroy" pollution, they fade out of existence. What the WH40K MW needs is a shit lot of positive emotions, and that can safely be brought to humanity with the UFP terraforming the ravaged worlds and bringing the survivors to a fair and post-scarcity society that already counts many peaceful and wonderful worlds and which will count more after that.

lol The UFP is going to uplift all those worlds in time to stave off Chaos taking over are they? I'm sorry but the UFP doesn't have the ships, manpower or time to stop all the infighting and general jackassery that would happen if the GEoM was killed.

You may as well hope for Emperor Palpatine to suddenly stop being an overconfident nitwit.

The Dude wrote:Actually its more emotion in general, positive or negative. Slaanesh is all about sensation for example, and came about because the Eldar were basically fucking and screwing around 24/7.

It's more than fucking like rabbits. Otherwise my garden is full of followers of Slaanesh. :p
All descriptions I read make Slaneesh a true perversion. It's all about hedonism at any occasion, lust and sheer decadence, lots of torture and pain, either through sex or through death. Death is not just enough by the way, it has to be as much painful as possible. The description of Slaanesh's castle quite perfectly completes this gruesome canvas. Oh and rape obviously brings lots of bonus points.
You'll notice that the harsher and corrupted a society is, the more moral values are destroyed and the more open to such practices it becomes, and the more injustice there is when such crimes are commited.
Good luck trying to fit the fit the UFP with that.

Khorne really doesn't care about your emotional state when you kill someone, only the act itself.

He still enjoys a fuckton of rage, hate and bloodlust apparently. He's probably very tempting to some warriors, notably those who seek revenge and justice without caring about the price to pay. Short of any enormous tragedy then exploited by a political organ boosting its authority with propaganda surfing on such desires, it will have minimal reach to true warriors, especially those who are told not to hate the ennemy, but to respect it. And of course, in times of peace, Khorne is simply negated.

Read Legion then, have ya?

Nope. What does it say? :)

lol The UFP is going to uplift all those worlds in time to stave off Chaos taking over are they? I'm sorry but the UFP doesn't have the ships, manpower or time to stop all the infighting and general jackassery that would happen if the GEoM was killed.

You may as well hope for Emperor Palpatine to suddenly stop being an overconfident nitwit.

Oh no, as I said the UFP would probably bring many worlds to chaos. But the positive aspect of this is that the in fighting and the Chaos forces will finish all those rotten societies off. Chaos, in a way, is like the great purge that grows from corruption to destroy the corruption. There's no corruption to get from Chaos forces after all, since their case is sealed.

Now I may be missing something out here, like the possibility that even with the massive disappearance of the violent, dire, perverted and decadent worlds of humanity, Chaos wouldn't weaken.

Now, with an OP that left all other invasions out, that would also leave Chaos invasions out.