the Federation can build more 39 starship a year.

[Picard]

"Assuming an average starship lifespan of 50 years, the 130 ship per year figure gives us a standing fleet of 6500 starships, which seems a little low given the evidence from DS9. The alternative is to either bump up the lifespan (again giving a nod to all those ancient Mirandas, Excelsiors, et cetera) or bump up the construction rate. If we bumped up the construction rate to 200 ships per year, for instance, we'd arrive at a fleet of 10,000 starships. If we bumped the lifespan up to 75 years, then we'd have fleets of 9,750 and 15,000 starships, respectively.

In short, the 8-10,000 figure for Starfleet indicated by DS9 seems very workable by the evidence of the registry scheme. If the average vessel lifespan were 75 years, then to have 8,000 to 10,000 ships would 'only' require a yearly construction rate of 110-130 ships."

Seems that Darkstar agrees with you. Anyway, relative sizes of fleets as given in DITL seem to work very well for what is seen in DS9 so I simply multiplied it and got 9750 capital ships for Starfleet, 9720 for KDF, 1553 for Cardassian Guard, 565 Warbirds for Romulan Empire (little low, but Warbird is 3-5 times volume of Galaxy class so 500-1000 Warbirds figure seems OK for Romulan Empire). 2700 Dominion ships coming through wormhole are said to be able to turn course of war totally in Dominion favor and assuming 20 000 Allied vessels which were already confronted by 30 000 Dominion ships, I don't think that figures I gave now have any room left to rise up.

[Mike DiCenso]

Those are still rather conservtive numbers for the Romulan Star Empire's fleet given that in addition to the 1.3 km D'Deridex warbird, which they semed to have an endless supply of, they also had the so-called Norexan Valdore type warbirds as well as numerous other smaller vessels, like the scout and science ships from TNG's "The Defector" and "The Last Phase". We now also know that the Romulans were able without any apparent difficultly in building the 8-10 km mining vessel Narada, indicating a fairly significant industrial base for starship construction. On top of that we have the Romulan represenative Velal in DS9's "Dogs of War" states that winnng the battle to take Cardassia would come at "a cost of thousands of ships". If we take the context of who is speaking, a Romulan who is speaking mostly for his own people's interests, then it can be surmised that he is refering more to Romulan losses more than Federationa and Klingon. Again, the Romulan fleet has probably thousands of ships, not hundreds or just over a thousand.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

What's worth noting is that while the D'deridex is 26 million cubic meters - four and a half times the volume of the Galaxy class and almost five and a half times the volume of the Valdore type, see here - it is not actually that powerful of a ship. One on one, a GCS is a fair match for a D'deridex in spite of the size difference. Three 350m BoPs at 1.3 million cubic meters each, plus one GCS, can completely demolish two Romulan D'deridexes, something that is alluded to in "The Defector:"

PICARD: If the cause is just and honourable, they are prepared to give their lives. Are you prepared to die today, Tomalak?
TOMALAK [on viewscreen]: I expected more from you than an idle threat, Picard.
PICARD: Then you shall have it. Mister Worf.
WORF: Aye, sir.
(Three mean Klingon vessels uncloak around the Enterprise and Romulans)
WORF: Klingon warships armed and ready, sir.
PICARD: What shall it be, Tomalak?
TOMALAK [on viewscreen]: You will still not survive our assault.
PICARD: You will not survive ours. Shall we die together?
TOMALAK [on viewscreen]: I look forward to our next meeting, Captain.
WORF: Romulan disruptors powering down, sir.
(The warbirds cloak and leave)

"Yesterday's Enterprise" shows us another trio of ~350m BoPs demolishing the Enterprise-D - which only manages to down one of them while trying to protect the Enterprise-C.

The DITL ship numbers are interesting, but there are some issues with them. Certainly the vast majority of Romulan ships sighted in the Dominion War were D'deridex warbirds. Small Romulan vessels are the exception, rather than the rule. I think putting the warbird fleet at 130 following the Dominion War is a bit too low.

While the D'deridex doesn't represent efficient construction, it is the ship that the Romulan Star Empire uses without exception to project force, from TNG until the new warbird design was unveiled in Nemesis.

A point of note: The stated strength of 30,000 ships under the banner of the Dominion in the Alpha Quadrant comes in the seventh season, near the end of the war. The DITL figures indicating total Dominion, Cardassian, and Breen combined ship production totalling to 30,000 should be therefore taken with a large grain of salt, as it is nearly certain that a number of Cardassian and Dominion ships were destroyed in the several preceding years of warfare.

[Mike DiCenso]

There is one bit of important context here that you left out of that; there is teh immeditate scene prior where the E-D, not finding a Romulan base in the NZ, attempts to leave, but is blocked by two warbirds that fire on her, and Picard says this:


PICARD: Not yet, Mister Worf. This is just a tap on the shoulder, or we wouldn't be here talking about it.

The implication is clear, the warbirds had the capacity to utterly disable or destroy the E-D without her even being able to retaliate in kind. This is backed up by events in the later episode "Tin Man" where a single D'Deridex strips the E-D's shields down 70% and cause internal damage in a strafing run. The implication here is that the warbird could have done more, if it had not been so intent on driving on to the Tin Man alien to achive first contact.

Further as stated in the latter part of quote you provided from "The Defector", the exchange of weapons fire from all ships might have resulted in the mutal destruction of both parties. So this is not a completely lop-sided situation here.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

There is one bit of important context here that you left out of that; there is teh immeditate scene prior where the E-D, not finding a Romulan base in the NZ, attempts to leave, but is blocked by two warbirds that fire on her, and Picard says this:


PICARD: Not yet, Mister Worf. This is just a tap on the shoulder, or we wouldn't be here talking about it.

The implication is clear, the warbirds had the capacity to utterly disable or destroy the E-D without her even being able to retaliate in kind. This is backed up by events in the later episode "Tin Man" where a single D'Deridex strips the E-D's shields down 70% and cause internal damage in a strafing run. The implication here is that the warbird could have done more, if it had not been so intent on driving on to the Tin Man alien to achive first contact.

Further as stated in the latter part of quote you provided from "The Defector", the exchange of weapons fire from all ships might have resulted in the mutal destruction of both parties. So this is not a completely lop-sided situation here.
-Mike

Actually, the exchange doesn't indicate that all the ships would be destroyed - simply the Romulan ones and the Enterprise. What we have is a set of incidents is a delicate three-way balance. I'll explain what I mean.

We know that a D'deridex can, in a single all-out attack run, knock Galaxy shields down by 70%, from "Tin Man." Picard didn't shoot back. So let's suppose for the moment that one D'deridex can destroy one Galaxy in about the space of a minute. Let's attach some numbers.

So if the Galaxy has a toughness of 60, then a warbird has a firepower of 60 per minute. In "Yesterday's Enterprise," we see the Enterprise hold out for about a minute against a trio of K'vorts, Birds of Prey about the same size as the ones in this scene. So the K'vorts have, then, a firepower of about 20 per minute.

In that minute, the Enterprise shoots down one of them. So the Galaxy has a firepower of X per minute, where X is the toughness of a K'vort.

Now, we get to "Defector." Suppose that the warbirds were going to shoot the Enterprise first, then try to fight their way away from the surrounding K'vorts, blowing them away one by one. One gets blown up halfway through the engagement. In other words, everybody is focusing fire, and the Enterprise is the number one target.

In this case, they get shot with X/2 from the Enterprise, and then an average of 40 per minute from the K'vorts, but they themselves cannot kill the K'vorts before being destroyed, averaging then 90 per minute as they are destroyed one by one.

Firepower received by D'deridexes: X/2 + 30 + 40(t-0.5) (mutual destruction) to X/2 + 60t (none of the K'vorts are destroyed)
By each D'deridex: X/4 + 20-30t + 0-5
Damage dealt by D'deridexes: 90t, which is no more than 60 + 3X and no less than 60.

So first, let's have everybody get blown up (90t = 60 + 3X)

D'deridex: Toughness 0.92X + 13.3, firepower 60 per minute
K'vort: Toughness X, firepower 20 per minute
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower X per minute.

We can set X to be whatever we like. It's a remaining unknown parameter. So let's pick a couple values. I'll illustrate X=40 and X=16.

D'deridex: Toughness 50, firepower 60
K'vort: Toughness 40, firepower 20
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower 40

D'deridex: Toughness 28, firepower 60
K'vort: Toughness 16, firepower 20
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower 16

As X gets smaller, the advantage a D'deridex has one-on-one against a Galaxy increases, but they also become more vulnerable to attack; two K'vorts ambushing a D'deridex becomes like two D'deridexes ambushing a Galaxy.

If the D'deridex has comparable toughness to a Galaxy, then the difference in power between the two craft as small. Now, let's illustrate the case where the K'vorts destroy the D'deridexes just as the Enterprise blows up (t = 2/3, i.e., forty seconds). X=40 and X=16 again:

D'deridex: Toughness 35, firepower 60
K'vort: Toughness 40, firepower 20
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower 40

D'deridex: Toughness 24, firepower 60
K'vort: Toughness 16, firepower 20
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower 16

Again, we have the same sort of shift in the balance between the Galaxy and D'deridex, but in this case, the Galaxy starts gaining an advantage before we go out of unrealistic territory for the K'vorts' toughness.

Now, what's impressive about this whole situation is that the K'vorts are basically scaled at 1 million cubic meters in these episodes. The three Klingon warships put together are about half the total displacement of the Galaxy and about 12% of a single D'deridex. When it comes to Klingon engineering, good things do come in small packages.

The D'deridex may have an edge on the Galaxy in power, but it doesn't seem all that impressive to me on the whole.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

There is one bit of important context here that you left out of that; there is teh immeditate scene prior where the E-D, not finding a Romulan base in the NZ, attempts to leave, but is blocked by two warbirds that fire on her, and Picard says this:


PICARD: Not yet, Mister Worf. This is just a tap on the shoulder, or we wouldn't be here talking about it.

The implication is clear, the warbirds had the capacity to utterly disable or destroy the E-D without her even being able to retaliate in kind. This is backed up by events in the later episode "Tin Man" where a single D'Deridex strips the E-D's shields down 70% and cause internal damage in a strafing run. The implication here is that the warbird could have done more, if it had not been so intent on driving on to the Tin Man alien to achive first contact.

Further as stated in the latter part of quote you provided from "The Defector", the exchange of weapons fire from all ships might have resulted in the mutal destruction of both parties. So this is not a completely lop-sided situation here.
-Mike

Actually, the exchange doesn't indicate that all the ships would be destroyed - simply the Romulan ones and the Enterprise. What we have is a set of incidents is a delicate three-way balance. I'll explain what I mean.

We know that a D'deridex can, in a single all-out attack run, knock Galaxy shields down by 70%, from "Tin Man." Picard didn't shoot back. So let's suppose for the moment that one D'deridex can destroy one Galaxy in about the space of a minute. Let's attach some numbers.

So if the Galaxy has a toughness of 60, then a warbird has a firepower of 60 per minute. In "Yesterday's Enterprise," we see the Enterprise hold out for about a minute against a trio of K'vorts, Birds of Prey about the same size as the ones in this scene. So the K'vorts have, then, a firepower of about 20 per minute.

In that minute, the Enterprise shoots down one of them. So the Galaxy has a firepower of X per minute, where X is the toughness of a K'vort.

Now, we get to "Defector." Suppose that the warbirds were going to shoot the Enterprise first, then try to fight their way away from the surrounding K'vorts, blowing them away one by one. One gets blown up halfway through the engagement. In other words, everybody is focusing fire, and the Enterprise is the number one target.

In this case, they get shot with X/2 from the Enterprise, and then an average of 40 per minute from the K'vorts, but they themselves cannot kill the K'vorts before being destroyed, averaging then 90 per minute as they are destroyed one by one.

Firepower received by D'deridexes: X/2 + 30 + 40(t-0.5) (mutual destruction) to X/2 + 60t (none of the K'vorts are destroyed)
By each D'deridex: X/4 + 20-30t + 0-5
Damage dealt by D'deridexes: 90t, which is no more than 60 + 3X and no less than 60.

So first, let's have everybody get blown up (90t = 60 + 3X)

D'deridex: Toughness 0.92X + 13.3, firepower 60 per minute
K'vort: Toughness X, firepower 20 per minute
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower X per minute.

We can set X to be whatever we like. It's a remaining unknown parameter. So let's pick a couple values. I'll illustrate X=40 and X=16.

D'deridex: Toughness 50, firepower 60
K'vort: Toughness 40, firepower 20
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower 40

D'deridex: Toughness 28, firepower 60
K'vort: Toughness 16, firepower 20
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower 16

As X gets smaller, the advantage a D'deridex has one-on-one against a Galaxy increases, but they also become more vulnerable to attack; two K'vorts ambushing a D'deridex becomes like two D'deridexes ambushing a Galaxy.

If the D'deridex has comparable toughness to a Galaxy, then the difference in power between the two craft as small. Now, let's illustrate the case where the K'vorts destroy the D'deridexes just as the Enterprise blows up (t = 2/3, i.e., forty seconds). X=40 and X=16 again:

D'deridex: Toughness 35, firepower 60
K'vort: Toughness 40, firepower 20
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower 40

D'deridex: Toughness 24, firepower 60
K'vort: Toughness 16, firepower 20
Galaxy: Toughness 60, firepower 16

Again, we have the same sort of shift in the balance between the Galaxy and D'deridex, but in this case, the Galaxy starts gaining an advantage before we go out of unrealistic territory for the K'vorts' toughness.

Now, what's impressive about this whole situation is that the K'vorts are basically scaled at 1 million cubic meters in these episodes. The three Klingon warships put together are about half the total displacement of the Galaxy and about 12% of a single D'deridex. When it comes to Klingon engineering, good things do come in small packages.

The D'deridex may have an edge on the Galaxy in power, but it doesn't seem all that impressive to me on the whole.

Do not those figures and stats assume full effectivness for all ships through the entire battle?.

The first volley is going to either totally remove or at the very least significantly reduce the firepower coming from the primary target (in this case the E-D getting hit by at least one full power shot from each D'deridex ) now that is our ZERO point for the start of the combat for the good guys.

So the Klingon/E-D fleet starts firing with the Klingons at full power but the E-D either out of the fight or firing at a reduced level.


Now assuming a equal ROF for all ships the klingons would have had a chance to get off one volley against 1 D'deridex each or 2 hits on a single D'deridex and the E-D none or a single very weak shot. Now leaving the E-D out of the fight (at least offensivly) we have 2 D'deridex that one of is at full power/shields ect and the other likely to be in mid or low shields.

By at the very latest the pair of D'deridex forth or fifth volley is going to cripple or destroy a Klingon ship, while the primary D'deridex would have recieved at most a weak shot from the E-D and 2-3 hits each from the klingon ship. So the primary D'deridex could be hurting and dishing out weak shots but likely not yet destroyed.

So we are left with a rather battered D'deridex, one at full power and a single klingon ship.

Given a good commander for the D'deridex i would say that taking advantage of the first shot leaves them in this scenario with the E-D dead both Klingon ships dead and one of the D'deridex likely dead (due to klingons bloody mindedness) or at the very least badly damaged or one D'deridex destroyed and the other slightly damaged.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Do not those figures and stats assume full effectivness for all ships through the entire battle?.

Full effectiveness until such time as they are destroyed. In the case of the E-D, that's assumed to be thirty seconds. They're rough figures in that way, but adding much more detail wouldn't change the conclusions.

The first volley is going to either totally remove or at the very least significantly reduce the firepower coming from the primary target (in this case the E-D getting hit by at least one full power shot from each D'deridex ) now that is our ZERO point for the start of the combat for the good guys.

So the Klingon/E-D fleet starts firing with the Klingons at full power but the E-D either out of the fight or firing at a reduced level.

Except the Romulans have spent their load on the E-D, and the E-D has returned a full-strength salvo of its own. The Romulans now have to recharge their weapons and then handle the Klingons.

If we assume that the E-D wasn't able to shoot at all, that means the K'vorts have to be even stronger relative to the D'deridexes, because the reveal of that scene is that Picard wasn't bluffing when he said the Romulans would be destroyed. That's the problem with your conclusion:

So we are left with a rather battered D'deridex, one at full power and a single klingon ship.

Canonically, we know that the three Klingon ships arriving on the scene guaranteed that the D'deridexes would not survive destroying the Enterprise.

As I said, it's a three-way balance. If we assume that D'deridexes are much stronger than Galaxies, the K'vorts have to make up the difference in order for "The Defector" to make sense.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Full effectiveness until such time as they are destroyed.

In that case you have to be way off, if a single D'deridex can take the E-D's shields down to 30% and cause internal dmg then the second is going to do significant damage to the ships systems if not totally destroy the ship.

In the case of the E-D, that's assumed to be thirty seconds. They're rough figures in that way, but adding much more detail wouldn't change the conclusions.

I do not think you can assume the E-D is going to be in any shape to do anything after a volley from each D'deridex.

Except the Romulans have spent their load on the E-D, and the E-D has returned a full-strength salvo of its own.

No no,the E-D just took 2 full salvos from the D'deridex when one can reduce its shields to 30% and do internal dmg. The E-D is hurting bad and would have low weapon power output at very best, in fact would likely be dead after that.

If we assume that the E-D wasn't able to shoot at all, that means the K'vorts have to be even stronger relative to the D'deridexes, because the reveal of that scene is that Picard wasn't bluffing when he said the Romulans would be destroyed.

Actually he was talking directly to Tomalak so considering the situation id say he was refering to Tomalaks ship in particular more than both AND it was at a point AFTER the initial attack so all the ships would start firing at the same time.

However if the D'deridexes had opened the engagment by both hitting the E-D with a max salvo the E-D would have been toast before firing a shot.

Leaving 2 undamaged D'deridexes vs 3 uncloaking klingon BOP's (instead of 2 undamaged D'deridexes vs 3 uncloaking klingon BOP's AND the E-D), a situation that could perhaps favor the Klingons depending on how powerful their ships were compared to the D'deridexes.

We do see a Vor'Cha that was caught off gaurd tank 2 BOPs for quite some time in the episode Redemption pt1 so im not sure how significant their weapons are compared to a heavy cruiser.

Canonically, we know that the three Klingon ships arriving on the scene guaranteed that the D'deridexes would not survive destroying the Enterprise.

We know that at the point that ALL ships were uncloaked and the weapons officers were hovering their fingers over the fire buttons this would likely be the case or at the very least Tomalaks D'deridex would be screwed, however if Tomalak had not just "tapped the E-D on the shoulder" and then communicated to mouth off and waggle his bits at picard the E-Ds firepower would not have been available as it would have been dead.

In fact the Klingons did not even uncloak until picard asked them to do so, a thing he could not have done if Tomalak had fired full weapons and blown up the E-D (maybe they read the script or just did not like picard), either way it would have been 3 BOP's vs 2 D'deridexes if Tomalak had not gloated.


PS: Andreas Katsulas was awsome in B5 and i was gutted when i learned he had died.

[Jedi Master Spock]

In that case you have to be way off, if a single D'deridex can take the E-D's shields down to 30% and cause internal dmg then the second is going to do significant damage to the ships systems if not totally destroy the ship.

As we saw in Generations, the E-D is a pretty tough bird even without shields.

I do not think you can assume the E-D is going to be in any shape to do anything after a volley from each D'deridex.

The E-D is sitting there with weapons ready, shields fully charged, and fingers on the firing buttons. I'm pretty sure they can get at least one full-strength attack out while the Romulans are shooting.

No no,the E-D just took 2 full salvos from the D'deridex when one can reduce its shields to 30% and do internal dmg. The E-D is hurting bad and would have low weapon power output at very best, in fact would likely be dead after that.

While the D'deridexes are doing that, do you think that everybody else is going to be twiddling their thumbs? No. The Enterprise will almost surely have return fire ready, and the K'vorts will be opening up with their fully charged, maximum strength attacks.

Actually he was talking directly to Tomalak so considering the situation id say he was refering to Tomalaks ship in particular more than both AND it was at a point AFTER the initial attack so all the ships would start firing at the same time.

The Klingons stationed one Bird of Prey behind each Warbird to attack them, and then a third by the Enterprise to keep them from just flying straight by the E-D. There's no indication the Klingons know which ship is Tomalak's - or care. They're ready to blow up some Romulans.

However if the D'deridexes had opened the engagment by both hitting the E-D with a max salvo the E-D would have been toast before firing a shot.

I doubt it. The E-D was ready to fire at a moment's notice. Firing sequences are not instant, nor is bursting through the shields instant.

Leaving 2 undamaged D'deridexes vs 3 uncloaking klingon BOP's (instead of 2 undamaged D'deridexes vs 3 uncloaking klingon BOP's AND the E-D), a situation that could perhaps favor the Klingons depending on how powerful their ships were compared to the D'deridexes.

And while the D'deridexes are shooting at the E-D, the BoPs will be shooting at them.

We do see a Vor'Cha that was caught off gaurd tank 2 BOPs for quite some time in the episode Redemption pt1 so im not sure how significant their weapons are compared to a heavy cruiser.

I'm sure the Vor'cha class is tougher than the 320m BoPs - but it's those battlecruiser-sized BoPs that we're dealing with here, and we don't have a similar battle between Vor'cha and D'deridex AFAIK.

We know that at the point that ALL ships were uncloaked and the weapons officers were hovering their fingers over the fire buttons this would likely be the case or at the very least Tomalaks D'deridex would be screwed, however if Tomalak had not just "tapped the E-D on the shoulder" and then communicated to mouth off and waggle his bits at picard the E-Ds firepower would not have been available as it would have been dead.

Perhaps so. But instead he stopped to talk, and so the E-D's firepower is available in the case that they decide to shoot at each other - and the Romulans die.

As I said, it's a three-way balance. If the D'deridexes are capable of flattening everything with superior firepower, then it means that Tomalak's ship has to be destroyed in the Klingons' first salvo.

We're pretty sure that the Galaxy class is tougher than the K'vorts individually - a 230m BoP is no match for the E-D in "A Matter of Honor," and the E-D manages to destroy one of three attacking 320m BoPs before being destroyed in "Yesterday's Enterprise."

Say that the Klingons are also doomed, are only destroying one D'deridex, the E-D doesn't get to fire, and, mysteriously, the Klingons hold their fire until the D'deridexes have time to recharge their weapons and turn around.. That's the case you're trying to describe - it looks something like this:

D'deridex: Toughness X, Firepower 60
K'vort: Toughness X, Firepower 20
Galaxy: Toughness 60, Firepower X

We could even say that the firepower gap is larger - we know that the D'deridexes have more firepower than a K'vort because it takes almost a minute for two ("Rascals") or three ("Yesterday's Enterprise") K'vorts to take down the E-D's shields, while a D'deridex manages to put them down by 70% in about the space of ten seconds (not actually instantly, they fire a number of shots) in "Tin Man." (Yes, the E-D could have returned fire in "Tin Man," but did not, for whatever reason.)

Yet that limited firepower is sufficient to blow up D'deridexes. If we assign proportionately more firepower to the D'deridexes, then their durability has to go down in order for the K'vorts to be able to kill them before being destroyed.

As I said, there's not even any indication that the Klingon ships are going to be destroyed - and in order for Tomalak's death to be certain, both warbirds will have to be destroyed. We've seen many times that ships are generally not destroyed in a simple blinding flash of light - they're too big and too tough, full of internal force fields and thick tritanium plating.

I'm just not impressed by the D'deridex as a warship. Sure, it's big, but it's not actually that much better in a fight than warships that are smaller and less modern than the Valdore type, which is why I said in the first place that we shouldn't assume that the D'deridex class is a more powerful ship than the Valdore type. I'm also not seeing how it should be considered that superior to a Galaxy class - Tomalak needed that second warbird on hand to be sure he'd be able to kill the Enterprise.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Chances that the Romulan cruisers were taking their time in "The Defector", if only to avoid an accident?

[2046]

As long as this exquisite conversation hinges on the many sizes of KBoPs, it seems that to be consistent we must also address the disparity in Warbird sizes and scalings.

For instance, if we want to have 350m long Birds of Prey in the final sequence, the Warbirds themselves have to be small, in the 950 meter range at best. The flyby and push-away in "Tin Man" is suggestive of a Warbird of the same size. Certain DS9 scenes suggest Warbirds hardly larger than a Galaxy Class, implying that we might not need 350m KBoPs after all . . . 230m ones might suffice for most needs. (Wouldn't that be nice!) But at that point, you're talking about Warbirds a mere 624 meters in length!

That's rather different than the 1350 meter monstrosity seen in "The Neutral Zone". At 950 meters, a Warbird's volume is only half again larger than the Galaxy Class. At 624 meters, it is less than half!

Suffice it to say that the B-type and D'Deridex may not be one and the same.

[Jedi Master Spock]

As long as this exquisite conversation hinges on the many sizes of KBoPs, it seems that to be consistent we must also address the disparity in Warbird sizes and scalings.

For instance, if we want to have 350m long Birds of Prey in the final sequence, the Warbirds themselves have to be small, in the 950 meter range at best. The flyby and push-away in "Tin Man" is suggestive of a Warbird of the same size. Certain DS9 scenes suggest Warbirds hardly larger than a Galaxy Class, implying that we might not need 350m KBoPs after all . . . 230m ones might suffice for most needs. (Wouldn't that be nice!) But at that point, you're talking about Warbirds a mere 624 meters in length!

That's rather different than the 1350 meter monstrosity seen in "The Neutral Zone". At 950 meters, a Warbird's volume is only half again larger than the Galaxy Class. At 624 meters, it is less than half!

Suffice it to say that the B-type and D'Deridex may not be one and the same.

I direct you to this blog post, which steps through a reconstruction of the scene in "The Defector."

This reconstruction used a 1200m long D'deridex and a 350m Bird of Prey, and looks pretty convincing to me.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

The E-D is sitting there with weapons ready, shields fully charged, and fingers on the firing buttons. I'm pretty sure they can get at least one full-strength attack out while the Romulans are shooting.

But the E-D did not instantly fire back, in fact Worf had to ASK picard if he wanted him to return fire after the dmg report about power transfers ect being damaged.

While the D'deridexes are doing that, do you think that everybody else is going to be twiddling their thumbs? No. The Enterprise will almost surely have return fire ready, and the K'vorts will be opening up with their fully charged, maximum strength attacks.

But they did not do that even though the E-D was under attack.

Picard did NOT instantly order to return fire after the very first shot even though he could not have known at that instant that the D'deridexes were firing at low power. In fact the D'deridexes get 8-10 shots off and all he does is get a dagage report.

The Klingons could NOT have known that the very first shots were initially weak but they did not uncloak and start firing either.

The instant the D'deridexes started firing the order to fire back should have been given and the klingons should have uncloaked and started firing but they did not.

Not instantly reacting to being fired on was either a massive tactical error for the Klingons and the E-D.

OR picard has balls as big as kirks and suspected the romulans would gloat before finishing him off, thus giving him time to uncloak the klingons in a non "balls to the wall fire all weapons situation" and thus forcing a stalemate.

The Klingons stationed one Bird of Prey behind each Warbird to attack them, and then a third by the Enterprise to keep them from just flying straight by the E-D. There's no indication the Klingons know which ship is Tomalak's - or care. They're ready to blow up some Romulans.

No way, we know from many episodes that trek ships can ID what ship they are communicating with or is communicating and that tactical data would have been communicated to each ship.

I doubt it. The E-D was ready to fire at a moment's notice. Firing sequences are not instant, nor is bursting through the shields instant.

They took 8-10 shots and Worf had to ASK picard if he wanted to open fire, if those shots had been at full power they would have been dead...in fact picard remarks on the fact after Worfs request to open fire.

And while the D'deridexes are shooting at the E-D, the BoPs will be shooting at them.

But they did not even bother to uncloak.

I'm sure the Vor'cha class is tougher than the 320m BoPs - but it's those battlecruiser-sized BoPs that we're dealing with here, and we don't have a similar battle between Vor'cha and D'deridex AFAIK.

They are the same BOP's in redemption, yesterdays and Defector.

We're pretty sure that the Galaxy class is tougher than the K'vorts individually - a 230m BoP is no match for the E-D in "A Matter of Honor," and the E-D manages to destroy one of three attacking 320m BoPs before being destroyed in "Yesterday's Enterprise."

In yesterdays enterprise the E-D holds off 3 of those BC/BOPs for quite some time and even kills one while being distracted by protecting the E-C.

So why would 2 D'deridex without needing to protect a ship find fighting 3 very difficult?.

Yet that limited firepower is sufficient to blow up D'deridexes. If we assign proportionately more firepower to the D'deridexes, then their durability has to go down in order for the K'vorts to be able to kill them before being destroyed.

As I said, there's not even any indication that the Klingon ships are going to be destroyed - and in order for Tomalak's death to be certain, both warbirds will have to be destroyed.

That is not right, we know from many episodes that a ship communicating is easily identified and Tomalak had no reason to scramble his comms or disguise what ship it was coming from as he was unaware of the Klingons when he opened communications.


We've seen many times that ships are generally not destroyed in a simple blinding flash of light - they're too big and too tough, full of internal force fields and thick tritanium plating.

I'm just not impressed by the D'deridex as a warship. Sure, it's big, but it's not actually that much better in a fight than warships that are smaller and less modern than the Valdore type, which is why I said in the first place that we shouldn't assume that the D'deridex class is a more powerful ship than the Valdore type.

I suppose it depends on how you define power and if you allow for the D'deridex hulls to be refitted (it happens a lot in trek so you have to really).

Faster and more manouverable?, not likely.

Tougher?...id say yes.

More firepower...id say yes or at least equal.

More room for troops...obviously yes.

I'm also not seeing how it should be considered that superior to a Galaxy class - Tomalak needed that second warbird on hand to be sure he'd be able to kill the Enterprise.

Im not sure that he had 2 ships so he could win, it was more likely so he could win overwhelmingly.

The fight should have gone like this (i am assuming a equal ROF for all ships):

1. Both D'deridex uncloak and fire a full volley each at the E-D, destroying it or at least rendering it inert.

2. Klingons uncloak and focus fire on one of the D'deridex doing reasonable amount of damage.

3. The D'deridex return fire on one of the BOPS killing it.

4. The remaioning 2 BOPs kill or fully disable the weakened D'deridex.

5. The second D'deridex kills a BOP.

6. So its one BOP vs a D'deridex both unharmed and the BOP gets to fire first.

7. The remaining D'deridex still wins with no or low dmg.

But instead because of Tomalaks need to gloat:

1. ALL the klingon ships and the E-D are uncloaked and likely targeting a single D'deridex (the one Tomalak is communicating from most likely) but the E-D is lightly hit.

2. So EVERYBODY fires, the E-D gets melted by the D'deridex but this time returns fire instantly the fight starts so does get a good hit off along with the klingon ships so -1 D'deridex and -1 E-D.

3. Leaving 3 BOP's vs 1 D'deridex.

4. The result likely being a single remaining BOP going home to explain things to a very pissed of high council and federation.

[sonofccn]

If no one minds me dropping in I couldn't help but think this piece of trivial dialoge from Face of the Enemy(TNG) was revalent to this ongoing discussion.

TORETH
... and we had been told that the
Klingon outpost was undefended.
So when their warships decloaked,
they took us completely by
surprise...

STAR TREK: "Face of the Enemy" - 11/17/92 - ACT TWO 19.

15 CONTINUED:

The DOORS OPEN and Troi ENTERS. In an instant, the two
N.D. officers tense up, completely on edge. Toreth
indicates an open seat and continues her story.

Troi bows her head slightly and sits.

TORETH
(continuing)
... The Klingons destroyed half my
squadron before we could even
return fire. But when we did...
they were no match for us. I
destroyed their flagship myself.
I received the Sotarek Citation
for my actions that day.
(beat, pointedly)
The Intelligence Officer in charge
of the mission was executed.

While of course horribly vauge, we have no idea on the number of klingon warships or thier type, they none the less destroyed multiple vessels in seconds. A feat duplicated by the remaining Romulan ships , if we take Toreth at her word, effortlessly when they did manage to return fire. Anything less really and you'd expect the Klingons to have won since they already demostrated the power to halve the Romulan fleet.

Now I could be wrong in my interpertation but it strikes me that Romulan ships are mammoth glass cannons. That is your typical war bird can beat down a galaxy class starship down to 30% in one good salvo, and out right destroy lesser vessels, but with such weak shields its less powerful, but perhapes more heavily shielded, enemies can return the favor. Hence the rough balance between a Galaxy class and the need for two warbirds to ensure a curbstomp.

Just my crazed and rambling throughts on the matter of course.

[2046]

I direct you to this blog post, which steps through a reconstruction of the scene in "The Defector."

This reconstruction used a 1200m long D'deridex and a 350m Bird of Prey, and looks pretty convincing to me.

Actually I saw that when looking at references, and even posted a comment there before posting here. It should not be convincing.

I applaud the work, however the KBoPs are too small relative to the Warbirds in that reconstruction.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Feder ... nd-off.jpg

Using the image of the scene on Memory Alpha, you can readily see that the left KBoP, part of which is obscured by the Warbird and which thus must be behind it, is approximately 200 pixels wide versus the approximately 300px width of the Warbird. Or, more simply, the KBoPs are about 2/3rds the width of the Warbirds in the image.

But dude has them at half. The issue appears here:



Click the pic for a larger version.

As a result, his reconstruction is rather badly off.

While I haven't done a SketchUp version and am not likely to have time to, the point is that his 1200m Warbird (where the hell did that come from?) and 350m BoPs would be almost touching, I'd wager, and his 700m BoPs would be in a more likely position (especially if you used the 1353m Warbird).

But for the record, I don't want 700m BoPs . . . I'd rather shrink some Warbirds.