The Federation can be killed by the Empire

[Trinoya]

Motion for closure of yet another 'young' thread... and for banning...

Edit:

Youngla has demonstrated a disprespect for member for merely disagreeing with his points rather than actually attempting to debate.

I question if Youngla understands the terminology being used within the debate or if he is truly familiar with the source material.

Youngla has repeatedly attacked Mike for no reason other than mike posting in response... the attacks have been far above what is considered normally acceptable here and even what we allow in some of our more heated debates.

Youngla is refusing to engage in any sort of formal debate style and instead appears to be stealing all his argument from SDN and taking them as pure gospel.


To Youngla:

If you do not wish engage in reasoned discussion and simply believe you can weasel out of whatever rules we have by immediately apologizing about it but then turning around and repeating those same actions I sincerely hope you recognize that you're denying yourself from one of the most friendly open boards out there.

To JMS: I'm sorry if it seems I'm jumping a gun here, but I'm not taking kindly to this trolling behavior. This is simply my opinion on the matter, though I'm reasonably sure he is simply looking to be fed at this point and has no intent to engage in meaningful discussion.

I believe his comments in regards to having to be a fan of star trek or star wars, or perhaps the ones in regards to refuting his points are evidence enough for my stance.

[Youngla0450]

I might as well stop posting threads that can be harmful to the greater community. I will debate with a clear, organized, respectful style now.

[Mike DiCenso]

Youngla, it is not the threads you are posting that are the problem, it is how you react to people who respond to what you post that is the issue. It's fine that you believe the Federation can be beaten by the Galactic Empire, but if you provide evidence that cannot stand up to scrutiny and reasonable debate, then it it is worthless. That is how the Scientific Method works. You make some observations, you formulate a theory, then you gather observations and data to support your theory, and then you put that out for your peers to review. The fact that I and others found fault in your data and observations is to be expected. You have to expect this. That you throw a tantrum like a little child does not help your postion, and you lose a great deal of credibility. You either need to modify your theory, or you need to go back and gather more and better observations and hard evidence, or both.

For an example how to do this in the right way, go take a look at the "Enterprise NX-01 vs Normandy SR-2 (Mass Effect)" thread by Stargazer. He did not throw a fit when I presented evidence that the NX-01 phase cannon mods were likely still in place, he just came up with reason why it would it would not still have them, but ultimately dropped that in the face of the evidence provided. Overall, people are more leaning in favor of the SR-2 winning, than they are of the NX-01, though it is believed it would be a very close fight.
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

I must not throw temper tantrums. I am going to begin my debating in a clear and organized manner. I will provide more evidence. Anyways, I have found a site in which a lot of information on the Empire is provided:
This provides information on the politics and government of the Empire:

http://www.domuspublica.net/all_the_emperors_men.html

This provides information on the local government of the Empire:

http://www.domuspublica.net/rattling_the_saber.html

And this provides information on the government and star-fleet of the Federation:

http://www.domuspublica.net/brave_new_world.html

[Mike DiCenso]

There are number of flaws in those essays in just scanning through them. In the one on Star Trek's Federation, for instance, it uses information from the non-canon ST:TMP novelization to make it's case about mind control and promiscuity, showing that the author either is ignorant of, or is willfully ignoring what is canon for the franchise in order to paint the most negative view of the Federation. If we could use the novelizations or any of the Star Trek EU as if it were canon, there would a helluva lot of stuff that could be used to make the Federation look very powerful as well very capitalist.

For example, in the ST:TMP novelization on page 146, when Spock informs everyone that the V'Ger cloud is "twelfth power" magnitude, Kirk in shock realizes that twelfth power cloud is enough energy to stop the Earth's sun from rotating. Given that the Sun masses at 1.9891×10^30 kg, it would take up to 1.4 x10^36 J to stop the sun which has an equitorial rotational velocity of 7.189×103 km/h from rotating.

In the movie Decker says that "thousands of starships couldn't generate that much.", which implies that it should be possible for a number of starships in the ten thousand plus number range to do so. Which means we would have starships running around capable of generating 1.4 x 10^32 watts at maximum output! Even if we used lower numbers, say the rotational energy of the Earth which would be around 2.14×10^29 J, we would still be seeing starships with exawatt range warp core power.
-Mike

[The Dude]

I don't think Publius's intention was to create a canon compatible essay but rather one that he found the most satisfying personally. As a matter of fact, I don't think he's ever advertised any of his work as anything but a hobby.

[Mike DiCenso]

Be that as it may, I found these passages here where he is very pro-Federation, and even comes to the same conclusion we already have about the size of the Federation, though he stops just short of really giving it higher numbers:


In 2267, Captain James T. Kirk described the territorial extent of the United Federation by saying “we’re on a thousand planets and
spreading out” (“Metamorphosis”). In 2369, however, Captain Benjamin L. Sisko claimed that the United Federation consisted of
“over a hundred planets who have allied themselves for mutual scientific, cultural, and defensive benefits” (“Battle Lines”), and by
2373 Captain Jean-Luc Picard claimed that it included “over one hundred and fifty planets spread across eight thousand light years”
(Star Trek: First Contact; due to the vagaries of time travel, Picard actually made this claim in 2063). The drastic difference between
Kirk’s numbers and Sisko’s and Picard’s is probably due to a difference in emphasis; Kirk was very likely talking about the total
number of planets in the United Federation, including colonies, while Sisko and Picard were referring to full members only of the
United Federation (in fact, Kirk may even be referring to Earth and its colonies only, not the rest of the United Federation). Member
states continued to maintain their own colonial holdings as late as 2352, when Turkana IV was an Earth colony (“Legacy”).
Additionally, Star Trek: Insurrection introduced the concept of “Federation protectorates,” which indicates that there is a kind of
state affiliated with the United Federation without being full members (or colonies of full members). As regards its population, it was
projected that the United Federation would suffer some 900 billion casualties before surrendering in the Dominion War in “Statistical
Probabilities”; the basis of this projection is unclear.

As implied by the name, the United Federation’s member states do not surrender their own governmental functions or territorial
integrity, including the possession of colonies (“Legacy”). Surprisingly, however, these member states do not behave like members of
a federal republic but rather as quasi-sovereign entities within a confederate structure. United Earth, for example, one of the founding
members of the United Federation in 2161, maintained its own diplomatic corps and accredited Admiral (Retired) Jonathan Archer as
its ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary to the Andorian Empire — itself a founding member — from 2169 to 2175, before
designating him as its representative in the Federation Council from 2175 to 2183 (“In a Mirror, Darkly”). United Earth also
continued to operate its United Earth Space Probe Agency (UESPA) , which worked closely with the United Federation’s Starfleet,
even serving as one of the operating authorities of USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) during her five-year mission of 2265 - 2270
(“Tomorrow Is Yesterday”); UESPA was credited as one of the main contributors to the construction of USS Enterprise (NCC-1701-
B) as late as 2293 (Star Trek: Generations). Nor is United Earth unique; the Andorian Empire maintained its military/naval service,
the Imperial Guard, as late as 2164(“In a Mirror, Darkly”), and the Vulcan High Command had its own defensive vessels as late as
2367 (“Unification”) and an intelligence service, the V’Shar, under its Minister of Security, Satok, as late as 2370 (“Gambit”). Like
United Earth’s Jonathan Archer, the Vulcan High Command’s Federation Councilman in 2268, Sarek, had ambassadorial rank
(“Journey to Babel”), and like the United Earth/Andorian Empire diplomatic relationship, maintained an embassy on Earth in 2285
(Star Trek III: The Search for Spock), and a United Federation citizen was even able to claim sanctuary from the United Federation
Government there — despite ius legationis being a characteristic of sovereign nations, not members of a federal republic. In fact, in
2293 the Vulcanian Ambassador met with the President alongside the Romulan and Klingon Ambassadors, despite being a
representative of one of the United Federation’s founding members (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country even reveals that
Captain Spock opened negotiations with Gorkon, Chancellor of the High Council of the Klingon Empire, at the Vulcanian
Ambassador’s request, without direction from the President or the Federation Council, revealing a United Federation member to be
conducting foreign policy as an actor in interstellar relations independent of the United Federation Government, using the services of
a Starfleet commissioned officer, no less).

But even he admits that Federation members have a fair amount of sovereignty in their affairs. Something that would not be the case in a weak totalitarian dictatorship.
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

Good points, Mike.