Myths of Endor

[Jedi Master Spock]

I have noticed that among the curiosities of fandom are two peculiar myths about Endor, belief in which tends to indicate someone is a Saxtonite.

First is the famous Endor Holocaust, which comes directly and solely from Saxton. The second is a firm belief that had the Emperor not been betrayed by Vader, the Empire would have cleaned house with the remnants of the Rebellion - as exhibited recently by Lord Vespasian on SB.com:

If the Emperor had survived Endor, and I have no doubt that he would have had Vader stayed loyal, the Rebels would have been nothing. Endor absolutely devastated them, having suffered 75% or more in terms of casualties. The Rebels didn't bring down the Empire, Darth Vader did

Notwithstanding the fact that Darth Vader didn't blow up the Death Star; Lando Calrissian did that, accompanying one of those daring fighter attack runs that Star Destroyers seem unable to prevent.

Notwithstanding the fact that the second Death Star represented an enormous industrial investment, doubtless made at the expense of more conventional military strength and capabilities.

Notwithstanding the fact that the Executor's loss, which marked a sudden turn of the tide in the battle, had nothing to do with the death of the Emperor. In fact, I commonly see Saxtonites claim that the Empire could have still mopped up the Rebellion, but for a lack of qualified leadership, even after losing the battle of Endor.

Leaving aside, for the moment, that I think both of these are fairly silly notions, I think what's most striking is that I can only recall seeing them advanced by Saxtonites, and that they seem fairly unusual conclusions among the fan base as a whole. Is this true, or am I simply imagining things?

[Mr. Oragahn]

As you said, even if Vader stayed put, they would have all died anyway. Those nasty missiles weren't controlled by the Emperor.

If the Emperor survives, it can only happen with the Death Star II surviving as well. Therefore, we can expect anyone from Luke, Han, Calrissian and lead Rebel generals to either be killed or captured.

At this point, things get really bad.
The success against the Rebels will help alleviate the loss of the Executor.
Someone smart will explain to the Emperor and his lackeys that the men need some new flagships, with respected captains at their helm.

The DSII will be completed and almost impossible to destroy. It will be the Emperor's absolute weapon of terror.

[Jedi Master Spock]

As you said, even if Vader stayed put, they would have all died anyway. Those nasty missiles weren't controlled by the Emperor.

If the Emperor survives, it can only happen with the Death Star II surviving as well.

Not at all true. Luke escaped the Death Star before it blew up; the Emperor could have as well, if he hadn't been thrown down an open shaft.

Would the Imperials have been able to destroy the Rebel fleet then? With the loss of the Executor and the second Death Star exploding in their midst? The displacement may not be to their advantage, but I've pointed out before that the Executor likely displaced more than the entire Rebel fleet. That loss happened before the Emperor kicked the bucket. The Imperial forces were off-balance as a result of the Rebels boldly choosing to engage at knife-fight ranges; the Rebels had more efficient ships, better designed ships*, and very effective fighters.

The Emperor doesn't strike me as a man willing to fight an uncertain battle. He cheats extensively; he plans carefully. The prudent thing for him to do personally would be to flee into hyperspace rather than risk Rebels capturing or killing him, and I think he would do just that with the battle going that poorly - leaving again something of a leadership vacuum on the battlefield, perhaps giving the Imperials an orderly withdrawal, but not likely to be able to wipe out the Rebels then and there. Once the Executor and DS2 were destroyed, the Empire had already lost more than they could possibly gain through any number of casualties within the Rebel fleet.

*If you don't believe me, look at how a 1200m Mon Calamari Cruiser is considered a fair match for a 1600m ISD close to three times its displacement - a little less armament (~75%), but more advanced shields to make up for it - and in general, smaller ships are more efficient in combat in Star Wars. We see it all over the place, in the game stats, in the Thrawn trilogy, etc, and nobody can question whose fleet used larger/smaller ships more.

[Kane Starkiller]

Mon Mothma's statement that "...the Imperial fleet spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us it is relatively unprotected" clearly establishes that what the amassed Rebel fleet fought was not the entirety of the Imperial fleet but merely a fraction.
Note that when the Rebel infiltration team arrived at Endor they were not a least bit surprised that Executor and it's accompanying Star Destroyers were there.
Plus there is Han Solo's statement that "there are a lot of command ships" when Luke said that Vader is on the Executor.

Of course that in military terms Imperial Starfleet could still obliterate the Rebel fleet.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Not at all true. Luke escaped the Death Star before it blew up; the Emperor could have as well, if he hadn't been thrown down an open shaft.

Yes, right, that's also possible.

Then the Emperor does something, likely flies back to his home sweet home, and then reassembles the starfleet (which counts more than enough ships to steamroll the Rebel fleet a great many times in a second Endor-like engagement), perhaps even massing an armada greater than anything the Rebels could have and bury the world of Endor as a punishment, for starters.
If he barely escapes the explosion, then it's perhaps the worst thing that could happen for the Rebels. The first time a Death Star exploded, it was under Tarkin's command. Being cocky and all that, Palpatine probably thought that he could have done a better job with it. But now, he almost died in an even better battle station, and there was no one one to blame safe him and his fancy plan.
It could very well be the end of the trend for super dumb weapons of doom, with Palpatine taking the decision to use the industrial might of the Empire to build more real warships, a new kind of starfighters, and increase the militarization of the galaxy.
He may still build a 60km long flagship if he wants to, with some scaled down superlaser (more than enough to get rid of any worlds, shields or not anyway), etc.

[Mike DiCenso]

Not at all true. Luke escaped the Death Star before it blew up; the Emperor could have as well, if he hadn't been thrown down an open shaft.

That presupposes that Luke or Vader (if Vader has gone back to being Anakin Skywalker) are no longer there to oppose any attempt to escape the dying battlestation. All either one needs to do is to delay him by sacrificing themself and die with Palpatine when the Death Star explodes.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

If the Emperor survives Endor, I see this going in one of two directions:
1-The Emperor learns from his mistakes, and (as has been stated before), stops the "ultimate weapon of DOOOOOMMMMM" idiocies to actually build up the Starfleet, and that way he'd have enough ships to cover the entire Imperial territory and flush out those "rebel scums"...

Or

2-The Emperor, in his Force-induced stupidity, continues with his idiotic "Super-Weapons" program, which results every once in a while with Rebels blowing up his weapon and hampering his plans, while never having the ressources to fully eradicate the Rebels...

I think option 2 is more likely, based on what we've seen in the movies and series up to now...

:)

[Mr. Oragahn]

If the Emperor survives Endor, I see this going in one of two directions:
1-The Emperor learns from his mistakes, and (as has been stated before), stops the "ultimate weapon of DOOOOOMMMMM" idiocies to actually build up the Starfleet, and that way he'd have enough ships to cover the entire Imperial territory and flush out those "rebel scums"...

Or

2-The Emperor, in his Force-induced stupidity, continues with his idiotic "Super-Weapons" program, which results every once in a while with Rebels blowing up his weapon and hampering his plans, while never having the ressources to fully eradicate the Rebels...

I think option 2 is more likely, based on what we've seen in the movies and series up to now...

:)

It can swing both ways. Palpatine could likely keep the DS3 project secret. The problem is that doing something considerably smaller than a DS2 would also be seen as a slap in the face of any crazy megalomaniac who lacks any sense of militaristic strategy.

On the other hand, it means we have to consider Palpatine that stupid. I think the DS2 is easily explained because he still considered it a viable operation, and that the first one was imperfect, and commander by someone who was inferior. Tarkin was good, but it was not the Emperor, and it was not the Emperor with the Force. Proof in case, Vader survived it, and it was destroyed by Luke Skywalker's final run.

It's hard to tell. However, even destroying the DS3 will be terribly harder than ever.

[2046]

If we presume that the Emperor survived and changed tactics to massive shipbuilding and other military enhancements (e.g. manpower) to try to ferret out Rebels, we should also presume that the Rebels could also change tactics, away from 1776 and more toward a (presumably non-terrorist) anti-military 'civilian' insurgency.

But given the widely-held notion that it was in the Emperor's best interest to have the Rebellion around to serve as a constant threat and excuse at least until he got a working Death Star to maintain terror, it follows that he would not change tactics.

After all, if the Rebels went insurgent but not terrorist, there wouldn't be a whole lot of support for him. But so long as they have a starfleet and secret bases and whatnot, they can be claimed as a threat. He needs them big . . . he just let it get out of hand without realizing it.

[Praeothmin]

he just let it get out of hand without realizing it.

Heretic...
That is impossible, since the Emperor himself told Vader that "Everything is going as I have foreseen", so he sees everything and knows everything because of Forc3 Pr3c06 f0r tha WIN... :)

[Jedi Master Spock]

If the Emperor survives Endor, I see this going in one of two directions:
1-The Emperor learns from his mistakes, and (as has been stated before), stops the "ultimate weapon of DOOOOOMMMMM" idiocies to actually build up the Starfleet, and that way he'd have enough ships to cover the entire Imperial territory and flush out those "rebel scums"...

Or

2-The Emperor, in his Force-induced stupidity, continues with his idiotic "Super-Weapons" program, which results every once in a while with Rebels blowing up his weapon and hampering his plans, while never having the ressources to fully eradicate the Rebels...

I think option 2 is more likely, based on what we've seen in the movies and series up to now...

:)

I've been thinking about it, and I've been wondering which lesson the Emperor might take from the destruction of the DS2.

I'm also not sure that it is feasible for the Empire to boost the starfleet enough to control the area. Remember, there are a million worlds in the Empire, and those are being patrolled by 25,000 Star Destroyers.

Suppose that Imperial doctrine calls for using Star Destroyers at the core of all Imperial missions because anything short of a Star Destroyer risks being outmatched by Rebel forces in a chance engagement; even a Star Destroyer is vulnerable when faced with a Mon Calamari cruiser with a fighter escort. Yet what they had was 1 Star Destroyer for every 40 systems in the Empire. In order to be able to lock down a system securely, you're going to need to increase the starfleet enormously - call it a factor of te

Now, is the conventional Imperial Navy's budget less than a tenth of the Death Star construction fund? I should think not, even if the regular ships represented a mere thousandth of the displacement of the Death Star; if it was, then the Empire is actually severely hindered by the destruction of the second Death Star, as most of its discretionary spending had already been allocated to finishing the project. Realigning priorities, canceling contracts, getting refunds, and recycling unused DS2 parts would delay getting that full funding to the fleet.

So I'm not sure option 1 is so viable. It might be the wiser route, but it can't conclusively end all rebellion. If you follow the EU, then the number of hidden Imperial superweapons we see there would suggest Palpatine had a mania for giant boondoggle projects - to an unrealistic point, I think, too many EU authors decided to duplicate the "Let's destroy a superweapon!" template from the movie.

I could see the Emperor building a third Death Star - or trying to build two at once, on the theory that the Rebels won't find out about both of them until too late. Endor didn't point out any flaws in the second Death Star design; it was only vulnerable to the fighter run because it was still under construction.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Now, is the conventional Imperial Navy's budget less than a tenth of the Death Star construction fund? I should think not, even if the regular ships represented a mere thousandth of the displacement of the Death Star; if it was, then the Empire is actually severely hindered by the destruction of the second Death Star, as most of its discretionary spending had already been allocated to finishing the project. Realigning priorities, canceling contracts, getting refunds, and recycling unused DS2 parts would delay getting that full funding to the fleet.

He could play it smart and have the Rebels think he's building a third battle station without giving more than enough material to fuel rumours, this time not giving any solid plan so the Rebels must commit more forces just to know where it is and what to do, while at the same time boosting the recruitment and fleet building.
The Rebels wouldn't exactly know how to react to this.
And everything goes bad if Palpatine goes for smaller WMDs, using the rest of the industrial might for the fleet. The DS2 was nearly twice as big as the first one, so merely building two battle stations even smaller than the first DS, say 100 km wide, would let him enjoy enough leftovers to build much more large ships.

Really, if Palpatine survives, it's rather clear that everybody's screwed. And this time, Palpatine won't take risks with Ewoks.

[sonofccn]

Now, is the conventional Imperial Navy's budget less than a tenth of the Death Star construction fund? I should think not, even if the regular ships represented a mere thousandth of the displacement of the Death Star; if it was, then the Empire is actually severely hindered by the destruction of the second Death Star, as most of its discretionary spending had already been allocated to finishing the project. Realigning priorities, canceling contracts, getting refunds, and recycling unused DS2 parts would delay getting that full funding to the fleet.

He could play it smart and have the Rebels think he's building a third battle station without giving more than enough material to fuel rumours, this time not giving any solid plan so the Rebels must commit more forces just to know where it is and what to do, while at the same time boosting the recruitment and fleet building.
The Rebels wouldn't exactly know how to react to this.
And everything goes bad if Palpatine goes for smaller WMDs, using the rest of the industrial might for the fleet. The DS2 was nearly twice as big as the first one, so merely building two battle stations even smaller than the first DS, say 100 km wide, would let him enjoy enough leftovers to build much more large ships.

Really, if Palpatine survives, it's rather clear that everybody's screwed. And this time, Palpatine won't take risks with Ewoks.

The problem with scaled down superweapons is that besides the EU suncrusher, utilizing a chain reaciton in a star to blow it up where have I seen that before?:), IIRC practicality was not thier primary concern. The Death Star was from a pragmatic stand point a bloated waste of money after all with even a 20th century civilization having more cost effective methods to render a planet lifeless muchless a hyperspace equiped one. The Death Star primary purpuse was to sow terror and any future designs will be as big and imposing as possible to maximise this effect. If palpy decides to continue building superweapons, which his mindset indicates he would, I don't see him moving onto smaller more intelligently designed ones. He will either build an even bigger death star or give up the whole shebang and focus retrofitting the fleet. In both cases he will not be invunerable from attack from the rebellion and throwing ever more money after bad to maintain stability.

So to summarize my innane gibberish I do not believe it is a definative conclusion the Empire, with palpy, could crush the rebellion. I think it could go either way depending what each person does after the POD as well as luck/force.

[Praeothmin]

He will either build an even bigger death star or give up the whole shebang and focus retrofitting the fleet.

He may refit Coruscant into a planetary "Death Star".
It already has all the living quarters, all it would need are a Hyperdrive and a Superlaser... :)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Now, is the conventional Imperial Navy's budget less than a tenth of the Death Star construction fund? I should think not, even if the regular ships represented a mere thousandth of the displacement of the Death Star; if it was, then the Empire is actually severely hindered by the destruction of the second Death Star, as most of its discretionary spending had already been allocated to finishing the project. Realigning priorities, canceling contracts, getting refunds, and recycling unused DS2 parts would delay getting that full funding to the fleet.

He could play it smart and have the Rebels think he's building a third battle station without giving more than enough material to fuel rumours, this time not giving any solid plan so the Rebels must commit more forces just to know where it is and what to do, while at the same time boosting the recruitment and fleet building.
The Rebels wouldn't exactly know how to react to this.
And everything goes bad if Palpatine goes for smaller WMDs, using the rest of the industrial might for the fleet. The DS2 was nearly twice as big as the first one, so merely building two battle stations even smaller than the first DS, say 100 km wide, would let him enjoy enough leftovers to build much more large ships.

Really, if Palpatine survives, it's rather clear that everybody's screwed. And this time, Palpatine won't take risks with Ewoks.

The problem with scaled down superweapons is that besides the EU suncrusher, utilizing a chain reaciton in a star to blow it up where have I seen that before?:), IIRC practicality was not thier primary concern. The Death Star was from a pragmatic stand point a bloated waste of money after all with even a 20th century civilization having more cost effective methods to render a planet lifeless muchless a hyperspace equiped one. The Death Star primary purpuse was to sow terror and any future designs will be as big and imposing as possible to maximise this effect. If palpy decides to continue building superweapons, which his mindset indicates he would, I don't see him moving onto smaller more intelligently designed ones. He will either build an even bigger death star or give up the whole shebang and focus retrofitting the fleet. In both cases he will not be invunerable from attack from the rebellion and throwing ever more money after bad to maintain stability.

So to summarize my innane gibberish I do not believe it is a definative conclusion the Empire, with palpy, could crush the rebellion. I think it could go either way depending what each person does after the POD as well as luck/force.

Palpatine 2.0 used the Eclipse: Not as powerful, the laser was still capable of doing 2/3 of the DET effects described in Death Star. Enough to lay waste to an entire world in one shot, and likely pierce any shield, although in such a scenario, a second shot would be necessary. But once the planet would have lost its shields, people would just coil in fear anyway.