United Federation of Planets vs Galacitic Empire

[Mr. Oragahn]

Why is the Federation leading in the recent polls?

Why not? It is an opinion poll, after all, and aren't people entitled to their opinions?
-Mike

True, Mr. Dicenso, but the Federation is not a all-powerful entity, not even a god.

It says Über F*ckin' Pwnage!

[Jedi Master Spock]

So they didn't run into the Borg or Hirogen earlier? Big deal! It takes time to explore and chart a path. The fact that the map seen in "The Chase" shows a fairly extensive coverageof the Alpha and Beta quadrants means they've done a fairly impressive job in just 200 years of charting the galaxy. And we know from VOY's "Dark Frontier" that the Federation was already aware of the Borg as early as the 2350's, and Guinan's people as refugees reached Federation space as early as the 2290's. So that kind of goes against your little objection there.

One of the larger projects I undertook in analyzing TOS was attempting to estimate the total distance covered by the Enterprise. See here.

In TOS, a lot of RL star names are used, especially in the first two seasons. The result is that we can be pretty sure that the Enterprise drove 6,000+ light years under its own power in the first season based on stated distances and stars visited. In the second season, the figure seems to be around 9,000-12,000 light years. In the third season, they stopped using RL star names very much.

I did the same project for Voyager. One of the interesting things that I discovered is that the distances in Voyager don't add up. If you assume that the 70,000 LY / 75 year journey is a straight path with constant speed, your figures will be off by a factor of 1.5-2. Voyager's path - much like the efficient path for an off-road vehicle with a broken axle
- is not anywhere near straight, and wasn't expected to involve a constant speed of slightly less than 1000c.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mr. Wong has proven that Federation ships, at most, have 64 megatons of firepower for their photon torpedoes.

Since when? Wong has never "proven" anything except to quote erroneous information from a badly outdated non-canon technical manual. Episodes such as VOY's "Rise" or TNG's "Skin of Evil", indicate torpedo yields well in excess of 64 MT. Wong also conviently left out non-canon material from the same tech manual that also shows that certain types of photon torpedoes have potential yields of around 800 gigatons.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

One of the larger projects I undertook in analyzing TOS was attempting to estimate the total distance covered by the Enterprise. See here.

In TOS, a lot of RL star names are used, especially in the first two seasons. The result is that we can be pretty sure that the Enterprise drove 6,000+ light years under its own power in the first season based on stated distances and stars visited. In the second season, the figure seems to be around 9,000-12,000 light years. In the third season, they stopped using RL star names very much.

I did the same project for Voyager. One of the interesting things that I discovered is that the distances in Voyager don't add up. If you assume that the 70,000 LY / 75 year journey is a straight path with constant speed, your figures will be off by a factor of 1.5-2. Voyager's path - much like the efficient path for an off-road vehicle with a broken axle
- is not anywhere near straight, and wasn't expected to involve a constant speed of slightly less than 1000c.

Yes, well there are lots of contradictions in VOY. Your project did not include the two additional instances of improved navigational data helping to reduce years off the Voyager's journey home. There are also other high-speed references in VOY besides the 21,400c reference from "The 37's; "Maneuvers" has the ship travelling at 2 billion km/sec, or nearly 7,000c, while "Unimatrix Zero" indicates 9,000c. Both of these would get the ship home in about 10 years or less.
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

Mr. Wong has proven that Federation ships, at most, have 64 megatons of firepower for their photon torpedoes.

Since when? Wong has never "proven" anything except to quote erroneous information from a badly outdated non-canon technical manual. Episodes such as VOY's "Rise" or TNG's "Skin of Evil", indicate torpedo yields well in excess of 64 MT. Wong also conviently left out non-canon material from the same tech manual that also shows that certain types of photon torpedoes have potential yields of around 800 gigatons.
-Mike

Mike, I am getting tired of arguing with you. You present solid evidence, while I keep using Wong as my source. You are a good debater. Anyways, I am tired of this shit. I myself am a fan of Star Trek, especially of The Next Generation. My dad's a fan of both the Original Series and of The Next Generation. There both good shows. Yes, I am both a Trekkie and a Warsie, although I argue pro-Wars. From now on, I will be netural, stating the good and bads of both sides. I will use movie canon and Expanded-Universe canon.

[Youngla0450]

I written something here http://fiction.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_ ... tic_Empire. It includes no wank, but is about what the Empire would do if it ruled the Universe. Please read it, read about the atrocities the Empire committed. Reasons it could be overthrown, etc.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I written something here http://fiction.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_ ... tic_Empire. It includes no wank, but is about what the Empire would do if it ruled the Universe. Please read it, read about the atrocities the Empire committed. Reasons it could be overthrown, etc.

Wrong everything.
This has no place here, and you have been told about it several times already.

[Mike DiCenso]

Mike, I am getting tired of arguing with you. You present solid evidence, while I keep using Wong as my source. You are a good debater. Anyways, I am tired of this shit. I myself am a fan of Star Trek, especially of The Next Generation. My dad's a fan of both the Original Series and of The Next Generation. There both good shows. Yes, I am both a Trekkie and a Warsie, although I argue pro-Wars. From now on, I will be netural, stating the good and bads of both sides. I will use movie canon and Expanded-Universe canon.

Okay. Taking a pro-Wars stance is not the issue, it is how you go about it. That is what everyone here has been trying to hammer home to you. You cannot be nasty to people one instance and then be nice to them in another and hope that the'll overlook it. It just does not work. And yes, it helps to do your own original research instead of swiping someone else's.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Yes, well there are lots of contradictions in VOY.

In everything, but we try to resolve things the best that we can.

In the case of VOY, the fact that the path length seems significantly longer than the displacement is a pretty easy one to canonically explain. It's actually something that makes a lot of sense - even if it was probably accidental on the part of the writers.

It's especially easy to explain when you deal with minimum energy requirements, as I do. The problem there is that we need subspace topography to be influenced by gravity - and the result of that is that subspace looks very rough. Imagine a giant rubber sheet that's had a million tiny lead weights hooked to the underside. You don't want to pass too close to the center, because that's depth that you have to climb back out of. You'll want to be swerving and curving a lot to make your path as smooth as possible.

Dust concentrations are probably also relevant - imagine the rubber sheet is polished shiny smooth in some places, and in other parts has a rough matte finish.

To switch metaphors, gravity is providing peaks or valleys (topography), while the dust concentrations determine whether it is shifting sand, mud, grass, or baked clay (geology). Then subspace itself has conditions - weather. So plotting a good course becomes very complicated, and good data is golden.

Warp drive might not be quite as finicky as hyperdrive, but it's almost certainly affected by local geography. That's the easiest way to accommodate some variation in warp drive performance. We may still want to throw out a number of outliers (such as STV) but we don't have to throw out most of the canon that way.

Your project did not include the two additional instances of improved navigational data helping to reduce years off the Voyager's journey home.

That would be an omission. Care to point me to those two?

There are also other high-speed references in VOY besides the 21,400c reference from "The 37's; "Maneuvers" has the ship travelling at 2 billion km/sec, or nearly 7,000c, while "Unimatrix Zero" indicates 9,000c. Both of these would get the ship home in about 10 years or less.
-Mike

Yes, but those are speeds at some particular moment, not really attached to any significant amount of distance.

[Mike DiCenso]

That would be an omission. Care to point me to those two?

As I pointed out serval times to Kane recently, "Hope and Fear", and "Q2" both have similar instances. Although "Hope and Fear" is not definite the way the other two examples are since the original Starfleet message has them sending all available navigational data on the Delta Quadrant in the hope of shaving "a few years" off teh hourney home. Of particular note is that this is only months after YoH, and Starfleet would by this time know of the 5 years shaved off, so there was plenty of opportunities for such reductions, and the "Q2" example only clinches it since it takes places not only years later, but when the ship is some 30,000 light years from the Alpha Quadrant.

]Yes, but those are speeds at some particular moment, not really attached to any significant amount of distance.

On the first two examples, that's correct, although in the "Maneuvers" example, they seem to be sustaining the speed quite well for a considerable duration. As for the "Unimatrix, Part 1" example, judge for yourself, we have both distance and time:

TUVOK: An asteroid approximately two light years from here.

JANEWAY: Yellow alert. Set a course.

PARIS: We're in range.

JANEWAY: Drop to impulse. On screen. Magnify.

TUVOK: I'm reading artificial structures. It's a colony of some kind.

JANEWAY: Open a channel. This is Captain Janeway of the Starship Voyager. We received your distress call. Life signs?

TUVOK: None.

KIM: I'm detecting residual weapons signatures. They're Borg.

JANEWAY: Any vessels?

TUVOK: One. A cube at the edge of this system.

JANEWAY: Resume our previous course, Mister Paris, warp six. Make a note in the ship's record. We responded to a distress call at oh nine hundred hours. Arrived at the colony two hours later. No survivors. We don't know who these people were, but we know the Borg destroyed them.

So we have Voyager managing 2 light years in 2 hours, or 8,760c.
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

Mike, I am getting tired of arguing with you. You present solid evidence, while I keep using Wong as my source. You are a good debater. Anyways, I am tired of this shit. I myself am a fan of Star Trek, especially of The Next Generation. My dad's a fan of both the Original Series and of The Next Generation. There both good shows. Yes, I am both a Trekkie and a Warsie, although I argue pro-Wars. From now on, I will be netural, stating the good and bads of both sides. I will use movie canon and Expanded-Universe canon.

Okay. Taking a pro-Wars stance is not the issue, it is how you go about it. That is what everyone here has been trying to hammer home to you. You cannot be nasty to people one instance and then be nice to them in another and hope that the'll overlook it. It just does not work. And yes, it helps to do your own original research instead of swiping someone else's.
-Mike

Then I will just withdraw. Anyways, I apologize to everybody who I insulted. While most of you will still call me a wanker, a troll, and such, I am not going to be anymore. And the Dude is totally wrong that I am scheprhonic or whatever it is. I am not. My Uncles are, but I am not.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mike, I am getting tired of arguing with you. You present solid evidence, while I keep using Wong as my source. You are a good debater. Anyways, I am tired of this shit. I myself am a fan of Star Trek, especially of The Next Generation. My dad's a fan of both the Original Series and of The Next Generation. There both good shows. Yes, I am both a Trekkie and a Warsie, although I argue pro-Wars. From now on, I will be netural, stating the good and bads of both sides. I will use movie canon and Expanded-Universe canon.

Okay. Taking a pro-Wars stance is not the issue, it is how you go about it. That is what everyone here has been trying to hammer home to you. You cannot be nasty to people one instance and then be nice to them in another and hope that the'll overlook it. It just does not work. And yes, it helps to do your own original research instead of swiping someone else's.
-Mike

Then I will just withdraw. Anyways, I apologize to everybody who I insulted. While most of you will still call me a wanker, a troll, and such, I am not going to be anymore. And the Dude is totally wrong that I am scheprhonic or whatever it is. I am not. My Uncles are, but I am not.

Quick!

[Picard]

Long time no see with this forum. Anyway I made my own blog in meantime:

http://picard578.blogspot.com

Here is something about torpedo yields:

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/u ... yield.html

[The Dude]

32 lightyear range for the Yamato, WTF?

[Picard]

Mr. Wong has proven that Federation ships, at most, have 64 megatons of firepower for their photon torpedoes.

Since when? Wong has never "proven" anything except to quote erroneous information from a badly outdated non-canon technical manual. Episodes such as VOY's "Rise" or TNG's "Skin of Evil", indicate torpedo yields well in excess of 64 MT. Wong also conviently left out non-canon material from the same tech manual that also shows that certain types of photon torpedoes have potential yields of around 800 gigatons.
-Mike

Mike, I am getting tired of arguing with you. You present solid evidence, while I keep using Wong as my source. You are a good debater. Anyways, I am tired of this shit. I myself am a fan of Star Trek, especially of The Next Generation. My dad's a fan of both the Original Series and of The Next Generation. There both good shows. Yes, I am both a Trekkie and a Warsie, although I argue pro-Wars. From now on, I will be netural, stating the good and bads of both sides. I will use movie canon and Expanded-Universe canon.

Wong takes minimum possible figures for Star Trek and maximum possible for Star Wars. If you want to use SW EU then use Memory Gamma too - it is ST equivalent of ICS, except that it is in wiki form.