Star Wars: Fighters vs Capital Ships revisited

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:47 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:
With all due respect, I am still waiting.

What is your proof, that Amidala doesn't have known, what she was doing?
The fact that she had no military training and that Qui Gon Jinn advised her against attacking the Trade Federation vessel.
As I have said already, she wouldn't have need military training or tactical competence.

She only have to consult with someone, who has it.

And Qui-Gonn Jinn has not advised her against attacking the Trade Federation vessel. He has only given something to consider.

Amidala: What Do you think, Master Jedi?

Qui-Gonn Jinn: The viceroy will be well guarded.

Captain Panaka: The difficulty is getting into the throne room. Once we are inside, we shouldn't have a problem.

Qui-Gonn Jinn: There is a possibility, with this diversion, many Gungans will be killed

Boss Nass: Wesa ready to do our-san part

Amidala: We have a plan which should immobilize the droid army. We will send what pilots we have to knock out the droid control ship orbiting the planet.

Qui-Gonn Jinn: A well conceived-plan. However there's great risk. The weapons on your fighters may not penetrate their shields.

Obi Wan: Ther's an even bigger danger. If the viceroy escapes, Your Highness, he will return with another droid army.

Amidala: Well, that is why we must not fail to get the viceroy. Everything depends on it.
Qui-Gonn Jinn is not sure, that the weapons on the fighters may penetrate the shields. That is only a possibility. And it can only be a possibility, if the shield could be only marginal stronger than the weapons on the fighters. Otherwise he would have stated that the weapons on their fighters are not able to penetrate the shields of the Trade Federation Ship.

And he has not advised against attacking the Trade Federation vessel. He has only given something to consider. It was a risk, which they have taken because it was not such a great risk.




Everything depends on getting the viceroy. For this goal, the attack on the Trade Federation vessel was not necessary. It was only undertaken to help the Gungans. They wasn't desperate. "A million to one shot" was not all they had. Nothing would have changed, if they wouldn't have attacked the Trade Federation vessel.

The droid army would not be immobilized after the Trade Federation vessel was destroyed. But than, they would have forced the viceroy to surrender and to deactivate the droids.

Sure, it was a risky plan. But it has had a realistic chance of success. At least, nobody has raised rooted objections. And that would happened, if there was no realistic chance to damage or destroy the Trade Federation vessel.

If you think, that this plan was stupid, what would you have done better.

This plan can only be stupid, if there were better alternatives.
Last edited by Who is like God arbour on Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Dragoon » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:51 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Dragoon wrote:
You still haven't addressed his arguement.
What's to address, the man has clearly lost his marbles. And it calls in to question the nature of his analysis.
THis is an ad homenim attack.

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Post by Nonamer » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:52 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Dragoon wrote:
You still haven't addressed his arguement.
What's to address, the man has clearly lost his marbles. And it calls in to question the nature of his analysis.
The same can be said of Mike Wong and Saxton too. Either address their arguments or concede. An ad hominem is not a valid argument.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:54 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:

Excuse me? Did you even read the article, or did you just dismiss it out of hand because he comes to a conclusion you don't like? What about what he wrote in the article that you find "full of it"? His calculations of 7-10 MT for a Republic-era TL's firepower is actually fairly generous, especially since low gigajoule and terajoule firepower is what the TESB asteroid destruction and the RoTS Slave-I Geonosis asteroid destruction are what the showing us.
-Mike
The man is mentally unbalanced and it's well known that he BS'd his way through his debate with Darth Wong. Add to that his complete lack of scientific training and that leads me to the conclusion that if he were to say that the sky was blue I'd check first.

Since the best that you can come up with as refutiation of his essay is a cheap Ad Hominem attack, then I take it you concede all the points.
-Mike

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Post by Kazeite » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:02 pm

Gandalf wrote:And I have not claimed excessive competance for any SW character.
No, you haven't.
And as I have previously noted Kane Starkiller already refuted those.
Then you are mistaken. Yes, he tried to refute them, but failed. Sorry. The ICS numbers were shown to be incorrect, "logical process that Dr Saxton used to arrive at the numbers" was shown to be flawed as well and LFL is starting to acknowledge that as well.
Yes it should. Whether the numbers fit into a galaxy wide civilisation is of paramount concern.
And who decides whether the numbers fit or not? Oh yeah - the creator(s)! Not the fans.
Well when they declare the ICS non-canon let me know.
They don't have to declare the entire ICS non-canon, you realize that?

And, again, it's kind of fascinating that you seem to seriously believe that Darth Wong was anything but thoroughly defeated in his debate with Darkstar. The man couldn't even form a decent argument...
Last edited by Kazeite on Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dartan » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:06 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Dragoon wrote:
Maybe it's because they can deflect blaster bolts and slice and dice people with their nifty lightsabers. They're warriors, not military tacticians. After all, there's no on-screen evidence to show that Qui-Gon knew what he was talking about either. They were probably just giving the Jedi ranks for morale purposes.
Cute.
I don't see what's so cute about it, considering you used the exact same arguement against Lando.

Anyway, here are those snapshots. They're not the best as my frame by frame has a crappy pause ability.

The X-wing opens fire
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/ ... -13327.png

The X-wing's lasers impact on the shields, which flare and attempt to diffuse the energy
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/ ... -17546.png

Further shots penetrate the shields, causing damage to the superstructure
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/ ... -16167.png]

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Post by Dragoon » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:08 pm

Dartan wrote:
Gandalf wrote:
Dragoon wrote:
Maybe it's because they can deflect blaster bolts and slice and dice people with their nifty lightsabers. They're warriors, not military tacticians. After all, there's no on-screen evidence to show that Qui-Gon knew what he was talking about either. They were probably just giving the Jedi ranks for morale purposes.
Cute.
I don't see what's so cute about it, considering you used the exact same arguement against Lando.

Anyway, here are those snapshots. They're not the best as my frame by frame has a crappy pause ability.

The X-wing opens fire
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/ ... -13327.png

The X-wing's lasers impact on the shields, which flare and attempt to diffuse the energy
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/ ... -17546.png

Further shots penetrate the shields, causing damage to the superstructure
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/ ... -16167.png]
Thanks!

Maybe you could toss in the torpedo-type projectile as well?

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:32 pm

Gandalf wrote:You can take your handjob and shove it up your a$$. As for the rest of your argument, it doesn't even merit a response.

*snip boring text*

The man is mentally unbalanced
And you may also consider yourself warned to remain polite at all times. I had hoped that this would stop when I warned Mr. Oragahn.

This means not flaming other posters, for the record, or baiting them by quoting their posts as "snip boring text" and replying to them anyway. If you are not familiar with the rules, read them.
Gandalf wrote:It's interesting that "my version" is shared by the majority of SDN while you sit in your little fortress of solitude and pretend to be enlightened. If your so sure of your views on canon and SW then I suggest you go to SDN and SB and actually debate with those you snipe at from afar.
The view that any of the following characters are incompetent to the degree necessary to assume that they don't know what they talking about is unusual among a Star Wars fan. To suggest that all of these would be is remarkable for anyone not part of a particular small community within the fanbase.
  • General Lando Calrissian.
  • Qui-Gon Jinn.
  • Admiral Ackbar.
  • Queen Amidala.
  • Luke Skywalker.
  • Han Solo.
  • Chewbacca.
I could go on, but suffice it to say that I am unconvinced by the vast majority of appeals to shocking ignorance on the part of a character.

Now, as far as calling this place a "fortress of solitude," I recommend you carefully review this thread. The whole thing.

In case you haven't noticed, we at SFJ have yet to ban any human posters for any length of time. Registration on this board is open, i.e., not by policy subject to fees or administrative fiat. You are quite welcome to display disagreement here, and staff will not engage in favoritism based on what ideological camp they identify you as belonging in. Even the main website links extensively and deeply to fansites dedicated to camps of the debate that refuse to link to each other.

If you wish to examine this topic in more detail, you are welcome to start a fresh thread in the appropriate forum section to support your assertion that SB and SDN make SFJ look like a fortress of solitude.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:05 am

I never disputed that the backup bridge's inability to retake control of the ship presented a flaw.
But your whole defense when I pointed out the vulnerability of the main bridge was to point to those backup bridges.
I simply reminded you how apparently those backups aren't quite reliable, and finally, this doesn't preclude the idea that brdiges are absurdly underprotected.
I see that since you had nothing to say besides evasive sentences, you painfully admit that a barrage of megatons of firepower on specific holes is still going to knock out shields.
And as I demonstrated, there are quite many of those weakspots, located at key points.
I don't expect alot of agreement on my points from any of you.
For obvious reasons, since we actually pay attention to dialogue and movie facts.
You have people in charge considering that fighters represent a danger to cruisers. You have fighters seen piercing shields with laser cannons. You have fighters noticed as heading towards capital ships.

All you bring in opposition to that is nothing safe your sacronumbers where kiloton level canon lasers would have no hope of ever defeating shields which supposedly have radiation rates of several teratons per second (like 143 TT/s for the Trade Federation core ships in ROTS or AOTC, can't remember).

The fact is you won't admit that thus far, you've provided little to no evidence, personnal reflexion, objective observation or basic logic. You're just defending yourself by appeals to authority and picking lines from the ICS, like if it was the book of Origin.
On this basis, you're not doing any better than all those believers Wong is pleased to mock.
First you whine that the numbers are wrong then you claim that the logic is wrong. Make up your mind.
It would actually help if you'd think about it.
The numbers, as figures, are wrong (though mathematically correct) since the logic behind them is originally wrong.
Doctor Who is watched in both Canada, the US and the Commonwealth which extends to over 20 countries. Hardly a niche market. And the secret motivations of SDN are irrelevant. Frankly this boards obsession with SDN is creepy and disturbing.
Not even worth a blip on Europe's radar unless you really make efforts to find an obscure channel airing some unknown episodes late in the night.
Dr. Saxton drew from material for AOTC not from the EU, someone posted the interview where he explains his methods. Go back and read it. He used pre-production reels, storyboards and concept art. He did not take from the EU. That is basing directly on the film. Your argument is baseless.
You're unfortunately not getting my point, and repeating the same stuff like a broken record.
I don't care where he took his info from.
Firstly because the so called backstage sources he used disagree a lot with what finally made onto the screen. Secondly, because what he invented as an author is nothing more than EU extra.
You know, all authors based their stories from the movies.
The movies are more canon than any backstage stuff used to create them.
By your flawed logic, they're even more canon than the ICS.
Tthe ships are described as being exhausted from hours of fighting
Probably because they were defending the Invisible Hand during the kidnapping.
It does not explain why they sat there for so long after Palpatine was captured.
Your understanding holds no interest for me.
A pity. Then why do you even bother coming here, if you're not expecting an exchange of ideas?
Are you just preaching your religious babble, only to come in a couple of days and see what we think about it? :)
You still have yet to produce your own numbers or methods for review.
You're hopeless. Did you even bother to look at the Turbolaser pages? It's been years since I've been pointing how they happily keep inventing so called asteroids while they're just TL explosions.
Why? Just to get more "evidence" of asteroid vaporization. Wong is not even ashamed of keeping this page up.
Actually, I'm glad he keeps it in place.
It just demonstrates the absurd frontiers they're reaching.
It's interesting that "my version" is shared by the majority of SDN while you sit in your little fortress of solitude and pretend to be enlightened. If your so sure of your views on canon and SW then I suggest you go to SDN and SB and actually debate with those you snipe at from afar.
Well, funny how SDN is often seen a secular fortress as well. They all share that form of canon? A pity, because it just means that none of them understands the basic meaning of Chee's words.
But considering how they're happy to declare bits of the EU non canon just because they don't like them, and invent rules to define what's more canon than the rest, then fine.
I guess that's just more delusion from their part.
They don't even fully realize that LFL are giving them polite up yours.
No I claimed he was an amateur when he started out not by the time he got Rogue Squadron.
And when he started, he was not in charge of anything. Make your mind.
Or better. Drop that stupid argument.
As I have previously stated your refusal to accept facts is not my problem. I do not feel the need to restate my position endlessly.
You're actually expected to start your demonstration.
Or, eventually, if you think I am that mistaken, please point me to the post of yours. For enlightment.
I made no claims about Thrawn from any position.
It's funny how you don't understand the implication of your claims.
Fortunately, I'm convinced that the other members here have, for a majority, understood how you cornered yourself.
Perhaps I simply do not care for the state of the EU.
No comment.
No if it hadn't worked they all would have been killed or at the very least the Alliance fleet would have been crippled.
And as I said, Ackbar had the choice to order everyone to leave the combat zone, or to continue.
He chose to continue, and acknowledged Lando's advice to increase their chances of survival.
Now please make an effort, because this is not hard to understand at all.

Gandalf wrote:
Dragoon wrote:
You still haven't addressed his arguement.
What's to address, the man has clearly lost his marbles. And it calls in to question the nature of his analysis.
That, my friend, is pathetic.
You're constantly resorting on appeals to ridicule, refusing to read one's observations because you've tagged him as a simpleton.
Actually, with such a logic, between him and you, guess who's the fool.
That said, if you're going to satisfy yourself with those fallacious stances, I can only advise you to enjoy your stay while you still can.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:43 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Are you just preaching your religious babble, only to come in a couple of days and see what we think about it?

You're hopeless.

I can only advise you to enjoy your stay while you still can.
Mr. Oragahn, please review my previous post in detail. Read the enforcement policy.

Right now, he is no closer to being banned than you are, and I am not going to ban anyone for committing logical fallacies.

In fact, as I find myself obliged to remind you that the board rules require you to extend courtesy to your fellow board members themselves, you might think of yourself as closer after this post. Please do not to post in anger.

I am quite serious about enforcing the rules in fair, consistent, and unbiased fashion, and I don't appreciate veiled threats apparently made on my behalf.

That said... Gandalf, pay attention to this post for a minute. Do not expect the other people on this forum to (A) listen to you or (B) accord you much respect if you don't start backing up your claims with more substance. Perhaps SFJ forums require more rigorous arguments than you are accustomed to supplying on other boards; keep this in mind.

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:56 am

Gandalf wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote:
With all due respect, I am still waiting.

What is your proof, that Amidala doesn't have known, what she was doing?
The fact that she had no military training and that Qui Gon Jinn advised her against attacking the Trade Federation vessel.
As I have said already, she wouldn't have need military training or tactical competence.

She only have to consult with someone, who has it.

And Qui-Gonn Jinn has not advised her against attacking the Trade Federation vessel. He has only given something to consider.

Amidala: What Do you think, Master Jedi?

Qui-Gonn Jinn: The viceroy will be well guarded.

Captain Panaka: The difficulty is getting into the throne room. Once we are inside, we shouldn't have a problem.

Qui-Gonn Jinn: There is a possibility, with this diversion, many Gungans will be killed

Boss Nass: Wesa ready to do our-san part

Amidala: We have a plan which should immobilize the droid army. We will send what pilots we have to knock out the droid control ship orbiting the planet.

Qui-Gonn Jinn: A well conceived-plan. However there's great risk. The weapons on your fighters may not penetrate their shields.

Obi Wan: Ther's an even bigger danger. If the viceroy escapes, Your Highness, he will return with another droid army.

Amidala: Well, that is why we must not fail to get the viceroy. Everything depends on it.
Qui-Gonn Jinn is not sure, that the weapons on the fighters may penetrate the shields. That is only a possibility. And it can only be a possibility, if the shield could be only marginal stronger than the weapons on the fighters. Otherwise he would have stated that the weapons on their fighters are not able to penetrate the shields of the Trade Federation Ship.

And he has not advised against attacking the Trade Federation vessel. He has only given something to consider. It was a risk, which they have taken because it was not such a great risk.




Everything depends on getting the viceroy. For this goal, the attack on the Trade Federation vessel was not necessary. It was only undertaken to help the Gungans. They wasn't desperate. "A million to one shot" was not all they had. Nothing would have changed, if they wouldn't have attacked the Trade Federation vessel.

The droid army would not be immobilized after the Trade Federation vessel was destroyed. But than, they would have forced the viceroy to surrender and to deactivate the droids.

Sure, it was a risky plan. But it has had a realistic chance of success. At least, nobody has raised rooted objections. And that would happened, if there was no realistic chance to damage or destroy the Trade Federation vessel.

If you think, that this plan was stupid, what would you have done better?

This plan can only be stupid, if there were better alternatives.

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Post by watchdog » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:15 am

Wow this argument is getting kinda silly now, I find the constant bringing up of MW and the ICS as proof of something a bit sad. What proof has MW shown that the calcs in the ICS are correct, seeing as how there is not one single scene throughout any of the movies that even suggests firepower of that magnitude (I am not including the Death Star for obvious reasons). Can you point to any scene in any movie that shows 200 gt turbolasers (I know the usuall tactic is to cry Death Star, Death Star, Death Star, scale it down, scale it down scale it down. I personally find such cries silly and useless, deal with the weapon itself not pick the biggest most powerful example of a weapon and try to scale it down based off of a lot of speculation).
It is my understanding that the asteroid that hit Earth and killed off the dinosaurs was rated at or near 100 gt, and now all of a sudden these weapons are an extinction level event with a single shot! Sorry I'm not that gullible.
The pictures in the ICS are nice, some of the written information is useful, but as anyone who has seen any of the movies and has even an inkling of an idea about levels of firepower can recognize that there is not one shred of proof to base these outlandish figures off of.

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Post by AnonymousRedShirtEnsign » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:29 am

Just so people know, the claims about Saxton relying on the EU rather than the films is about his Turbolaser Commentaries pages rather than the ICS, though the EU is how he justifies his firepower numbers. As has been stated, for the ICS books he used preproduction concept art.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:30 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Are you just preaching your religious babble, only to come in a couple of days and see what we think about it?

You're hopeless.

I can only advise you to enjoy your stay while you still can.
Mr. Oragahn, please review my previous post in detail. Read the enforcement policy.

Right now, he is no closer to being banned than you are, and I am not going to ban anyone for committing logical fallacies.

In fact, as I find myself obliged to remind you that the board rules require you to extend courtesy to your fellow board members themselves, you might think of yourself as closer after this post. Please do not to post in anger.

I am quite serious about enforcing the rules in fair, consistent, and unbiased fashion, and I don't appreciate veiled threats apparently made on my behalf.
Anger? That's a *big* word. I'm more annoyed than anything else. :)
Annoyed by the kind of behaviour our friend is displaying here. I can smell guys like him miles away. They come here, insisting for days on points never backed up, full of absurd rhetoric supported by only two seconds of reflexion, openly admiting not caring about listening to what people have to say, resorting to ad hominems to ditch any analysis, taking refuge in books with a fervent faith without eventually reconsidering the idea that those books might be wrong, and clearly demonstrating this in a crystal clear view for everyone to see. We've had like six pages of useless "exchanges", if we can call them that, right now, because he obtusely insists on the same unsupported shallow points, and it's not going to get any better.
So if you're fine with that kind of non social behaviour, which is quite odd since it comes as the antithesis of the purpose of a forum, then so be it.
I'm probably sure the naïve warning you adressed him was a perfect waste of bytes btw, since if he really understands it, he'd have displayed a different behaviour from the get go.
But I know what to do to simplify the issue. I'm gonna let you guys deal with him. Good luck. ;)

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:32 pm

Anger? That's a *big* word. I'm more annoyed than anything else. :)
Annoyed by the kind of behaviour our friend is displaying here
It's still not worth being disrespectful over, IMO.
Even though you don't agree with him, you started implying things like "handjob" and stuff like that, so I'm sure he felt he could then answer you with similar remarks.
If you don't agree with what he said, just say so, tell you feel he is continuously repeating himself without proving anything, and that until he does, you will simply not respond to his posts.

In turn, you could write in one posts all the arguments in favor of your conclusions, demonstrate what you mean, proving it, and then asking if he would like to respond to your proof with his counter proof.

And Gandalf, I have to agree that, although some of your points about not needing to be a military genious to be a good politician were, IMO, truly valid (as you demonstrated, no, as you proved with the George Bush example), most of your other rebuttals were simply repeating Ad Vitam Eternam that those points had already been debunked by so and so, without providing a shred of evidence.

It was still not a reason for Mr. Oragahn to be inpolite, but instead of reciprocating, you should have simply called him on it and asked that he remain civil in this debate.

Basically, all I'm saying is that you can totally disagree while acting in a civilized manner towards one another.
:)

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