So can Trek ships use phasers to shoot down torps?

[Who is like God arbour]

Mr. Oragahn, I will answer you, but not now.

[Mike DiCenso]

YES and NO - ships maneuver, phaser or disruptor bolts don't maneuver and the capability of torpedos to make evasion manoeuvers seems to be very limited. They are able to change their courses and follow a starship, but I can't remember, that I have ever seen a torpedo to make a hard turn.

We actually on at least a few occasions seen that torpedoes can make a "hard turn". For example, in "Genesis" [TNG7], a torpedo that malfunctions does a hard 90 degree turn.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

To me, the most important thing is the shielding on a typical photon torpedo, which in turn is best measured in "Half a Life." Granted, those are modified torpedoes; however, there is no reason that other torpedoes could not also survive similarly hostile conditions. A million kilometers of incandescent plasma is a lot to turn aside; I'd guess a photon torpedo to be able to survive close to its own yield.

Bearing in mind that while starship phasers have similar outputs to the warp core ("The Sound of Her Voice"), the starship shields that deflect them are usually only powered by some of the secondary fusion generators ("Hero Worship"), this is very reasonable.

And where does this energy ultimately go? If it's absorbed and re-radiated instead of deflected around the shield, it actually adds to the yield of the torpedo. Once the torpedo can absorb its own yield, shooting at it is a wash under typical circumstances (you may as well be using that firepower on the easier-to-hit enemy ship) and possibly a net negative (hitting it with anything short of overload power will simply make it blow up better).

We know we can have shields strong enough to make shooting at torpedoes a wasteful use of potential offensive power; we know shielded torpedoes are almost never fired upon.

The question of whether or not Federation targeting is up to tracking photon torpedoes is, I think, credibly answered as "yes." They have very good accuracy and the torpedoes generally do not evade.

[Who is like God arbour]

Mr. Oragahn:

1. A star is usualle hoter in the core and has a higher pressure, than on its surface. That apllies also to a Red Giant. While its surface has a temperature of »only« 5000 Kelvin, its core can still have temperatures far over 200 Million Kelvin, especially if there is a helium flash ongoing.
   
   But we don't have to speculate about the conditions in the core of the sun from Half a Live. We know, that immediately after the ignition has happened, the heat and pressure levels were steady so far. Density was at eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter and the temperature was approaching sixty million degrees Kelvin.
   
   Please calculate with these values, what exactly these photon torpedos could withstand.
2. It was said, that Dr. Timicin has reprogrammed the guidance system of the photon torpedos. It was never said or indicated, that he has changed the hardware. Thus I have to assume, that the shields generator are the same as usually.
3. In Pen Pals, it was explicit said, that they have used torpedo casings to protect the probes, which were fired from the ship in orbit around the planet and were supposed to burrow themself through the surface of the planet to reach the dilithium lattices to shatter them. As was shown, the torpedo casing have survived these high impacts, which were fast enough to bring the torpedos down to the dilithium lattices in the mantle of the planet.
4. I'm sure, that Harry Kim has learned, that there is such a thing like a photonic shockwave and the different methods to create one. But not as part of a tactical lesson. And because he couldn't imagine, that he would ever fire a phaser at a photon torpedo in that science class, he wouldn't have thought at a tactical application.
   And he was in a battle situation as a newbie with little real experience and a science orientated education. I'm sure, you can understand, that he was a bit under the weather at that moment.
   Besides, he has not asked, how a photonic shockwave could be created, but how the Romulan Captain has the photonic shockwave created. He hasn't thought at the obvious answer although he should have be able to guess it. That shows again, that he was a little bit jazzed.
5. The further examples weren't supposed to have anything to do with photonic shockwaves but were meant to give further reasons, why Star Trek battles are short range affairs.
6. Optical sensors wouldn't be »Eyeball Mk I«. If you want to look for disruptor bolts with the naked eye, as I assume was you proposal, when you have proposed »Eyeball Mk I« as fire control sensor, you have to position crewmans at each window of the Enterprise. I know, that there would be better fire control sensors. But you wanted »Eyeball Mk I«.
   
   But let us stop this part of the debate. We have already established, that the Enterprise has good sensors, that were able to detect disruptor bolt, when they have emerged from the cloacking field and the shield impacts of their own weapons. I see no reason to argue the question, if »today's fire control sensors and computers would be able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back.« and if the naked eye qualifies as »fire control sensors«.
7. You are correct, we have never seen a photon torpedo doing evasive maneouvers. But we have never seen, how anyone has tried to shoot down an enemy torpedo. I know only examples, in which the own torpedos were shoot down. Therefore there was simply no need for a photon torpedo to make evasive maneouvers and therefore, the fact that we have not seen any, is meaningless - unless you are able to find a situation, where a photon torpedo should better have done an evasive maneouver.
   
   As Nemesis has shown, at least the Enterprise E is able to aim her weapons very fast. In several other episodes of Star Trek, we have also seen, that accuracy is not a problem. Considering, what we know from the reaction time, weapons range and accuracy of Star Trek ships, they are able to hit photon torpedos with ease.
   
   That they don't do it, allows only the conclusion, that they wouldn't be able to destroy the photon torpedo. Logical conclusion: the shields are too strong.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The Ferengi were in motion toward the wormhole terminus . . . the Enterprise-D was apparently still in orbit of the planet.

Doesn't make a load of difference though. That Ferengi ship was moving towards a single point, and not applying evase manoeuvers. Basically, just a straight fly.
So you still exactly know where the missile will come out from, and its vector.

So we have a starship falling around a planet, another in powered flight off in some direction, and a wormhole terminus thought stable, but not perfectly fixed . . . note the Ferengi comment that the other terminus was "Right where I expected it to be." If it isn't moving in the slightest, then this comment would be somewhat retarded, since he just emerged from it.

(This would be like parking your car, going inside, and coming back out again with a prediction as to the cars location. Ignoring semantic gamesmanship on the terminology, the simple fact is that you expect your parked car to be in the same place you left it . . . thus, acting like finding the car is some sort of triumphant confirmation is not normal.)

Safe if the wormhole could have been unstable enough to move on its own.
Equally, if the wormhole's movement, if there was any, couldn't be predicted, that Ferengi could not have made that comment.
So either the wormhole remained in position, while they considered the possibility that it could move (and over what distances? as I understand it, an unstable wormhole can end many light years away from where it was, which would mean that the prediction would be more about how the Ferengi expected the wormhole still being where it was found), or maybe just flicker off (the wormhole entrance disappear and reappears randomly).

This is not a combat situation.

Actually, in some respects its better. The overall situation was unexpected . . . a complete surprise for the E-D crew who did not begin in an alert condition. It was entirely due to the machinations of Ral.

It wasn't expected until the missile launchers were activated, at which point yellow alert was on. No surprise here. Dialogue went by before the missiles were fired. They were prepared to that possibility, and not stuck in the fury of a combat, making evasive manoeuvers. We're clearly far from a combat situation.

But let's be clear. In the heat of a battle, with torpedoes which could be fired slightly off axis, fired in volleys, adopt curved paths, and hit any point on ships being hundreds of meters long, and all of them moving relative to each others, it's way harder to obtain intercept courses on such close ranges.

Close range I agree with, albeit for different reasons. The computers should be more than capable of targeting a torpedo at close range, but at least there would be a reduction of possible response time. Caveats would be the whole photonic shockwave possibility, and the issue of required phaser dwell time to penetrate torpedo shielding.

Mm... if my figures aren't wrong, even the total energy maxed out by the reactor onboard the torpedo would still be far short of any Federation capital ship phaser's power. There'd be no reason why they couldn't instantaneously shoot one down.

Off-axis fire and curved paths are of little consequence. Even a torpedo path a la Khitomer should be easy pickings.

The talk of ships hundreds of meters long I do not . . . there is no reason to presume that the Barzan wormhole was too small for a starship to enter, and indeed there is talk of the number of ships that would be passing through in the next century. This suggests that the terminus is also hundreds of meters in size.

In short, I think you're using too many assumptions on Generations and basing your understanding of this therefrom. That is, you're thinking that Worf was saying the Enterprise weapons couldn't reliably track a target in a near-instant timeframe without a known point of origin.

But that situation featured a warp-capable missile fired from some unknown location on the surface of a planet, meaning it wouldn't be like the E-D was playing Duck Hunt. The ship would have to track and likely chase the target. It's a much different setup.

I suppose, yes. However, it would be much different, and a very effective example, if the plan was to shoot the missile before it could take off.
Even if it did take off, it would be rather absurd that the ship's sensors couldn't pick up the trail of an accelerating missile.

"The Price" examples are of a much more normal variety, and thus ought to have more weight, conceptually. And, the example should not be re-understood based on your assumptions regarding Generations.

But if Generations is nothing special, it's still valid and has to be considered.
What was Generations' context, actually?

[Mr. Oragahn]

If small shield surfaced allowed such feats, it would just be a matter of using a patchwork of small shields, and you'd have supertough ships.
Unsurprisingly, it's not the case.

. . . which tells us only that the idea of a patchwork of torpedo shields is not useful for a starship, for any of a myriad of reasons.

Or which tells us that torpedo shields are glorified. When you consider the surface area of a torp's shield, it's going to take far less than a capital ship's shield.

[Mr. Oragahn]

To me, the most important thing is the shielding on a typical photon torpedo, which in turn is best measured in "Half a Life." Granted, those are modified torpedoes; however, there is no reason that other torpedoes could not also survive similarly hostile conditions. A million kilometers of incandescent plasma is a lot to turn aside; I'd guess a photon torpedo to be able to survive close to its own yield.

Bearing in mind that while starship phasers have similar outputs to the warp core ("The Sound of Her Voice"), the starship shields that deflect them are usually only powered by some of the secondary fusion generators ("Hero Worship"), this is very reasonable.

And where does this energy ultimately go? If it's absorbed and re-radiated instead of deflected around the shield, it actually adds to the yield of the torpedo. Once the torpedo can absorb its own yield, shooting at it is a wash under typical circumstances (you may as well be using that firepower on the easier-to-hit enemy ship) and possibly a net negative (hitting it with anything short of overload power will simply make it blow up better).

We know we can have shields strong enough to make shooting at torpedoes a wasteful use of potential offensive power; we know shielded torpedoes are almost never fired upon.

The question of whether or not Federation targeting is up to tracking photon torpedoes is, I think, credibly answered as "yes." They have very good accuracy and the torpedoes generally do not evade.

Obviously, we're clearly dealing with questions about accuracy here. How can said accuracy be assuredly put as a yes against small and fast targets such as torpedoes?
Most of the time, heavy phasers are only considered in engagements involving large targets.
When phasers are displaying great accuracy, it seems to be in cases where there was either a lot of planning, enough known parameters such as locations and few possible vectors, and often siting duck targets (ground target, floating asteroid, etc.).

What really matters is the cases where there's more surprise than that.

There is response time. As everybody agrees here, the closer the ships, the shorter the time to react. My point is that combining "Generations" and the ranges of DS9, it seems that interceptions are particularily hard.
Missiles flying everywhere, possibility of collateral damage when there's lot of ships (but that's rare and aonly applies to cramped battle zones), projectiles from a same volley adapting different courses (even if there are several phaser banks, it doesn't seem like targets can be distributed that easily), changing trajectories (after all, the torps move).

But I'm also considering the idea that accuracy at short ranges, against such fast and small targets, when unknowns are piling up, clearly makes interception very hard.
The longer the distance, the easier the interception, which is just logical, but the question is how far you put the threshold (radius from the ship equipped with phasers) between "doable" and "too late! duck behind consoles!"...

[Mr. Oragahn]

A star is usualle hoter in the core and has a higher pressure, than on its surface. That apllies also to a Red Giant. While its surface has a temperature of »only« 5000 Kelvin, its core can still have temperatures far over 200 Million Kelvin, especially if there is a helium flash ongoing.

The case is clear. If we're dealing with a red giant, the activity is on the "surface" of the sun, and outclasses the rather low activity or non acitivity of the core.
And there's just zero sign of anything such as a helium flash occuring in this sun. It's red dim, with darker zones. It's dying, and there's no sudden surge of energy going on there.

The wikipedia article actually rules out helium flash:

"A helium flash is the sudden beginning of helium fusion in the core of intermediate mass stars, or on the surface of an accreting white dwarf star."

It's either a red giant, or a small red sun, maybe even a red dwarf. So it doesn't fit.

"Shell helium flashes is a similar Helium ignition, although not necessarily dependent on degenerate matter, occurring periodically in Asymptotic Giant Branch stars in a shell outside the core."

If there's a helium flash to happen, in this case, it would happen in the shell, which partially fits with the fact that a red giant's highest activity is in the shell, but fails on the point that visuals completely dispute any major star activity.

But we don't have to speculate about the conditions in the core of the sun from Half a Live. We know, that immediately after the ignition has happened, the heat and pressure levels were steady so far. Density was at eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter and the temperature was approaching sixty million degrees Kelvin.
Please calculate with these values, what exactly these photon torpedos could withstand.

That's the aftermath of fucking up the star with thirty pints of technobabble. It's irrelevant.

It was said, that Dr. Timicin has reprogrammed the guidance system of the photon torpedos. It was never said or indicated, that he has changed the hardware. Thus I have to assume, that the shields generator are the same as usually.

They worked on them for hours. Just to rework the guidance system? What's to rework in detail besides just dive into the sun. The gravity itself will do most of the work.

In Pen Pals, it was explicit said, that they have used torpedo casings to protect the probes, which were fired from the ship in orbit around the planet and were supposed to burrow themself through the surface of the planet to reach the dilithium lattices to shatter them. As was shown, the torpedo casing have survived these high impacts, which were fast enough to bring the torpedos down to the dilithium lattices in the mantle of the planet.

I need more data, and screenshots eventually, of the torps, holes and ground structure, to judge this case. Thing is, did you consider kinetic energy and momentum relative to such impacts, and the possibility that the torps, in that case, were modified to have their shield get also a NDF component?

I'm sure, that Harry Kim has learned, that there is such a thing like a photonic shockwave and the different methods to create one. But not as part of a tactical lesson. And because he couldn't imagine, that he would ever fire a phaser at a photon torpedo in that science class, he wouldn't have thought at a tactical application.
And he was in a battle situation as a newbie with little real experience and a science orientated education. I'm sure, you can understand, that he was a bit under the weather at that moment.
Besides, he has not asked, how a photonic shockwave could be created, but how the Romulan Captain has the photonic shockwave created. He hasn't thought at the obvious answer although he should have be able to guess it. That shows again, that he was a little bit jazzed.

That would be like Starfleet engineers not knowing about never pouring water into a concentrated acid.
I can buy the lack of skill to apply this knowledge to a combat situation, especially for a newbie, but not the idea that it would be so unknown.
Did the captain who fired at the torp enter special parameters for the phaser or something, exploiting an achille heal in a standard torp design?

Besides, I already gave plenty of reasons why if this phenomenon was so well known, it would be exploited more than so rarely.

There would be a whole chapter in naval tactics and strategies books about the danger of torpedoes, and exploiting photonic shockwaves. Many battles would be long range engagements, where the game is to shoot down your torpedoes the closer to your target.
Even more, at close range, no one would ever dare fire torpedoes, because of the fear of any accidental PS. Borg cubes wouldn't bother using a thousand guns, and suicide pilots wouldn't attempt last resort rams or fire all they have in the most traditional way (phaser+torps hurray).

No, sorry, it doesn't fly.

The further examples weren't supposed to have anything to do with photonic shockwaves but were meant to give further reasons, why Star Trek battles are short range affairs.

If anything, your examples rather explain fairly well why the captains would try to put as much distance as possible between their ships and the enemy, and thus favour long range engagements.

The whole point is a bit of a gambit: gaining the surprise and reducing your enemy's ability to react, but getting closer to its cannons and making his job easier. As a whole, it surely increases the speed at which a battle outcome is determined.

Optical sensors wouldn't be »Eyeball Mk I«. If you want to look for disruptor bolts with the naked eye, as I assume was you proposal, when you have proposed »Eyeball Mk I« as fire control sensor, you have to position crewmans at each window of the Enterprise. I know, that there would be better fire control sensors. But you wanted »Eyeball Mk I«.

It was, ahem, an image. If our eyes can see the beam, if a minimum of parallax can determine the position of the beam, its beginning and ending, then a civilization that builds robots, human-like AIs and visors and gazillons accute sensors shouldn't have problems to place sensors all the lenght of a ship to get a well defined estimation of the enemy's position.

But let us stop this part of the debate. We have already established, that the Enterprise has good sensors, that were able to detect disruptor bolt, when they have emerged from the cloacking field and the shield impacts of their own weapons. I see no reason to argue the question, if »today's fire control sensors and computers would be able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back.« and if the naked eye qualifies as »fire control sensors«.

And yet they don't do it. It's possible that their sensors have become so specialized that they're not capable of measuring beam specific emissions with more mundane sensor systems.
I mean, hello, really. If a person can get an idea of where the beam is coming from just by looking at a screencap...

So either you admit that the sensors have severe flaws, or that some kind of jamming was going on, as suggested.
If I were you, I'd certainly opt for the jamming, without necessarily neglecting the possibility that the Federation use so complicated sensors (maybe relying on subspace) that they have left more primitive means behind them. Yet, in that case, it would have greatly helped them.

It's a bit like like if you were dealing with an enemy which can render your antimatter inert (don't ask). You'd sure be happy to still possess old fashioned nuclear warheads onboard.

You are correct, we have never seen a photon torpedo doing evasive maneouvers. But we have never seen, how anyone has tried to shoot down an enemy torpedo. I know only examples, in which the own torpedos were shoot down. Therefore there was simply no need for a photon torpedo to make evasive maneouvers and therefore, the fact that we have not seen any, is meaningless - unless you are able to find a situation, where a photon torpedo should better have done an evasive maneouver.

Are we going into some kind of circular reasoning? They don't evade defensive shots because no one shoots at them. No one shoots at them, so they don't try to evade defensive shots. I couldn't believe such a humourous situation would have been going on for centuries. :P

As Nemesis has shown, at least the Enterprise E is able to aim her weapons very fast. In several other episodes of Star Trek, we have also seen, that accuracy is not a problem. Considering, what we know from the reaction time, weapons range and accuracy of Star Trek ships, they are able to hit photon torpedos with ease.

You see, that's the super accuracy point I'm not so hot on. There's just lots of claims, and not much evidence for the moment.

That they don't do it, allows only the conclusion, that they wouldn't be able to destroy the photon torpedo. Logical conclusion: the shields are too strong.

They don't seem so. I mean, let's get clear, that captain guy shooting down a torpedo for his neat trick pretty much shows it's possible to... shoot down a torpedo.

That said, I'd like to thank you for returning to a more manageable post format. ;)

[Roondar]

A few things:

1) A smaller shield (and likewise smaller shield generator) will likely be more powerful relative to a bigger one simply because of the way volumes and surface area scale:

Make a sphere's volume 10 times larger, it's surface area just increased by a factor of 100. The same goes the other way. This effectively means that a small shield will be relatively powerful compared to a big shield, all things being equal.

(an example:

Suppose your starship shield generator produces a shield of strength 1000. Your photon torpedo has a generator 1/1000th of the size, so only produces a strength 1 shield.

However: while your photon torpedo is only 1/1000th the size of your starship, it's shields will only cover 1/100000th of the area. This means that the effective strength of the shield in any given area is actually 100 times higher than the shield of your capital ship.

Even though it's total strength is far lower. This is also the reason why ants can lift such insane weights compared to us)

2) Torpedo shields are great of course, but blindly assuming them to have an NDF effect just so you can minimize their strengths in other situations sounds a bit unfair. At the very least it's no more likely to have an NDF effect than it is just 'rather strong' instead. In the absence of actual evidence pointing towards either option that is ;)

3) A star might only put out a certain amount of thermal energy/radiation, but that is naturally only the tip of the iceberg of what the photon torpedoes where going through: they'd have to survive the gravity of the star as well, as well as 'pierce' the matter present. All this will increase the required protection.

4) Starfleet accuracy in combat is in fact rather good, all things considered. But I'm kind of assuming that their phaser arrays are not rigged to hit fast moving tiny objects, but rather not so fast moving larger objects. Not too mention that I'm assuming they're optimized for range.

If you look at phaser fire throughout the series you can see rather well it is never an ultra fast machine gun style thing. Firing the E-D's phaser array takes rather long in most cases. It's only when they don't attempt to track moving objects or when they don't do much movement themselves that they seem able of rapid fire/target acquisition.

5) If I where to make a weapon like a photon torpedo, I'd try to make it hard for my enemy to shoot them out of the sky. Considering they can hit asteroids and the like with pin point accuracy I find it rather likely that photon torpedoes and the like contain ECM systems to prevent them from being to easy to hit.

I'll admit this is speculation tho ;)

[Kane Starkiller]

1) A smaller shield (and likewise smaller shield generator) will likely be more powerful relative to a bigger one simply because of the way volumes and surface area scale:

Actually it's exactly the opposite.

Make a sphere's volume 10 times larger, it's surface area just increased by a factor of 100. The same goes the other way. This effectively means that a small shield will be relatively powerful compared to a big shield, all things being equal.

Um no if you increase sphere's volume by a factor of 10 you are increasing it's radius by a factor of 10^(1/3) or 2.15 and it's surface area by a factor of 2.15^2 or 4.64 NOT 100.
Therefore if you increase the length of the ship by 10 you increase it's surface area by 100 but you increase it's volume (and room for the shield generator) by 1000. Therefore the bigger the ship the stronger it's shield is per unit of area.

[Who is like God arbour]

A star is usualle hoter in the core and has a higher pressure, than on its surface. That apllies also to a Red Giant. While its surface has a temperature of »only« 5000 Kelvin, its core can still have temperatures far over 200 Million Kelvin, especially if there is a helium flash ongoing.

The case is clear. If we're dealing with a red giant, the activity is on the "surface" of the sun, and outclasses the rather low activity or non acitivity of the core.
And there's just zero sign of anything such as a helium flash occuring in this sun. It's red dim, with darker zones. It's dying, and there's no sudden surge of energy going on there.

The wikipedia article actually rules out helium flash:

"A helium flash is the sudden beginning of helium fusion in the core of intermediate mass stars, or on the surface of an accreting white dwarf star."

It's either a red giant, or a small red sun, maybe even a red dwarf. So it doesn't fit.

"Shell helium flashes is a similar Helium ignition, although not necessarily dependent on degenerate matter, occurring periodically in Asymptotic Giant Branch stars in a shell outside the core."

If there's a helium flash to happen, in this case, it would happen in the shell, which partially fits with the fact that a red giant's highest activity is in the shell, but fails on the point that visuals completely dispute any major star activity.

I'm no astronomer and can also only use wikipedia. According to it, in a Red Giant, if it is heavier than 0.4 but less than 2.57 solar masses, the addition of helium to the core by shell hydrogen fusing will cause a helium flash — a rapid burst of helium fusing in the core, after which the star will commence a brief period of helium fusing before beginning another ascent of the red giant branch.

But it is irrelevant, what a Red Giant can do or can not do.

But we don't have to speculate about the conditions in the core of the sun from Half a Live. We know, that immediately after the ignition has happened, the heat and pressure levels were steady so far. Density was at eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter and the temperature was approaching sixty million degrees Kelvin.
Please calculate with these values, what exactly these photon torpedos could withstand.

That's the aftermath of fucking up the star with thirty pints of technobabble. It's irrelevant.

Wrong.

• • • • GEORDI: Ignition sequence... six seconds... three seconds... Now.
        Shock wave patterns within predicted range. Seventeen hundred percent rise in gamma radiation levels. Helium fusion rate increasing...
        
        TIMICIN (concern showing): What about the heat and pressure levels?
        
        GEORDI: Steady so far. Density at eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter. Temperature approaching sixty million degrees Kelvin.
        
        TIMICIN: We want it to stabilize at two hundred and twenty million.
        
        DATA: Pressure wave harmonics dispersing. Temperature in target zone increasing... to eighty-one million degrees.
        
        GEORDI: Still rising. Ninety million degrees Kelvin... And now one hundred ten million.

As you can see, shortly after the ignition, the temperature and pressure were steady. After Geordi has said that, the audience should hanker after the answer, if it has worked. Only after Data has reportet, that the Temperature has rised to eighty-one million degrees, the audience has known, that it has worked.That's why we can use those values.

But even if not, we have seen, how fast the temperature has risen. If you want, reduce the value by 10 percent and you will still have high enough values.

It was said, that Dr. Timicin has reprogrammed the guidance system of the photon torpedos. It was never said or indicated, that he has changed the hardware. Thus I have to assume, that the shields generator are the same as usually.

They worked on them for hours. Just to rework the guidance system? What's to rework in detail besides just dive into the sun. The gravity itself will do most of the work.

I can't remeber, that they have worked at a torpedo. We have seen several times, how they work at torpedos in other episodes - but not in that episode (as far as I can remember). There is no reason to assume, that the hardware of the torpedo was changed. If that would have been necessary, it may have been easier to build new probes from scratch.
And that it is not as simple as firing the torpedos into the sun and let the gravity do the work should be obviously, because otherwise, it would have been unnecessary, that Tmicin has needed forty years of his life to develop the programming, which will control the photon torpedos - without knowing, in which sun they will be fired. The Federation has just found the star, on which they have done their experiment. Timicin hasn't known it before and it is only logical to assume, that there were a lot of specific data from the star, that have to be programmed into the guidance system.

In Pen Pals, it was explicit said, that they have used torpedo casings to protect the probes, which were fired from the ship in orbit around the planet and were supposed to burrow themself through the surface of the planet to reach the dilithium lattices to shatter them. As was shown, the torpedo casing have survived these high impacts, which were fast enough to bring the torpedos down to the dilithium lattices in the mantle of the planet.

I need more data, and screenshots eventually, of the torps, holes and ground structure, to judge this case. Thing is, did you consider kinetic energy and momentum relative to such impacts, and the possibility that the torps, in that case, were modified to have their shield get also a NDF component?

It was said in the episode, that they have used torpedo casings to protect the probes. Further modifikation were not mentioned. I understand it so, that the standard-torpedo casing was enough to do that job. They have fired the torpedos as usually.

• • • http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als244.jpg
      
      http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als245.jpg

I'm sorry, but trekcore.com has not more screencaps from the torpedos. You have to look, if you can see the episode or find anything alsewhere.

But considering, what the torpedos have done in Half a Life, Pen Pals is not exceptionally.

I'm sure, that Harry Kim has learned, that there is such a thing like a photonic shockwave and the different methods to create one. But not as part of a tactical lesson. And because he couldn't imagine, that he would ever fire a phaser at a photon torpedo in that science class, he wouldn't have thought at a tactical application.
And he was in a battle situation as a newbie with little real experience and a science orientated education. I'm sure, you can understand, that he was a bit under the weather at that moment.
Besides, he has not asked, how a photonic shockwave could be created, but how the Romulan Captain has the photonic shockwave created. He hasn't thought at the obvious answer although he should have be able to guess it. That shows again, that he was a little bit jazzed.

That would be like Starfleet engineers not knowing about never pouring water into a concentrated acid.
I can buy the lack of skill to apply this knowledge to a combat situation, especially for a newbie, but not the idea that it would be so unknown.
Did the captain who fired at the torp enter special parameters for the phaser or something, exploiting an achille heal in a standard torp design?

Besides, I already gave plenty of reasons why if this phenomenon was so well known, it would be exploited more than so rarely.

There would be a whole chapter in naval tactics and strategies books about the danger of torpedoes, and exploiting photonic shockwaves. Many battles would be long range engagements, where the game is to shoot down your torpedoes the closer to your target.
Even more, at close range, no one would ever dare fire torpedoes, because of the fear of any accidental PS. Borg cubes wouldn't bother using a thousand guns, and suicide pilots wouldn't attempt last resort rams or fire all they have in the most traditional way (phaser+torps hurray).

No, sorry, it doesn't fly.

We don't know, what the Romulan Captain has done exactly. And we don't know how well known the photonic shockwave really is and if there are a whole chapter in naval tactics and strategies books about the danger of torpedoes, and exploiting photonic shockwaves. Fact is, that we know near to nothing about photonic shockwaves nor how often they are used. We know only, that we have observed them only once and we know from one other case, in which a photonic shockwave was used (maybe for the first time) in a battle.
Maybe the photonic shockwave is only devastating to ships, that are not prepared, that there are possibilities, to protect one against a photonic shockwave. We don't know and have not enough data to make plausible conclusions with what we have.

The further examples weren't supposed to have anything to do with photonic shockwaves but were meant to give further reasons, why Star Trek battles are short range affairs.

If anything, your examples rather explain fairly well why the captains would try to put as much distance as possible between their ships and the enemy, and thus favour long range engagements.

The whole point is a bit of a gambit: gaining the surprise and reducing your enemy's ability to react, but getting closer to its cannons and making his job easier. As a whole, it surely increases the speed at which a battle outcome is determined.

The job is not necessary easier. At small distances, the angles between two relatic to each other moving ships is far higher. If a ship is only thousand kilmoeters away and moves thousand kilometers to the side, I have to correct the aim of my weapon by 45°. But if that ship is a million kilometers away and moves thousand kilometers to the side, I have to correct the aim of my weapons only by 1,5°. A shorter reaction time increase the problem only.

Optical sensors wouldn't be »Eyeball Mk I«. If you want to look for disruptor bolts with the naked eye, as I assume was you proposal, when you have proposed »Eyeball Mk I« as fire control sensor, you have to position crewmans at each window of the Enterprise. I know, that there would be better fire control sensors. But you wanted »Eyeball Mk I«.

It was, ahem, an image. If our eyes can see the beam, if a minimum of parallax can determine the position of the beam, its beginning and ending, then a civilization that builds robots, human-like AIs and visors and gazillons accute sensors shouldn't have problems to place sensors all the lenght of a ship to get a well defined estimation of the enemy's position.

Again, todays fire control sensors have nothing to do with what a civilization that builds robots, human-like AIs and visors and gazillons accute sensors can do. Kane Starkiller was speaking of todays fire control sensors and not of Starfleets fire control sensors.

But let us stop this part of the debate. We have already established, that the Enterprise has good sensors, that were able to detect disruptor bolt, when they have emerged from the cloacking field and the shield impacts of their own weapons. I see no reason to argue the question, if »today's fire control sensors and computers would be able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back.« and if the naked eye qualifies as »fire control sensors«.

And yet they don't do it. It's possible that their sensors have become so specialized that they're not capable of measuring beam specific emissions with more mundane sensor systems.
I mean, hello, really. If a person can get an idea of where the beam is coming from just by looking at a screencap...

So either you admit that the sensors have severe flaws, or that some kind of jamming was going on, as suggested.
If I were you, I'd certainly opt for the jamming, without necessarily neglecting the possibility that the Federation use so complicated sensors (maybe relying on subspace) that they have left more primitive means behind them. Yet, in that case, it would have greatly helped them.

It's a bit like like if you were dealing with an enemy which can render your antimatter inert (don't ask). You'd sure be happy to still possess old fashioned nuclear warheads onboard.

If you watch that video, you will notice, that they obviously were able to detect the Scimitar fairy well.
I don't see a reason to assume, that the sensors are flawed or that there was jamming. If one or both of these would be true, how do you explain the high targeting precision?
If the sensors were bad, each hit should have been a fluke. But that was obviously not the case.

You are correct, we have never seen a photon torpedo doing evasive maneouvers. But we have never seen, how anyone has tried to shoot down an enemy torpedo. I know only examples, in which the own torpedos were shoot down. Therefore there was simply no need for a photon torpedo to make evasive maneouvers and therefore, the fact that we have not seen any, is meaningless - unless you are able to find a situation, where a photon torpedo should better have done an evasive maneouver.

Are we going into some kind of circular reasoning? They don't evade defensive shots because no one shoots at them. No one shoots at them, so they don't try to evade defensive shots. I couldn't believe such a humourous situation would have been going on for centuries. :P

No, no one shots at them because they know, that they are not able to destroy a photon torpedo because it is protected by strong shields. We already know, that they have strong shields. That is an intangible canon fact. That is not a circular reasoning.
But you are doing it because you don't accept, that torpedo shields are strong enough to withstand most attacks.
Fact is, that if torpedos could be shot down, they would at least try it. Even if you think, that their accuracy is not good, you will have to admit, that it is not that bad either and that, if they would at least try it, there is a realitical chance, that they would hit - at least per coincidence. But they don't even try it.
And if it would be possible to shot down torpedos, why wouldn't they install CIWS or similar systems? Why would that be the case? Are they to stupid?Or do they know, that it is useless? What is the more plausible reason?

As Nemesis has shown, at least the Enterprise E is able to aim her weapons very fast. In several other episodes of Star Trek, we have also seen, that accuracy is not a problem. Considering, what we know from the reaction time, weapons range and accuracy of Star Trek ships, they are able to hit photon torpedos with ease.

You see, that's the super accuracy point I'm not so hot on. There's just lots of claims, and not much evidence for the moment.

There were several episodes named in that thread, which are proving high accuracy.
Already the old Enterprise has fired in »The Changeling« at the only one meter high space probe Nomad at a distance of circa 90'000 kilometer.
In »The Price«, the new Enterprise (D) has shot down a missile.
In »Conundrum«, the Enterprise has shot down several small Lysian sentry vessels.
In »Workforce« the Voyager was able to hit her own torpedo and the Romulan Captain as well.
In »Generation«, there was a not so small chance for the Enterprise in orbit around Veridian III to shot down the probe before it would have reached the sun, although it was supposed to be 45 times faster than light.

Even if you have to nag each example, you have to admit, that it shows, that there would be at least a chance to hit an incoming torpedo if they would only try. But they don't even try. And that again results in the question, why they don't even try to hit it.

That they don't do it, allows only the conclusion, that they wouldn't be able to destroy the photon torpedo. Logical conclusion: the shields are too strong.

They don't seem so. I mean, let's get clear, that captain guy shooting down a torpedo for his neat trick pretty much shows it's possible to... shoot down a torpedo.

It shows, it is possible to hit a torpedo. It doesn't show, that it is possible to destroy an enemy torpedo. As I have already said, it is not difficult to destroy the own torpedo, if you know its shield modulation or order it to drop the shields remotely. But you can't do the same with an enemy torpedo.

[Roondar]

1) A smaller shield (and likewise smaller shield generator) will likely be more powerful relative to a bigger one simply because of the way volumes and surface area scale:

Actually it's exactly the opposite.

Make a sphere's volume 10 times larger, it's surface area just increased by a factor of 100. The same goes the other way. This effectively means that a small shield will be relatively powerful compared to a big shield, all things being equal.

Um no if you increase sphere's volume by a factor of 10 you are increasing it's radius by a factor of 10^(1/3) or 2.15 and it's surface area by a factor of 2.15^2 or 4.64 NOT 100.
Therefore if you increase the length of the ship by 10 you increase it's surface area by 100 but you increase it's volume (and room for the shield generator) by 1000. Therefore the bigger the ship the stronger it's shield is per unit of area.

You are of course correct.

Though I'm pretty sure that a photon torpedo (or in fact any unmanned special purpose vessel) will have relatively more space for a shield generator (no overhead for crew/weapons/etc) than a manned vessel of the same size.

Won't make up for the difference though, the E-D is insanely big compared to a photon torpedo.

[l33telboi]

Therefore if you increase the length of the ship by 10 you increase it's surface area by 100 but you increase it's volume (and room for the shield generator) by 1000. Therefore the bigger the ship the stronger it's shield is per unit of area.

Eh, that assumes the relative size of the shield generator compared to the shield volume is the same in a ship and a torp. Ships have to have stuff like crew quarters, spacious rooms where that crew can work in, as well as a thousand other subsystems. Not to mention that the ship itself uses the volume inside the sphere very badly, as opposed to a torp.

A torp has, what, shields, warhead, and mass-lightentning/propulsion tech? With the volume of the torp filling up the entire volume of the shield.

[Praeothmin]

Eh, that assumes the relative size of the shield generator compared to the shield volume is the same in a ship and a torp. Ships have to have stuff like crew quarters, spacious rooms where that crew can work in, as well as a thousand other subsystems. Not to mention that the ship itself uses the volume inside the sphere very badly, as opposed to a torp.

A torp has, what, shields, warhead, and mass-lightentning/propulsion tech? With the volume of the torp filling up the entire volume of the shield.

If I remember correctly, we have seen ST ships extend their shields a few times over other, vulnerable ships, and in every instance, it was mentioned how that weakened the shields cause their volume increased.
So it seams that the closer to the hull the shields are projected, the stronger they will be.

Shields of a Photorp are proportionately closer to the torpedoe's hull then shields of a ship, so they should also be proportionately stronger (as Roondar also stated).

[Kane Starkiller]

Eh, that assumes the relative size of the shield generator compared to the shield volume is the same in a ship and a torp. Ships have to have stuff like crew quarters, spacious rooms where that crew can work in, as well as a thousand other subsystems. Not to mention that the ship itself uses the volume inside the sphere very badly, as opposed to a torp.

A torp has, what, shields, warhead, and mass-lightentning/propulsion tech? With the volume of the torp filling up the entire volume of the shield.

Take a look at a ship like Voyager for example. We can assume that ship has roughly the volume of 700,000m3 based on it's length of 345m and stated mass of 700,000t and density of 1000kg/m3. A photon torpedo has a length of some 2m, 50cm wide and 50cm tall. That is a volume of 0.5m3 which makes Voyager 1,400,000 times bigger. Assuming rough ovoid shield for both objects Voyager's shield surface area is roughly 30,000 times greater. Assuming relatively same space is given to shield generators in both cases Voyager's shields will be 46 times stronger per unit of area than those of a photon torpedo. So even accounting for extra crew space (and remember that Voyager is extremely lightly crewed: 140 crewmembers compared to 5000 for Nimitz class carrier) starship shields should be much more powerful. And as the ships grow the effect only gets worse.

If I remember correctly, we have seen ST ships extend their shields a few times over other, vulnerable ships, and in every instance, it was mentioned how that weakened the shields cause their volume increased.
So it seams that the closer to the hull the shields are projected, the stronger they will be.

Shields of a Photorp are proportionately closer to the torpedoe's hull then shields of a ship, so they should also be proportionately stronger (as Roondar also stated).

Obviously shield strength will decrease as you increase the surface area. The point is that volume (and thus reactor room) grows faster than surface so larger ships will have relatively stronger shields.
Naturally this is not always the case. Borg ships for example are extremely weak for their size. The reason is most likely that they use those small "distribution nodes" for power generation instead of large reactors so they don't benefit from increase in volume.