Torpedo glow in VOY: Flashback

[Mr. Oragahn]

Check out those screencaps:
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 24&page=12

I totally landed by accident. Perhaps I'm lucky, but was there something special at play about those torpedoes?
I didn't read the episode summary, but I guess it's part of the flashback. Though, were they normal torpedoes? If yes, and even IF it was part of the holosim (assumption), why did they glow like that then?

[Mike DiCenso]

That's because that effect is ment to mimic the torpedo flares seen in ST:TMP. The three Klingon K'tingas in the attack on V'Ger as seen in the movie's opening fired similar torpedoes, as did later on the refit E-1701 (though that torpedo was bluish-white). Also "Flashback" takes place in Tuvok's memories, not on a holodeck.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwLrEcwtFM4
Indeed, they're similar.

What is rather interesting is that Flashback clearly proves that it's no lens effect.

Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3
Picture 4

On picture 1, 3 and 4, the streaks are not masked by the ship's superstructure. However, on picture 2, even the more opaque and brightest streaks are masked. Simply put, they're physical projections from the torpedoes, not just a visual illusion.

Those in TMP are nice and special. A Klingon torpedo is literally surrounded by a ball with much hard edges (try pausing on this section as they're seen exiting the bow launch tube).

[Mike DiCenso]

No, the flares from the torpedoes are clearly structures of some kind emmanating from teh core glow itself in both cases. Actual lens flare does occur (very briefly) as the second Klingon torp leaves the tube of the lead battlecruiser in the attack on V'Ger, and most especially when V'Ger's digitizing plasma torpedo flys by the camera.

What creates these flares (long or short) and why we don't see them on all torpedoes is a bit of a mystery. I've speculated in the past that they may be type-related, and could be part of some kind of propulsion artifact. In Both ST:TMP and "Flashback", the torpedoes are clearly FTL capable with the "Flashback" torpedoes catching up to the high warp speed Excelsior over what must be a very long distance, and is rare moment in modern Trek where the attacking ship is nowhere to be seen. The ST:TMP torpedoes travel in 20 seconds to the cloud boundry from the approximate edge where the battlecruiser fired it from. Even the emasculated 2 AU diameter V'Ger cloud would still allow for FTL torps as travelling straight in across half an AU's distance in 20 seconds would mean a relative velocity of nearly 7.5 million km (25c) a second! If we use the original 82 AU diameter for the cloud, then the torps' relative velocity goes up to an astounding 1,025c!
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

The speed you claim is excessive. I fail to see evidence that the torps did reach anywhere inside the cloud. To me they've been intercepted before that.
You have the same problem with V'ger's own torpedoes. There's no way it could have traveled such a great distance with torpedoes which were obviously not that fast, which would suggest they were materialized from somewhere in the corona.

As far as I'm concerned, I think the glow is totally related to a very lethal (couldn't be applied to a ship without endangering the crew), short lived (uses lots of power and burns the generator), unstable bursting shield (imagine chaotic amplitudes in a stream).

[Mike DiCenso]

You misunderstand the structure of the cloud; it is a massive series of toroidal shapes as seen in trhe Klingon's own tactical displays as well as the exterior actual visual representation:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thum ... 329&page=2

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd0038.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd0040.jpg

This structure is confirmed later by the Enterprise's own tactical display, which shows the whole cloud:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1293.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thum ... 343&page=3

So the Klingons were well inside the outside edges of the cloud when they fired, and the torpedoes would have had to have travelled at least half an AU before reaching the inner toroidal structure's boundry, which is where they were snuffed out as seen on the Klingon's own tactical display.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

The E-D's torpedo in Generations looks remarkably similar.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thum ... 109&page=4

As far as speed goes, I see no reason the torpedoes couldn't move at FTL speeds. We've seen it happen before. In "The Wounded" the torpedoes covered the 300,000 km between the Pheonix and the warship in a second. In "Half a Life," Dr. Timicin's modified torpedoes cover at least a few light minutes in seconds. The episode states that Timicin's modifications were to the torpedoes' guidance systems, and later Timicin states that it took him "40 years to develop the programming that will control your photon torpedoes." This would seem to imply that the modifications were not major system additions (like Spock and McCoy's torpedo surgery in TUC) but merely computer enhancements that used existing torpedo drive systems.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You misunderstand the structure of the cloud; it is a massive series of toroidal shapes as seen in trhe Klingon's own tactical displays as well as the exterior actual visual representation:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thum ... 329&page=2

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd0038.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd0040.jpg

This structure is confirmed later by the Enterprise's own tactical display, which shows the whole cloud:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd1293.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/thum ... 343&page=3

So the Klingons where well inside the outside edges of the cloud when they fired, and the torpedoes would have had to have travelled at least half an AU before reaching the inner toroidal structure's boundry, which is where they were snuffed out as seen on the Klingon's own tactical display.
-Mike

I know the shape of the cloud, and the tactical doesn't show where the torps disappeared at all.
It's also forced to claim FTL speeds when none of the forces here fired projectiles that moved anywhere that fast or even demonstrated to move in or out of warp at anytime. With V'Ger, you can literally claim that it disintegrated torps just out of nowhere while it also materialized its own projectiles.
FTL speed would explain how projectiles covered great distances, but there's not even any proof that such great distances were covered.

[Mike DiCenso]

Okay, well you've pretty much pulled a Leo1 here, and this discussion is over since you are intentionally ignoring all evidence provided with silly handwaving. It is quite clear on the Klingon's tactical that the torpedoes disappear at the cloud boundry and V'Ger's digitizer bolts appear from the inner cloud boundry as well. The fact that the Klingon ships themselves have to be travelling at warp speed in order to intercept V'Ger in the first place also makes the torpedoes warp capable by default.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Okay, well you've pretty much pulled a Leo1 here, and this discussion is over since you are intentionally ignoring all evidence provided with silly handwaving. It is quite clear on the Klingon's tactical that the torpedoes disappear at the cloud boundry and V'Ger's digitizer bolts appear from the inner cloud boundry as well.

You have no evidence there, I'm sorry. The tactical display just shows the three torps as dots stacked upon a background that is basically the panoramic view of V'Ger on the main screen.
There is no way to gauge distance. If you think you have such evidence, provide it.

The fact that the Klingon ships themselves have to be travelling at warp speed in order to intercept V'Ger in the first place also makes the torpedoes warp capable by default.
-Mike

What? That makes no sense. Prove they were traveling at warp when they fired those torpedoes.

[Mike DiCenso]

You have no evidence there, I'm sorry. The tactical display just shows the three torps as dots stacked upon a background that is basically the panoramic view of V'Ger on the main screen.
There is no way to gauge distance. If you think you have such evidence, provide it.

I have, and I'm calling shennaigans on you here. You are ignoring evidence. If the torps weren't FTL, then why bother shooting them at all? It would take minutes at best for them to travel even half an A.U. to reach V'Ger itself. If V'Ger could snuff out the torps before they reached the cloud boundry, why did it not do so within seconds of the torpedoes' launchings?

The fact that the Klingon ships themselves have to be travelling at warp speed in order to intercept V'Ger in the first place also makes the torpedoes warp capable by default.
-Mike

What? That makes no sense. Prove they were traveling at warp when they fired those torpedoes.

The Enterprise had to intercept V'Ger at warp 7 and neither V'Ger or the Enterprise slowed down at any time during the intial phases of their rendezvous, and it was continuely stated that the intruder would reach Earth in within 2 days. Nowhere does anyone state V'Ger or anyone is slowing down. It was a major plot point that time was running out because of the speed which V'Ger was closing in on Earth. The only change in the clould and V'Ger's speed occurs when it reaches the the solar system.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

You have no evidence there, I'm sorry. The tactical display just shows the three torps as dots stacked upon a background that is basically the panoramic view of V'Ger on the main screen.
There is no way to gauge distance. If you think you have such evidence, provide it.

I have, and I'm calling shennaigans on you here. You are ignoring evidence. If the torps weren't FTL, then why bother shooting them at all? It would take minutes at best for them to travel even half an A.U. to reach V'Ger itself.

And that's supposed to be a problem in space? There is no range as long as the torp can work on minimal power and make course corrections. Its speed can remain constant.
Why the Klingons wouldn't get closer? I think the reasons aren't exactly hard to imagine.

Sidenote: and why didn't the Klingons get away faster?

If V'Ger could snuff out the torps before they reached the cloud boundry, why did it not do so within seconds of the torpedoes' launchings?

Who knows? Perhaps it wasn't sure what to do. It loathed the biological lifeforms crawling inside the ship, but torps don't have such things. It could have very well been in doubt about the nature of those things. Emissaries? Probes? Weapons?
It's not like the probe that sits at its core ever was inhabitated.
So we don't know.
That ignorance, however, is not sufficient to make a claim about relative speed. You must provide that evidence, not speculation.

What? That makes no sense. Prove they were traveling at warp when they fired those torpedoes.

The Enterprise had to intercept V'Ger at warp 7 and neither V'Ger or the Enterprise slowed down at any time during the intial phases of their rendezvous, and it was continuely stated that the intruder would reach Earth in within 2 days. Nowhere does anyone state V'Ger or anyone is slowing down. It was a major plot point that time was running out because of the speed which V'Ger was closing in on Earth. The only change in the clould and V'Ger's speed occurs when it reaches the the solar system.
-Mike

Even if that were true, the torps were still moving slowly in that frame of reference. Perhaps they were moving at warp 7 outside of that warp field, but then everything was moving at warp 7. We've seen torps fired while ships moved at warp, but I'd love to see evidence of torpedoes being capable of increasing their own warp speed significantly.

[Mike DiCenso]

And that's supposed to be a problem in space? There is no range as long as the torp can work on minimal power and make course corrections. Its speed can remain constant.
Why the Klingons wouldn't get closer? I think the reasons aren't exactly hard to imagine.

Sidenote: and why didn't the Klingons get away faster?

From a tactical standpoint it makes little sense to have torpedoes that take such a slow amount of time to reach their target. It also flies in the face of other examples, such as "Flashback", "Encounter at Farpoint", "Half a Life", "Q Who?", and more where torpedoes are clearly warp capable, and as we have seen in "Flashback", the torpedoes actually caught up to and hit the high warp speed Excelsior. Those torpedoes not only look the same, but were likely fired from the same class of K'tinga battlecruisers like the ones that attacked V'Ger.

Also remember the Klingons got hit pretty hard compared to the Enterprise as seen on the Epsilon IX monitors view of the battlecruiser's bridge. They were also in the original theatrical version of the attack stated as "continuing to attack" and the lead Klingon commander had not ordered retreat, but "Evasive!" action. Only when the second ship had been digitized is there any indication of a retreat, but by then it was too late.

Who knows? Perhaps it wasn't sure what to do. It loathed the biological lifeforms crawling inside the ship, but torps don't have such things. It could have very well been in doubt about the nature of those things. Emissaries? Probes? Weapons?
It's not like the probe that sits at its core ever was inhabitated.
So we don't know.
That ignorance, however, is not sufficient to make a claim about relative speed. You must provide that evidence, not speculation.

V'Ger was so highly advanced and had knowledge of the entire universe, I sincerely doubt it was "in doubt" for more than nanoseconds. If it was in doubt of anything, it was probably the initial intent of the Klingon ships themselves, and like with Enterprise later on, was attempting to communicate until the Klingons fired on it.

What? That makes no sense. Prove they were traveling at warp when they fired those torpedoes.

The Enterprise had to intercept V'Ger at warp 7 and neither V'Ger or the Enterprise slowed down at any time during the intial phases of their rendezvous, and it was continuely stated that the intruder would reach Earth in within 2 days. Nowhere does anyone state V'Ger or anyone is slowing down. It was a major plot point that time was running out because of the speed which V'Ger was closing in on Earth. The only change in the clould and V'Ger's speed occurs when it reaches the the solar system.

-Mike

Even if that were true, the torps were still moving slowly in that frame of reference. Perhaps they were moving at warp 7 outside of that warp field, but then everything was moving at warp 7. We've seen torps fired while ships moved at warp, but I'd love to see evidence of torpedoes being capable of increasing their own warp speed significantly.

The "Flashback torpedoes as well as the "Half a Life" torpedoes are just that. The fact that the Enterprise had to make a warp speed intercept indicates that the Klingons had to do the same as well, and therefore any torpedoes they fired also had to accelerate while at warp. More interesting in regards to V'Ger's plasma weapons, they did not do a straight from the heart of the cloud to Enterprise intercept since the Enterprise was stated to be using a conic section flight path which means both plasma weapon and starship were flying eliptical or parabola shaped flight paths around the center of the cloud. So even with the Director's Cut 2 AU V'Ger cloud, it still requires a relatively fast intercept by Enterprise at high warp (the Enterprise being at warp the whole time is supported additionally by the fact that the warp nacelles and navigational deflector are glowing substantially. When at sublight, neither showed significant glow). The same would likely be true of the Klingons.
-Mike