United Federation of Planets vs Galacitic Empire

[Mr. Oragahn]

There is no evidence for planetary shields or theatre shields on Coruscant in the movies, their novelizations or The Clone Wars. If there were planetary shields, they would have been mentioned - at least in the RotS novelization. Insofar, RotS is only making sense, if there are no planetary shields.

Yes, there's quite an obvious disagreement here, especially against sources that mention that the CIS fleet was stuck between two layers.*That said other sources say that Palpatine put shields there after that attack.

I believe the bloom of planetary shielding happened after that, Coruscant probably being the model. But there's not been such a massive spread of such shields, contrary to what some people think.
You have Bothawui, but the Bothans are very, very cautious and a tad paranoiac, there's Caamas, and then Coruscant that I know of, which had full coverage. All of them needed several generators.
We precisely know that the Lusankya was placed on Coruscant under the guise of the installation of a new planetary shield generator in that region.

I'm very weary of using wookieepedia as a source because it contains the same old fallacy about the shield on Alderaan, and cites the novelization as evidence while it's totally wrong, and there's even an EU source that says Alderaan had no shield whatsoever (Dark Empire Sourcebook, page 125).
I say an edit of the wookieepedia page is most necessary.

Of course the claim that Naboo had such shields comes directly from... surprise surprise... the AOTC:ICS.
Funny eh?

There's also Nar Shaddaa, which is said to have an old network of such shield generators, and that's all. It's also a moon.

I think the evidence is actually very slim. And I'm yet to see evidence that a single generator can cover an entire planet.

According to the EU, planetary shields are shields that are encompassing the whole planet. Several shield generators may be necessary, but the resulting shield is not the result of overlapping theatre shields.

In fact, "A World to Conquer" clearly defines planetary shields as theater shields. What warrants the term planetary is because they're ground based, on planets, and possibly because they're meant to be operated in atmospheres.
And the only moment the quotation says that a planet may get full coverage in within the context of a sentence that mentions planetary shields, with an s.

As far as I know, the EU does not say anything about overlapping theatre shields.

Overlapping, I don't know -although there could be such a reference somewhere- but there's a clear idea of a patchwork of shields. At the very least they touch, and may overlap on the edges a bit.

Shields that can only stop turbo-laser-fire are pretty useless. If someone wanted to attack a so protected planet, that someone would either use only torpedoes, rockets or bombs in his attack or that someone would plan to destroy the shield-generators by using such devices. After that, he could use all weapons. And that the planetary defence system would not be enough to stop a massive attack on a shield generator with torpedoes, rockets or bombs was shown by the RotS novelization. The planetary defence system of Coruscant wasn't even enough to destroy the debris from in the orbit destroyed ships.

Planetary shields block solids and energy beams. They stop asteroids and missiles from torpedo spheres as well.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Planetary shields block solids and energy beams. They stop asteroids and missiles from torpedo spheres as well.

Theater-shields don't block solids, they're just ray-shields.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Planetary shields block solids and energy beams. They stop asteroids and missiles from torpedo spheres as well.

Theater-shields don't block solids, they're just ray-shields.

Coruscant's shields blocked asteroids. They pretty much were the central plot point of a whole section of Zahn's trilogy, and the description of torpedo spheres clearly shows that torpedoes will be stopped by such shields.

[Mike DiCenso]

The theater shield protecting Hoth in TESB most definitely blocked ships and such as evidenced by the Rebels having to drop the shields briefly to allow each transport convoy through, and the Imperial forces having to land beyond the shield and send in ground forces underneath it to knock out the generator powering it.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

The theater shield protecting Hoth in TESB most definitely blocked ships and such as evidenced by the Rebels having to drop the shields briefly to allow each transport convoy through, and the Imperial forces having to land beyond the shield and send in ground forces underneath it to knock out the generator powering it.
-Mike

They had to drop the shield to fire the ion-canon to cover the transorts.

If the ground-forces could just go in under the shields, why couldn't the Empire just fly in under it, and attack from the air?

No, the ground-forces (AT-AT's) were simply able to resist the Rebels' fighter-ships, while their arial-attacks couldn't. They landed outside the shields so that the Star-Destroyers could cover their landing-craft as they landed the AT-AT's.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Planetary shields block solids and energy beams. They stop asteroids and missiles from torpedo spheres as well.

Theater-shields don't block solids, they're just ray-shields.

Coruscant's shields blocked asteroids. They pretty much were the central plot point of a whole section of Zahn's trilogy, and the description of torpedo spheres clearly shows that torpedoes will be stopped by such shields.

Again, you're quoting from the EU, that's not canon.

Star Wars canon only gives examples of long-range tech that include ray-shields and tractor-beams, while particle-shields are only short range-- and deflector-beams are not seen at all.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The theater shield protecting Hoth in TESB most definitely blocked ships and such as evidenced by the Rebels having to drop the shields briefly to allow each transport convoy through, and the Imperial forces having to land beyond the shield and send in ground forces underneath it to knock out the generator powering it.
-Mike

They had to drop the shield to fire the ion-canon to cover the transorts.

If the ground-forces could just go in under the shields, why couldn't the Empire just fly in under it, and attack from the air?

No, the ground-forces (AT-AT's) were simply able to resist the Rebels' fighter-ships, while their arial-attacks couldn't. They landed outside the shields so that the Star-Destroyers could cover their landing-craft as they landed the AT-AT's.

IF what you say is true, simply sending TIE bombers and fighters through the shield would have done the job. The Rebels would have had even less chances to stop them.

Coruscant's shields blocked asteroids. They pretty much were the central plot point of a whole section of Zahn's trilogy, and the description of torpedo spheres clearly shows that torpedoes will be stopped by such shields.

Again, you're quoting from the EU, that's not canon.

Star Wars canon only gives examples of long-range tech that include ray-shields and tractor-beams, while particle-shields are only short range-- and deflector-beams are not seen at all.

There are two canons and I have not seen that this discussion was restricted to the movie canon only.
Shields blocking solids isn't hard to find in the movie canon either.

TPM: shields stop the N-1's proton torpedoes.
TPM: shields block two Jedi and a Sith, as well as lightsabres.
AOTC: a killed droid cuts through the force field protecting the windows or the entirety of the building where Padmé is sleeping in order to drop two poisonous creatures.
ROTS: Anakin destroys hangar bay shields to allow him and Obi-Wan to land inside the Invisible Hand.
ROTS: a force field traps the two Jedi.
ROTS: shields stop lava bursts and molten debris from damaging structures.
ROTJ: shield needing to be opened to let the Tydirium shuttle pass through.
ROTJ novel: Ships crashing against the shield projected from Endor.

There surely are other references to pick but that should do for the moment.

[KirkSkyWalker]

NOW you're confusing localized particle-shields with remote theater-shields.
Likwise, the shield-generator on Endor was a huge specialized installation with a ginormous transmitter-dish, not a standard theater-shield.
Finally, ray-shields could stop people, by apparently inflicting harm if they touched them-- as they proved in RoTS when they proved on Grievous's ship when they trapped Obi-wan and Anakin along with Palpatine.

[Mr. Oragahn]

NOW you're confusing localized particle-shields with remote theater-shields.
Likwise, the shield-generator on Endor was a huge specialized installation with a ginormous transmitter-dish, not a standard theater-shield.

What broken logic is that? We see that shields of varying scales can do what you claim theater shields can't do: We know the small ones can do it. We know the big ones can do it. Yet you think the middle ones couldn't?
It's absurd.

That the Endor shield was "specialized" is not important. It was just specialized in casting a powerful force field in a given way. Now imagine that they decide to cast this force field as a bubble over a nation and you're done.

Finally, ray-shields could stop people, by apparently inflicting harm if they touched them-- as they proved in RoTS when they proved on Grievous's ship when they trapped Obi-wan and Anakin along with Palpatine.

I thought ray shields were those stopping... rays.
Anyway, what makes you think they couldn't cast those ray shields in the shape of bubbles? As seen above, we can safely know that they can.
It's not always the case (Gungan shields, but they were kinda unique), but they can.

[KirkSkyWalker]

NOW you're confusing localized particle-shields with remote theater-shields.
Likwise, the shield-generator on Endor was a huge specialized installation with a ginormous transmitter-dish, not a standard theater-shield.

What broken logic is that? We see that shields of varying scales can do what you claim theater shields can't do: We know the small ones can do it. We know the big ones can do it. Yet you think the middle ones couldn't?
It's absurd.
That the Endor shield was "specialized" is not important. It was just specialized in casting a powerful force field in a given way. Now imagine that they decide to cast this force field as a bubble over a nation and you're done.

Then why couldn’t the one on Endor protect itself, as well as the Death Star?
Likewise, there’s the issue of cost; by your logic, every nation could have its own Death Star, too.

Finally, ray-shields could stop people, by apparently inflicting harm if they touched them-- as they proved in RoTS when they proved on Grievous's ship when they trapped Obi-wan and Anakin along with Palpatine.

I thought ray shields were those stopping... rays.

Nobody said they were harmless to people, however.

Anyway, what makes you think they couldn't cast those ray shields in the shape of bubbles? As seen above, we can safely know that they can.
It's not always the case (Gungan shields, but they were kinda unique), but they can.

We’re talking about particle-shields, which we’ve never seen that size over a land-area, or at all without great expense.
Meanwhile, the only particle-shields that Gungans had were little bitty undersea-bubbles.

[Praeothmin]

The shield at Endor did protect itself, since the Rebels didn't simply fly in, thrown a few Proton torpedoes at it, and then attack the DS.
They needed to send an infiltration team to pass through the shield with a stolen Imperial shuttle because no bombardment could have destroyed the shield generator, since it was protecting itself.

"It is protected by an energy shield, which is generated from the nearby forest moon of Endor. The shield must be deactivated if any attack is to be attempted."

And Ray shields may be hazardous to living beings, for we effectively do not see anyone go through even ray shields, but that still doesn't mean that the Hoth shield was only a ray shield.
Had it only been a ray shield, the Empire could have bombarded the generator with Proton Torpedoes, again, and destroy it to enable landing operations close to the rebel base.
They didn't, because the shield was powerful enough to "deflect any bombardment"...
The walkers also came in from far away, indicating they had been dropped out of the shield area, and had to walk under it to get to the base, just like the Rebels on Endor neede to get through the shield with an Imperial shuttle...

[Mr. Oragahn]

What broken logic is that? We see that shields of varying scales can do what you claim theater shields can't do: We know the small ones can do it. We know the big ones can do it. Yet you think the middle ones couldn't?
It's absurd.
That the Endor shield was "specialized" is not important. It was just specialized in casting a powerful force field in a given way. Now imagine that they decide to cast this force field as a bubble over a nation and you're done.

Then why couldn’t the one on Endor protect itself, as well as the Death Star?

1. It's not up to me to reply to this question, since I established what I needed to establish.
2. The shield also protected the generator. It's obvious. They had to open a hole so they could landle the shuttle near the base. If what you say is true, this would have been pointless, and above all, the Rebels could have directly attacked it with bombers.

Likewise, there’s the issue of cost; by your logic, every nation could have its own Death Star, too.

I don't even know where to start with that total red herring and absurd claim. Like if somehow the setting of a theater shield could only be done if you started a Death Star project at the same time...

Nobody said they were harmless to people, however.

Irrelevant.

Anyway, what makes you think they couldn't cast those ray shields in the shape of bubbles? As seen above, we can safely know that they can.
It's not always the case (Gungan shields, but they were kinda unique), but they can.

We’re talking about particle-shields, which we’ve never seen that size over a land-area, or at all without great expense.
Meanwhile, the only particle-shields that Gungans had were little bitty undersea-bubbles.

1. I'm not even sure that the concept of particle shields is seconded in the higher canon. Perhaps in AOTC's or ROTS' novelizations, at best.
2. I gave you examples of shields of various scales stopping solid objects. That's all we need.

Come on, just drop the point, it's getting silly.

[Mike DiCenso]

They had to drop the shield to fire the ion-canon to cover the transorts.

If the ground-forces could just go in under the shields, why couldn't the Empire just fly in under it, and attack from the air?

No, the ground-forces (AT-AT's) were simply able to resist the Rebels' fighter-ships, while their arial-attacks couldn't. They landed outside the shields so that the Star-Destroyers could cover their landing-craft as they landed the AT-AT's.

From the actual dialog:

LEIA: All troop carriers will assemble at the north entrance. The
heavy transport ships will leave as soon as they're loaded. Only two
fighter escorts per ship. The energy shield can only be opened for a
short time, so you'll have to stay very close to your transports.

HOBBIE: Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?

LEIA: The ion cannon will fire several shots to make sure that any
enemy ships will be out of your flight path. When you've gotten past
the energy shield, proceed directly to the rendezvous point. Understood?


Note the context of the structure here. The shield can only be opened for a few seconds to allow them to leave, then the pilot brings up concerns about the Imperial ships blockading the planet, to which in a seperate reply, Leia tells him the ion cannon will be fired to clear the path. Therefore:

1.) The shield must be dropped to let ships through

2.) the ion cannon is not mentioned at all, and the pilots seemed ignorant of it being used, thus Hobbie's question.

3.) Seperate from the briefing and in answer to Hobbie, Leia tells them the ion cannon will be fired.

4.) The ion cannon being fired is not dependent on information given in 1.

5.) The Empire could easily have sent TIE fighters and bombers down to strafe and blow up the shield generator, though for whatever reason they'd need to is rendered moot since all the troops could be brought down along with it, if the sield was permable to KE.

6.) Vader could only land with his group after General Veers brought down the shield

Speaking of Vader he says this

"Make ready to land out troops beyond the energy shield and
deploy the fleet so that nothing gets off that system. You are in
command now, Admiral Piett."

So why tell Veers to land beyond the shield, if he and his landers can penetrate it? Why does Vader specifically tell him in such a broad term as if the shield were one thing, not seperate ones?

Conclusion, the Hoth shield blocked both KE and energy as one system.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

They had to drop the shield to fire the ion-canon to cover the transorts.

If the ground-forces could just go in under the shields, why couldn't the Empire just fly in under it, and attack from the air?

No, the ground-forces (AT-AT's) were simply able to resist the Rebels' fighter-ships, while their arial-attacks couldn't. They landed outside the shields so that the Star-Destroyers could cover their landing-craft as they landed the AT-AT's.

From the actual dialog:

LEIA: All troop carriers will assemble at the north entrance. The
heavy transport ships will leave as soon as they're loaded. Only two
fighter escorts per ship. The energy shield can only be opened for a
short time, so you'll have to stay very close to your transports.

HOBBIE: Two fighters against a Star Destroyer?

LEIA: The ion cannon will fire several shots to make sure that any
enemy ships will be out of your flight path. When you've gotten past
the energy shield, proceed directly to the rendezvous point. Understood?


Note the context of the structure here. The shield can only be opened for a few seconds to allow them to leave, then the pilot brings up concerns about the Imperial ships blockading the planet, to which in a seperate reply, Leia tells him the ion cannon will be fired to clear the path. Therefore:

1.) The shield must be dropped to let ships through

2.) the ion cannon is not mentioned at all, and the pilots seemed ignorant of it being used, thus Hobbie's question.

3.) Seperate from the briefing and in answer to Hobbie, Leia tells them the ion cannon will be fired.

4.) The ion cannon being fired is not dependent on information given in 1.

5.) The Empire could easily have sent TIE fighters and bombers down to strafe and blow up the shield generator, though for whatever reason they'd need to is rendered moot since all the troops could be brought down along with it, if the sield was permable to KE.

6.) Vader could only land with his group after General Veers brought down the shield

Speaking of Vader he says this

"Make ready to land out troops beyond the energy shield and
deploy the fleet so that nothing gets off that system. You are in
command now, Admiral Piett."

So why tell Veers to land beyond the shield, if he and his landers can penetrate it? Why does Vader specifically tell him in such a broad term as if the shield were one thing, not seperate ones?

Conclusion, the Hoth shield blocked both KE and energy as one system.
-Mike

That's a broad conclusion, as there are other possible explanations.
Again, they would want to land outside the energy-shield, so that they could be covered by the star-destroyers while landing; while the AT-AT's could withstand direct fighter-fire, they couldn't stand falling thousands of feet when the landers were attacked by fighters because the Star Destroyers couldn't cover them.
As for the shield being dropped in order for ships to leave: it's entirely possible that it could interfere with the ion-engines of the rebel-ships, making it difficult to leave the planet-- but that wouldn't apply to Imperial ships landing, of course.
Finally, it would be pretty stupid to have your whole base covered by a shield-- except for a 100-foot tall gap above the ground! It doesn't make sense that the shields would be so limited-- and have such a gaping flaw.
As I stated, TIE-bombers and fighters were vulnerable to Rebel fighter-ships, while the AT-AT's weren't; otherwise, the Empire would simply have the TIE-ships fly in under the energy-shield, rather than have the AT-AT's walk under it.
Rather, it seems that ray-shields are like a circus-tent; i.e. it will stop energy (in the form of sunlight), but not a solid object like a knife etc; however it's relatively light, and requires little power for its size to keep it up. Meanwhile particle shields are like a suit of armor, and will stop solid objects; but it's much heavier, and requires more power to keep up; so it's naturally kept only as big as necessary to protect the target.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Likewise, there’s the issue of cost; by your logic, every nation could have its own Death Star, too.

I don't even know where to start with that total red herring and absurd claim.

Then I accept your concession, despite the arbitrary ad hominems which mean nothing (other than that you belong on SDN).

Like if somehow the setting of a theater shield could only be done if you started a Death Star project at the same time...

No, only if you had the budget for one-- what part of "there's the issue of cost," do you NOT understand?

Nobody said they were harmless to people, however.

Irrelevant.

Only if you deny that Obi-wan and Anakin are PEOPLE.

1. I'm not even sure that the concept of particle shields is seconded in the higher canon. Perhaps in AOTC's or ROTS' novelizations, at best.

So when Obi-wan said "ray-shields!" in RotS, then he was just being superfluous, since "shields are shields?"
Likewise in TPM, those droids were able to walk through the Gungan's theater-shield pretty easily, desite being unable to shoot through it; however you're claiming that while droids could walk through Gungan-shields, somehow water couldn't get through, as in the underwater city? That's an awfully funny shield which can block water but not droids.
Likewise, the Jedi and Jar-Jar were able to cross through the shields, so clearly particle-shields could be selective about what they stopped; so why would the Gungans want to stop energy-weapons, but not enemy-soldiers?

Meanwhile, Obi-wan, Qui-gon and Darth Maul were separated by solid wall-like shields in the Naboo power-station, which didn't look a thing like the ray-shields in RotS.

2. I gave you examples of shields of various scales stopping solid objects. That's all we need.

Not theater-shields-- other than the one on Endor, which I already stated was clearly unique to the DS II for reasons of cost.
Rather, you simply flip out examples of small, localized particle-shields, and say "There! see? Theater shields can block solid objects!" in complete non-sequitur fashion.

Come on, just drop the point, it's getting silly.

I already accepted your concession, however I think you already broke the "silly" barrier some 12 par-secs back.