Interphasic Cloak

[Who is like God arbour]

I have just read a thread at SDN concerning Interphasic Cloak.

It has started with a question of Kitsune:

This came up because my roommate is into Star Trek Sims......
Apparently, he has been giving ships in the Sim interphasic cloaks
Is there any way of hurting a ship with one?

Then Covenant has added his opinion.

The phase cloak is fairly useless overall. Think of it this way--a normal cloak makes you invisible. A phase cloak makes you invisible and lets things pass through you with low interactivity. What's the difference out in space? Rarely will you fight in a dense planetary ring full of rock chunks, so the phase aspect is nearly pointless. It can make you mostly resistant to attack. But since this is Star Trek, let us examine it in a bit more depth--since that depth is very shallow:

Interphase Cloaks don't cloak the ship, they take it out of phase, which ghosts it. This is the technology used, as stolen from Memory Alpha:

A molecular phase inverter is a device that can alter the structure of normal matter, putting it out of phase with normal matter. Matter that has been "phased" can no longer make physical contact with normal matter. However "phased" matter can make physical contact with "phased" matter that has the same phase variance. Phased matter is also unaffected by external energy sources such as heat, allowing a phased object to be able to, in theory, go inside a planet. In addition, conventional weapons would be completely ineffective against phased matter.

Three different powers, the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Empire and the Federation (with the latter being done illegally) attempted to combine a molecular phase inverter with a cloaking device, creating an interphase cloaking device or an interphase generator (either of which would have provided a substantial tactical advantage), all with limited success. (TNG: "The Next Phase", "The Pegasus"; ENT: "These Are the Voyages...")

As you can see, there's a big gaping hole in this equation. Phased matter can be interacted with if you phase the weapon to the same phase variance. Though none of that makes any sense, it does mean that the frequency-adjusting weapons that you see people use so often would be able to calibrate and then fire again, whacking the ship even though it had been phased. If Interphasic Cloaks became a popular option, you'd have Phase Inversion Torpedoes at the ready to blow them away before too long. Just pre-phase a few from one tube and leave at the ready.

Furthermore, it is also seen that interphasic material (as demonstrated on Voyager multiple times, where interphase cloaks are not uncommon third-party plot devices) can be blocked by forcefields of high enough power, so it's not as if an Interphase Cloak gives a ship shield-penetrating weaponry. Though the vessel itself might be able to push through, small masses (like people) can't walk through high-level shielding and, as stated, the Interphase cloak can be knocked off by an appropriate magic phase blast. I would also assume that a ship in phase cloak mode would have their shields lowered to prevent them from being detected that way, so overall if you can manage to spot them you could damage them extremely easily. Such modifications aren't that bad, because instead of being literally cloaked, they're still emitting, just on a phased variance or whatever. In Voyager, there was an episode where phase cloaked individuals were experimenting on the crew, and Seven's implant was modified to let her see them. That, plus the ability to phase-out a phaser or torpedo, would make it really hard for a phased ship to do anything useful.

So really, what the phase cloak lets you do is slip through solid material, which would be nice for a shuttlecraft but useless for a big ship. If he adds phase cloaks, make sure he adds in the ability for opposed captains to modify their weapons and sensors to match it, so it becomes little more than a first strike weapon.

What I find interesting is, that nobody on SDN does object to his claims and conclusions, although they are obviously But, considering that the tenor of this post makes Star Trek look bad, it is not surprising.

I have hoped, that maybe we could analyse the tactical advantages and disadvantages of a Interphase cloaking device dependently and in a more neutral way and, in doing so, can show, where Covenant is wrong.

[Mike DiCenso]

Not surprising to see the SDNers trying to downplay an extremely useful technology. As for the VOY episode "Scientific Method", the aliens were undetected for a considerable amount of time and had been conducting experiments on the crew. In this case, the aliens were out of phase only slightly so that they could still interact enough with the Voyager crew to carry out said experiments. If they had truly wished to, they could have destroyed the Federation starship long before anyone had thought of looking given the aliens at several points sabotaged efforts to find them, including damaging equipment. It was only the EMH's surreptitious modifications to Seven's sensory implants that allowed the aliens to be detected.

Again the aliens goals was not the immediate destruction of Voyager or it's crew, but a series of long-term experiments, otherwise they could have easily destroyed the ship and everyone long before hand.

The major advantage here is that a special ops team can infitrate into enemy ships or facilities for long periods of time, gain important tactical or strategic intelligence or conduct missions of sabotage and or assasination without significant risk of being discovered. These teams could be beamed into the enemy territory via a similarly phase-cloaked vessel, which can then hide inside a planet or star to mask any signatures that a large ship might give off until it is time to extract the team.

Other VOY examples, like the Voth personal phase cloaks were not blocked by force fields as this dialog shows:

KIM: This is strange, I'm picking up spatial fluctuations. They're coming from the bridge.

CHAKOTAY: Source?
KIM: Not sure, but they're highly localised with modulating phase variance. Looks like some kind of cloaking technology.
JANEWAY: All stop. Intruder alert.
GEGEN: We've exceeded our welcome. Let's get back to the ship.
VEER: What's wrong?
GEGEN: Some sort of forcefield.
TUVOK: I've erected a level ten containment field around the bridge, Captain.
KIM: Scanning on all subspace frequencies. I'm picking up two lifeforms.
CHAKOTAY: Localise them.
KIM: Mission ops one.
VEER: Professor?
GEGEN: The forcefield is disrupting our interphase. I'm compensating. I can at least get us off this deck.
JANEWAY: Show yourselves.
KIM: Captain, the lifeforms left the bridge. They're now on deck two, section thirteen. Mess hall.
CHAKOTAY: Seal off the deck.
TUVOK: Deck two sealed. Security team to the mess hall.

So in this case some personal phase cloaks were temporalily disrupted, but not blocked by the bridge containment force fields. In fact, there does not seem to be any real evidence that shields stop phase cloaked ships, people, or weapons unless possibly the opposing vessel can detect and modify their shields to block the phase variance. Given the amount of time that Voth scientists Gegen and Veer were on Voyager before their detection, had they truly been out to damage or destroy the Federation starship, they could easily have done so without opposition.
-Mike

[The Corporal]

The thing is that he’s right. What’s the point in having a device that lets you pass through matter if you can't do anything with it while you’re cloaked? You can't fire or attack anyone, so it is tactically no different then a regular cloak. A cool piece of kit to be sure but I don't see where it gives much of an advantage in space.

I could see several interesting ground based uses however. Like in INS with the spy facility in the cliff.

[PunkMaister]

OK does this phasing works say in the same manner that has been observed in Stargate? If so could it not be theoretically possible to phase weapons like photons torpedoes and then having them unphase on their own as they are about to hit their target or better yet home in yet phased to the largest energy source and then boom! Well is just an idea, provided they work more or less on the same principles...

[The Corporal]

OK does this phasing works say in the same manner that has been observed in Stargate? If so could it not be theoretically possible to phase weapons like photons torpedoes and then having them unphase on their own as they are about to hit their target or better yet home in yet phased to the largest energy source and then boom! Well is just an idea, provided they work more or less on the same principles...

Possibly, whether it works on ships of another verse is also questionable. That however is a very expensive way to kill a ship, easier to use the cloak to enhance your ships manouverabilty and strike targets deep behind the lines.

Edit: We should remember that killing ships, while cool is not the end all and be all of war. What has a more lasting effect; blowing up a ship or bombing a major world or supply depot?

[ILikeDeathNote]

The thing is that he’s right. What’s the point in having a device that lets you pass through matter if you can't do anything with it while you’re cloaked? You can't fire or attack anyone, so it is tactically no different then a regular cloak. A cool piece of kit to be sure but I don't see where it gives much of an advantage in space.

I could see several interesting ground based uses however. Like in INS with the spy facility in the cliff.

Yeah, pretty much. Of course you can spy on their ships too, I guess, just as that one Romulan was running around during TNG "The Next Phase"

[Mike DiCenso]

Why would it be "expensive"? It would be an enormous tactical advantage if you can sit with impunity and plink away at your enemy while they in turn cannot touch you. Phased photon torpedoes or other missile weapons can be set to remain in phase until they have passed through shields and penetrated deep inside the target vessel, then phase back into normal space, detonate, and cause maximum possible damage, or preferably the total destruction of the enemy ship.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

The thing is that he’s right. What’s the point in having a device that lets you pass through matter if you can't do anything with it while you’re cloaked? You can't fire or attack anyone, so it is tactically no different then a regular cloak. A cool piece of kit to be sure but I don't see where it gives much of an advantage in space.

I could see several interesting ground based uses however. Like in INS with the spy facility in the cliff.

Yeah, pretty much. Of course you can spy on their ships too, I guess, just as that one Romulan was running around during TNG "The Next Phase"

Actually like Ro and Geordi, he was an unintentional victim of the accident on the Romulan research vessel.
-Mike

[The Corporal]

Why would it be "expensive"? It would be an enormous tactical advantage if you can sit with impunity and plink away at your enemy while they in turn cannot touch you. Phased photon torpedoes or other missile weapons can be set to remain in phase until they have passed through shields and penetrated deep inside the target vessel, then phase back into normal space, detonate, and cause maximum possible damage, or preferably the total destruction of the enemy ship.

The resources for these things have to come from somewhere and fitting millions of torpedoes with these things wouldn't be "cheap". For that matter we don't even know if they could be fitted or powered by a torpedo.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

It would simply be easier to do what I suggest from a resource and logistics standpoint, not to mention fitting them to just ships reduces the risk that a dud will hand the enemy a fully functional example of your new uber-tech.

Besides, it’s just easier to win without ever confronting a fleet. Sun-Tzu and all that.

[PunkMaister]

Why would it be "expensive"? It would be an enormous tactical advantage if you can sit with impunity and plink away at your enemy while they in turn cannot touch you. Phased photon torpedoes or other missile weapons can be set to remain in phase until they have passed through shields and penetrated deep inside the target vessel, then phase back into normal space, detonate, and cause maximum possible damage, or preferably the total destruction of the enemy ship.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

Now you get it but to be fair we know from both Star Trek and Stargate that phasing does not completely eliminate interactivity between the phased object/individual and unphased matter but that it does a much more reduced capacity one would still have to proof it can phase thru really thick armor and so on but the concept is very much sound, it is believed that Drones in Stargate work in a fashion like this at least partially. It might explain their impressive penetrating abilities...

[Mike DiCenso]

Why would it be "expensive"? It would be an enormous tactical advantage if you can sit with impunity and plink away at your enemy while they in turn cannot touch you. Phased photon torpedoes or other missile weapons can be set to remain in phase until they have passed through shields and penetrated deep inside the target vessel, then phase back into normal space, detonate, and cause maximum possible damage, or preferably the total destruction of the enemy ship.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

Now you get it but to be fair we know from both Star Trek and Stargate that phasing does not completely eliminate interactivity between the phased object/individual and unphased matter but that it does a much more reduced capacity one would still have to proof it can phase thru really thick armor and so on but the concept is very much sound, it is believed that Drones in Stargate work in a fashion like this at least partially. It might explain their impressive penetrating abilities...

I think it depends largely on what you are trying to do with the phase cloak, at least from a Trek standpoint since the E-D while using the illegal Pegasus phase cloak seemed to be not only able to pass through kilometers of an asteroid's rock with ease, but once outside the asteroid it remained undetected by a Romulan warbird dispite being less than a couple kilometers right in front of it. The same was true of Ro and Geordi in "The Next Phase". It took extremely high levels of interactions with normal phase matter to leave behind technobabble chroniton particles for them to be detected. When a phase cloaked individual is still trying to maintain some level of interactivity with normal phase space and time, that is when they seem to be more vunerable.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

The resources for these things have to come from somewhere and fitting millions of torpedoes with these things wouldn't be "cheap". For that matter we don't even know if they could be fitted or powered by a torpedo

.

True, however phase cloaks aren't very large, at least the models we've seen used, even the experimental Pegasus cloaking device were quite small, and no one stated that it would take all of the ship's power to operate.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

It would simply be easier to do what I suggest from a resource and logistics standpoint, not to mention fitting them to just ships reduces the risk that a dud will hand the enemy a fully functional example of your new uber-tech.

Besides, it’s just easier to win without ever confronting a fleet. Sun-Tzu and all that.

Any use of the tech runs the risk of handing an example to the enemy. That's the nature of warfare. And while you can blow the hell out of someone's bases and homeworlds, you still have to deal with their fleets at some point. Can't just leave them roaming around and hoping they run out of supplies and or the will to fight.
-Mike

[The Corporal]

True, however phase cloaks aren't very large, at least the models we've seen used, even the experimental Pegasus cloaking device were quite small, and no one stated that it would take all of the ship's power to operate.

Nor do we have any statements saying they don't. I see no reason to assume it can be done but neither do I see a reason to think the thing is practical on a large scale either, we've only seen it two or three times. And one of those times, it was failing.

Any use of the tech runs the risk of handing an example to the enemy. That's the nature of warfare. And while you can blow the hell out of someone's bases and homeworlds, you still have to deal with their fleets at some point. Can't just leave them roaming around and hoping they run out of supplies and or the will to fight.
-Mike

Yes but a starship can self-destruct.

Why can't you leave them roaming? If they are cut off from supplies then they are pooched. Sooner or later they will have to raid you for them and using your fancy new cloak you can keep tabs on them and engage them at a time of your choosing. Which gives you an advantage.

[PunkMaister]

Why would it be "expensive"? It would be an enormous tactical advantage if you can sit with impunity and plink away at your enemy while they in turn cannot touch you. Phased photon torpedoes or other missile weapons can be set to remain in phase until they have passed through shields and penetrated deep inside the target vessel, then phase back into normal space, detonate, and cause maximum possible damage, or preferably the total destruction of the enemy ship.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

Now you get it but to be fair we know from both Star Trek and Stargate that phasing does not completely eliminate interactivity between the phased object/individual and unphased matter but that it does a much more reduced capacity one would still have to proof it can phase thru really thick armor and so on but the concept is very much sound, it is believed that Drones in Stargate work in a fashion like this at least partially. It might explain their impressive penetrating abilities...

I think it depends largely on what you are trying to do with the phase cloak, at least from a Trek standpoint since the E-D while using the illegal Pegasus phase cloak seemed to be not only able to pass through kilometers of an asteroid's rock with ease, but once outside the asteroid it remained undetected by a Romulan warbird dispite being less than a couple kilometers right in front of it. The same was true of Ro and Geordi in "The Next Phase". It took extremely high levels of interactions with normal phase matter to leave behind technobabble chroniton particles for them to be detected. When a phase cloaked individual is still trying to maintain some level of interactivity with normal phase space and time, that is when they seem to be more vunerable.
-Mike

I think you misunderstand me, my point is if either Geordi in ST or Sam and Mitchell in SG had been totally out of phase with zero interactivity with unphased matter they would have suffocated as they do not have any air that is phased for them to breathe especially in the case of Geordi at least in the case of Sam and Mitchell they might have lasted a few minutes until the phased air in the house they phased ran out, get it now? Not too mention that if they did not interact at all then gravity would no longer have an effect on them either.

[Mike DiCenso]

Nor do we have any statements saying they don't. I see no reason to assume it can be done but neither do I see a reason to think the thing is practical on a large scale either, we've only seen it two or three times. And one of those times, it was failing.

Actually, in TNG's "The Next Phase", Ro Laren, Geordi, and the romulan who were all stranded out of phase, did not require any power source to keep them that way, and there was nothing to indicate there was a massive power surge to put them in the interphase condition in the first place.

Any use of the tech runs the risk of handing an example to the enemy. That's the nature of warfare. And while you can blow the hell out of someone's bases and homeworlds, you still have to deal with their fleets at some point. Can't just leave them roaming around and hoping they run out of supplies and or the will to fight.
-Mike

Yes but a starship can self-destruct.

So too can a torpedo. In the case of Trek weapons, a self-destruct mechanism was referenced for a torpedo in the episode "Genesis" [TNG, Season 7].

Why can't you leave them roaming? If they are cut off from supplies then they are pooched. Sooner or later they will have to raid you for them and using your fancy new cloak you can keep tabs on them and engage them at a time of your choosing. Which gives you an advantage.

Because if they are resourceful enough, they can go off somewhere else and reestablish themselves, or as was the case with the Jem'Hadar, if anything happned to the Founders, they would go on a rampage against whomever was responsible until they died, or were killed.
-Mike