Starfleet Jedi

Well, I got idea from Admiral Breetai on my Numenoreans vs Ewoks thread. How will Numenoreans fare in following battles (Numenoreans are always outnumbered side):

1) Battle of Thermopylae
2) Battle of Marathon
3) Battle of Field of Krbava
4) Battle of Mazinkert
5) Battle of Carrhae
6) Battle of Crecy
7) Siege of Jerusalem (First Crusade)
8) Battle of Agincourt
9) Battle of Verneuil

Picard wrote:
1) Battle of Thermopylae

I assume you mean the historical battle? and not the Frank Miller one? because the comic Persians may actually overwhelm them

problem is the Persians are going to get mowed down like blades of grass by the Numenorian archers who are blatantly superior to any archery in the real world (IIRC I think the description of their range approaches wwII era weaponry in some letters and in the silmarillion I think they're given really sick range too) and their armor and bladed weaponry is gonna be superior to anything the Greeks had..or well anything for along long time they should still go down to the sheer numeric gap but it would mean a great deal more dead Persians then what actually happened

Picard wrote:2) Battle of Marathon

they do even better then the Greeks did

I'll wiki the other battles to brush up on them before giving a good answer..hopefully others can come in here and give some thoughts

cool thread

At Thermopylae I would expect them to lose. They might be impressive archers, but the majority of the Persian army were also archers. Considering the technological level of LoTR, they would likely have a hard tiem warding off thousands of arrows with round shields, kiteshields, open-faced helmets, and chainmail hauberks.

At Marathon the Persians would get crushed.

Carrhae would likely go in favor of the Romans, as they would no longer have the advantage of horse archers and would likely have to engage them in hand to hand with 4-to-1 odds.

Crecy would go in Favor of the Numenorians because they would likely have a comparable unit composition to what the English had, as well as better skill.

Ditto Agincourt.

The siege of Jerusalem would go in favor of the Numenorians, despite the numerical advantage of the crusaders. A LOT of crusaders died in the siege, I would imagine that superhumans like the numenorians would do even better.

Not familiar with the rest.

Aurochs wrote:At Thermopylae I would expect them to lose. They might be impressive archers, but the majority of the Persian army were also archers. Considering the technological level of LoTR, they would likely have a hard tiem warding off thousands of arrows with round shields, kiteshields, open-faced helmets, and chainmail hauberks.

superhuman archers that fire near magical steel arrows over a mile (and by magical steel I mean elvish blades carving through Iron and steel Armor like tissue paper even at one point a five foot thick sheet of said metal..and Numenorean weapons being of close caliber)...can march two hundred miles with out rest and not really feel fatigued and are extremely experienced in fighting numerically superior enemies

one usually has to remember in the first and second ages even Joe blow humans would prolly make Mike Tyson look like a ten year old with decent skills

I'd think 300 Numenorians are gonna loose to a quarter of a million normal humans..they aren't hurin after all (he'd prolly cause a thermopolye win) but they gonna take an obscene amount of them down with them to *leonidas voice*HHEEEELLLL

Romans vs Numenorian soldiers in h2h is gonna result in Romans soldiers having they're limbs torn off in some..cases literally

They might have better arrows and bows, and better skill in hand to hand, but they can't hide behind their shields like the greeks could, so I would expect them to get crushed by sheer volume of arrows. The persians likely wouldn't even bother trying to fight them in hand to hand, since they would be more vulnerable to arrows then the greeks were. Thermopylae plays to the persian strengths in this case.

Numenorians are better then normal humans in many regards-they are superb archers and horsemen, and are extremely long lived. I wouldn't attribute to them the degree of prowess that Breetai does though, Isildur and his bodyguard were killed by orcs, after all. Certainly better then a normal human in battle, they would be the superior of anything the persians or romans could throw at them, but is there any evidence to point to them not dying to arrows, pilum, scorpions, or balista?

Well, except for the fact that Numenoreans had armor that could not be penetrated by Orcish arrows, no. I think they used mithrill in armor. And Numenoreans were well beyond technological level of Middle Earth, so I would expect them to have plate armor.

Aurochs wrote:They might have better arrows and bows, and better skill in hand to hand, but they can't hide behind their shields like the greeks could, so I would expect them to get crushed by sheer volume of arrows

.

arrows that'd bounce off they're armor and physically able to tear off the limbs of people they're fighting?

Aurochs wrote:The persians likely wouldn't even bother trying to fight them in hand to hand, since they would be more vulnerable to arrows then the greeks were. Thermopylae plays to the persian strengths in this case.

no they aren't they're wielding full knight style armor made of vastly improved metallurgy that once allowed a first age human to cut through several feet of solid iron like a knife through butter?

Persian archers I am sure plus numbers will eventually win but these guys are gonna soak a fuckton of arrow fire

Aurochs wrote: I wouldn't attribute to them the degree of prowess that Breetai does though, Isildur and his bodyguard were killed by orcs, after all.

Iilsdur was jumped by orcs and caught off guard and screwed by the ring..they where wielding poisoned arrows which was what did him in poison likely either made by a black Numenorian or Sauron himself-Orc weaponry is shitty for sure but by Numenorian and Gondor and Elf craftmentship standard

not by RL standards IIRC even Orcs made use of steel in some cases as early as the first age

his dad old as he was matched Gil-Galad and other ancient elves in physical prowess and in a battle against Sauron actually managed to over power the maiars body and kill it before dying

Aurochs wrote:Certainly better then a normal human in battle, they would be the superior of anything the persians or romans could throw at them, but is there any evidence to point to them not dying to arrows, pilum, scorpions, or balista?

Aragorn through out the book showed physical prowess superior to any real world human..and the guy was made to look like an absolute joke..by comparison to his ancestors Numenorians are also walking around in armor..that honestly I wouldn't give anything but..modern caliber weaponry good odds at piercing..

a good example of physical strength was Hurin who wielding two Axes one shotted 72 super trolls then hacked apart hundred or orcs until..his Axes melted from the toxicity of they're blood..and he then proceeded to engage the remainder of the army in CQC ripping the limbs off Orcs who attempted to restrain him

Hurin was..probably one of the toughest Humans of the first age and while I've never heard of single Numenorians doing that to armies..they where..vastly superior to all other humans..barring Hurin and Tour

Picard wrote:Well, except for the fact that Numenoreans had armor that could not be penetrated by Orcish arrows, no. I think they used mithrill in armor. And Numenoreans were well beyond technological level of Middle Earth, so I would expect them to have plate armor.

the Elves and Dwarves had plate armor thousands and thousands of years before the Numenoreans came around..and their weaponry could tear apart Iron like it was nothing and never dulled or lost it's potency

hell Dwarfs had functioning gas masks as early as the earliest battles in the first age which was I think close to fourteen or so thousand years before Numenor and Numenorians supposedly surpassed every one but Feanor in craftsmanship

edit they'll loose the pass at thermopyle and some of the others battles but these guys are going to take a very disproportionate amount of enemy down with them

Admiral Breetai wrote:arrows that'd bounce off they're armor and physically able to tear off the limbs of people they're fighting?

Admiral Breetai wrote:no they aren't they're wielding full knight style armor made of vastly improved metallurgy that once allowed a first age human to cut through several feet of solid iron like a knife through butter?

Persian archers I am sure plus numbers will eventually win but these guys are gonna soak a fuckton of arrow fire

I don't think that they ever tear arms off in any of the books. Even mithril is only about as strong as steel in LoTR, Frodo's mail shirt is damaged by a spear thrust. The Numenorians would likely be using steel, well-made steel, but steel nonetheless.

Even with superior metallurgy, their armor and shields will cover less of their bodies then the bronze panoply of a hoplite, which is the prime factor when it comes to missile weaponry.

Admiral Breetai wrote:Iilsdur was jumped by orcs and caught off guard and screwed by the ring..they where wielding poisoned arrows which was what did him in poison likely either made by a black Numenorian or Sauron himself-Orc weaponry is shitty for sure but by Numenorian and Gondor and Elf craftmentship standard

not by RL standards IIRC even Orcs made use of steel in some cases as early as the first age

his dad old as he was matched Gil-Galad and other ancient elves in physical prowess and in a battle against Sauron actually managed to over power the maiars body and kill it before dying

hand-to-hand prowess means little where missiles are involved, as demonstrated by how it managed to get through isildur's armor and kill him. Was poison specifically mentioned? Even if it was, I would doubt that it was made by Sauron or black Numenorians-Sauron was dead at this point, and could not have organized the ambush, and neither black numenorians or sauron himself are known for their poisons. Isildur was a fine swordsman, but his bodyguard were slain by orcs in hand to hand and he himself was killed with orcish arrows. If orcs can do it, so can persian immortals-who are probably significantly more skilled.

Admiral Breetai wrote:Aragorn through out the book showed physical prowess superior to any real world human..and the guy was made to look like an absolute joke..by comparison to his ancestors Numenorians are also walking around in armor..that honestly I wouldn't give anything but..modern caliber weaponry good odds at piercing..

a good example of physical strength was Hurin who wielding two Axes one shotted 72 super trolls then hacked apart hundred or orcs until..his Axes melted from the toxicity of they're blood..and he then proceeded to engage the remainder of the army in CQC ripping the limbs off Orcs who attempted to restrain him

Hurin was..probably one of the toughest Humans of the first age and while I've never heard of single Numenorians doing that to armies..they where..vastly superior to all other humans..barring Hurin and Tour

Taking Hurin as the standard for Numenorian prowess and endurance is very misleading, he represented the pinnacle of Human potential. There are plenty of instances where Numenorian warriors display far lesser prowess, and this scenario calls for Numenorian warriors, not clones of Hurin.

Admiral Breetai wrote:the Elves and Dwarves had plate armor thousands and thousands of years before the Numenoreans came around..and their weaponry could tear apart Iron like it was nothing and never dulled or lost it's potency

hell Dwarfs had functioning gas masks as early as the earliest battles in the first age which was I think close to fourteen or so thousand years before Numenor and Numenorians supposedly surpassed every one but Feanor in craftsmanship

edit they'll loose the pass at thermopyle and some of the others battles but these guys are going to take a very disproportionate amount of enemy down with them

The only mentions of plate armor are vambraces and helmets-this would be consistant with a tech level of the dark ages or early hundred years war, where cuirasses were not used yet. A brigandine, bascinet, splinted greaves, vambraces, gauntlets, and a heater/kite/round shield or similar would be about the most you could reasonably ask for. Something like a chainmail hauberk, barbute, splinted greaves, and a heater/kite/round shield would be far more likely. A suit of Maximilian plate is a bit much, In my opinion.

Dwarves did not use gas masks, they wore metal masks to protect their faces from dragon fire, but this is not the same thing.

Not sure about the iron thing, but mithril can be damaged by orkish weapons, and mithril and galvorn are about as strong as metals get in middle earth, and both of those were not typically associated with humans, but with elves and dwarves.

Aurochs wrote: I don't think that they ever tear arms off in any of the books. Even mithril is only about as strong as steel in LoTR, Frodo's mail shirt is damaged by a spear thrust. The Numenorians would likely be using steel, well-made steel, but steel nonetheless.

they never fought Joe blow humans..in "drown me in bodies numbers" hence the not seeing it of course

I'm not sure where your getting mithril being as strong as steel especially after elves or Numenorians are done with it

I don't know any steel that can damage intangible spirits..with enchantments that can vaporize any other form of weapon..upon contact..or do injury casually to a creature durable enough to eat it into a lake at terminal velocity from a mile or so up

Aurochs wrote:Even with superior metallurgy, their armor and shields will cover less of their bodies then the bronze panoply of a hoplite, which is the prime factor when it comes to missile weaponry.

they'll be covered enough and totally outrange the enemy archers that they'd make such a dent they'd need to come to close quarters combat

Aurochs wrote:hand-to-hand prowess means little where missiles are involved, as demonstrated by how it managed to get through isildur's armor and kill him. Was poison specifically mentioned? Even if it was, I would doubt that it was made by Sauron or black Numenorians-Sauron was dead at this point,

Saurons spirit was just fine and chilling either in Mordor or Dul Gurdor by that point..the ring wraiths and other Numenorians still loyal to the dark lord where conducting the forces of Mordor at that point in time.some Orcish forces where merely running around as guerrilla bands but there was definite ambush

Aurochs wrote: and could not have organized the ambush, and neither black numenorians or sauron himself are known for their poisons.

Sauron was known for being a master torturer and mind rape specialist true but these guys in the first age came up with some of the nastiest toxic crap imaginable

and yeah black Numenorians where known for that kind of stuff as well as other..more degenerate behaviors IIRC

Aurochs wrote: Isildur was a fine swordsman, but his bodyguard were slain by orcs in hand to hand and he himself was killed with orcish arrows. If orcs can do it, so can persian immortals-who are probably significantly more skilled.

Orcs wielding better weaponry..then persians sure and again isildur lost because he was off with the ring..and got shafted

Aurochs wrote: Taking Hurin as the standard for Numenorian prowess and endurance is very misleading, he represented the pinnacle of Human potential. There are plenty of instances where Numenorian warriors display far lesser prowess, and this scenario calls for Numenorian warriors, not clones of Hurin.

Hurins kid..was likely the strongest human

my point was more that even men not given the genetic lottery that Numenorians had where capable of amazing and fantastical things

marching two hundred plus miles inside of I think it was eight hours for example

Aurochs wrote: The only mentions of plate armor are vambraces and helmets-this would be consistant with a tech level of the dark ages or early hundred years war, where cuirasses were not used yet. A brigandine, bascinet, splinted greaves, vambraces, gauntlets, and a heater/kite/round shield or similar would be about the most you could reasonably ask for. Something like a chainmail hauberk, barbute, splinted greaves, and a heater/kite/round shield would be far more likely. A suit of Maximilian plate is a bit much, In my opinion.

Fingolfin Feanor and Turgon made use of full plate armor...and plate armor strong enough to take blows from a hammer that wrecked up the landscape TBH...and Turgon iirc as well as those under his command

Hurin had the Dragon helm and theres allot of other instances of sophisticated armor

Aurochs wrote:Dwarves did not use gas masks, they wore metal masks to protect their faces from dragon fire, but this is not the same thing.

actually they did they where scary looking samurai style apparently but they where gas masks none the less..theres one instance of a Dwarf Lord dying from poison belched out of a dragons mouth..an Elf as well at one point IIRC and one instance of one even going so far as preventing toxic blood from getting in some ones mouth when a wingless Drake was virtually ontop of him when he got stabbed

Aurochs wrote:Not sure about the iron thing, but mithril can be damaged by orkish weapons, and mithril and galvorn are about as strong as metals get in middle earth, and both of those were not typically associated with humans, but with elves and dwarves.

properly forged Mithril can again cut through iron like butter..and no sell a spear wielded by a super humanly strong beserker troll..and cut through its skin when even Gondor crafted Steel/Iron knicked against it's hide

that speaks to a superior metallurgic knowledge then what we had until relatively recently

Aurochs wrote:Frodo's mail shirt is damaged by a spear thrust.

No, it is not. Shirt was undamaged, but its links hurt Frodo.

...seriously?

Sorry, but the Numenoreans win the entire guantlet. We're talking about literally superhuman people with steel longbows, nigh invincible wall making, early gunpowder, steam engines and the fact that they punked Sauron's army with ease.

Picard wrote:

Aurochs wrote:Frodo's mail shirt is damaged by a spear thrust.

No, it is not. Shirt was undamaged, but its links hurt Frodo.

Exactly, Frofo was hurt by the immense kinetic energy of the impact, but both in the book and in the movie his chirt didn't even have a scratch...

Praeothmin wrote:Exactly, Frofo was hurt by the immense kinetic energy of the impact, but both in the book and in the movie his chirt didn't even have a scratch...

if I remember right he had cracked or bruised ribs and he pulled a bilbo and cried about how his beloved buttons got all messed up

basically the impression one gets is bad ass armor can protect you but unless your as bad ass as a hero or a first or second age resident in terms of super human stats you can still get turned into sentient jelly...with a really pretty case

If I'm not wrong, numenoreans basically had plate armor, where each individual plate was forged from two separate plates - steel one on top, and mithrill one underneath it. I don't remember where I got it from, thought, so take it with grain of salt.

Picard wrote:If I'm not wrong, numenoreans basically had plate armor, where each individual plate was forged from two separate plates - steel one on top, and mithrill one underneath it. I don't remember where I got it from, thought, so take it with grain of salt.

it's worth noting when they say "steel" or metal in general they usually refer to what ever insane stuff their metallurgy produces and wouldn't be comparable to RL metal given it's mystical properties but I also remember hearing that

then again their bows where made of flexible steel that could hurl arrows over distances that break modern sniper records (by about a mile IIRC some elf "tribes" were even worse)