United Federation of Planets vs Galacitic Empire

[Picard]

About fleet strengths...

Federation and Klingon empire each have at least 9 - 10 000 capital ships. Federation has around 50 000 runabouts and other semi-independant craft according to NCC numbering system. Romulan fleet is probably smaller than Starfleet, around few hundred (DITL estimate) to maximum of 5 000 (my estimate) capital ships. However, given that Romulan fleet is mainly composed of D'Deridex class ships, each being comparable to Galaxy class in firepower, 500-1000 fleet seems probable.

Imperial fleet in canon

Unknown numbers, but ISD gets stomped by even smaller Federation ships.

[Picard]

Oh, by the way...

http://startrektech.wikia.com/wiki/Star ... ology_Wiki

http://starwarstech.wikia.com/wiki/Star ... ology_Wiki

Little wiki-projects of mine. Feel free to contribute, but read canon policy. No stories etc., just technological data.

[Mike DiCenso]

You have no body of evidence. Merely individual episodes which can work just as well with lower speeds. For example if there is a one liner that they crossed 50ly in 2 hours without any further mention than this episode can work just as well with 5ly in 20 hours because it was just an offhand remark. We can rationalize it as a lapsus linguae.
On the other hand the state of affairs when it comes to Federation knowledge of the galaxy and interaction with Gama and Delta quadrant cultures is consistent and a cornerstone of the ST setting.

Then any further attempts at rational discussion with you are impossible. You have completely dismissed dozens of examples given. These are not two or three "lapsus linguae" one-liners in the whole history of Trek, they are practically legion, Kane. You have failed to explain them away, and the only thing you have offered is the same tired old nonsense of strawmen and handwaving. The stupid tirade about them not knowing about the cultures of the Delta and Gamma quadrants was rebutted by pointing out that they cannot go faster than a certain average speed through poorly charted space, only in well-charted space, so it would have taken years or decades before encountering them.

The "Year of Hell" trajectory revision may just as well be them finding a better path around obstacles in their flightpath, allowing them a higher average speed, and this jives with the numerous examples I've given throughout this thread of them travelling at great speeds in well-charted space. You need to come up with something better here, or concede the arguement.
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

I must say that Mike Dicenso, although a Star Trek fan, is a rational and clearly-thought person, unlike Mr. Wong. Dicenso always uses good and detailed evidence to back up his claims, whether Star Trek or Star Wars. He is respectful and orderly, not rude and insulting like Mr. Wong. Although I am a Star Wars fan, I respect Mr. Dicenso for his style of debate. Mr. Wong is overly rude, aggressive, and bombastic.

[Mith]

I firmly believe the Galactic Empire will be victorious. For one thing, the Galactic Empire ruled over one and a half million member worlds, and at least fifty million colonies, governorships, and protectorates, according to the canon Star Wars factbook The Essential Atlas, written by Lucasfilm. The Empire has 25,000 Star Destroyers, hundreds of millions of star fighters, and hundreds of thousands of other ships and craft.

Which...is actually low-balling it. And it hurts because the more systems you have, the more the Empire is spread out.

The United Federation of Planets ruled over one hundred and fifty member systems, and at least one thousand colonies, protectorates, and affliate states, according to Star Trek: First Contact and Star Trek: The Original Series. The Federation had at the most, 3-5,000 capital ships, hundreds of star fighters, and several dozen shuttles and other minor spacecraft.

No, let's correct that statement, shall we?

The United Federation of Planets rules over one hundred and fifty member systems, and at least one thousand colonies, protectorates, and affliate states, according to Star Trek: First Contact and Star Trek: The Original Series.

Major point; the UFP didn't collapse and in fact, goes on to become a very strong temporal power in the 31st century.

I will be writing a story about the Galactic Empire discovering the existence of the Federation, via a wormhole in the Kessel system, in the Outer Rim. In my story, the Rebellion's leadership were executed before they even assembled, and the Empire came to feared by many. Thus a full-strength Galactic Empire against a post-Dominion War, full-strength United Federation of Planets.

And there was much wanking?

*sigh*

Might as well give my analysis.

Firepower

The GE's ships don't come all that close to Trek firepower. Their weapons are at most, maybe a megaton for their heavy turbolasers (per pulse, 2 megatons per shot) for SD level ships. It's about the equal to a phaser beam from a phaser array. ST ships however, have around 50 megatons for their photon torpedoes and 130-140 megatons for their qunatums.

To compare, a GCS's torpedo outload in one volley is around 250 megatons. An ISD's is 16 megatons. The ISD's only saving grace is that it could have a higher rate of fire, if we look to the Clone Wars for ROF. This would allow the ISD to close the gap a bit, as its ROF would be much higher, about 3-4 pulses a second for about 48-64 megatons. However, that's still just a bit more effective than your average photon torpedo. The GCS would just overwhelm the ISD.

And really, it goes downhill from there. Only SDs are actually going to have a chance at fighting an ST ship on equal grounds--and only those with a lower fighting capability. Even Voyager had two forward launchers, making its output double what the ISD could toss out. And as far as firepower is concerned, the ISD is actually rated to be as powerful as an entire battle group (although the admirals managed to get it registered as a battle line for obvious reasons). As in one ISD is worth about two dozen frigates, destroyers, and small cruisers. This would suggest that most of such ships are limited to KT ranges at best (which makes sense).

FTL

FTL on both sides has its ups and downs. For Wars, its maximum FTL is higher than ST, but both suffer a crippling problem; their FTL falls shot out of well known areas. In Trek, its navigational problems that amount to a dozen different things (if you look at the TMs). This reduces ship speeds to around 1000c, making it slow as a snail. However, in well established areas, this can kick up to around 33,000c and above, depending upon the episode. However, the Empire has it worse; without mapped out hyperlanes, they're sitting ducks--shown as per the TCW Movie where the Republic had to cowtow to the Hutts to regain the ability to fight on the Outer Rim.

So what this tells us that it would take likely weeks, probably months for the Empire to establish hyperlanes. And even then, their speed is not such a huge advantage, due to the increased UFP speed.

Stability

But the greatest factor here isn't really the weapons or the FTL; it's the stability of the Empire. It's a house of cards on a windy day. Most of their fleets are bogged down supressing their own people to the point that the Mon Calamari can give the Empire the finger and the Empire can't do jack squat about it due to the fear of calling in the forces from somewhere else.

The Mons had a dozen or so ships defending their system. The UFP has around 30,000 ships at its command. It would require the Empire to excert a massive amount of strain upon its already thin fleet to engage the UFP in any meaningful way--and then we get to the problem of firepower disparity. Remember that even the ISDs are at a major firepower disadvantage when compared to your average Trek ship. That means the smaller ships are going to get swatted like flies.

But the ISD's problems reach further still; you see, their cost is more than the entire output of several system's economical output (3.88 billion). So look at it from the perspective; you seen 500 ISDs to surpress a UFP sector. The UFP is forced to fall back from the large numbers, but take 45 of your ISDs. Taking the several statement to mean say, four, that gives us 180 solar system's worth of economical output that just went flying down the tube or 174.6 billion credits.

And what if the Federation amasses a large fleet to take the system back? What if that costs you another 215 ships? That's the loss of 860 systems, possibly more. That's a total loss of over one trillion credits for a few hundred ISDs. The Empire can't replace those ships losses; it simply can't. It'd break their backs, especially after all the resources used for the Death Star and Death Star II.

The Empire could not continue a war with the UFP because it lacks the ability to establish a strong presence and any ISD that goes up against an UFP ship without at least five to one odds is going to lose and cost the Empire 3.88 billion credits. Worse still, reinforcing them with smaller ships is entirely useless since the smaller ships are so weak compared to an ISD.

All a war with the UFP would do is hurry the Empire to destruction. Even if it willingly sent thousands of ships to meet the UFP and its allies, forced them into a defensive war, and thus, it would only weaken the Empire more and break it apart.

[Youngla0450]

So Mith, you are telling me the Galactic Empire is weak and pitiful compared to the Federation? You sure are a Federation fanatic. Mr. Wong has proven that Federation ships, at most, have 64 megatons of firepower for their photon torpedoes. The power of their warp cores are only enough to power a ISD's hyper-drive core for one second! Also, the Empire ruled over 51.5 million systems total! Compared to a Federation of 1,150 systems!

[Mr. Oragahn]

So Mith, you are telling me the Galactic Empire is weak and pitiful compared to the Federation? You sure are a Federation fanatic. Mr. Wong has proven that Federation ships, at most, have 64 megatons of firepower for their photon torpedoes. The power of their warp cores are only enough to power a ISD's hyper-drive core for one second! Also, the Empire ruled over 51.5 million systems total! Compared to a Federation of 1,150 systems!

You seem to do a fine job repeating someone else's points, that after precisely complaining about the treatment you received from that very same person.

@ Mith: The UFP has "awarp speed limitations."

[Mike DiCenso]

@ Mith: The UFP has "awarp speed limitations."

If you mean the warp speed limitations imposed after "Force of Nature", those appear to have been lifted, or the subspace damage issue resolved as there is no more mention of it after TNG's "The Pegasus".
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

@ Mith: The UFP has "awarp speed limitations."

If you mean the warp speed limitations imposed after "Force of Nature", those appear to have been lifted, or the subspace damage issue resolved as there is no more mention of it after TNG's "The Pegasus".
-Mike

Or in DS9, and the entirety of Voyager...
So this limitation seems to have been lifted, either through improved Warp Drives, or because the Federation no longer cares, or even the use of Ethanol anti-matter, which is lees polluting... ;)

[Youngla0450]

Why is the Federation leading in the recent polls? What the fuck gives anybody the reason to believe the Feds will win in a all-out war? You all now the Empire squashes the Federation and it's allies like a bug.

[Mike DiCenso]

Why is the Federation leading in the recent polls?

Why not? It is an opinion poll, after all, and aren't people entitled to their opinions?
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

Why is the Federation leading in the recent polls?

Why not? It is an opinion poll, after all, and aren't people entitled to their opinions?
-Mike

True, Mr. Dicenso, but the Federation is not a all-powerful entity, not even a god.

[Mike DiCenso]

the Federation is not a all-powerful entity, not even a god.

No, it's not. But that does not mean that it cannot defeat or hold off the Galactic Empire, either.
-Mike

[Mith]

So Mith, you are telling me the Galactic Empire is weak and pitiful compared to the Federation?

How do you define weak and pitiful?

You sure are a Federation fanatic.

Yes, how dare I disagree with you. Obviously that means that I'm a nutcase.

Are you actually going to try and challenge what I said?

Mr. Wong has proven that Federation ships, at most, have 64 megatons of firepower for their photon torpedoes.

And?

The power of their warp cores are only enough to power a ISD's hyper-drive core for one second!

This is naturally of course, why they consider asteroids to be both an obstacle and a danger.

Also, the Empire ruled over 51.5 million systems total! Compared to a Federation of 1,150 systems!

*sigh*

Even taking those numbers, the Empire lasted for roughly twenty years before their house of cards collapsed. The Federation has endured for roughly two hundred years.

Why is the Federation leading in the recent polls? What the fuck gives anybody the reason to believe the Feds will win in a all-out war? You all now the Empire squashes the Federation and it's allies like a bug.

Because the limitations on fleet capabilities, weapon capabilities, FTL capabilities, and the price tag of warships means that any attempt to perform a large scale invasion of the Empire is simply going to accelerate the decline of their inheritantly unstable empire.

[Mr. Oragahn]

@ Mith: The UFP has "awarp speed limitations."

If you mean the warp speed limitations imposed after "Force of Nature", those appear to have been lifted, or the subspace damage issue resolved as there is no more mention of it after TNG's "The Pegasus".
-Mike

Or in DS9, and the entirety of Voyager...
So this limitation seems to have been lifted, either through improved Warp Drives, or because the Federation no longer cares, or even the use of Ethanol anti-matter, which is lees polluting... ;)

I don't know, it's mentioned by some female human Admiral at the beginning of "The Pegasus". Could explain some slow speeds, if they were caped for some reason.