Starfleet Jedi

My new article dealing with blasters: http://www.galacticempirewars.com/blasters

Firmus Piett wrote:My new article dealing with blasters: http://www.galacticempirewars.com/blasters

1) Blasters are not Bazooka like in effect. They are more similar to shotgun or paw-20 rounds.

Bazooka
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRPsxgOozqk

PAW-20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu87AxzBf3Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke5oMcn_5X4

Frag-12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQYp9fOJ9VI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNPGvPa9NeQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

2) You never show anyone changing the settings on blasters, or have someone talk about changing the settings.

3) All 6 videos are the same setting as the only targets are personnel, and in no scene do they change settings save to go from stun to kill even when going to a higher setting is required to take down the target.

4) No bulkheads are damaged by blasters in ANH, and the quotes you have a not canon do to not appearing in the movies.

5) LL 30 Blaster video shows the area the trooper was standing "on" was already detaching from the ceiling.

The peaces that fell seem to be little bigger then a manhole cover, and are nowhere near as big as Han Solo.

There is no reason to assume insulation weighs tons when it is likely used for noise canceling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultralight_material
http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2014/new-ultr ... loped-0619
http://www.gizmag.com/llnl-ultralight-m ... ial/32589/

6) You do not need to add much energy to make things fall down if they art already unstable as all your high end examples are.

Power settings must exist on blasters.

Otherwise you are denying what happened on the screen, resulting in our heroes getting killed in A New Hope, as they find their blasters inadequate for blasting wookie sized holes into metal grates, and instead only succeed in making finger tip sized hole instead...

The firepower in those six videos varied several orders of magnitude in destructive effect. The most powerful examples are autocannon / bazooka like in effect: http://www.galacticempirewars.com/blasters-2

Your claim that they are "all the same power setting" is absurd; it's like saying a modern handgun is the same power as an autocannon. It's just wrong.

Variable power settings are the only rational explanation for specific blasters having variable destructive capacity. The least powerful shots can put a fingertip sized scorch mark on a wall, whereas the highest settings can reduce a chest sized amount of wall to rubble.

My two cents on this matter. Blasters in Star Wars obviously have different power capacities, but, like real life firearms, I think a lot of those variances result from different arms manufacturers and ammunition types. To support the idea of broad power setting options in a single weapon, we need to see the same gun produce all those different effects, preferably all in the same episode or movie. For example, I've long gotten the impression that Han's DL-44 blaster is a more powerful, more expensive weapon than most, something like the Star Wars equivalent to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum. Moving on to the scenes of holes being put in the walls at Bespin, notice Boba's gun makes a bigger hole than the storm troopers'.
By itself, A New Hope has some examples that support higher blaster fire power, and got weaker as the movies progressed. By the battle of Endor, the poor stormies may well have been better off with BB guns... OK, thats exaggerating, but still. Even that can have an in universe explanation though. The storm troopers rifles seem to me to represent the rock bottom of needed firepower, they have enough power to kill most of the beings and droids the Empire thinks they are likely to encounter, and are probably cheap. Even the apparent decrease in firepower over the course of the films could represent budget cuts and lower yield weapons. After all, the real life Sterling SMG, upon which the Imperials E-11 is based, uses common (and cheap) 9mm rounds.

The biggest differences I saw in firepower were all from different weapon types. We couldn't see how the storm troopers breached the bulkhead, we also don't know the type of material Cloud Cities walls were made of. It stands to reason a floating civilian city isn't going to stand up to the same punishment as a military bunker, and a 15 cm wide crater in a mystery wall doesn't automatically translate into 15 cm worth of gory splat on a human body. I might also add, that if the DC-15 can indeed select different levels of fire power, why would the firing squad use armor piercing rounds on unarmored clone prisoners?

In the end, considering that blasters can switch between stun and lethal settings, and that different power capacities exist, even Han's comment on Hoth, stating that he "didn't blast it that hard," referring to the probe droid's self destruct device, power selections are possible, but I'm not sold on the idea that clones DC-15's and Imperials E-11's have a 3rd option. As more visuals and dialogue come in with SW: Rebels, maybe new evidence will indicate otherwise. Until then, I think the storm troopers only have as much firepower as deemed necessary by the bean counters who budget their blaster packs.

Darth Spock wrote:My two cents on this matter. Blasters in Star Wars obviously have different power capacities, but, like real life firearms, I think a lot of those variances result from different arms manufacturers and ammunition types. To support the idea of broad power setting options in a single weapon, we need to see the same gun produce all those different effects, preferably all in the same episode or movie. For example, I've long gotten the impression that Han's DL-44 blaster is a more powerful, more expensive weapon than most, something like the Star Wars equivalent to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum. Moving on to the scenes of holes being put in the walls at Bespin, notice Boba's gun makes a bigger hole than the storm troopers'.
By itself, A New Hope has some examples that support higher blaster fire power, and got weaker as the movies progressed. By the battle of Endor, the poor stormies may well have been better off with BB guns... OK, thats exaggerating, but still. Even that can have an in universe explanation though. The storm troopers rifles seem to me to represent the rock bottom of needed firepower, they have enough power to kill most of the beings and droids the Empire thinks they are likely to encounter, and are probably cheap. Even the apparent decrease in firepower over the course of the films could represent budget cuts and lower yield weapons. After all, the real life Sterling SMG, upon which the Imperials E-11 is based, uses common (and cheap) 9mm rounds.

The idea that the bolt that hit Leia was miraculously faulty, although being an appeal to extreme statistical odds, does make sense. Be it the Will of the Force or just that crappy ammo clip being of dubious quality, or that particular stormie having forgotten to clean his weapon properly... just sheer potato luck, but I kinda like this idea.
This kind of silly coincidence happens to many times in real life. The right/wrong thing at the exaxt right/wrong moment.

The biggest differences I saw in firepower were all from different weapon types. We couldn't see how the storm troopers breached the bulkhead, we also don't know the type of material Cloud Cities walls were made of. It stands to reason a floating civilian city isn't going to stand up to the same punishment as a military bunker, and a 15 cm wide crater in a mystery wall doesn't automatically translate into 15 cm worth of gory splat on a human body.

Would be a fair point but it actually should. I don't picture a meatbag faring better than a wall, even if said wall is made of styrofoam. I mean, yes, it could actually be (hardened?) foam that's used to pad walls inside (the station would certainly gain a lot at being the lighter possible), while the supporting frame would be rather sturdy, but still, I'd expect Boba's weapons to leave very nasty holes in someone's abdomen.

I might also add, that if the DC-15 can indeed select different levels of fire power, why would the firing squad use armor piercing rounds on unarmored clone prisoners?

In the end, considering that blasters can switch between stun and lethal settings, and that different power capacities exist, even Han's comment on Hoth, stating that he "didn't blast it that hard," referring to the probe droid's self destruct device, power selections are possible, but I'm not sold on the idea that clones DC-15's and Imperials E-11's have a 3rd option. As more visuals and dialogue come in with SW: Rebels, maybe new evidence will indicate otherwise. Until then, I think the storm troopers only have as much firepower as deemed necessary by the bean counters who budget their blaster packs.

If anything, the third option would be rate of fire.

Mode 1: the stun mode, would be semi auto.
Mode 2: first normal mode, would be semi auto.
Mode 3: second normal mode, allowing for short bursts, likely full auto (as long as you keep the button pressed).

Sometimes, in the heat of action, many troopers would forget to switch back to the appropriate mode.
For example, would an imperial standard stormtrooper rifle have a mode that consumes more energy from the clip itself to provide greater precision? Like, for each two or three shots, you need to consume one extra "shot" to provide energy and focus to the force field stabilizers?

Either this stabilizing feature would be on in mode 2 to provide very accurate semi-auto shots. Or it would activate in mode 3 to try to compensate the automatic fire. Well, something along those lines.
While this would allow precise shooting, since it would consume an inordinate amount of energy, most troopers wouldn't use the firing mode for which this stabilizing feature auto-activates.

Darth Spock wrote: I think a lot of those variances result from different arms manufacturers and ammunition types. To support the idea of broad power setting options in a single weapon, we need to see the same gun produce all those different effects, preferably all in the same episode or movie.

This happens. A number of time actually. Here's a few examples...

DL44 in ANH
Goes from putting small hole in front and back of Greedo to blasting chest sized amounts of wall into debris.
Same movie same gun.

E11 in ANH
Goes from putting small scorch marks on metal and people to wookie sized hole in metal grate.
Same movie, same gun.

E11 in ESB
Goes from putting tiny scorch marks on Bespin wall to grapefruit sized holes in wall.
Same movie, same model of gun, different E11's used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qms-9fxT6Vo

Zygerrian blasters in Clone Wars
Go from doing little typical scorch marks to grenade like explosiveness when hitting city walls made of stone. I do not host the clip of low powered blasts hitting stone on my channel or website, but it does occur.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRZ6C8tdPYE

Weequy blaster pistol in Clone Wars
Goes from typical low energy scorch marks to blasting manhole sized craters into walls.

Darth Spock wrote:For example, I've long gotten the impression that Han's DL-44 blaster is a more powerful, more expensive weapon than most, something like the Star Wars equivalent to Dirty Harry's .44 Magnum.

A common impression and popular misconception. The DL44 demonstrates very high firepower on the walls, but other pistols and larger carbines have demonstrated similar firepower also. The Weequay blaster pistol and DC15S carbine are both examples which have a similar (or potentially even greater) destructive capacity. Check out the relevent sections on my site to see what they can do
http://www.galacticempirewars.com/blasters
http://www.galacticempirewars.com/blasters-2

Darth Spock wrote: The biggest differences I saw in firepower were all from different weapon types.

The biggest differences come from the same weapon types.

DL44
E11
DC15S
Zygerrian
Weequay

They all go from putting small holes in soft fleshy targets to putting chest sized holes or craters in hard rocky targets and walls or metal surfaces and creating explosions.

You make interesting claims but measuring the entire surface area of the biggest piece of wall clipped off by Han's blaster is not going to work. It clearly was fragile. There's no way a shot that had to go through the front surface of the wall before even detonating "inside" the surface could dig out a nice piece of undamaged wall in such a fashion without said piece almost already asking to fall by itself.
If you do masonry, you'll get plenty of examples of this, with the first inch or so of material easily removed in wide bits simply by hitting with a wedge or a pointy hammer at the right angle.

Also, as said previously, bazookas don't do that kind of damage. I'm talking about the nature of it, not the magnitude. Unless you're thinking about Worf's bazooka :P
Besides, as per the TESB novelization, bazooka like weapons are precisely, exactly large ones, fed with their own power pack. See the E-web heavy gun.

You also have good evidence of some higher yields from the movies though, probably enough to claim a higher yield setting (perhaps one rarely used since it must consume a hell lot of energy), unfortunately the rest, say most of it, comes from TCW.
It's a show where you can get anything. Even CIS tanks incapable of blasting down miserably thin trees with their main guns. TCW is nonsense, it's utterly driven by plot fiat and special effects suffer a lot from it.
Now, what TCW conveys as an idea is that there seem to be higher settings since the show wants the audience to understand that there can be more damage done than what is barely enough to get through body armour.
The trouble being that it's TCW here, which is wildly inconsistent and cartoonish, and that we never ever see the people switching settings. It's such a bad situation that it seems the setting automatically selects itself, every single time, like if the user could communicate with the weapon via telepathy. Although this problem also existed with Solo's gun in ANH. Mind you, for many of these cases, we could claim that the guns were already set on the most powerful firepower setting. Solo hardly gets a chance to shoot his gun again until TESB, while shooting down mynocks and later on, against Vader. None of which seem to involve impressive displays of firepower. Well in the first case killing monsters without damaging the ship wouldn't require lots of firepower I guess, and against Vader's tricks, you can't tell.

Your assumptions' about Han's and Luke's use of a rifle are rather wild. This was a desperate situation. There's nothing to draw from that other than they'd have been shooting at that door until something would happen.
Besides, watch the movie. Solo was aiming at the lock.
Luke seems to have a habit at shooting at locks and panels. He's a country guy after all. :D

It's actually interesting that the bolt did make an explosion but failed to do damage to the door, and that each subsequent bounce off the walls made another blinding explosion, before the bolt went dying somewhere.

As for the imperial troops getting through the elevator door, that's such an old claim it's a shame you try to pull it off again. You have zero proof whatsoever that the stormies used a rifle for that. If anything, they'd have more reasons to use some kind of shaped charge explosive, since they were sitting in that damn elevator themselves and the more energy aimed at the door, the better.
And here's a nice lump of irony for you: as part of your demonstration, the real life example you provide is a video of... an "explosive breaching exercise".
This alone should have been a solid enough clue, dontcha think?

And it's only getting worse:

The novelization of Star Wars: A New Hope described Imperial stormtroopers blasting their way through a metal wall: "Luke and Leia had started back up the corridor when a series of blinding explosion ripped the walkway ahead of them. Several troopers had tried coming through the elevator, only to be crisped one after another by Chewbacca. Disdaining the elevators, they had blasted a gaping hole through a wall. The opening was too large for Solo and the Wookie to cover completely. In twos and threes, the Imperials were working their way into the detention block."

It never says the troopers blasted that wall with one of their rifles. Also, the ealier blinding explosions were most likely caused by Chewie's own shots as he was gunning down any soldier coming through, and we have no data about the damage caused then.
Most akin to the explosions seen inside Tantive IV: they don't leave big holes but surely make lots of noise, light and smoke.

And it's noteworthy that George Lucas himself mentioned "laser pistols" (which became stromtrooper carbines in the final movie) being used to blast through metal doors twice in his fourth edition draft of A New Hope: "Luke stops in front of one of the cells and blasts the door away with his laser pistol. When the smoke clears, Luke sees the dazzling young princess-senator. She had been sleeping and is now looking at him with an uncomprehending look on her face. Luke is stunned by her incredible beauty and stands staring at her with his mouth hanging open."

Didn't happen in the canonical source.
Not to say that blasting the door away might just be a way to say blasting the lock. Again.

The rest, we already covered it on this forum a few months ago: the level of structural damage is totally unproportional to the firepower displayed. The sections shot at already were severely weak. It's astonishingly obvious in the last video of the first page. It's baffling you'd try to push this claim. If anything, the piece of ceiling going down in one huge block after two or three shots landing on it could very well be related to Han Solo's shirmish in Mos Eisley. Hell, this event has more matter going on for it than what you picked from TCW, the later being extremely weak in terms of firepower display.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Would be a fair point but it actually should. I don't picture a meatbag faring better than a wall, even if said wall is made of styrofoam.

Firmus Piett wrote: DL44 in ANH
Goes from putting small hole in front and back of Greedo to blasting chest sized amounts of wall into debris.
Same movie same gun.

E11 in ANH
Goes from putting small scorch marks on metal and people to wookie sized hole in metal grate.
Same movie, same gun.

My point was not that a "meat bag" is tougher than a solid building material, but rather, that living tissue with high fluid content would not respond to a (presumed) thermal weapon with the same "cratering" effect as an unknown solid with presumably low plasticity and an unknown thermal conductivity. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that flesh would require considerably more thermal energy to have a hole blown out of it as large as may occur in a rigid civilian grade building material or ventilation grate, were the heat energy and concussive forces would not be as readily absorbed...

Having blustered all that... I should reiterate that I was already open to the idea of similar classed weapons in Star Wars having a wide variety of potential power outputs. Rather, the examples initially given failed to convince me that the DC-15 and E-11 in particular lacked more than 2 obvious power settings. Firmus Piett, most of the example videos provided left room for doubt in that regard, as Mr. Oragahn already covered in his above post. I will say that the ESB link you provided here:

Firmus Piett wrote: E11 in ESB
Goes from putting tiny scorch marks on Bespin wall to grapefruit sized holes in wall.
Same movie, same model of gun, different E11's used.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qms-9fxT6Vo

would have been far more worthy of inclusion. That reference alone is enough to move my opinion on the matter from "E-11's may have more than 2 settings" to "E-11's probably have more than 2 settings."

To be honest, I've never put so much thought into whether blasters had several power settings as much as I simply looked at the highest, lowest and most typical results and tried to piece them together as a whole. Thinking objectively, the existence of additional power settings provides a way to write off weak observed effects without sacrificing more impressive, however less common power examples. Debate thinking aside, the concept holds logical value though, as there are sufficient examples of blaster firepower which would likely prove excessive and potentially hazardous under certain circumstances, warranting greater control over blaster output.

Seriously though, those last 2 videos you referenced in your post, but not (!?) on your linked page should be your all-stars.

Firmus Piett wrote: Power settings must exist on blasters.

There is a stun setting and a kill setting, but no other settings are shown or talked about at any time

The problem isn't that having multiple settings is impossible, but that they are never shown or stated to be used even if it would mean certain death such as those large clone trooper eating animals on Ryloth.

Firmus Piett wrote: Otherwise you are denying what happened on the screen and having our heroes killed in A New Hope, when they find their blasters inadequate for blasting wookie sized hole into metal grates, and instead only succeed in making finger tip sized hole instead...as is the power demonstrated on humans which you insist is the only power setting besides stun.

Soon after realising they are stuck in the narrow detention bay corridor for good, they are overwhelmed and shot down.

1) There is not enough smoke for the grate to have been vaporized, and that would require multiple shots.

2) The explosion comes from behind the grate, and that means the bolt went through the grate without causing much damage. This means that there really should have been several bolts fired if the scene is to make sense.

3) As I recall the hole seems to get larger between cuts.

4) Even though every character's hands are in clear view, they never change the E-11's settings.

I would simply say that the visual effects and scene are flawed to a point where the event is unquantifiable. It might be useful as an extra data point to support something more concrete, but on its own it is pretty useless in my eyes.

You may want to read what 2046's thoughts on this topic are as well:
http://weblog.st-v-sw.net/2014/08/smoki ... grate.html

+++++

1) Your "E-11 blaster carbine" video does not show cloud City's walls to be solid, but rather hollow, and seemingly made from something that looks like plastic to me..

Firmus Piett wrote: The firepower in those six videos varied several orders of magnitude in destructive effect. Your claim that they are "all the same power setting" is absurd; it's like saying a modern handgun is the same power as an autocannon. It's just wrong.

1) Given the targets are humans or close enough then the settings would logically be similar. We use the common standardized cartridges in the real world do to a balance between range, lethality and magazine size. A 5.56x45 and a 7.62x51

2) You need to stop treating different blaster models as if they are all the same. If an E-11 had the exact same specs as a DC-15 then there would not be an E-11 in the first place.

3) I see no reason to assume the Storm Troopers are so stupid as to dial down their weapons to a point where they are unlikely to kill the target. Really, you are saying that the Empire is too stupid to use its equipment in an intelligent manner.

Storm Trooper: Oh, I have a clear shot at the Rebel commandos taking cover in front of the rear door of the base, I think I'll dial down my blaster so that even if I hit the perfect center of mass it might not be a kill instead of dialing up my weapon so that even a complete miss could be possibly lethal and will have a 100% chance of taking them all out of the fight.

That is the logical conclusion of your claims. There is a problem if the conclusion is the soldier is too stupid ti use equipment in an intelligent way when they have time to think.

4) A modern 9mm handgun could easily cause the cave ins we see in the "DC-15S bazooka like effects" given what is being shot. Cave ins happen on their own remember.

5) You "Zygerrian blaster carbine: bazooka like effects"
A) Your carbine appears to be a pistol.

B) You need to prove the bolt is exploding. We can't see weather or not the bolt causes something else to explode.

C) You need to show that the bolt is not something like a tiny proton torpedo.

Firmus Piett wrote: Power settings are the only rational explanation for specific blasters having demonstrated destructive capacity, which ranges from tiny holez in flesh to grapefruit sized holes in solid walsl (ESB) and even up to manhole sized holes in walls or ceilings (TCW).

1) Different blasters have different capabilities and flaws or everyone would use the exact same gun, but the standard kill will always be about the same just like a 5.56 and a 7.62 are very similar.

2) Your E-11 blaster carbine - new article at website! video shows Cloud City to have hollow walls, and a thin metal door was enough to contain Luke.

3) Causing unstable structures to fall is unquantifiable. I really suggest you watch the last episode of Ghost Mine so you can see how little it actually takes to cause a massive cave in. Relatively minor changes in air pressure can cause massive cave-ins in old places.

4) I think poor maintenance and poor build quality and the force being with or against someone can explain why blasters randomly have power surges just as readily as your unsupported claim of variable yield. The Empire was always seemed strapped for cash after all, and it makes more sense then everyone being too dumb to live.

Lucky, I agree with most of your points, and while I understand your comments are primarily directed at Firmus Piett, there's a couple of points I disagree with myself:

Lucky wrote:5) You "Zygerrian blaster carbine: bazooka like effects"
A) Your carbine appears to be a pistol.

B) You need to prove the bolt is exploding. We can't see weather or not the bolt causes something else to explode.

C) You need to show that the bolt is not something like a tiny proton torpedo.

A) ...
B) I thought of that too, and while the angle prevents a perfect conclusion from being drawn, I think its pretty safe to say the bolt hit the floor.
C) Another true point, in case he was actually firing something akin to a rifle grenade. Still there was nothing special attached or configured to that gun that we could tell. It's possible it's simply a matter of distinct ammo type being used. Swapping clips is not the same as flipping a switch, but it does open up possibilities. On an aside, this does not necessarily reflect the capabilities of the E-11 or DC-15 either, but I recall old (low, now un-canon) sources indicated some blasters actually could launch projectiles, the Wookiee bowcaster's quarrel being the most notable example.

Lucky wrote:2) Your E-11 blaster carbine - new article at website! video shows Cloud City to have hollow walls, and a thin metal door was enough to contain Luke.

I really have to disagree with this point. I by no means believe that Cloud City's walls are super strong, but I don't see any evidence that they are hollow. All the cratering shots we see show a white surfaced material, with a roughly conical blackish crater, sometimes still smoldering at the center. Now whether this black is another material behind a white finished surface, or if it is merely the result of scorching in a basically solid material is hard to tell.
As for Luke's being contained behind a thin metal door, yeah, I never even considered his using his blaster to force his way through as being a valid tactic. But then I never considered him using his lightsaber to do so either, and there's little doubt as to its abilities in that regard. So valid or not, it isn't exactly conclusive.

Darth Spock wrote: A) ...

Maybe it's the video quality, but i didn't realize the blaster in question was one of these.

Darth Spock wrote: B) I thought of that too, and while the angle prevents a perfect conclusion from being drawn, I think its pretty safe to say the bolt hit the floor.

But it looks like the shooter may be aiming at something on or in the floor.

If this model of blaster could reliably fire like that then the Jedi would be more or less defenseless even with their lightsabers because the blast radius is so large. Given we see this model of blaster used at other times in the same scene, shouldn't we want the largest sample size rather then simply cherry pick the sample that is least quantifiable?

Darth Spock wrote: C) Another true point, in case he was actually firing something akin to a rifle grenade. Still there was nothing special attached or configured to that gun that we could tell. It's possible it's simply a matter of distinct ammo type being used. Swapping clips is not the same as flipping a switch, but it does open up possibilities. On an aside, this does not necessarily reflect the capabilities of the E-11 or DC-15 either, but I recall old (low, now un-canon) sources indicated some blasters actually could launch projectiles, the Wookiee bowcaster's quarrel being the most notable example.

1) The model of blaster used by the Zygerrians looks like it may have some sort of under barrel weapon such as a grenade launcher.

The big problem is that this model is used by several people in the same scene, but the video focuses on a single shot, and that is a problem with the videos in general as the seem to lack context and the sample size is small.

2) Each model of blaster should be analyzed individually. It's like comparing an H&K 416, H&K 417, AK-47, and AK-74 only there are likely larger differences.

3) In Episode 4 A New Hope you can see E-11 ejecting casings at times.

Darth Spock wrote: I really have to disagree with this point. I by no means believe that Cloud City's walls are super strong, but I don't see any evidence that they are hollow. All the cratering shots we see show a white surfaced material, with a roughly conical blackish crater, sometimes still smoldering at the center. Now whether this black is another material behind a white finished surface, or if it is merely the result of scorching in a basically solid material is hard to tell.

Perhaps you are correct. I'd have to see a screen cap with the colors inverted to be sure. It kind of looks like the flame is inside the wall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qms-9fxT6Vo
The stills at 0:23 seem to show that not all the walls of Cloud City are created equal rather then support settings.

Darth Spock wrote: As for Luke's being contained behind a thin metal door, yeah, I never even considered his using his blaster to force his way through as being a valid tactic. But then I never considered him using his lightsaber to do so either, and there's little doubt as to its abilities in that regard. So valid or not, it isn't exactly conclusive.

Well, it is specifically written into the script that a relatively thin metal door is too much, but then Cloud City has lightsaber proof guard rails, but the railings may be VFX goofs.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: A) ...

Maybe it's the video quality, but i didn't realize the blaster in question was one of these.

Well, whatever it's called, a carbine, a pistol, a tooti-fruti-deatomizing hoopty-doo. It's just semantics for our purposes here. And I suck at technical terms.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: B) I thought of that too, and while the angle prevents a perfect conclusion from being drawn, I think its pretty safe to say the bolt hit the floor.

But it looks like the shooter may be aiming at something on or in the floor.

If this model of blaster could reliably fire like that then the Jedi would be more or less defenseless even with their lightsabers because the blast radius is so large. Given we see this model of blaster used at other times in the same scene, shouldn't we want the largest sample size rather then simply cherry pick the sample that is least quantifiable?

Yup, but the reference here was to support the idea of adjustable yields for hand weapons, not to say a blaster is a grenade launcher. It is true that this is an out lier, and your point brings the example under reasonable doubt, but it isn't completely dis-proven either. Cinematically, they generally like to show fancy shooting/tactics like setting off a bomb with a gun shot, and that he uses one gun to make the blast, and the other to shoot a guy in the chest at close range, gives the distinct possibility of two separate ammo types being used, and in the same model weapon. Still, I wouldn't want to hang my hat on that lone scene to "prove" that blasters have multiple settings.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: C) Another true point, in case he was actually firing something akin to a rifle grenade. Still there was nothing special attached or configured to that gun that we could tell. It's possible it's simply a matter of distinct ammo type being used. Swapping clips is not the same as flipping a switch, but it does open up possibilities. On an aside, this does not necessarily reflect the capabilities of the E-11 or DC-15 either, but I recall old (low, now un-canon) sources indicated some blasters actually could launch projectiles, the Wookiee bowcaster's quarrel being the most notable example.

1) The model of blaster used by the Zygerrians looks like it may have some sort of under barrel weapon such as a grenade launcher.

The big problem is that this model is used by several people in the same scene, but the video focuses on a single shot, and that is a problem with the videos in general as the seem to lack context and the sample size is small.

2) Each model of blaster should be analyzed individually. It's like comparing an H&K 416, H&K 417, AK-47, and AK-74 only there are likely larger differences.

3) In Episode 4 A New Hope you can see E-11 ejecting casings at times.

1) A good observation, and if a more powerful round is being launched from a separate emitter, that would put a serious dent in this being an example of adjustable yield, let alone one available at the flip of a switch.

2) That was my biggest problem with the article as well. The video of Zygerrian blaster is one of the better examples, and you make valid points as to that video's reliability as solid evidence of blaster settings.

3) Haha! Yes, I've seen those too, always amuses me. The actors used blanks during filming, and indeed the ejected casings can be seen at times. Whether this reflects a similar technology as that employed by the large Separatist guns ejecting shell casings on their ships is something I've wondered. This doesn't really put a hard limit on the firepower of blasters though. Different rated "casings" could effect blaster performance, though it is true such a scenario would reduce the range of settings available by the flick of a switch.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: I really have to disagree with this point. I by no means believe that Cloud City's walls are super strong, but I don't see any evidence that they are hollow. All the cratering shots we see show a white surfaced material, with a roughly conical blackish crater, sometimes still smoldering at the center. Now whether this black is another material behind a white finished surface, or if it is merely the result of scorching in a basically solid material is hard to tell.

Perhaps you are correct. I'd have to see a screen cap with the colors inverted to be sure. It kind of looks like the flame is inside the wall

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qms-9fxT6Vo
The stills at 0:23 seem to show that not all the walls of Cloud City are created equal rather then support settings.

Yes, it isn't a slam dunk, the smaller scorch mark appears on the "doorjamb," while the bigger holes are obviously buried in the wall. It is the strongest evidence offered though, I'm still surprised it wasn't the centerpiece of the article.
Really, blaster power settings isn't a topic I feel strongly about one way or the other. It seems to me a distinct likelihood that they would have some degree of adjustably, (of course, they do, stun setting) the exact level of control, and how far those levels reach, is wide open. There is no hard proof that blasters can click away from stun, to kill, to blow a hole in the wall, they aren't phasers after all. Still, some level of power adjustment is a possibility, be it from switch flipping, clip swapping, or... a fancy telemetric system reading data from pressure applied to the trigger in conjunction with targeting data relayed from the scope combined with retina tracking in the troopers helmet to determine the ideal energy composition to maximize bolt penetration and damage to the target... Yeah, right. But here is a question: How do E-11's make that "cocking" noise when the troopers raise them to the ready position? I've never seen a slide or lever or button being activated.... I by no means believe that they are magitech super guns with gobs of awesome nanotechnology beeping away under the surface, but quickly dismissing them as dumb guns, barely as good as twentieth century firearms without further thought, would be just as erroneous.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: As for Luke's being contained behind a thin metal door, yeah, I never even considered his using his blaster to force his way through as being a valid tactic. But then I never considered him using his lightsaber to do so either, and there's little doubt as to its abilities in that regard. So valid or not, it isn't exactly conclusive.

Well, it is specifically written into the script that a relatively thin metal door is too much, but then Cloud City has lightsaber proof guard rails, but the railings may be VFX goofs.

Yeah, thats already covered in the other thread, "thin" is likely a typo originally meant to be thick. http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=6682
About the lightsaber proof guard rails though, lightsabers can cut through most materials, but that need not mean it does so effortlessly. Luke also lightly struck Vader's arm in the Cloud City duel. Further, in the final duel with Vader on the second Death Star, he harmlessly whacks the guardrails a couple time before powering his way through Vader's arm and the same guardrail in one enraged swipe. Other times in the prequels and the Clone Wars series, different materials seem to take more time and effort than others to cut though.

Darth Spock wrote: Well, whatever it's called, a carbine, a pistol, a tooti-fruti-deatomizing hoopty-doo. It's just semantics for our purposes here. And I suck at technical terms.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/carbine
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pistol
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/musket
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rifle
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... lt%20rifle
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/machine%20gun
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... hine%20gun
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictiona ... e%20pistol

You also have what seems to be a more resent and vague class of weapons referred to as personal defense weapons or P.D.W which are often similar to submachine guns and assault rifles.

Darth Spock wrote: Yup, but the reference here was to support the idea of adjustable yields for hand weapons, not to say a blaster is a grenade launcher. It is true that this is an out lier, and your point brings the example under reasonable doubt, but it isn't completely dis-proven either. Cinematically, they generally like to show fancy shooting/tactics like setting off a bomb with a gun shot, and that he uses one gun to make the blast, and the other to shoot a guy in the chest at close range, gives the distinct possibility of two separate ammo types being used, and in the same model weapon. Still, I wouldn't want to hang my hat on that lone scene to "prove" that blasters have multiple settings.

1) To support adjustable yields you need to show a character acting as if they have the ability to adjust the yield of the weapon beyond the kill and stun setting, and that has yet to be done with any blaster I'm aware of. There are simply too many times where upping the firepower would have been very helpful if not life saving, and yet wasn't done.

It's far too easy for the VFX artist to be doing what they think looks good without thinking beyond that. It's no different from how inconsistent Staff Weapons are in the Stargate franchise. They make a big flash, but do relatively little damage often.

2) I really don't think that blaster have ammo types so much as power-packs.

Darth Spock wrote: 1) A good observation, and if a more powerful round is being launched from a separate emitter, that would put a serious dent in this being an example of adjustable yield, let alone one available at the flip of a switch.

And yet there is nothing that shows that there is a variable yield or grenade in this case.

Darth Spock wrote: 2) That was my biggest problem with the article as well. The video of Zygerrian blaster is one of the better examples, and you make valid points as to that video's reliability as solid evidence of blaster settings.

1) Each firer fight has a relatively large number of data points which means even a single battle should give a good sampling of what you can expect a given weapon to do.

2) The videos would be better if they were in slow motion. as that would help people isolate each bolt.

Darth Spock wrote: 3) Haha! Yes, I've seen those too, always amuses me. The actors used blanks during filming, and indeed the ejected casings can be seen at times. Whether this reflects a similar technology as that employed by the large Separatist guns ejecting shell casings on their ships is something I've wondered. This doesn't really put a hard limit on the firepower of blasters though. Different rated "casings" could effect blaster performance, though it is true such a scenario would reduce the range of settings available by the flick of a switch.

1) One problem is that the shell casings don't always get ejected. It's most likely a visual effects mistake.

2) The guns you're thinking of are called proton cannons, and the cartiges are possibly something like a capacitor.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/J-1_semi ... ton_cannon

Darth Spock wrote: Yes, it isn't a slam dunk, the smaller scorch mark appears on the "doorjamb," while the bigger holes are obviously buried in the wall. It is the strongest evidence offered though, I'm still surprised it wasn't the centerpiece of the article.
Really, blaster power settings isn't a topic I feel strongly about one way or the other. It seems to me a distinct likelihood that they would have some degree of adjustably, (of course, they do, stun setting) the exact level of control, and how far those levels reach, is wide open. There is no hard proof that blasters can click away from stun, to kill, to blow a hole in the wall, they aren't phasers after all. Still, some level of power adjustment is a possibility, be it from switch flipping, clip swapping, or... a fancy telemetric system reading data from pressure applied to the trigger in conjunction with targeting data relayed from the scope combined with retina tracking in the troopers helmet to determine the ideal energy composition to maximize bolt penetration and damage to the target... Yeah, right. But here is a question: How do E-11's make that "cocking" noise when the troopers raise them to the ready position? I've never seen a slide or lever or button being activated.... I by no means believe that they are magitech super guns with gobs of awesome nanotechnology beeping away under the surface, but quickly dismissing them as dumb guns, barely as good as twentieth century firearms without further thought, would be just as erroneous.

1) The problem comes down to the fact that there doesn't seem to ever be a statement about changing the setting beyond stun to kill, and not that it would likely be possible or make sense.

2) I was always under the impression that the clicking sound was the safety being taken off, or the white parts of the storm trooper's armor bumping into itself.

3) I've heard someone once put forth the idea that the trigger pull is how you control the output per bolt, but that seems rather risky to me, and it would work better to explain the apparent burst function.

Darth Spock wrote: Yeah, thats already covered in the other thread, "thin" is likely a typo originally meant to be thick. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6682
About the lightsaber proof guard rails though, lightsabers can cut through most materials, but that need not mean it does so effortlessly. Luke also lightly struck Vader's arm in the Cloud City duel. Further, in the final duel with Vader on the second Death Star, he harmlessly whacks the guardrails a couple time before powering his way through Vader's arm and the same guardrail in one enraged swipe. Other times in the prequels and the Clone Wars series, different materials seem to take more time and effort than others to cut though.

It's still a relatively thin door by the standards of the setting.

Lucky wrote: 1) To support adjustable yields you need to show a character acting as if they have the ability to adjust the yield of the weapon beyond the kill and stun setting, and that has yet to be done with any blaster I'm aware of. There are simply too many times where upping the firepower would have been very helpful if not life saving, and yet wasn't done.

It's far too easy for the VFX artist to be doing what they think looks good without thinking beyond that. It's no different from how inconsistent Staff Weapons are in the Stargate franchise. They make a big flash, but do relatively little damage often.

That is definitely a big problem in many franchises, even Trek. At least they have the advantage of blaming the chosen setting.

Lucky wrote:2) I really don't think that blaster have ammo types so much as power-packs.

I agree, but the existence of the ejected casings leaves the possibility open.

Lucky wrote: And yet there is nothing that shows that there is a variable yield or grenade in this case.

Other than the fact that a shot from one gun acted like a simple blaster "bullet," while another shot from another gun of the same model acted like a grenade. The OP offering that as evidence doesn't definitively prove it, but it's not "nothing." Besides, you offered the possibility that the Zygerrian blaster had an under barrel grenade launcher:

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: C) Another true point, in case he was actually firing something akin to a rifle grenade. Still there was nothing special attached or configured to that gun that we could tell. It's possible it's simply a matter of distinct ammo type being used. Swapping clips is not the same as flipping a switch, but it does open up possibilities. On an aside, this does not necessarily reflect the capabilities of the E-11 or DC-15 either, but I recall old (low, now un-canon) sources indicated some blasters actually could launch projectiles, the Wookiee bowcaster's quarrel being the most notable example.

1) The model of blaster used by the Zygerrians looks like it may have some sort of under barrel weapon such as a grenade launcher.

The big problem is that this model is used by several people in the same scene, but the video focuses on a single shot, and that is a problem with the videos in general as the seem to lack context and the sample size is small.

2) Each model of blaster should be analyzed individually. It's like comparing an H&K 416, H&K 417, AK-47, and AK-74 only there are likely larger differences.

3) In Episode 4 A New Hope you can see E-11 ejecting casings at times.

Lucky wrote: 1) Each firer fight has a relatively large number of data points which means even a single battle should give a good sampling of what you can expect a given weapon to do.

2) The videos would be better if they were in slow motion. as that would help people isolate each bolt.

1000% agreed.

Lucky wrote:1) One problem is that the shell casings don't always get ejected. It's most likely a visual effects mistake.

Most likely it is only a VFX mistake, but, you brought them up.... Besides which, if we don't ignore them, they could be a lot of things, capacitors, as you suggest, or indeed non-rechargeable power cells that are ejected when depleted. That doesn't make much sense to me why they'd make a clip of mini cells, but, whatever.

Lucky wrote:2) The guns you're thinking of are called proton cannons, and the cartiges are possibly something like a capacitor.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/J-1_semi ... ton_cannon

Given the similarities, that may well be the same basic tech. Although, specifically I was thinking of the guns aboard the Invisible Hand seen during the broadside exchange early in ROTS, it was a belt fed cannon which ejected spent casings out the back after firing. Whether these contained a warhead, were a similar type of proton cannon like seen on Ryloth, or something like a bomb pumped laser, or just contained something considered too unstable to pump through conduits is anyones guess.

Lucky wrote:1) The problem comes down to the fact that there doesn't seem to ever be a statement about changing the setting beyond stun to kill, and not that it would likely be possible or make sense.

2) I was always under the impression that the clicking sound was the safety being taken off, or the white parts of the storm trooper's armor bumping into itself.

3) I've heard someone once put forth the idea that the trigger pull is how you control the output per bolt, but that seems rather risky to me, and it would work better to explain the apparent burst function.

1) True, and I too rather doubt that most blasters are readily adjustable. Though blasters clearly aren't all the same strength, and while some blasters may get more than just 2 settings, it seems likely the Empire would limit how much ammo it's troops waste. When more variety of firepower is needed, 4 different types of Imperial blasters were seen in ANH alone, and the E-11 evolved considerably over the course of the trilogy.
[EDIT] - Forgot, I might point out that Han shot the probe droid on Hoth multiple times, yet said he didn't blast it that hard. It's possible he was using the lowest non-stun setting/ammo for his gun, but then it's not standard Imperial issue either.

2) Hmm no, it's definitely not armor clunking, although the safety going on and off could be true too. Still, it's not caused by an obvious action on the troopers part. I only bring it up to point out that not every mechanical adjustment needs to be highlighted to the audience. In ANH the trooper says set for stun, because we need to know she is important, and this is why the blue thing didn't kill her in this new, unfamiliar fictional setting. In SW:CW 2:20: Death Trap, they zoom in on Boba switching to stun because its important to his character development. The few other times we see stun settings, we just see blue rings, no announcement telling the audience "hey, we're gonna use stun now!"

3) Trigger pressure sensitivity, who knows, I was being facetious when I brought it up. My point is merely that the exact operation of these blasters is rather vague. They are more gun-like than phasers, but like Lily Sloane in ST:8: First Contact, picking one up and finding the trigger is just the first step.

Lucky wrote:

Darth Spock wrote: Yeah, thats already covered in the other thread, "thin" is likely a typo originally meant to be thick. viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6682
About the lightsaber proof guard rails though, lightsabers can cut through most materials, but that need not mean it does so effortlessly. Luke also lightly struck Vader's arm in the Cloud City duel. Further, in the final duel with Vader on the second Death Star, he harmlessly whacks the guardrails a couple time before powering his way through Vader's arm and the same guardrail in one enraged swipe. Other times in the prequels and the Clone Wars series, different materials seem to take more time and effort than others to cut though.

It's still a relatively thin door by the standards of the setting.

Okay... Luke should have used his lightsaber on it, no question that would have gotten through. So, either Luke is a doofus, in which case we don't know how much damage that door could endure, or the thing was shielded. Either way, it doesn't give us any useful information here.

Darth Spock wrote:

Lucky wrote:2) The guns you're thinking of are called proton cannons, and the cartiges are possibly something like a capacitor.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/J-1_semi ... ton_cannon

Given the similarities, that may well be the same basic tech. Although, specifically I was thinking of the guns aboard the Invisible Hand seen during the broadside exchange early in ROTS, it was a belt fed cannon which ejected spent casings out the back after firing. Whether these contained a warhead, were a similar type of proton cannon like seen on Ryloth, or something like a bomb pumped laser, or just contained something considered too unstable to pump through conduits is anyones guess.

Would be good if we learned that they can be used as guided energy projectiles.
Recently, the SW database decided to makes all proton and concussion missiles into non-solid guided projectiles.
That's some serious bump in terms of technology.