Rates of fire

[Jedi Master Spock]

Actually, we just got one blurry instance in some murky background in ROTJ. Hold me back.

Actually, we have quite a bit more than that.

In comparison, you have the main bigass cannons of those CIS ships in ROTS firing several shorts bursts within a second.

Plus those prequel continuous beams and a theory I fancy about how you can accelerate bolts if you spend the right amount of energy for that, and those typical rates of fire aren't even empirically evidenced, since I don't consider one instance as enough.
You have the Venators at Coruscant firing at decent rates.
I've spotted a Venator firing its four main
12 shots within 3 seconds. That's 4 shots per second. Thus one shot per second per heaviest turret, even sometimes faster than that, like two volleys from the same turret within a fraction of a second. Not bad.
But that's for the Venators. So what do we do from there? Assume that the ISDs are crappier or the same, or better? SFJ's page about TLs gives a rate of fire between 5 and 10 seconds.

At the same time, however, the "largest bolts" I'm talking about are, IIRC, much larger than the bolts seen in the ROTS battle. And much brighter and greener, too. I suspect the kind of immense bolt that we see ISDs fire only at low rates is much deadlier than what we see in the ROTS battle.

If you would care to provide a picture of one of the volleys being rapid-fired you're talking about?

Technically, it's correct, since based on one single event. But that's all we get. However, does it make sense in regards of the prequels? Not much. Basically, it's left wide open to anyone.
I don't call that a definitive answer at all.

I do. We've got some leeway in the exact rate of fire, but we have a good general idea.

Of course, uncertainty propagates, which means that our direct estimates of firepower - from the TESB asteroid blasting, from the SPHA-Ts, and from the Slave I, plus observed firing rates of different kinds of bolts - are much fuzzier, which is why it's good to go back and compare them with base estimates for power generation.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Actually, we just got one blurry instance in some murky background in ROTJ. Hold me back.

Actually, we have quite a bit more than that.

Can we use the Moncal as a benchmark and consider that the (more powerful??) ISDs should at least be able to match their ROF?

I'm really curious now, because as far as I know, we have a well known instance of an ISD firing what people consider to be the main cannons. Mostly because of the lenght of the bolt.
Mind you, those bolts aren't particularily bright.

There's the one where Ackbar orders the fleet to concentrate fire on the biggest ship. There, it actually seems that the ISD, soon to be destroyed in the two seconds that follow, manages to fire bolts equally as long as the Moncal's ones, and that within a fraction of a second, and I think another one less than a second later. However, that third one does not seem to originate from the racks of HTLs. So even that would possibly dispute the "heavy" nature of those bolts.
We have the nearby Moncal firing as fast.

Then, we may have the other instance, if we can even prove that it was a HTL at work here. It first starts with a Moncal firing at an ISD.
It is particularily nice. It is when Piett gives orders to increase the defense grid forward fire. In that particular case, you have a Moncal firing a red bolt, from a TL located on the superior half of the port side. It hits an ISD's underbelly's starboard side, and creates a big blue flash of energy (there's another one of those blue flashes when the Executor has been damaged and, seen heading towards the DSII from Liberty One's bridge - check the at left of Ackbar's head - but this ones occurs far from any ship).
Eventually, we have that same ISD firing a green bolt at some unseen target, when Piett gets anxious. The bolt itself seems smaller than the other ones I talked about, considering the size of the ships on screen, which are closer to the Executor.

Now, i'm only working from the SE, I don't have the DVDs. Maybe they added more fire activity in the latest versions, but in the SE, it's quite calm.

If you would care to provide a picture of one of the volleys being rapid-fired you're talking about?

Don't have any at hand. However, I'll try to explain where I got this observation from. It's when the two Jedi strafighters are flying above a Venator, at the very beginning of the opening sequence, before we even get a look at the whole battle.
Then the two fighters plunge over the port side edge. You can see a venator on the far left of the screen.
As far as I can tell, the bolts do not seem bleaker than the rumoured heavy ones exchanged between the ISD and the Moncal in the background, in ROTJ. They appear shorter, but when you think about it, I don't even know why lenght has anything to do with power.
In fact, there's no proof right now that lenght can be related to power. It could eventually just be a matter of the bolt, being matter based, stretching because it's faster, or whatever.

Technically, it's correct, since based on one single event. But that's all we get. However, does it make sense in regards of the prequels? Not much. Basically, it's left wide open to anyone.
I don't call that a definitive answer at all.

I do. We've got some leeway in the exact rate of fire, but we have a good general idea.

I clearly don't. We can't even be sure that the bolts are fired by the HTLs, and the rates can either range from only one bolt ever fired during a sequence of several seconds, to a double shot within a fraction of a second.

[2046]

1. Energy, Mr. O, not power.

2. There may be some technical limitations regarding heavy weapons.

The very principle of having multiple heavy guns suggests that you do not have the tech to make fewer more powerful guns on the same weapon platform, for whatever reason. This is especially true for ISDs, whose heaviest gun emplacements have barrels equal to or only slightly larger in size to those of the trench guns. They just pack 'em in, eight abreast in four different emplacements per side. That kills the idea that it's for defensive reasons, since if a significant hit is scored on one emplacement they'd surely lose all the guns there.

And though these guns seem like they must be large, they really aren't that huge. If you go to Merzo.net's -2x page, grab the KBoP and stick it next to the ISD, you'll see that the small (109m) KBoP's wing gun barrels are at least as big if not bigger than the ISD's big gun barrels.

Hell, you can actually take it a step further. If you go further down the page and grab the Battleship Yamato, then drag it next to the ISD, the guns there are also about the same size. Yamato's guns had barrel widths of less than two meters for the 18 inch shells.

The really fun part if you carry this further is Revenge of the Sith in the battle between a Republic ship and the Invisible Hand. Both ships had broadside gun emplacements on decks, firing out of portholes a la sailing ships . . . which is a-whole-nother thing worth pondering. But anyway, in both cases the guns are of similar size . . . less than two meters in diameter, with bolts (and shells at least in the case of the Hand) of around 18 inches, give or take.

And if you compare the Venator's turrets to the firing ports of the Hand, you can see pretty quickly that the turret guns are not significantly bigger if at all than the Hand's broadside guns, and they may even be smaller.

In other words, if the general idea of gun barrel size increases suggesting an increase in firepower is accurate, then it looks like there's a technological upper limit to the size of turbolaser guns in Star Wars, one which they ran up against during the Clone War era and never really seemed to surpass. The best they could do was to add more guns.

Again, this doesn't mean the newer guns aren't more powerful, but it does mean they can't seem to make megaguns (besides the Death Star).

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

What about those jumbo guns on one of the CIS ships, the ones that the ICS says can vaporize a 10km wide battlestation in one shot? I'm not agreeing with the ICS, but their barrels are significantly larger than standard HTL turrets. This could represent a different type of technology, or they could be some BFTLs.

[Mr. Oragahn]

1. Energy, Mr. O, not power.

Well, a longer bolt would have less power than a shorter one of the same level of energy. Got messed up with the terms.
Anyway, what's the strong evidence that lenght has something to do with energy level, as destructive level?
Can't an elongated bolt just be a faster bolt, for example, with just the same amount of "bottled" destructive energy (besides the sheer KE of such a matter based projectile moving at a given speed)?
Or one that is just fired more continuously than a plain short burst, maybe because of mechanic limitations or else?

2. There may be some technical limitations regarding heavy weapons.

The very principle of having multiple heavy guns suggests that you do not have the tech to make fewer more powerful guns on the same weapon platform, for whatever reason. This is especially true for ISDs, whose heaviest gun emplacements have barrels equal to or only slightly larger in size to those of the trench guns. They just pack 'em in, eight abreast in four different emplacements per side. That kills the idea that it's for defensive reasons, since if a significant hit is scored on one emplacement they'd surely lose all the guns there.

Can that be a valid argument, just because the guns are located at a given point? It looks like the system is power grid centered, but the smaller but numerous cannons would allow for a better barrage of fire.

And though these guns seem like they must be large, they really aren't that huge. If you go to Merzo.net's -2x page, grab the KBoP and stick it next to the ISD, you'll see that the small (109m) KBoP's wing gun barrels are at least as big if not bigger than the ISD's big gun barrels.

Hell, you can actually take it a step further. If you go further down the page and grab the Battleship Yamato, then drag it next to the ISD, the guns there are also about the same size. Yamato's guns had barrel widths of less than two meters for the 18 inch shells.

The really fun part if you carry this further is Revenge of the Sith in the battle between a Republic ship and the Invisible Hand. Both ships had broadside gun emplacements on decks, firing out of portholes a la sailing ships . . . which is a-whole-nother thing worth pondering. But anyway, in both cases the guns are of similar size . . . less than two meters in diameter, with bolts (and shells at least in the case of the Hand) of around 18 inches, give or take.

And if you compare the Venator's turrets to the firing ports of the Hand, you can see pretty quickly that the turret guns are not significantly bigger if at all than the Hand's broadside guns, and they may even be smaller.

In other words, if the general idea of gun barrel size increases suggesting an increase in firepower is accurate, then it looks like there's a technological upper limit to the size of turbolaser guns in Star Wars, one which they ran up against during the Clone War era and never really seemed to surpass. The best they could do was to add more guns.

Again, this doesn't mean the newer guns aren't more powerful, but it does mean they can't seem to make megaguns (besides the Death Star).

I think the sheer size of the ion cannon, for example, with a diameter between 3 and 4 meters I believe (looking at the nearby defense tower), would defeat the idea that they can't make bigger cannons than what's seen on the clone wars ships.

The quad turrets in the trench notches have cannons twice bigger than those of the 3 TLs mounted near the base of the bridge structure.
What the EU describes as ion heavy cannons come with barrels roughly the same diameter as those of the trench's quad turrets.
That said, relative to the 1.6 km figure, that's ought to make particularily big cannons.

Why would it mean they reached a cap? Would they need to make bigger cannons?

Besides, might someone grab caps of the Moncal and ISD exchanging fire. I'd like to see where the bolts come from and how long they are relative to their... point of origin.
Anyone?

[SailorSaturn13]

Ion cannons use different tech. Meant is that TL cannons cant be bigger

[Mr. Oragahn]

Ion cannons use different tech. Meant is that TL cannons cant be bigger

Yes, different tech, but one which, like the laser cannons, could be upscaled as well.
It's not because a given class comes with a series of smaller but duplicated calibers, instead of coming with just bigger but fewer cannons, that it rules out this last possibility.

The main cannons on a CIS frigate (munificent class, or Banking Clan Communication Frigate, 825 meters long) have a muzzle overall diameter of +4 meters.
Which is technically bigger than those found on the Venators, right?
Those cannons could fire a couple of volleys within one or two seconds. That's an interesting ROF.