Star Wars and Star Trek acceleration (no EU, please)

[Picard]

If they were waiting there, the Rebel fleet would have seen them beforehand. And the novelization quote clearly debunks that a tactical jump was used:

It doesn't say where they came from, or how they came.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Bullshit.

The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go.

Simple. A few seconds earlier in the films, we see no fleet. A few seconds later, we see a fleet. The novel confirms that they did not microjump in, and that they came in from behind Endor (which is obvious once you discredit the possibility of microjumping).

So within seconds, the imperial fleet circumnavigates Endor. You see, the difference between SW acceleration speeds and ST acceleration speeds is that, while both magically forget to use it in dogfights, SW at least occasionally makes use of it in high tactical/operational maneuvers, whereas Trek only utilizes such speeds during cruises.

[KSW]

Bullshit.

The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go.

Simple. A few seconds earlier in the films, we see no fleet. A few seconds later, we see a fleet. The novel confirms that they did not microjump in, and that they came in from behind Endor (which is obvious once you discredit the possibility of microjumping).

So within seconds, the imperial fleet circumnavigates Endor. You see, the difference between SW acceleration speeds and ST acceleration speeds is that, while both magically forget to use it in dogfights, SW at least occasionally makes use of it in high tactical/operational maneuvers, whereas Trek only utilizes such speeds during cruises.

The whole idea of a "microjump" is dubious, given Han Solo's risking the Falcon at Tatooine in ANH if he could just jump a few light-years in any direction and lose the Star Destroyers. From what it looks like, it takes just as long to jump long distances as short ones.
Meanwhile we've seen Starfleet ships maneuver at warp, but SW ships can't seem to change course in hyperspace, they have to stop first.

[Lucky]

The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go.

Bullshit.
Simple. A few seconds earlier in the films, we see no fleet. A few seconds later, we see a fleet. The novel confirms that they did not microjump in, and that they came in from behind Endor (which is obvious once you discredit the possibility of microjumping).

So within seconds, the imperial fleet circumnavigates Endor. You see, the difference between SW acceleration speeds and ST acceleration speeds is that, while both magically forget to use it in dogfights, SW at least occasionally makes use of it in high tactical/operational maneuvers, whereas Trek only utilizes such speeds during cruises.

Actually you see those insanely high speeds all the time in Star Trek. We know from First Contact that ships are moving very much faster then they appear.

[Picard]

Bullshit.

The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go.

Simple. A few seconds earlier in the films, we see no fleet. A few seconds later, we see a fleet. The novel confirms that they did not microjump in, and that they came in from behind Endor (which is obvious once you discredit the possibility of microjumping).

So within seconds, the imperial fleet circumnavigates Endor. You see, the difference between SW acceleration speeds and ST acceleration speeds is that, while both magically forget to use it in dogfights, SW at least occasionally makes use of it in high tactical/operational maneuvers, whereas Trek only utilizes such speeds during cruises.

So what acceleration would it give? And is it really few seconds? We never get to see area where fleet appears anyway.

[2046]

This has been discussed before. In low orbits, dependent on altitude, the distance to emerge from behind the limb of Endor and arrive at the battle is only like 2000-4000 kilometers.

That's not some super magic circumnavigation of Endor. At 200 m/s^2 accelerating and decelerating from and to dead stop, 3000 kilometers will take about three minutes.

Given that there was fair warning of the approach of the Rebels, the event could've been timed even better so that they were already on the move and ready to swing out from the limb by the time the Rebels arrived at the Death Star's doorstep, removing the need to actually accelerate and *then* decelerate per the figures above.

So, that's not a great example of Star Wars acceleration, since it readily fits within the Falcon afterburner acceleration figures. Got something else?

If you really want to see a ship whip around a planet, try checking out Trek's Kumeh Maneuver from "Peak Performance"[TNG2].

[Mike DiCenso]

Got anything that illustrates how awesome this Kumeh Maneuver is?
-Mike

[Picard]

Well, I searched for "Kumeh manouver" and found this:
Link
How good is that forum?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ0coUtbue0

It takes at the very most one minute for the imperial fleet to arrive. (so no, Darkstar, three minutes is too long)

Additionally, at 7:50 an X wing leaves the Death Star and becomes but a tiny blip in the distance with the rest of the Rebel fleet (which began moving away less than a minute ago) with no screen cuts.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5dpDDJd ... re=related

In a matter of seconds, the Death Star goes from not being visible to taking up a quarter of the viewscreen. And the mood and the characters' positions and facial expressions remain constant throughout.

[Picard]

First, Death Star was never "invisible". Second, velocity was at best few hundred kilometers per second - and while it seems there was some acceleration, we don't know velocity at which they exited hyperspace.

As for Imperial fleet arriving, you missed Darkstar's point - they may have started accelerating before Rebel fleet even arrived.

[2046]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ0coUtbue0

It takes at the very most one minute for the imperial fleet to arrive. (so no, Darkstar, three minutes is too long)

I say nay-nay.

You want the book maneuver, an observed and watched event, combined with the movie, where the fleet's presence comes as a shock. It doesn't work like that . . . the events are different, and therefore the timeline. Or, you can declare the events basically the same save for the observed part, but accept the required consistent timeline. You can't pick and choose and declare your choice to be evidence.

Additionally, at 7:50 an X wing leaves the Death Star and becomes but a tiny blip in the distance with the rest of the Rebel fleet (which began moving away less than a minute ago) with no screen cuts.

And the velocity isn't that great, especially given that he had several kilometers of acceleration before even emerging. He was probably rolling at a kilometer or two per second, which is peanuts to accomplish with 200 m/s^2 acceleration.

If you think differently, show your math.

[Mike DiCenso]

Well, I searched for "Kumeh manouver" and found this:
Link
How good is that forum?

I see, but it's more 2046, aka Darkstar's responsibility to post such evidence when requested. Or show why it is proof of acceleration right in the first post.
-Mike

[Picard]

I know but that was manouver I never heard of so I got interested and took "liberty" of searching for it myself.

[2046]

http://megavideoshows.com/star-trek-the ... episode/21

30:40 to 31:15ish in the episode. The two ships are seen nose-to-nose, then the wargames battle begins. Picard orders a course at full impulse and specifies the Kumeh Maneuver. The Hathaway tactical screen clearly shows the Enterprise zip around from behind the planet. The entire event from the end of Picard's order to the apparent end of the Kumeh Maneuver takes all of six seconds.

I don't see anything that jumps out at me as a reason to question the event. The ships are not in low orbit so the tactical screen's scales and whatnot don't appear doubtful (unlike some Star Wars screens I could mention).

So, assuming the Enterprise did a high-velocity powered orbit (though "orbit" in this context is a bit odd given that gravity was out the window at those speeds) at what we'll ballpark as a 3000km altitude, then continuing to assume an Earth-like planet that's a swing-around with a total length of about 59,000 kilometers. Let's drop that to 50,000 (e.g. knock off 15%) for ease of calculation and politeness, and we'll even ignore the additional acceleration requirements of rounding a circle and just treat it as straight-line acceleration and deceleration.

The way I read it, that means they ramped up to 5.5% lightspeed (16,666,666.66 m/s) in about three seconds, then decelerated in the same amount of time. That's an acceleration of about 5500km/s^2, in comparison with paltry Imperial rates of .2km/s^2.

Coupled with the weapons range problems of Star Wars ships, this equally unequal matter of acceleration means that only the luckiest individual ship or the most massive chain-linked shrinking envelope of Imperial vessels could hope to get a Federation starship in range.

The deceleration alone at the end of the Kumeh Maneuver would be enough to fuel the wet dreams of Imperial ship designers for decades.

So, I advise you to abandon this topic and move on to a more fruitful one.

[Mike DiCenso]

Thanks for providing the link and the analysis, RSA. That is rather impressive.
-Mike