Anakin's force perspective

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Sat May 02, 2009 9:27 am

mojo wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:
mojo wrote:i thought obi-wan WAS the hero
...someone once said that Yoda and Obi-Wan were hellbent on giving Luke the basic minimal training and transforming him into a Jedi assassin, with the hidden reality that it was a no return mission.
i would LOVE to know where you read that, because Air and i have debated that ourselves.

I have read about this at some point in the EU. Might have been somewhere in the NJO. Luke himself realizes this, although I think it was originally mentioned by Kyp Durron, or maybe Mara.

mojo · Post by **mojo** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:14 am

the link was to an interesting article, but i had read it already and did not find any reference to the jedi/assassin idea. i also could find no others. are there more?

mojo · Post by **mojo** » Sat May 02, 2009 10:17 am

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight wrote:
mojo wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: ...someone once said that Yoda and Obi-Wan were hellbent on giving Luke the basic minimal training and transforming him into a Jedi assassin, with the hidden reality that it was a no return mission.
i would LOVE to know where you read that, because Air and i have debated that ourselves.
I have read about this at some point in the EU. Might have been somewhere in the NJO. Luke himself realizes this, although I think it was originally mentioned by Kyp Durron, or maybe Mara.

yeah, i didn't bother to point it out, but it's been done to death in the eu. i th ink the first time i read it was in the jedi academy trilogy when luke is wishing there'd been time for yoda to teach him more than just attack/defense techniques. but that doesn't really explicitly say that yoda intentionally created an assassin, just that he was forced by the situation to focus on giving him some chance to survive.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Sun May 03, 2009 2:30 am

The real problem I have is that TESB, not even in the novelization, ever really gives us any real clue as to how long Luke spent training with Yoda on Dagobah. Is it days? Weeks? Months? Years? In the Star Wars Infinities alternate timeline stories, Luke (Or Leia in the alternate universe TESB storyline) at least gets 5 years to study.

Still don't even know why Luke and Leia weren't taken and trained at a very young age, if they were to be properly trained. Or maybe the Jedi training really isn't all that much, just more of an indoctrination into the monastic lifestyle of the Jedi Order, and to gain necessary combat experiance as a padewan learner under a Jedi Knight.
-Mike

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Sun May 03, 2009 3:34 am

Well, we know that it was not years. There is only one year between ESB and ROTJ, and presumably, there is some time between the two movies, considering that the DSII plans were stolen in the intervening time.

The five year total in the alternate time-line is only possible because there was no Han and Leia to save on Cloud City. The predicament with them really limits Luke's training time.

There are four lengths of time that we would need to figure out, to estimate Luke's training time. That of the time spent making repairs in the asteroid field, the amount of time it took to get to Bespin using only ION drives, the amount of time Han and Leia were on Bespin before being captured, and the length of their captivity. The key periods being the second and fourth intervals.

Since Luke's training coincides with these events, knowing their duration helps to estimate Luke's training. I am unsure if these time periods are given in the novelization, and I know that they were not given in the movie itself.

The amount of time spent repairing the Falcon could not have been more than a few hours. I predict a day at the very most. The transit to Bespin is unknown, and they could only have been there for a few hours before being captured by Vader. So far, we around a day for Luke to spend on Dagobah, with the other two time periods unknown.

Obviously, the available data does not help us much, but, I am inclined to think that Luke only studied for a few days.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Sun May 03, 2009 4:40 pm

I can't except in any way that Luke only spent a few days training. It makes no sense whatsoever. What I really have trouble with is that Ben did not appear to Luke immediately after the Battle of Yavin and instruct him to go to Dagobah and Yoday at that time. It would have given Luke 2 more years of studying under his belt.
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn · Post by **Mr. Oragahn** » Sun May 03, 2009 4:53 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:I can't except in any way that Luke only spent a few days training. It makes no sense whatsoever. What I really have trouble with is that Ben did not appear to Luke immediately after the Battle of Yavin and instruct him to go to Dagobah and Yoday at that time. It would have given Luke 2 more years of studying under his belt.
-Mike

Well, Obi-Wan appears at a time when it seems uses the Force on his own for the first time, in the ice cave.
Perhaps Obi-Wan got ticked off and estimated now was the time.

Of course, it's not such a good excuse. Sending Luke to the swamps of Dagobah would have indeed boosted his training a great many times.

But perhaps Obi-Wan considered that Luke, for the time being, was much more important and influential working for the rebellion full time, while training him could wait a few years.

Disputable, but is there any other story?

mojo · Post by **mojo** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:33 am

if that was the first time luke used the force on his own, perhaps it was the first time ben was ABLE to appear to luke and instruct him to go to dagobah. i mean, we know leia has innate force ability, and she wasn't able to see the force ghosts at the end of RotJ. as i understand it obi-wan wasn't all that powerful in the force, tending to rely on technique in lightsaber combat and whatnot.
is there precedent for a force-sensitive to have contact with force ghosts with no jedi training? and if so, did this involve a force ghost with immense power, or just some average joe jedi like old ben?

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:40 am

I have never heard of such a thing. In fact, it appears that even if you have full Jedi training, a Force Ghost can still appear to someone else and not you. SO the entire thing is just kinda crazy.

Praeothmin · Post by **Praeothmin** » Mon May 04, 2009 1:01 pm

Mojo wrote:as i understand it obi-wan wasn't all that powerful in the force, tending to rely on technique in lightsaber combat and whatnot.

Where'd you get that idea?
From everything I saw in the movies, Obi-Wan is indeed one of the more powerful Jedi out there.
He fights Anakin to a standstill, in lightsabre combat and in Force battles (Force push anyone).
He beats the crap out of Grevious, even after losing his lightsabre, using Force speed and Strength, and Force "toughness" (he was able to resist hits by a Cyborg that could dent starfighter plating).
Obi-Wan is anything but "weak" in the Force... :)

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Mon May 04, 2009 4:54 pm

I agree with MoJo, Obi-wan is quite pedestrian as Jedi go. You have completely ignored the Dukoo fights, where Obi-wan battles him evenly with the sabre, but is just destroyed when Dukoo starts using the force. Both times they fight, he is effortlessly knocked out with Force TK.

Obi-wan only defeated Anakin because he was his pupil, and thus knew exactly how Anakin would fight. A teacher will always have an edge over his student, one way or another. Also, it was a plot device, and Obi-wan should not have been able to do that. There is also a theory which poses that Obi-wan was using the Dark Side against Anakin and that is why his powers were increased. Because of the love that he felt for Anakin, and the anger and betrayal that he felt. One piece of evidence for this, is that the Jedi Code states that Obi-wan should have granted Anakin a mercy kill in that situation, yet he just left him to burn and suffer. This could explain his strength there. Also, Darth Vader made a comment in ANH, that OBi-wan's power was nowhere near close to his own, yet we know that Vader's metal body actually limited his strength. It weakened him.

As for the fight with Grievous, I didn't see a ton of Force speed at work. I would need proof. Also, he did not really beat down Grievous, he just kind of lucked out. He was getting owned for most of the fight, excepting when Grievous lost his arms. I did not see exceptional strength in the Force in this fight.

For every Anakin or Grievous fight he has, he also has another fight showing his weakness in the Force. Jango Fett and Count Dooku, for example. I really don't see Obi-wan as all that powerful.

Post by **Jedi Master Spock** » Mon May 04, 2009 6:58 pm

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight wrote:I agree with MoJo, Obi-wan is quite pedestrian as Jedi go. You have completely ignored the Dukoo fights, where Obi-wan battles him evenly with the sabre, but is just destroyed when Dukoo starts using the force. Both times they fight, he is effortlessly knocked out with Force TK.

Except lightsaber dueling itself is completely Force reliant - letting the Force guide your blows, parries, et cetera. Same thing with Jedi pilots - they rely on the Force to guide them.

Obi-Wan is a very strong Jedi; just not necessarily strong with the TK powers. Jedi less capable with the Force died in droves to Grievous, to droids at Geonosis, et cetera. To hold evenly with Dooku in a lightsaber duel - his greatest strength - requires exceptional skill and exceptional clarity of Force precog.

Praeothmin · Post by **Praeothmin** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:00 pm

Yeah, like JMS said... ;)

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight · Post by **Airlocke_Jedi_Knight** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:49 am

Yes, using a lightsaber requires skill with the Force, yet Jedi don't let the Force completely direct their actions. If they did, none of them would die. The Force is an all encompassing and basically omnipotent. If all the Jedi truly let the Force guide their blades, then they wouldn't die. They have to have some sort of control over it. Also, if this was true, why are the different lightsaber forms necessary? Why would the Jedi need to memorize these forms, and practice them, if the Force was just going to do the work for them? It doesn't add up. It is a fact that Obi-wan has good precognitive abilities in combat, yet I believe that to be more a product of skill then power. He never once has a Force vision, something that we know all the other Jedi Masters had. Not even in the EU, did he have a Force vision. Not once. He has never been portrayed as having amazing Force powers, he has been shown to be very skillful, but never very powerful. Above average, maybe, but not extremely powerful.

Post by **Mike DiCenso** » Tue May 05, 2009 5:33 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:I can't except in any way that Luke only spent a few days training. It makes no sense whatsoever. What I really have trouble with is that Ben did not appear to Luke immediately after the Battle of Yavin and instruct him to go to Dagobah and Yoday at that time. It would have given Luke 2 more years of studying under his belt.
-Mike
Well, Obi-Wan appears at a time when it seems uses the Force on his own for the first time, in the ice cave.
Perhaps Obi-Wan got ticked off and estimated now was the time.

Of course, it's not such a good excuse. Sending Luke to the swamps of Dagobah would have indeed boosted his training a great many times.

But perhaps Obi-Wan considered that Luke, for the time being, was much more important and influential working for the rebellion full time, while training him could wait a few years.

Disputable, but is there any other story?

A key point here; Luke used the Force to aim his proton torpedo shots into the Death Star thermal exhaust port on his own. More to the point, Luke could also hear Ben speaking to him through the Force. There is no reason why Ben after the Battle of Yavin could not have instructed Luke to go to Dagobah for at least part-time Jedi training under Yoda. Luke as a Jedi would also have been a great asset for the Rebellion, too, though it might have tipped off Palpatine much sooner.
-Mike