Star Wars: Fighters vs Capital Ships revisited

[Nonamer]

The ICS figures have already been shown to correspond with the movies by Mike Wong and Brian Young.

We've discussed this a lot on this thread: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38

ICS does not correspond with the movies very well.

[Who is like God arbour]

Exactly!

The weapons on their fighters m i g h t not be able to penetrate the shields of the Trade Federation Ship.

There was a realistic chance, that they could have penetrated the shields. The shields could have been only marginal stronger than the weapons on their fighters.

Otherwise he would have stated that the weapons on their fighters are not able to penetrate the shields of the Trade Federation Ship.

They tried it because they were desperate and a million to one shot was all they had.

Very convincing. Do you belief that really?

Even if they were desperate, the attack on the Trade Federation Ship was unnecessary for their plan to capture Nute Gunray.

It could only helped the Gungans. But nobody with a sane mind would base a whole battle plan on the offchance that a "million to one shot" could damage or destroy the Trade Federation Ship.

[Who is like God arbour]

In case you didn't notice the plan was constructed by the Queen not the pilots and the head of palace security only advised on retaking the palace.

There is no evidence, that he plan was constructed by the Queen allone.

Do you really think, that she wouldn't have consulted more experienced people?

And if not, do you really think, that nobody would have said something.

She was not the Queen from the Gungans and from Obi Wan and Qui-Gon Jinn. If they thought, that the plan was insane, they would have said something.

[Gandalf]

There was a realistic chance, that they could have penetrated the shields. The shields could have been only marginal stronger than the weapons on their fighters.

No there wasn't, in fact the entire attack was a complete failure until Anakin got lucky and crashed into the landing bay.

Otherwise he would have stated that the weapons on their fighters are not able to penetrate the shields of the Trade Federation Ship.

He tried to convince the Queen that her plan was tactically unsound and she didn't listen and he was correct. Once again I will point out that the attack was failing until Anakin crashed into the landing bay.

Very convincing. Do you belief that really?

Even if they were desperate, the attack on the Trade Federation Ship was unnecessary for their plan to capture Nute Gunray.

It could only helped the Gungans. But nobody with a sane mind would base a whole battle plan on the offchance that a "million to one shot" could damage or destroy the Trade Federation Ship.

No I don't believe that attacking the Trade Federation Ship was needed. I think that part of the plan was full of it and doomed to fail but the Queen isn't exactly a tactical genius.

[Gandalf]

There is no evidence, that he plan was constructed by the Queen allone.

Do you really think, that she wouldn't have consulted more experienced people?

By all means show that she did. Even if she did it only shows that they were wrong annd Qui Gon was right.

And if not, do you really think, that nobody would have said something.

She was not the Queen from the Gungans and from Obi Wan and Qui-Gon Jinn. If they thought, that the plan was insane, they would have said something.

Gui Gon did say something and the Gungans were not a space faring people, what would they know about attacking a starship? It's pretty clear that they were only involved in the land based planning and attack.

[Who is like God arbour]

I think that part of the plan was full of it and doomed to fail but the Queen isn't exactly a tactical genius.

Maybe not. But she can't be so incompetent, that she would try to stop a tank with pieces of cotton wool.

And it would be the same, if the Trade Federation Ship would have shields, which aren't penetrable on some magnitudes by their fighter weapons.

[Gandalf]

We've discussed this a lot on this thread: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38

ICS does not correspond with the movies very well.

All you people have done in that thread is trot out the same tired arguments against the ICS that we've seen for years and Kane Starkiller did a pretty good job of refuting that before getting fed up with it. I see no reason to comment further on it.

[Gandalf]

Maybe not. But she can't be so incompetent, that she would try to stop a tank with pieces of cotton wool.

And it would be the same, if the Trade Federation Ship would have shields, which aren't penetrable on some magnitudes by their fighter weapons.

And your proof that the Queen of Naboo is tactically competant is?

[Who is like God arbour]

By all means show that she did.

It is a question of probabilities.

What is more likely?

That she thinks, she can orchestrate a whole battle plan allone or that she consulted more experienced people [offscreen]?

I think, the latter is more likely. She can't be that dump and that arrogant. After all, she was elected as queen and later got Senator.

And do you think, that the people of Naboo would elect someone as Queen, who is so dump how you suggest she is.

Wouldn't there be more examples of such silliness on her part?

She may be young and naive but not so dump or arrogant that she doesn't know where are her limitations.

[Dragoon]

We've discussed this a lot on this thread: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38

ICS does not correspond with the movies very well.

All you people have done in that thread is trot out the same tired arguments against the ICS that we've seen for years and Kane Starkiller did a pretty good job of refuting that before getting fed up with it. I see no reason to comment further on it.

If you're so sure, come over and try to refute them instead of waving your hand and saying "It is refuted."

[Who is like God arbour]

Maybe not. But she can't be so incompetent, that she would try to stop a tank with pieces of cotton wool.

And it would be the same, if the Trade Federation Ship would have shields, which aren't penetrable on some magnitudes by their fighter weapons.

And your proof that the Queen of Naboo is tactically competant is?

I have not said, that she is tactically competent. I have said, that she can't be so incompetent as you suggest. There is a difference.

Maybe you should proof, that against all odds, she is so incompetent as you suggest, if you think, that she would throw pieces of cotton wool to stop a tank.

But for this proof, you can't use the fact that she has send starfighters to destroy the Trade Federation Ship. That would be a circular argument.

You have to show, that she is so dump or arrogant, that she doesn't know her own limitations.

If she ist, than there would be more examples of such silliness on her part. Show them!

[Dragoon]

Maybe not. But she can't be so incompetent, that she would try to stop a tank with pieces of cotton wool.

And it would be the same, if the Trade Federation Ship would have shields, which aren't penetrable on some magnitudes by their fighter weapons.

And your proof that the Queen of Naboo is tactically competant is?

By the same token, you could ask what proof there is that any Imperial Commanders are tactically compenent. We already know that Ozzle was a total buffoon and Piet, although surviving for a year or two, didn't show any great military genius either. Tarkin was so confident in his battle station that he didn't even launch the Death Star's full fighter complement. Needa seemed decent, but Vader executed him. The fool in command of the SD that got ion cannoned couldn't even stop a transport escorted by two fighters. He didn't even have a fighter screen deployed!

Everything we have seen on-screen points to the total and complete incompetence of most Imperial Naval personel. Your own logic works against you.

[Gandalf]

It is a question of probabilities.

What is more likely?

That she thinks, she can orchestrate a whole battle plan allone or that she consulted more experienced people [offscreen]?

I think, the latter is more likely. She can't be that dump and that arrogant. After all, she was elected as queen and later got Senator.

The fact that she was elected Queen has nothing to do with tactical ability and everything to do with political saavy. Tell me, do you think that George W Bush is a great military strategist? And she wasn't elected senator, the new Queen of Naboo asked her to serve as senator.

And do you think, that the people of Naboo would elect someone as Queen, who is so dump how you suggest she is.

Why not? The world is replete with examples of idiots being elected. And once again I will point out that being a skillful politician has nothing to do with tactical ability. You can be the greatest statesmen that ever lived and be a lousy strategist.

Wouldn't there be more examples of such silliness on her part?

We don't see enough of her reign to make a judgement.

She may be young and naive but not so dump or arrogant that she doesn't know where are her limitations.

Once again we don't see enough of her reign to make a judgement besides commiting her fighters to a fight they couldn't win.

[Gandalf]

By the same token, you could ask what proof there is that any Imperial Commanders are tactically compenent. We already know that Ozzle was a total buffoon and Piet, although surviving for a year or two, didn't show any great military genius either. Tarkin was so confident in his battle station that he didn't even launch the Death Star's full fighter complement. Needa seemed decent, but Vader executed him. The fool in command of the SD that got ion cannoned couldn't even stop a transport escorted by two fighters. He didn't even have a fighter screen deployed!

Everything we have seen on-screen points to the total and complete incompetence of most Imperial Naval personel. Your own logic works against you.

You will note that I never expressed an opinion on Imperial competance. You have no point to make. In fact your entire argument is a red herring.

[Who is like God arbour]

And she wasn't elected senator, the new Queen of Naboo asked her to serve as senator.

I haven't said that she was elected senator.
But would you send a goon in the Senate to represent your people?

The fact that she was elected Queen has nothing to do with tactical ability

Correct.

You can be the greatest statesmen that ever lived and be a lousy strategist.

WRONG

To "be greatest statesmen that ever lived", you have to know your own limitations. You can't be good at all areas. You have to consult with more experienced people and delegate some tasks. Sure, in the end, you decide and have the responsibility but before you would deliberate.

We don't see enough of her reign to make a judgement.

They have tried to change the constitution to re-elect her. It seems, that the people of Naboo were exceedingly content with her reign.

We don't see enough of her reign to make a judgement.

With other words, there is nothing, which imply, that Amidala is dumb and some references, which imply the contrary.

And if she isn't dumb, she would have consulted more experienced people. She would have known, that she isn't competent enough to orchestrate the whole battle plan allone, from which depends the future of all Naboos and Gungans.