Borg Cube vs 1 gigaton nuke

[Roondar]

Well, material strength in the ST universe is obviously a great deal above what we have today. The NX-Enterprise took a quarter-kiloton contact explosive to it's hull (when all defenses where offline - and that ship has no Structural Integrity Grid) and the resulting hole was quite, quite anemic compared to what we'd expect from 250.000 KG of TNT vs real world materials. And that was against a 300 years older ship in a line that is far less advanced than what the Borg have.

I though the hatch used to protect from that 0.25 KT mine was polarized, which if I'm correct, the debut in the shielding department?

Yes, the hatch was. But I'm refering to the intial explosion - the Enterprise hits (not approaches closely but actually hits - they're contact explosives after all) one of the mines very early in the episode. At that stage they didn't have their hull polarized or any of their defenses turned on. They where not at warp either so any effect of the deflector was mitigated.

They get a nice, sizable chunk, of the ship blown out. But the size of the hole is far too small for a quarter-kiloton contact explosive on something that consists mainly of air. This shows us that the NX has a relatively strong hull, all things considered.

If you want I can see about finding a picture?

Then again, I suppose stuff like the Borg equivalent of Structural Integrity fields could provide a lot of the answer.
(Don't forget: the movie suggests -but does not outright state-, per Data's damage report on the cube, that the Borg have lost shields prior to the part of the battle we see)

But the torps were hitting inside the ship at that point. Perhaps the Borg focused internal force fields (shields and SIF) onto that section, but it was not enough.

Seems like a good point, but I was actually refering to earlier in the battle when the Photons and Phasers of the UFP fleet hit the -presumably unshielded, per dialog- cube with very little effect.

As to the walls being beaten by Organic limbs, there's two reasons this is problematic as a comparisom.
The first is that we have no idea if the wall is made from the same stuff as the outer hull.

By the damage caused by the fire onto that very spot, compared to what the torps and beams did to any other outer section of the hull, I'd be tempted to think that the inside is not as good.

Which is good, because that reinforces my point - you can't use the physical prowes of Species 8472 against indoor walls to guage outer hull strengths. For all we know the inner walls are mostly protecting against energy weapons.
That would be quite logical considering boarding parties tend to use them quite a lot. They could also be more for structural strength or making compartiments/rooms instead of needing to be rugged to resist combat. I mean with SIF, shields and a tough other hull you don't need to build every wall inside your ship to be really strong.

The second being that we have no idea wether Species 8472, being from 'fluidic space' - a bizzaro dimension outside of realspace, are really that strong. Or that they just have special 'sci-fi magic' built in that makes them appear to be a whole lot stronger than they really are (i.e. they don't actually brute force the wall but use an aspect of their weird extra-dimensional state to breach it).

Wow, that's a rather huge stretch.
Sorry, don't buy it at all.

Yeah, re-reading it you're right. <shrug> it's not neccesary to be able to explain the situation anyway so I'll forget about posting it if you will :P

(on a sidenote, where does this happen exactly - my memory of species 8472 has one of them stuck over on Voyager without being nearly so strong)

When Kim and co go on a Cube and Kim is hit by one of these aliens, beamed back into Voy and has that 8472 snort growing through his nose or something.

I'll be sure to rewatch that scene as I don't recall it at all.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Transporters.....She just told them to kill ALL the Cardassians

Why should they direct their spacebourne resources to that task when the ground troops are capable of it on their own? A quote here from WYLB:

WEYOUN: [on monitor]: We know these disgraceful acts of sabotage were carried out by a mere handful of extremists. But these radicals must come to realise that their disobedience will not be tolerated. That you, the Cardassian people, will suffer the consequences of their cowardly actions. Which is why I must inform you a few moments ago, Dominion troops reduced Lakarian City to ashes. There were no survivors. Two million men, women and children gone in a matter of moments. For each act of sabotage committed against the Dominion, another Cardassian city will be destroyed. I implore you not to let that happen. Let us return to the spirit of friendship and cooperation between our peoples, so that together, we can defeat our common enemies, the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans and all the others that stand against us. Thank you.

This indicates that troops possess the means to utterly destroy a city of 2 million in "moments". No need to waste starship assets which are tied up at this point trying to prevent the Allied fleet from reaching Cardassia. Later on:

WEYOUN: We have a security breach.

FOUNDER: The guards will deal with it. Is there a problem?

WEYOUN: The guards. There're only a handful left in the building. I sent the rest to help eradicate the Cardassians.
(Weapons fire outside.)

WEYOUN: You two, get out there and see that no one gets through that door. You, stay here. In case they fail.


On the Founder leaving, she refuses to leave, and moments later the Kira, Garak and the resistance break into the control room:

WEYOUN: Founder, perhaps we should consider finding a safer location.
FOUNDER: And just where would that be?

(The door is blown open. One Jem'Hadar is killed by a Cardassian before the other him. Kira shoots the last Jem'Hadar in the room.)

WEYOUN: Well, Colonel Kira. What a pleasant surprise.

KIRA: The pleasure's all mine.

EKOOR: The Federation fleet has surrounded the planet.

KIRA: I want you to contact the Jem'Hadar and the Breen, and you order their ships to stand down.

GARAK: And order their troops on Cardassia to do the same.

FOUNDER: I will do no such thing.

WEYOUN: Tell me, where's my old friend Damar?

GARAK: Damar's dead.

WEYOUN: What a pity.

GARAK:He died trying to free Cardassia.

WEYOUN: What's left of it.

(Garak shoots Weyoun.)
FOUNDER: I wish you hadn't done that. That was Weyoun's last clone.

GARAK: I was hoping you'd say that.

KIRA: This war's over. You lost.

FOUNDER: Have I? I think you'll find that neither the Jem'Hadar or the Breen will agree with that assessment. They will fight to the last man.

KIRA: And what will that accomplish?

FOUNDER: Isn't it obvious? You may win this war, Commander, but I promise you, when it is over, you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your victory will taste as bitter as defeat.

Not long after this, Odo beams down and links with the Founder, ending the conflict, and the Dominion fleet is tied up facing off with the Allied fleet, the Founder was unable to give them any orders until after Odo links with her.
-Mike

That's actually a very good argument. Doesn't mean I'll stop pointing out the nonsense of the implied power of a single phaser bank, but at least the Cardassian case is closed as far as I'm concerned.





@ Roondar

I didn't mean to suggest that the outer hull was as weak/strong as the inner structure; people, and even I, point to the low degree of destruction once torps, even advanced ones, start striking inside the ship. Inside the ship, that's where are the walls that an alien could smash. That's why I say the Borg used force fields of different kind to minimize destruction, but that failed.
Mix that with the tough outer hull, and it explains the lack of more massive pyrotechnics. No more, no less, and I think then everybody's happy.

[Praeothmin]

I didn't mean to suggest that the outer hull was as weak/strong as the inner structure; people, and even I, point to the low degree of destruction once torps, even advanced ones, start striking inside the ship. Inside the ship, that's where are the walls that an alien could smash. That's why I say the Borg used force fields of different kind to minimize destruction, but that failed.
Mix that with the tough outer hull, and it explains the lack of more massive pyrotechnics. No more, no less, and I think then everybody's happy.

Which, IMO, matches very well with what we see in RL.
Buildings are tough enough to support their own weight, yet most walls inside are made of plaster, which a human can bash through with his bare fists.
There are support beams and the like, but the majority of the walls have nowhere near the resilience of the "outer shells".
I like the idea of internal force fileds, just like we see in ST, when there's a hull breach, they have forcefields in place to contain them...

[Mr. Oragahn]

I didn't mean to suggest that the outer hull was as weak/strong as the inner structure; people, and even I, point to the low degree of destruction once torps, even advanced ones, start striking inside the ship. Inside the ship, that's where are the walls that an alien could smash. That's why I say the Borg used force fields of different kind to minimize destruction, but that failed.
Mix that with the tough outer hull, and it explains the lack of more massive pyrotechnics. No more, no less, and I think then everybody's happy.

Which, IMO, matches very well with what we see in RL.
Buildings are tough enough to support their own weight, yet most walls inside are made of plaster, which a human can bash through with his bare fists.
There are support beams and the like, but the majority of the walls have nowhere near the resilience of the "outer shells".
I like the idea of internal force fileds, just like we see in ST, when there's a hull breach, they have forcefields in place to contain them...

But on most buildings the outer shell is peanuts to the strength of the backbone pillars that compose the core of the superstructure.
A building's main method of surviving a hit, is not by having its outer walls being uber tough. That, largely because the added mass would collapse all.
Warships are a bit different, although their endoskeleton will probably remain tougher than whatever hull plating they come with. It would, indeed, be stupid to snap because of your own weight before any enemy has fired at you. :p

[Mike DiCenso]

Oh yes, one other thing about the situation in "What You Leave Behind", the Cardassian resistance had cut off power and communications with the Dominion fleet long before the order is given to wipe out all Cardassians:

[Cardassian cellar]

GARAK: But the vote was unanimous. The work disruptions begin tomorrow.

DAMAR: Power, communication and transportation facilities throughout Cardassia will be sabotaged.

GARAK: The Dominion fleet will be cut off from all ground support.
KIRA: That way, they'll have to face the invasion force on their own.

DAMAR: And once the Dominion is crushed
(Mila comes down the stairs with a tray.)

MILA: All Cardassia will be free again. Oh, when you were a small boy, I was worried about you. Always getting in trouble. So secretive, so full of deceit. Who would have thought those distasteful characteristics would be turned to virtues. More tea?

GARAK: You're too kind.


Later this is carried out:

Dominion briefing room]

(Night is falling.)
FOUNDER: I see your point. But for two millennia the Jem'Hadar have been the Dominion's first line of defence. It would damage their morale to have to take a back seat to the Breen.

GOR: (electronic noise)

FOUNDER: Very well. In the spirit of our new alliance, I will inform the Jem'Hadar that the Breen forces will stand alongside them.

GOR: (electronic noise)

FOUNDER: I'm glad that pleases you.

WEYOUN: I think we have a problem.

GOR: (electronic noise)

WEYOUN: Our lines are spread too thin, especially here, at the centre. We need to despatch reinforcements immediately.

FOUNDER: Do you agree?

GOR: (electronic noise)

FOUNDER: Notify the Jem'Hadar. Order them to reinforce the centre of their lines.
(And the power goes out.)

FOUNDER: Now what?

GOR: (electronic noise)

COMPUTER: Emergency power engaged.
(Lights up and Broca enters.)

BROCA: Founder, I'm relieved to see that you're all right.

WEYOUN: Long range communications are down. I can't contact the Jem'Hadar.

GOR: (electronic noise)

WEYOUN: Of course I'll keep trying.

FOUNDER: What caused the power failure?

BROCA: I'm afraid it was sabotage.
WEYOUN: Almost every Dominion installation on Cardassia Prime has suffered damage.

FOUNDER: Damar.

BROCA: We captured some of the terrorists, but they're not soldiers. They're
ordinary citizens.

(She grabs Broca by the throat.)

FOUNDER: Are you telling me the Cardassian people are rising up against us?

BROCA: I'm sure it's only a small number of malcontents.

FOUNDER: But we have no way of knowing that, do we?

WEYOUN: Founder, may I make a suggestion?

FOUNDER: Yes, I am sure that Broca would be very happy to hear what you have to say.

WEYOUN: If the Cardassian people are responsible for these acts of terrorism, if Damar and his fanatics have turned them against us, then it's the people who should be punished.

FOUNDER: Now what do you say to that?

BROCA: Severely punished.

(She lets him go.)

So beaming out was not an option, much less calling in for an orbital bombardment. When communications are restored, the Dominion fleet was falling back in disarray because of the Cardassian fleet elements turning against it and joining up with the Allied forces. When they reached the planet, the Allied fleet was right behind them and surrounded the planet as per the previously quoted dialog, and the Founder refused to leave the main headquarters on Cardassia.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

That said I wonder how literal the "Lakarian City to ashes" bit is. One would say infantry men deployed WMDs.
The Capital city didn't suffer as much though.

[Mike DiCenso]

The captial city wasn't destroyed that same way since the Founder was still there, and refusing to leave the main headquarters. So a more systematic approach was required. While Weyon's statement might be considered hyperbole when taken by itself, it is something that we have to consider seriously since not only does he say that this was done in "moments" (implying WMD), but that all 2 million people in the city were killed. More interestingly enough, no one contradicted this result, and the idea that such powerful weapons might exist for the Dominion equivalent of a mechanized infantry is bourne out by "The Ship" where they had access to ultritium explosive shells that could have been used to instantly destroy the captured attack ship, but for the wounded Founder on board it, who would have been killed. Instead the artillery bombardment used indirect fire to shake it up in an effort to psych out the Federation boarding party.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

I didn't mean to suggest that the outer hull was as weak/strong as the inner structure; people, and even I, point to the low degree of destruction once torps, even advanced ones, start striking inside the ship. Inside the ship, that's where are the walls that an alien could smash. That's why I say the Borg used force fields of different kind to minimize destruction, but that failed.
Mix that with the tough outer hull, and it explains the lack of more massive pyrotechnics. No more, no less, and I think then everybody's happy.

Which, IMO, matches very well with what we see in RL.
Buildings are tough enough to support their own weight, yet most walls inside are made of plaster, which a human can bash through with his bare fists.
There are support beams and the like, but the majority of the walls have nowhere near the resilience of the "outer shells".
I like the idea of internal force fileds, just like we see in ST, when there's a hull breach, they have forcefields in place to contain them...

But on most buildings the outer shell is peanuts to the strength of the backbone pillars that compose the core of the superstructure.
A building's main method of surviving a hit, is not by having its outer walls being uber tough. That, largely because the added mass would collapse all.
Warships are a bit different, although their endoskeleton will probably remain tougher than whatever hull plating they come with. It would, indeed, be stupid to snap because of your own weight before any enemy has fired at you. :p

Yes, the outer walls are peanut, but they are still way tougher then any inner walls, and while buildings on Earth made with tougher outer walls would collapse under their own wieghts, ships in space, made from extremely advanced materials, using force fields to reinforce their walls would not...
But, we essentially agree (my original post was that I agreed with your assessment).

[Roondar]

The captial city wasn't destroyed that same way since the Founder was still there, and refusing to leave the main headquarters. So a more systematic approach was required. While Weyon's statement might be considered hyperbole when taken by itself, it is something that we have to consider seriously since not only does he say that this was done in "moments" (implying WMD), but that all 2 million people in the city were killed. More interestingly enough, no one contradicted this result, and the idea that such powerful weapons might exist for the Dominion equivalent of a mechanized infantry is bourne out by "The Ship" where they had access to ultritium explosive shells that could have been used to instantly destroy the captured attack ship, but for the wounded Founder on board it, who would have been killed. Instead the artillery bombardment used indirect fire to shake it up in an effort to psych out the Federation boarding party.
-Mike

This makes a lot of sense - the USA developed tactical nukes years ago, this type of weapon could be - when uprated - quite similar. Besides, assuming that city isn't built out of sci-fi-uber materials there is no reason why a smallish modern day nuke couldn't do the job. A level of destruction that is well within Dominion capabilities, surely.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I was reading my post about Ensigns of Command and JMS' calcs, and came to read the paragraph where I pointed out how some things didn't make sense with the idea that Data shot his phaser at the pipe and heated up an entire section of it.

In "Ensigns of Command," Data fires upon an aqueduct, using a hand phaser. StepsAs we can see to the right, each step is roughly 0.25-0.3m (10-12") tall. This makes the actual pipe itself, by reference to the stairs, roughly 1.17-1.4m wide, with a 23-25.6m length of it being heated cherry red (and yellow in one section) as a result. Assuming the pipeline to be of generally similar construction to the modern pipelines it resembles, this would represent 7860-16300 kilograms of steel being heated by 600-1000 degrees Celsius, or ~2.1-7.4 gigajoules. PipelineWe may increase this figure dramatically by assuming that not all of the energy of the phaser blast was absorbed by the pipe, or that the water inside the pipe absorbed much of the heat. However, dramatic increases are difficult to reconcile with other phaser blasts, which rarely cause collateral damage.
This is also difficult to reconcile with the knowledge that hand phasers cannot even melt tritanium ("Arsenal of Freedom") which makes up Starfleet's hulls ("Where Silence Has Lease.")
While being tested, a phaser rifle duplicated by Romulans output 1.05 megawatts, with a discharge crystal operating at 94.1% efficiency. This is contrasted with the maximum Federation discharge crystal efficiency of 86.5%. It would take the better part of an hour at this setting to perform the same heating work as Data's single hand phaser blast.
Phasers may also be observed to make people disappear completely, or blast through several cubic meters of rock (per "Chain of Command.") (Check reference.)

I had noticed that on the second screencap we could see a segment of the pipe glow as well, far into the distance, close to the base of the small mountain.
I realized why the glow is so uniform (all red excepted at two points where it's more orange) and what causes the orange parts to be found on opposite ends.
I figured out that it's not the metal glowing but some kind of energy wave that travels along the pipe, running away from the colony. The other explosions on the distant segments of the pipe also fit with that observation. As the glow passes some "checkpoints", it triggers explosions. That's why the explosion that's closer to the mountain is smaller, because it happened more recently.
Fortunately, there's a video on Youtube which shows what exactly happened.
Basically, Data shoots a sort of power converter or something at the base of the stairs, which are not stairs in fact but a stepped water cascade, and this triggers a chain reaction: power builds up and ends with a massive surge that travels up and down the pipe, blowing up stuff at regular points.
Basically the glow has nothing to do with metal being heated up. So the issue about consistency is solved.

[Youngla0450]

The Borg Cube can destroyed by the Death Star!

[Mike DiCenso]

This is why people are not taking you very seriously,Youngla. You make blanket statements like this without anything to back it up, and when pressed to do so, you cut and paste links to other people's work without explaining necessarily how it is relevant to your case.
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

Death Stah can destroy Borg Cubah! (Like Cartman or Timmy from South Park would say)

[Jedi Master Spock]

The Borg Cube can destroyed by the Death Star!

Death Stah can destroy Borg Cubah! (Like Cartman or Timmy from South Park would say)

When you repeat the same exact claim in response to someone saying:

This is why people are not taking you very seriously,Youngla. You make blanket statements like this without anything to back it up, and when pressed to do so, you cut and paste links to other people's work without explaining necessarily how it is relevant to your case.
-Mike

It seems to me as if you are trolling for a reaction. Accordingly:

You have been warned here, here, and here. Here I note an evident flame that may have passed my notice without my offering a warning, so your behaviour clearly has not been good in the mean time.

In accordance with the rules of this site, you have earned yourself a temporary ban. This ban is one day in length. Discussion of the ban is to be directed here.