Star Wars and Star Trek acceleration (no EU, please)

[Picard]

So, I advise you to abandon this topic and move on to a more fruitful one.

Well, I got what I wanted.

Thanks!

[2046]

So, I advise you to abandon this topic and move on to a more fruitful one.

Well, I got what I wanted.

Thanks!

That line was, of course, directed at SWST. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Picard]

You were unclear. You did not quote him, and last post before you posted was mine; so, next time either quote, or put "@poster name" at beginning of post.

[2046]

Easy, killer.

[Picard]

Yay, I was just wondering if I was too harsh with response. But I don't like going around the hill if I can drill throught it.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

The quote:

The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go.

1. At no point does this contradict the events observed in the movie; we as an audience are seen the ISD's after they have already arrived, but they obviously moved out of the planet in order to do this. The fact that we are not shown this is irrelevant.


2. The quote denies any possibility of a microjump haven been used.

3. The quote is further supported by an earlier scene in the movie, when Palpatine orders Vader to move the imperial fleet to the "far side of Endor".


So they traveled around 25000 kilometers in under a minute; disregarding the fact that Endor is circular, they would have had to accelerate at around 28 kilometers per second sq.

If the Executor was made out of iron and 10% solid, it would mass over thirty trillion kilograms. To accelerate at 28 km/sec^2 would require around 8 * 10^21 watts of reactor power alone, as a conservative calculation that completely ignores the fact that Endor is round.



And this is hardly the only example of acceleration feats in Wars that requires astronomical amounts of power. I hate to parrot other websites, but:

http://www.scifights.net/ics.mov

For example; we can look at the Geonosis incident. Dooku passes Geonosis's rings in the time that it takes for Yoda to pick up his cane, and for a concerned Padme to rush in and aid her boyfriend and Obi Wan. Even if it took her 20 seconds to do this; which is quite ridiculous, Dooku's sailship accelerated by as much as 5,000 Gs. Doing the math, it scales to ICS yields.

Mind you, his assistant is clearly seen pushing a throttle, so there is no problem with ships being camera shy here.

[Picard]

Or they simply made a tactical jump... considering that we don't see them moving from both sides of Endor... rather, sitting at one side of Endor.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Or they simply made a tactical jump... considering that we don't see them moving from both sides of Endor... rather, sitting at one side of Endor.

No, read the quote:

The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go.

[Mike DiCenso]

Except that the RoTJ novelization quote is somewhat questionable since there was no pincher movement by the Imperial fleet, nor it's starfighters as far as the movie depictions are concerned.
-Mike

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Except that the RoTJ novelization quote is somewhat questionable since there was no pincher movement by the Imperial fleet, nor it's starfighters as far as the movie depictions are concerned.
-Mike

Obviously, the fleet changed its mind, or the assumption that they were moving out to encircle the Rebel fleet was from the perspective of the Alliance. There is no irreconcilable contradiction here, and since we are using only the EU, microjumps do not exist.

Nor is the Geonosis acceleration feat hampered by any possibility of a microjump, or the observation of the X wings passing half of Yavin Prime within a single shot of six seconds.

In fact, going by only primary canon, there is a host of acceleration feats alone implying stellar level reactor power, and nothing implying that magical mass lightening technology (which does not include intertial dampening, or anti-gravity) exists. Perhaps "implying" is too conservative of a word; how the hell do you counter the Geonosis incident?

[Picard]

and since we are using only the EU,

Ehm.

And it is only logical that something that can jump one thousand light years will be able to do same for twenty thousand kilometers. Unless directly stated, of course.

No, read the quote:

Quote is outranked (deleted, in a sense) by the movie. Also, in TESB see Falcon being unable to make such acceleration even on full afterburner, and ISDs are completely unable to avoid collision in same movie.

On the other hand, we have Geonosis, where we don't know amount of time that passed (even five minutes would allow for acceleration of 40 000 m/s^2, max, and for ship far less massive than ISD; ten seconds - 1 200 000 m/s^2), and Endor, where we don't know how long it took, wether they started to move into position while Rebel fleet was still in hyperspace etc.

Regarding X-wings, we don't know how long it took them to achieve it, and even if we take one to five minutes, we get 230 000 to 1 000 000 m/s^2. It couldn't take less, because pilots had to have at least one or two minutes to report, and they never were far from Yavin.

Of course, it is possible that Star Wars ships can get accelerations in few million m/s^2. But Star Trek ships can do the same - in "Relics", Jenolan closes 500 000 km within few seconds (up to 15 s est, based on rate at witch hatch was closing), which gives 33 million meters per second, for acceleration of 4 444 444 m/s^2 minimum. Refit Enterprise in ST:TMP went from Eart to Jupiter in 1.8 hours; Minimum distance between Earth and Jupiter is 588 million kilometers, which gives us average speed of 326 666 667 kilometers per hour. Maximum speed should be (at Jupiter) 653 333 333 kilometers per hour, resulting in acceleration of exactly 362 962 963 km/h^2, or 100 823 045.3 m/s^2.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

and since we are using only the EU,

Ehm.

And it is only logical that something that can jump one thousand light years will be able to do same for twenty thousand kilometers. Unless directly stated, of course.

Actually, this is incorrect; being able to use one's hyperdrive to only jump a thousandth of an astronomical unit would require an enormous amount of precision and computational capabilities, but it’s completely irrelevant anyhow. Ships cannot jump inside a gravity well (ANH novel), and none of this would counter the observed instance of Rebel X wings traversing half of Yavin Prime in six seconds, with no scene cuts.

Quote is outranked (deleted, in a sense) by the movie.

Even if this were true, nothing in primary canon, as we are using here, indicates that micro-jumps exist; the fact that they are not used in the various situations that they would have been life saving suggests that they do not. In which case, the Executor and its accompanying ISDs would have to had accelerated around Endor to extreme velocities, necessitating stellar amounts of power.

Also, in TESB see Falcon being unable to make such acceleration even on full afterburner, and ISDs are completely unable to avoid collision in same movie.

Tactical acceleration is clearly inferior to operational or strategic acceleration; this is as true for Star Trek as it is for Star Wars, and the instances of lesser acceleration do not magically nullify the numerous instances of higher ones.

On the other hand, we have Geonosis, where we don't know amount of time that passed (even five minutes would allow for acceleration of 40 000 m/s^2, max, and for ship far less massive than ISD; ten seconds - 1 200 000 m/s^2),

Bullshit. Did Yoda wait for five minutes to pick up his cane? Even more importantly, did Padme wait for five minutes to aid a severely wounded Anakin and Obi Wan?

and Endor, where we don't know how long it took, wether they started to move into position while Rebel fleet was still in hyperspace etc.

I already addressed this, once again.

Regarding X-wings, we don't know how long it took them to achieve it, and even if we take one to five minutes, we get 230 000 to 1 000 000 m/s^2. It couldn't take less, because pilots had to have at least one or two minutes to report, and they never were far from Yavin.

It couldn’t have taken that long. They only had from Yavin IV to the side of Yavin Prime to accelerate.

Of course, it is possible that Star Wars ships can get accelerations in few million m/s^2. But Star Trek ships can do the same - in "Relics", Jenolan closes 500 000 km within few seconds (up to 15 s est, based on rate at witch hatch was closing), which gives 33 million meters per second, for acceleration of 4 444 444 m/s^2 minimum. Refit Enterprise in ST:TMP went from Eart to Jupiter in 1.8 hours; Minimum distance between Earth and Jupiter is 588 million kilometers, which gives us average speed of 326 666 667 kilometers per hour. Maximum speed should be (at Jupiter) 653 333 333 kilometers per hour, resulting in acceleration of exactly 362 962 963 km/h^2, or 100 823 045.3 m/s^2.

Except that impulse engines can go warp. They aren’t conventional at all. There is a reason why conventional thrusters are several orders of magnitude less powerful.

[Picard]

Tactical acceleration is clearly inferior to operational or strategic acceleration; this is as true for Star Trek as it is for Star Wars, and the instances of lesser acceleration do not magically nullify the numerous instances of higher ones.

You said it yourself. Just the fact that something can be used doesn't mean it can be used in combat.

Bullshit. Did Yoda wait for five minutes to pick up his cane? Even more importantly, did Padme wait for five minutes to aid a severely wounded Anakin and Obi Wan?

And why you think I included estimate for ten seconds?

It couldn’t have taken that long. They only had from Yavin IV to the side of Yavin Prime to accelerate.

Again, they had to have time to finish reporting and for Red leader to say what he had.

Except that impulse engines can go warp. They aren’t conventional at all. There is a reason why conventional thrusters are several orders of magnitude less powerful.

Conventional thrusters are used only for high-precision manouvers, so they don't have to be powerful. For normal sublight maneuvers, impulse engines are used.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

You said it yourself. Just the fact that something can be used doesn't mean it can be used in combat.

1. Except that they do use it in combat. Endor, Yavin; it's used in combat all the time. It isn't always used on a very minute, starfighter scale level, but to say that SW never uses its incredible acceleration during crucial moments is completely false; but it isn't false for me to claim the same in reverse.

2. None of this refutes the engine power, and subsequently reactor power, that can be derived from such events.

And why you think I included estimate for ten seconds?

Your estimate for five minutes is completely irrelevant. Your estimate for ten seconds proves my point.

Again, they had to have time to finish reporting and for Red leader to say what he had.

Which isn't that long at all. By the acceleration figures posted on your page, it would have taken them days or more to accelerate to such speeds.

Conventional thrusters are used only for high-precision manouvers, so they don't have to be powerful. For normal sublight maneuvers, impulse engines are used.

Except that impulse engines can. Go. To. Warp. They aren't conventional, and they are never used effectively in combat situations.

[Picard]

You said it yourself. Just the fact that something can be used doesn't mean it can be used in combat.

1. Except that they do use it in combat. Endor, Yavin; it's used in combat all the time. It isn't always used on a very minute, starfighter scale level, but to say that SW never uses its incredible acceleration during crucial moments is completely false; but it isn't false for me to claim the same in reverse.

They use it, at best, for transit. Not during combat itself.

2. None of this refutes the engine power, and subsequently reactor power, that can be derived from such events.

Such as? Besides, if you want to insist, you've got ships destroyed by sub-kiloton weapons in RotS, destroyed by kiloton-level asteroid impacts, and two ISDs completely unable to avoid collision.

Your estimate for five minutes is completely irrelevant. Your estimate for ten seconds proves my point.

Again, they had to have time to finish reporting and for Red leader to say what he had.

Which isn't that long at all. By the acceleration figures posted on your page, it would have taken them days or more to accelerate to such speeds.

I don't remember doing estimates for fighters.

Conventional thrusters are used only for high-precision manouvers, so they don't have to be powerful. For normal sublight maneuvers, impulse engines are used.

Except that impulse engines can. Go. To. Warp. They aren't conventional, and they are never used effectively in combat situations.

Impulse engines are ALWAYS used, except for low-speed high-precision maneuvers.