So can Trek ships use phasers to shoot down torps?

[Who is like God arbour]

In »Generation«, there was a not so small chance for the Enterprise in orbit around Veridian III to shot down the probe before it would have reached the sun, although it was supposed to be 45 times faster than light.

I'm going to ask for more details, even if I think I understand that the Enterprise couldn't hit that probe because it flew at 45c (warp how much?).

Worf has not stated, that they would be unable to shot down the probe. (Worf: Sir, according to my calculations, a solar probe launched from either the Klingon ship or the planet's surface will take eleven seconds to reach the star. However, since we do not know the exact point of origin, it will take us between eight and fifteen seconds to lock our weapons onto it.) That implies, that if they are able to lock their weapons fast enough, they would be able to shoot down the probe. Otherwise Worf would have said, that they are not able to do it and the time, they would need, to lock their weapons on the probe would be irrelevant.

The probe would have been started from Veridian III or its orbit. Veriridian III has had live on it. It is inside the zone, in which planets are able to develop live. Assuming a distance similar to Earth (~150 million kilometers), that is covered in only eleven seconds gives a velocity of circa 45 times as fast as light.

Even if you shorten the distance, the speed will stay very fast and clearly several times over light speed.



But that was not the point. These examples has shown, that there is a high accuracy. Even if, to hit a photon torpedo, a higher accuracy would be necessary, with the accacy they have, they have a good chance to hit the torpedo at least per coincidence.

But they have never ever tried to shoot down an enemy torpedo. How does that come?

[Who is like God arbour]

They don't seem so. I mean, let's get clear, that captain guy shooting down a torpedo for his neat trick pretty much shows it's possible to... shoot down a torpedo.

It shows, it is possible to hit a torpedo. It doesn't show, that it is possible to destroy an enemy torpedo. As I have already said, it is not difficult to destroy the own torpedo, if you know its shield modulation or order it to drop the shields remotely. But you can't do the same with an enemy torpedo.

Ah but do we have any evidence that teh Romulan captain exploited the shield frequency or even had the torpedo's shield lowered? I bet that if the glow is still visible, it does gives a no to the second question.

No, we know nothing about the Romulan Captain. But that doesn't mean, that he is stupid and wouldn't exploit obviously opportunities.

[Who is like God arbour]

You know, thinking of it, I think I may have another idea about why ships don't use phasers against torps.
There's been several occurances of things cascading backwards along the phaser beam. I've read one a while when the Enterprise hit some mineral in the crust of a planet, and another case recently, when reading stuff about Borgs and S8472 I think.

Maybe doing so generates some effect that goes back into the... oh screw that. It's stupid. If it was true, then all shields would be made in such a way that no phasers would be used, a bit like lasers against Dune's infantry shields.
Well, just a bit because in Dune, they don't do it otherwise they get some kind of nuclear firework.

Or, wait. Maybe this can work, but let's say that they don't apply it to ship's shields because it would destroy both the assaulted ship and firing ship at the same time, for the same reason that shooting at a torpedo would destroy the torpedo and destroy the ship's phaser banks, and probably cause lots of secondary damage, maybe even resulting into a chain reaction destroying the whole ship.

Not a super explanation either, but it fits with most standard ships. No one would put such shields on ships, but would gladly put such shields on torpedoes. After all, ships' shields don't glow like torp shields do.

What is your point?

[Who is like God arbour]

Excuse me, that I have splitted the huge post, I would have got, if I would have responded in only one post, in several smaller posts. It is easier to handle.

[Who is like God arbour]

Either the star from Half a Life was unusually low density and temperature or more likely Worf was incorrect about the torpedo actually going anywhere near the core. Otherwise you could stick a bunch of photon torpedoes to the hull of a shuttle and have it be practically invulnerable.

Have you read that thread?
Because there were explanations, why it is not possible, to simply »stick a bunch of photon torpedoes to the hull of a shuttle and have it be practically invulnerable«. If you wnat to object the explanations, please do so. But don't let us start again at the beginning because you was to lazy to read that thread.

[TheRedFear]

Either the star from Half a Life was unusually low density and temperature or more likely Worf was incorrect about the torpedo actually going anywhere near the core. Otherwise you could stick a bunch of photon torpedoes to the hull of a shuttle and have it be practically invulnerable.

Why would they need to? Shuttles can already dip in and out of Solar Coronas with Metaphasic Shields

The E-D has hidden from Borg inside a Sun TWICE. The the first time was way before Metaphasic Shields were invented. I figure the only reason they needed the metaphasic shield the second time was they were battle-damaged in multiple systems, and the ship was being operated by an inexperienced skeleton crew that second time.

Hell Martok's old jalopy Bird of Prey, and two Dominion Locusts skimmed the photosphere of a sun without any apprecciable trouble.

Trek shields rather routinely mock the power of the sun. I've no trouble at all beleiving that Half a Life example of Torp Shields doing the same.

In fact, look at the Series 5 Long range Tactical Missiles from that episode of Voyager(Cant recall the exact name of the episode, yet I can recall that they were called Series Five Long Range tactical Missiles....go figure). These things were no bigger than Federation Torps, yet heavily shielded enough that Voyager couldn't destroy them with direct assault.

[Kane Starkiller]

You left out the part where various Fed ships get routinely damaged and destroy by solar surface events. Therefore there is no way they will be able to reach the core where the energy they would receive would shoot up many orders of magnitude. Observed destructions trump Worfs claim.

[Who is like God arbour]

You left out the part where various Fed ships get routinely damaged and destroy by solar surface events. Therefore there is no way they will be able to reach the core where the energy they would receive would shoot up many orders of magnitude. Observed destructions trump Worfs claim.

1. Please show me, where you have observed »various Fed ships get routinely damaged and destroy by solar surface events«. I can't remember to have observed, that a ship got damaged or destroyed. All I can remember, is that it was said, that the ship could be destroyed, if they stay longer. But that is dialogue and you don't seem to attach importance to the dialogue.
   
   According to your logic, because I have never observed, how a Fed ships gets damaged or even destroyed by a »solar surface event«, although they were even inside of a corona, there is no proof, that a »solar surface event« is dangerous to a ship.
   
   All you have is dialogue and in your opinion, Starfleet personal is so stupid, that you can't trust, that, if they say, that the ship would be destroyed, if it stays, it really would get destroyed. After all, we have neither observed, how the ship get destroyed, nor how it get damaged. Ergo: It was able to withstand the conditions in the corona.
2. There are no observed destructions. Even if you would have observed the destruction of a ship, you have not observed the destruction of a photon torpedo. Ergo: there is nothing, that would trump Worfs claim.

[Mr. Oragahn]

From your own quote, we know, that the torpedos have entered the core and that their shields were holding while going further into the core. Only then (after they have reached the appointed position due to their modified guidance system), the ignition was startet. I assume, that the torpedos were destroyed at that moment. The ignition hasn't caused immediately effects. Pressure and temperature were for a short time steady. And only after that time, the temperature increased.

But that means, that we know, that the torpedos, after they have crossed the different layers of the star and for a short time, after they have entered the core,

Yes, they did. But look at the calcs, and consider that the most intense region of a red giant, in this case, is in the shell. The calcs I made precisely considered the luminosity at what would be the photosphere, though this is more a region than a well defined surface here, again because red giants have a more diffused outer limit.

This means that the radiation peak will happen when the torpedo will be in that region. The radiation levels when approaching the star, and when closing in on the core, well be lower, though being inside the star, the radiations will still be superior than the levels while travelling through the corona.

For the story, I went through two cases. One was from a red giant that would fit with the episode, the other from a small red star that would fit with visuals.
Maybe I wasn't clear, but my point is that the star we see in the episode has an outlined surface, we can see it, it's not a red haze, like wiki says red giants' outer layers are.
So I took both cases, one being from the script, the other from the visuals.
Thing is, it's just fluke that both results end being so similar.

For the record:
Red giant: I = 6.537 e6 W/m²

Red dwarf or so: I = 15.8 e6 W/m²

Let's get a shield surface area.

I picked dimensions from here.

Dimensions: 2.1 x 0.76 x 0.45 meters

The glow is rather "cloudy", it doesn't have a very clear surface, like a membrane. We've seen glows being more hull hugging than others. For example, the films did feature red glows which looked like bars. However, most of the show's glows are "mini stars". That said, quantum torpedoes, notably fired by the Defiant, when seen from the side or above, have glows which are less spherical, and more faithful to the shape of the torpedo itself.
That said, I'll stick with a spherical surface. Let's say it has a diameter of 3 meters, which is more than enough to full encompass the torpedo.

That's a surface area of 28.27 m².
Say 29 m².

Now let's say that the torpedo remains inside the red giant's vague photosphere for ten minutes. That's for the upper limit, if I'm correct.

E = T * I * A
E = 600 * 6.537 * 29
E = 113,743.8 e6 J

That's roughly 27.18 tons of TNT.

The result using the second value won't be much different, you won't even get a difference of 1 OOM.
Now, it's possible that the shields are stronger than this, but there is no evidence from this episode that they could withstand the firepower of a single phaser bank.

And we know, that the temperatur in the core, before it was increasing, was approximate sixty million degrees Kelvin and the pressure eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter. For a short while (the time between entering the the core and the ignition), the torpedos have withstand that conditions.

That temperature was a consequence of the exotic reaction going on:


28 INT. ENGINEERING

Geordi works at his console... Timicin at his.

GEORDI
Torpedoes now entering the stellar
core.

TIMICIN
Their shields are holding.
Guidance systems normal.

GEORDI
Ignition sequence... six
seconds... three seconds... Now.

STAR TREK: "Half A Life" -REV. 2/28/91 - ACT TWO 20.

29 EXT. PRAXILLUS (OPTICAL)

We see the massive PRIMARY EXPLOSION deep in the star's
core... stirring its fiery red surface.

30 INT. ENGINEERING (OPTICAL)

Geordi reads off data as...

GEORDI
Shock wave patterns within
predicted range. Seventeen
hundred percent rise in gamma
radiation levels. Helium
fusion rate increasing...

TIMICIN
(concern showing)
What about the heat and pressure
levels?

GEORDI
Steady so far. Density at eleven
hundred grams per cubic
centimeter. Temperature
approaching sixty million degrees
Kelvin.

TIMICIN
We want it to stabilize at two
hundred and twenty million.

I'm no astronomer and can also only use wikipedia. According to it, in a Red Giant, if it is heavier than 0.4 but less than 2.57 solar masses, the addition of helium to the core by shell hydrogen fusing will cause a helium flash — a rapid burst of helium fusing in the core, after which the star will commence a brief period of helium fusing before beginning another ascent of the red giant branch.

But it is irrelevant, what a Red Giant can do or can not do.

We'd first have to show that such an event is occuring.
I'm not sure how you attempt this.

No, because it is irrelevant.
We know the conditions of the core shortly before they have changed after the ignition. And only these values are relevant.

As seen, these conditions you speak of existed after the reaction begun, not before.

I can't remeber, that they have worked at a torpedo. We have seen several times, how they work at torpedos in other episodes - but not in that episode (as far as I can remember). There is no reason to assume, that the hardware of the torpedo was changed. If that would have been necessary, it may have been easier to build new probes from scratch.
And that it is not as simple as firing the torpedos into the sun and let the gravity do the work should be obviously, because otherwise, it would have been unnecessary, that Tmicin has needed forty years of his life to develop the programming, which will control the photon torpedos - without knowing, in which sun they will be fired. The Federation has just found the star, on which they have done their experiment. Timicin hasn't known it before and it is only logical to assume, that there were a lot of specific data from the star, that have to be programmed into the guidance system.

Ticmin obviously had some blueprints or some basis to work from, since he's been devising that program for 40 years or so, and it *only* took hours to get it applied to the torps.
We only see them for mere minutes, while we know they've been working on this for much more time. Therefore it's hard to say they never fiddled with torps before or even after that.

Timicin didn't have the resources to do so, and apparently (and logically), shielded torps were most suited for that operation, but even them needed a modification.
We can consider, though, and rather safely, that the many hours spent on the system, was Timicin adapting his program to the torps' systems.
But Timicin did make changes on the guidance systems.

I'll agree that there's no evidence that shields were modified. I didn't consider the strong possibility that it would take so much time to make Timicin's project fit with a Starfleet torpedo.

Mostly because I didn't consider that it would require such a massive reconfiguration and years of work just to have a torpedo fly towards the center of a star.

I understand this as a concession.

Only for further explanation: It is not, that the gravity would pull the torpedos to the core of the star - as you may imagine it. There is a lot of pressure coming form the core that would press the torpedos out of the star. They would have to be flying active to the core against the stream and hold their course to reach their appointed positions. I imagine, that this is no easy task and that there are many calculations necessary.

The outer shell's reactions actually play a lot to the compression of the core. The energy liberated in the shell, and thus the expansion of matter in that zone, would be pushing the torpedo towards the core once it would have moved beyond the shell.
Add this to the gravity, and you're done.
Look, they even dialed down reactants for the engines, which means going through wasn't much of a big deal:


GEORDI
(mid-discussion)
Is that why you reset the torpedo
sustainer engines to run on less
reactants?

TIMICIN
Exactly... once we were able to
protect the triggering mechanism,
the flight engine power levels
could be minimized...
(moving to another
console)
... now if we take a look at
another simulation, you'll see
that the temperature should
stabilize at two-twenty...


Which incidentally could mean there was more reactant, maybe antimatter, to power the rest, eventually the shields.

It was said in the episode, that they have used torpedo casings to protect the probes. Further modifikation were not mentioned. I understand it so, that the standard-torpedo casing was enough to do that job. They have fired the torpedos as usually.

• • • http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als244.jpg
      
      http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als245.jpg

I'm sorry, but trekcore.com has not more screencaps from the torpedos. You have to look, if you can see the episode or find anything alsewhere.

But considering, what the torpedos have done in Half a Life, Pen Pals is not exceptionally.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 40&page=12

Mmh... let's see. First, it's an interesting torpedo formation with have here, with the four of them lined as a wall.
That said, there's no information to be used there. I did expect the glow to be present.

But we have proof that the probes were modified:


WORF
We are modifying Class One probes
so they become resonators. We
will then use torpedo casings
to protect the probes once they
begin burrowing beneath the
surface.

The probes will dig the holes, not the torpedoes.

So that leaves us with Half a Life, which in my opinion doesn't require any further calculations, and Pen Pals, which is ruled out because the diggin' is done by the modified probes.

And how do you imagine the probes digging the holes, while inside of the torpedo casings or how do you imagine the torpedo casings protecting the probes, while these are digging holes?

And how do you imagine that digging holes at all?

As I have understoot it, the torpedo casings with the probes in it, are fired from the Enterprise and penetrate the surface at the impact to reach the lattices. Maybe, the propulsion of the torpedos are driving them further after the impact.

But they don't stop, let the probes out, which then begin to dig holes.

How do I imagine that? I don't know. I don't care much. It's Star Trek, it's technobabble all the way, and they speak about wtazit resonances that can break wtazat crystals that shake planets and eventually make them go boom like that or something.
I'm sorry, but you can't switch standards, and suddenly play the card of hard science fiction.
Especially when the script itself reveals that the probes will manage to drill through, via *some* mean.
Maybe there's an opening in the torpedo, maybe the resonance stuff send waves that weakens the rock or whatever. It's just that, it's not much important whatever exotic system they use to do so. It's just precisely said that it happens.

We don't know, what the Romulan Captain has done exactly.

Oh but if he has done something very special and specific, then the PS shoudn't be a problem on a regular basis, because it precisely requires special circumstances and former knowledge to be applied in a certain way.

I mean, no matter how you swing it, it's always going to bite your butt. The whole phenomenon brings more problems than solutions. Either it's another trick of the day, or the writers trying to explain why shooting torps is bad, but if the second option is right, they didn't push the thought very far.
the only way not to blame the writers lack of foreseeing is to consider a PS to be very rare and hard to achieve.

I have meant, that he could have created the photonic shockwave in another way, than the Emergency Command Hologram has. Maybe has hasn't even used a torpedo (do Romulans use photon torpedos?) or if, he hasn't shoot it down with a phaser (do Romulans use phasers?).
Maybe he has created a kind of mine?
We don't know it.
The Emergency Command Hologram has merely stated, that he has created a photonic shockwave - not how - although I admit, that it was implied, that it was the same way, the Emergency Command Hologram has created it.
But it is irrelevant, what the Romulan Captain has done exactly.

Don't they use plasma torpedoes or something?
Let's end this. It's more speculation, the more we get into it, the more nebulous it gets, and obviously, there's little info on PS, which is enough to dismiss that as an excuse.

And we don't know how well known the photonic shockwave really is and if there are a whole chapter in naval tactics and strategies books about the danger of torpedoes, and exploiting photonic shockwaves. Fact is, that we know near to nothing about photonic shockwaves nor how often they are used. We know only, that we have observed them only once and we know from one other case, in which a photonic shockwave was used (maybe for the first time) in a battle.
Maybe the photonic shockwave is only devastating to ships, that are not prepared, that there are possibilities, to protect one against a photonic shockwave. We don't know and have not enough data to make plausible conclusions with what we have.

It's precisely that glaring lack of data that makes the idea of not shooting down torps because of PS most unlikely.

Again, no matter how you look at it, I don't see the PS idea to be of any use. It brings far more problems than solutions.

That's stupid. Because we, the audience, has a »glaring lack of data« doesn't mean, that all the protagonists have a »glaring lack of data«.

It is not plausible to assume, that they wouldn't have researched the photonic shockwave. It is furthermore to assume, that the photonic shockwave as a phenomenon was already known, before its first application in a battle. How else could have the Romulan Captain have got the idea to create such a photonic shockwave.

And that brings back my conjecture, that Kim has known the phenomenon but hasn't thought at a tactical application in the stress of a battle, inexperienced as he was.

Kim is literally out of the problem. If a PS was no secret to the highest spheres of Starfleet intelligence, engineering and strategy, things would be much different. I already cited ways to exploit this in battles, and battles themselves would be much different than they are now.

The job is not necessary easier. At small distances, the angles between two relatic to each other moving ships is far higher. If a ship is only thousand kilmoeters away and moves thousand kilometers to the side, I have to correct the aim of my weapon by 45°. But if that ship is a million kilometers away and moves thousand kilometers to the side, I have to correct the aim of my weapons only by 1,5°. A shorter reaction time increase the problem only.

Which would make captains favour long range fights, not close ones. That said, don't take it badly, but I have never been really impressed by the military aspect of Trek ships until the Defiant came into the dance. From time to time, you may have had your ships with aft launching tubes, but they are few.

The Defiant has the advantage of being compact and extremely manoeuverable. It's one of the rare ships which can benefit from shorter ranges.
The bigger ones, even if some of them have displayed nice curving abilities in First Contact, still need to manoeuver a lot more to present their heavier weapons at a good angle.
And there was the Voyager, which at some point fired torpedoes from its sides at bioships. I don't know if it was a late modification, but it was a good feature.

Well, I digress. As a whole, it doesn't help much here.

Yes, you have digressed a little bit. But that's not the point. The point is, that you are overseeing, that, if a battle happens, usually at least one of the ship, if not both of the ships are wanting to battle and win. They usually have no interesst in prolonging the battle. The ship, that is convinced to win, will search its opponent and try to press it into the battle and don't give it the chance to escape. That means for most weapons efficience and most accuracy, it will try to get as close as possible. That doesn't mean, that a battle could not occur over 100'000 km distance. But that will only prolong the battle.

Huh, that's just invention. There's no sacred rule that says a battle has to occur within 10 minutes or something.
What I agree on is that some Starfleet ships are obviously more apt at close range battles than others, which suffer from inappropriate weapon placement and inferior manoeuverability.

Again, todays fire control sensors have nothing to do with what a civilization that builds robots, human-like AIs and visors and gazillons accute sensors can do. Kane Starkiller was speaking of todays fire control sensors and not of Starfleets fire control sensors.

Sorry, I get a bit lost, and I'm not really concerned about who started the argument or what. My point is that it would require very little technology marvel to have robotic eyes (your sensors) and computers to extrapolate the position of the enemy ship from the observation of the beams.

It's extremely basic.

It's not. The problem is not (today), to have a camera. The problem is to programm a computer to regocnize, what the camera is seeing. That is very difficult.
Look at the programs, that are written to regocnice faces (for security) or streets (to steer cars) and similar things. They are not really able to regocnize, what they see, how we regocnize it. There are advancements but the technoloy is still in the fledgling stages.
And to regocnize a bolt and calculate its point of origin in a 3d room is even more complex.
Maybe there are systems, that are able to do it. But I don't know of one and that was, why I have asked Kane Starkiller to provide proof, that such a system indeed exists today.

It doesn't matter. That's just so wrong. We already have programs which can recognize silhouettes and patterns from images which are just sums of horrible pixels and shades of grey.
You're defending an absurd stance. Starfleet has good sensors and impressive AIs.
They just have to make an image of that shot, recognize the beam, which, excuse me, is not that hard. Photoshop is perfectly able to make such selections, with pixel tolerances.
It has to understand how thick the beam, consider when photons hit, which is peanuts, and just make a simple calculation based on the sensors' "angle of vision", which is what Sarli does when he calculates distances for example.
It's no magic, and I don't think Sarli's simple methods would outclass the sensors of Starfleet in a distant future.
Technically, you may not even need more than two sensors, since what they would calculate is the coordinates of planes. See, from a sensor's point of view, the beam could be nothing more than the edge, the intersection, of a plane, where both the sensor and the beam are on that same plane.
If you don't see what I mean, imagine that the sensor is your eye, and the beam is just a line on a plane which the eye also belongs to. Actually, one sensor could already pick a very reliable estimation of the distances and positions. Sensors placed elsehwere would just refine the calculations.

Therefore I refer to my former suggestions.

Fact is, that if torpedos could be shot down, they would at least try it. Even if you think, that their accuracy is not good, you will have to admit, that it is not that bad either and that, if they would at least try it, there is a realitical chance, that they would hit - at least per coincidence. But they don't even try it.
And if it would be possible to shot down torpedos, why wouldn't they install CIWS or similar systems? Why would that be the case? Are they to stupid? Or do they know, that it is useless? What is the more plausible reason?

Isn't it that most of the time torpedoes are fired, most engagements occured at close ranges?

See again the problem of vector probability. In the heat of a battle, at close ranges, and with the idea, somehow, that it would take a bit of time to lock on torpedoes adequately, you see why as a whole they don't bother much.

It's not a superb excuse, but by far, it's one of the best.

Strong shields and PS being out, there's not many contenders left.

Why are strong shields out? Where was ever stated, that the shields are not strong enough?

Your explanation doesn't makes sense. Even if the probability to hit a photon torpedo is low, it is still better to try it then to close the eyes and wait for the hit.

And usually, the torpedos are coming from the same direction, in which the enemy ship is. And that would be the direction, in which the weapons are aimed anyway.



And even if it would be difficult for the main weapons, to react as fast as necessary, why wouldn't they simply install CIWS around the ship. Small canons similar tho the phalanx, which are able to take an oncoming torpedo under rapid fire? If strong shields would be out, that would be the obvious solution. And that solution doesn't has to be invented. We already have such systems today.



But they neither try to fire at a torpedo nor do they install CIWS or similar systems. And that does make only sense, if they know that both would be futile.

I already replied to that question. It's in the very bit you quoted.
I asked you for evidence that starfleet ships can display super high accuracy with phasers against small and fast targets, no matter the range, within little times.
You have provided some examples, and I dispute them, because they're not evidence for what matters.

Now, why they don't try?... that was the point of my suggestion. See the end of this post, below.

There were several episodes named in that thread, which are proving high accuracy.
Already the old Enterprise has fired in »The Changeling« at the only one meter high space probe Nomad at a distance of circa 90'000 kilometer.

Huh, that was a phaser shot? What were the conditions?

We are speaking of accuray. Their sensors were able to find Nomad and program the torpedo with it as target. The torpedo was fired and has hit Nomad. That is, what I would call accuracy.

This doesn't involve phasers. Shooting a torpedo that travels a while to hit a distant probe or whatever, something that obviously wouldn't bother being shielded and outmanoeuvering a torp, is irrelevant.
Besides, if they had to reprogram the torpedo, it would show that even an immediate interception of what is nothing more than a probe, would take time, and couldn't be used as a defense ready to act.

In »The Price«, the new Enterprise (D) has shot down a missile.

This one was adressed. There wasn't any surprise at all, and all parameters were known.

Nevertheless, they had have to aim their weapons to hit the small missile. Even if they wouldn't have been surprised, they would have to have the accuracy to be able to hit such a small missile with nearly no lead time.

In the The Price, the Enterprise fired two shots at the Ferengi missile. The second shot entirely missed the missile by many meters, while the first one intercepted it.
That's, again, in a situation where there wasn't much of elusive manoeuvers at play. Worf knew where the missile would start from, where it would be headed at, and was ready to press the button.
The missile just flew straight on, nothing proves that the range was particularily big, and it still took two shots to do so.

But again, if you're going to ask why they don't fire more often to intercept torpedoes, I'd invite you to read the end of that post.

In »Conundrum«, the Enterprise has shot down several small Lysian sentry vessels.

I think I remember seeing that on Youtube. Excuse me, but I also recall that they were still big enough, they didn't fly terribly fast, and were shot down within less than 2 kilometers or so.
Got any video by chance?

They were bigger than a photon torpedo, but there were more of them and the Enterprise has shot not one after another but simultaneously.
That shots has shown, that each segment of the phaser stripe is able to shot independently.

So what? This doesn't argue for super accuracy at short ranges against targets with little to no predictable paths. As I recall it, the ships themselves were flying straight ahead, not make curves nor loops. And still were big ("twenty-nine meters in length"). And shot down at a close range.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 13&page=14

In »Workforce« the Voyager was able to hit her own torpedo and the Romulan Captain as well.

Did this torpedo have anything special that would have prevented the Voyager from hitting its own torpedo?
Were the sensors eluded? Did the crew ignore the torpedo's target, vector or behaviour?
What was the range?

The torpedo was as far away as the two enemy ships. Otherwise it wouldn't have been able to detonate between them. Surly was the path of the own torpedo know. But it demonstrates nevertheless great accuracy.

Not great accuracy, just acceptable accuracy when you're firing at a thing, which you've fired from your butthole, and that flies straight ahead, and still at a short range.
Yes, it's good range, but it's not a case where the ship was overwhelmed by an enemy firing torpedoes making curves and so on.

In »Generation«, there was a not so small chance for the Enterprise in orbit around Veridian III to shot down the probe before it would have reached the sun, although it was supposed to be 45 times faster than light.

I'm going to ask for more details, even if I think I understand that the Enterprise couldn't hit that probe because it flew at 45c (warp how much?).

Worf has not stated, that they would be unable to shot down the probe. (Worf: Sir, according to my calculations, a solar probe launched from either the Klingon ship or the planet's surface will take eleven seconds to reach the star. However, since we do not know the exact point of origin, it will take us between eight and fifteen seconds to lock our weapons onto it.) That implies, that if they are able to lock their weapons fast enough, they would be able to shoot down the probe. Otherwise Worf would have said, that they are not able to do it and the time, they would need, to lock their weapons on the probe would be irrelevant.

The probe would have been started from Veridian III or its orbit. Veriridian III has had live on it. It is inside the zone, in which planets are able to develop live. Assuming a distance similar to Earth (~150 million kilometers), that is covered in only eleven seconds gives a velocity of circa 45 times as fast as light.

Even if you shorten the distance, the speed will stay very fast and clearly several times over light speed.



But that was not the point. These examples has shown, that there is a high accuracy. Even if, to hit a photon torpedo, a higher accuracy would be necessary, with the accacy they have, they have a good chance to hit the torpedo at least per coincidence.

But they have never ever tried to shoot down an enemy torpedo. How does that come?

But again, that's a case where they knew where the unique probe would go. Worf never says how many times they'd need to fire, now from how far.
The probe was going to fly straight ahead towards the sun.
Hell, it doesn't even say they were going to use phasers.

You know, thinking of it, I think I may have another idea about why ships don't use phasers against torps.
There's been several occurances of things cascading backwards along the phaser beam. I've read one a while when the Enterprise hit some mineral in the crust of a planet, and another case recently, when reading stuff about Borgs and S8472 I think.

Maybe doing so generates some effect that goes back into the... oh screw that. It's stupid. If it was true, then all shields would be made in such a way that no phasers would be used, a bit like lasers against Dune's infantry shields.
Well, just a bit because in Dune, they don't do it otherwise they get some kind of nuclear firework.

Or, wait. Maybe this can work, but let's say that they don't apply it to ship's shields because it would destroy both the assaulted ship and firing ship at the same time, for the same reason that shooting at a torpedo would destroy the torpedo and destroy the ship's phaser banks, and probably cause lots of secondary damage, maybe even resulting into a chain reaction destroying the whole ship.

Not a super explanation either, but it fits with most standard ships. No one would put such shields on ships, but would gladly put such shields on torpedoes. After all, ships' shields don't glow like torp shields do.

What is your point?

Finding an explanation to why phasers aren't used against torpedoes.
Point: phasers react with shields, and a reaction can shoot back towards the phaser banks, along the beam, and damage the ship shooting at the torpedoes.
Even if it destroy the torpedoes with utter ease, it's a danger to spaceships on close range.
Basically, torpedo shields are boobytrapped.

[TheRedFear]

You left out the part where various Fed ships get routinely damaged and destroy by solar surface events. Therefore there is no way they will be able to reach the core where the energy they would receive would shoot up many orders of magnitude. Observed destructions trump Worfs claim.

Examples? I seriously doubt you have any, but by all means, please provide some examples.

The only one that comes to MY mind is when the E-D was trapped in a Dyson Sphere and being drawn toward an artificial sun within. And due to it's artificial nature, we really don't know just how potent it was. Furthermore, at the time the E-D was being plagued with random system collapses due to a nanovirus computer infection that was arbitrarily shutting down ship systems. Note they didn't have any problems. They wer ejust concerned. And they had good reason to be concerned if their shields were hit by this virus when they were drawn in too close to the artificial sun

Then, like I salready mentioned there was the second occasion the E-D hid from the Borg in the sun. The first time they did it without any problem. The second time, when the ship had taken battle damage, and was being operated by half a dozen inexperienced crewmen, the E-D needed the Metaphasic shield. Clearly the ship was far from 100% in that example. And even in this example, the only problem they had was that the standard shields were too weakened to do the job so they had to switch to the Metaphasic Shield

I would posit that if you can actually come up with even one example of Federation shields being thwarted by suns, they would be like the above examples. Situations where the ship in question was not at 100%


Edit: Also, according to my astrologist friend, the Corona of the sun is where it's hottest, and msot dangeorus. If you can make it past a sun's corona, the worst is essentially over. Dipping in and out of the photosphere and core isn't much of a problem after that.

[Cpl Kendall]

You mean astronomer, right? An astrologist is someone who foretells the future using the zodiac.

[Roondar]

Just to point this out again (because it was not addressed yet):

There is more to piercing a star to reach the core than merely surviving the thermal output of said star. You can't just ignore the gravity and matter interactions (i.e. moving through the star's gas/plasma itself).

As to the generations example: it's pretty clearly implied by Worf that if they have the time to lock on, they'll be able to destroy the missile. The problem wasn't it's speed, the problem was locking on to it.

[TheRedFear]

You mean astronomer, right? An astrologist is someone who foretells the future using the zodiac.

Astronomer, yes my mistake. She did mention there being antimatter in the sun as well which could be a problem, but hell trek ships use antimatter for fuel and torpedo warheads. I'm pretty sure their shields can handle the antimatter in there.

[Who is like God arbour]

Mr. Oragahn:

I lose gradually the zest to continue that debate, if you don't read, what I have written and don't answer to that and not anything else. And we get more and more side issue, that are not important. I try to reduce to the main questions now.

1. 1. Concerning »Half a Life«, maybe it would be advisable, if you watch that episode at an opportunity. It seems to me, that you don't really know the episode. The script can you bring only so far. But if you don't even read it correctly, it can not even do that.
      
      
      • • • GEORDI:
            • Torpedoes now entering the stellar core.
            
            
            TIMICIN:
            • Their shields are holding. Guidance systems normal.
            
            
            GEORDI:
            • Ignition sequence... six seconds... three seconds... Now.
              
              Shock wave patterns within predicted range. Seventeen hundred percent rise in gamma radiation levels. Helium fusion rate increasing...
            
            
            TIMICIN:
            • (concern showing)
              What about the heat and pressure levels?
            
            
            GEORDI:
            • Steady so far. Density at eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter. Temperature approaching sixty million degrees Kelvin.
            
            
            TIMICIN:
            • We want it to stabilize at two hundred and twenty million.
            
            
            DATA:
            • Pressure wave harmonics dispersing. Temperature in target zone increasing ... to eighty-one million degrees.
            
            
            GEORDI:
            • Still rising. Ninety million degrees Kelvin... And now one hundred ten million.
              (to Timicin)
              Looking good.
      
      
      I have underlined the ipmortant quotes. What can we extract from that script?
      
      1. That, after the torpedos have entered the stellar core, their shields were holding and that the ignition has happened a short time after they have entered the stellar core.
         
         • Ergo: The torpedos have not only survived the transit through the different layers of that star in a few seconds, thus with a very high speed, but also for a short time the conditions in the core of the star.
      2. After the ignition, the heat and pressure levels were steady so far with a density at eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter and a temperature approaching sixty million degrees Kelvin. The temperature has only started to increase to eighty-one million degrees after the pressure wave harmonics have dispersed.
         
         • Ergo: The conditions in the core of the star were steady, before the pressure wave harmonics have dispersed and the temperature has started to increase to eighty-one million degrees. If the temperature and pressure would have changed at once after the ignition, Geordi wouldn't have said, that they were steady so far.
           
           And, as I have said already - and as you would know, if you would have seen the episode or could correctly remember it - but what the script can't convey - it was intended to build up suspense with the question, if it has worked. As Geordi has answered Timicin's question, »what about the heat and pressure levels« with »steady so far«, the audience should get the impression, that the experiment could fail and that the temperature would not increase as hoped.
   2. Another question would be, if that star could have been a Red Giant. But, because we have values, that queation is rather irrelevant because there is no need to fall back on the values of Red Giants.
      
      Furthermore, it is not advisable to fall back on values of other Red Giants because the term Red Giant is relative. Massive stars in transition from core hydrogen burning to core helium burning have cooler photospheres than during their main-sequence phase, but they can still be hotter and bluer than the Sun. This is particularly true of very massive stars, which in their red giant phase form a class of objects called supergiants; these stars generate ten thousand times the power of the Sun, but can range in color from very blue to very red relative to the Sun. Insofar, to know, that the star in the epsiode was a Red Giant, is of no avail.
   3. And, besides the conditions in the star itself, you have to consider the effects, the high speed of the torpedo through the star would have.
2. Concerning accuracy. You still nag at the given examples for high accuracy - although I have explicit said already, that »even if, to hit a photon torpedo, a higher accuracy would be necessary, with the accacy they have, they have a good chance to hit the torpedo at least per coincidence« or »even if the probability to hit a photon torpedo is low, it is still better to try it then to close the eyes and wait for the hit« or »even if it would be difficult for the main weapons, to react as fast as necessary, why wouldn't they simply install CIWS around the ship. Small canons similar tho the phalanx, which are able to take an oncoming torpedo under rapid fire? If strong shields would be out, that would be the obvious solution«.
   
   But you have ignored these parts of my posts - although the raised questions are - at least in my opinion - the main problem.
   
   Ok, I conceede for the sake of that debate, that the given examples are not showing the accuracy, that would be necessary to be able to shoot down an incoming torpedo each time.
   
   And now answere please the realy important questions:
   
   1. Although the accuracy is not good enough, there is still a chance, that they would hit an incoming torpedo, if they would only try it. But they don't even try it. Why?
   2. And if the shields of a torpedo are not strong enough, why don't they install weapon system, that are able to target and destroy a torpedo, if only the main weapons are not accurat enough?
   The only answere, I can see - besides that they are all to stupid - is, that it would be futile because, even if they would hit the torpedo per coincidence with the main weapons or with a CIW system, they could not destroy it. And for that, the shields have to be too strong.
   
   But maybe you know another plausibel and possible explanation, why they don't even try it and don't develop torpedo interception systems.
   
   Such a system doesn't even has to be based on phasers. Mini torpedos, missiles, drones or canons would be also good solutions, if they would be able to destroy an incoming torpedo. Already today there are similar systems. But in the long history of photon torpedos, nobody had done such ting. And not only not humans haven't done such thing, but all other known species too. Are they all to stupid or could there be another reason? Maybe the reason, I have proposed?

[Mr. Oragahn]

I lose gradually the zest to continue that debate, if you don't read, what I have written and don't answer to that and not anything else. And we get more and more side issue, that are not important. I try to reduce to the main questions now.

Concerning »Half a Life«, maybe it would be advisable, if you watch that episode at an opportunity. It seems to me, that you don't really know the episode. The script can you bring only so far. But if you don't even read it correctly, it can not even do that.

The only thing I don't do is considering pressure and movement through all the layers and the core. The movement, as a said, would be helped by the expanding matter pushing agains the core and gravity.

Since you make the claims, why don't you make the calcs?

You'll then have to compare the results to hypothetical possible maximum antimatter loads onboard torpedoes, to see how much energy you can max out and see if its fits with the pressure related numbers you obtained.

For example, the pressure inside our sun's core is 340 billion times Earth's air pressure at sea level. Or 34,450.5 billion kPa.
1 pascal (Pa) = 1 N/m² = 1 J/m³ = 1 kg/m/s².

Such a pressure enables nuclear reactions. Unless I missed something, I don't think the core of the red giant was much active.
Our sun's core is 15,000,000° C hot. That's 15,000,273.15 K.

During the first stage of the reactivation, the red giant's core was brought to 60,000,000 K, but that's already after the increase of other parameters, including an increase by 1700% of gamma radiations and an increase of nuclear activity.
Assuming (big if) kelvins are more or less proportional to the nuclear activity, the initial core temperature could have been around 3,529,412 K.
Now, assuming pressure is proportional to all that mess (and that's probably just wrong because of the different elements present in our sun's core and the red giant's core), the pressure in that red giant core would hypothetically be around 20 billion times Earth's air pressure at sea level.


1.1.1. Yes, there were tremendeous pressure levels in the core. The initial conditions, however, are not known, contrary to what you claim.

1.1.2. He reports an increase in temperature, and says things are steady even after he's mentionned "seventeen hundred percent rise in gamma radiation levels. Helium fusion rate increasing..."
Obviously, steady must not be understood as "stagnant" (like, "as it were before the reaction started"), but rather as "as planned", "increasing as needed".
Which fits with the tension of the scene you speak of.

1.2. What is your point, more precisely?

1.3. The problem is that we need anything related to pressure/friction. Even if we obtained more numbers, there's still the problem that those alleged uber shields could have been powered by an increased amount of reactants, and all examples you pick involve torpedoes which have been modified. There's no absolute certainty that they didn't remove some pointless hardware, and increase shields instead.

Besides, we're considering pressure issues, but just how far are they relevant to phasers? Phasers "dissolve" matter with little effort and little energy inputs and outputs.
Now, there could be reasons why they don't put those shields on starships.
Like, for example, radiations problems, and other non welcome side effects.

Concerning accuracy. You still nag at the given examples for high accuracy - although I have explicit said already, that »even if, to hit a photon torpedo, a higher accuracy would be necessary, with the accacy they have, they have a good chance to hit the torpedo at least per coincidence« or »even if the probability to hit a photon torpedo is low, it is still better to try it then to close the eyes and wait for the hit« or »even if it would be difficult for the main weapons, to react as fast as necessary, why wouldn't they simply install CIWS around the ship. Small canons similar tho the phalanx, which are able to take an oncoming torpedo under rapid fire? If strong shields would be out, that would be the obvious solution«.

But you have ignored these parts of my posts - although the raised questions are - at least in my opinion - the main problem.

No, I have not ignored them. You can read that paragraph I put, and even repeated, about a theory is to why they wouldn't shoot at torpedoes' shields. It's about booby trapped torpedo shields, which relies on a few events where phasers used against certains elements actually caused a sort of backdraft that rode along the beam, back to the phaser bank, and threatened the ship rather dangerously.

Ok, I conceede for the sake of that debate, that the given examples are not showing the accuracy, that would be necessary to be able to shoot down an incoming torpedo each time.

For the record, I'm not disputing good accuracy when most of the paramters are controlled.

And now answere please the realy important questions:

Although the accuracy is not good enough, there is still a chance, that they would hit an incoming torpedo, if they would only try it. But they don't even try it. Why?

I already proposed an idea for that.

And if the shields of a torpedo are not strong enough, why don't they install weapon system, that are able to target and destroy a torpedo, if only the main weapons are not accurat enough?

And if your premise - super strong shields - may be incorrect?

The only answere, I can see - besides that they are all to stupid - is, that it would be futile because, even if they would hit the torpedo per coincidence with the main weapons or with a CIW system, they could not destroy it. And for that, the shields have to be too strong.

But maybe you know another plausibel and possible explanation, why they don't even try it and don't develop torpedo interception systems.

I proposed one that is relative to phasers.

Such a system doesn't even has to be based on phasers. Mini torpedos, missiles, drones or canons would be also good solutions, if they would be able to destroy an incoming torpedo. Already today there are similar systems. But in the long history of photon torpedos, nobody had done such ting. And not only not humans haven't done such thing, but all other known species too. Are they all to stupid or could there be another reason? Maybe the reason, I have proposed?

You realize you're asking me why they don't fire single purpose torpedoes against torpedoes? This is absurd. There's no reason a torpedo couldn't destroy another torpedo. The reason is not because of super shields, but lies somewhere else.

Simple reasons would be: at short ranges, there wouldn't be much time to react and acquire the incoming torpedoes. It could even be that at some point, such a method was devised, but torpedoes, as a counter measure to this, either used jamming to prevent a lock, or executed quick spirals while flying towards their target, making interception by a projectile such a torpedo most problematic.
It could even be that the intercepting torpedo would, after missing the enemy one, execute a 180° and then, eventually never catch the enemy torp, or blast it too close to the ship to prove useful, or even hit the ship itself!

At long ranges, they may attempt to intercept the torpedo, or evade it, or fire phaser after having enough time to lock on it. That said, if there's no consequential effect by firing phaser against torpedoes - besides a PS - such as what I suggested by boobytrapped shields riding the phaser beam backwards in a flash instant.