Star wars vs star trek......what the hell

[KirkSkyWalker]

There is always bias one way or the other, on every vs. board on the internet. If there was no bias, there would be no debate.

It is not a matter of there is a bias at Stardestroyer.net, but how bias, and the fact the bias is taken to a foolish extreme on purpose.

Lucky's a psychic mind-reader, you know-- he knows what people "really" mean, in direct contradiction of all empirical evidence.

For instance, Mike Wong has argued for years and years about the various details of SW, canon and EU, but Lucky claims that this is just a big ha-ha, even down to Wong's fuming and cursing about it-- and Mike Wong has a really complex and eccentric sense of humor which only Lucky can understand.

[Mr. Oragahn]

We know they can build weapons with great range: warships back in ROTS had ranges in the hundreds of kilometers, with turbolasers fast enough to cover that distance in a couple seconds.
We know that their planetary turbolasers have ranges in the thousands of kilometers (by the EU).

So they have STL weapons with 1% of a starship’s range—and that’s only in the EU.

That's 10%, not 1%.
A planetary turbolaser is mounted on a platform that's 150 meters wide. The cannon bore easily measures more than 21 meters in width.
Obviously starships don't mount those.
However, the "basic" planetary TL like the w-165 has its own power core encased in the large pod, and it's about 42 meters wide (wookieepedia says 50, I only judged with the stuff that sticks out - wook also says it has 4 m of armour and its own shields). It's obviously not going to be as powerful as a v-150 powered by its own large reactor buried beneath, as it was at Hoth.

Hell, the typical turbolaser turret is given an effective range of 15 km and a maximum range of 100 km, which is inferior to the statement made in the ROTS novelization.

Starships can strike from HUNDREDS of thousands of kilometers (TNG: “The Wounded”).

Is it a phaser beam or a torpedo?

We know that if you fly on a more or less predictable path, there are ion cannons which can take your ship down in one shot from several thousand kilometers away, and up to 180,000 km in the EU (max range, the optimal range being 4000 km.

IF your ship doesn’t have deflector-dshes, subspace deflector-shields and primary force-fields like the Federation starships do. Ions don’t affect Federation ships.

1. Deflector dishes hardly deflect torpedoes or the nadion particles of phaser/disruptor beams, so they're irrelevant.
2. Subspace interception/deviation tech does not matter to realspace weapons.
3. Battle shields are the only concern here. SW shields can cope with ions as "laser" bolts contain plasma as much as light (it's a weird mix), and they stop them well enough.

Now the larger ion cannons are cumbersome to work out. They need minutes to acquire a target and are slow to move.
The PTLs would be much more reliable.

Mixed to the planetary shield technology, something tells me that Trek trying to take the SW galaxy would not be a walk in the park at all.

Sure, if you consider the EU to be canon, like SDN does. Otherwise it’s as easy as falling off a log—and the EU isn’t canon.

The EU is canon within a specific policy which is largely supported by Lucas' business.
Going without the EU is also problematic because we get little information. We only get TCWS as bonus material, which is OK as far as storytelling is concerned, but not reliable enough for calcs, since it borrows conventions from the cartoon style, and not necessarily the serious kind.
Can't wait for the liveaction show though.

They can still an old superlaser design and work on a much smaller variant, enough to get long range shooting with near instant-hit beams.

If you consider .168C to be “near instant-hit—“

Far more than enough.
And of course in the EU, the superlaser propagation is nothing more than an upscaled version of technology they know very well, as per the novel "Death Star".
However, like anything, the speed of matter is dictated by how much energy you want to spend in it for its acceleration.

while phasers move at tens of thousands of times lightspeed.

No they don't.
They move that fast while inside the warp bubble of the ship that fired it. I believe I don't have to point out the obvious conclusion of this little fact that seems to have escaped your attention.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Starship phasers have range of 300,000 kilometers.

We know that if you fly on a more or less predictable path, there are ion cannons which can take your ship down in one shot from several thousand kilometers away, and up to 180,000 km in the EU (max range, the optimal range being 4000 km.

IF your ship doesn’t have deflector-dshes, subspace deflector-shields and primary force-fields like the Federation starships do. Ions don’t affect Federation ships.

1. Deflector dishes hardly deflect torpedoes or the nadion particles of phaser/disruptor beams, so they're irrelevant.

Those are subspace-based weapons; comparing nadions to ions is… pretty misinformed about the difference.
Likewise, ST torpedoes have shields that that are obviously more powerful than those of deflector-shields, to the point that they glow from the intensity.

2. Subspace interception/deviation tech does not matter to realspace weapons.

Just the space they travel through, which gets bent, and the weapon thus deflected almost effortlessly.

3. Battle shields are the only concern here. SW shields can cope with ions as "laser" bolts contain plasma as much as light (it's a weird mix), and they stop them well enough.

And that’s standard EM-based energy, not subspace-based.

The EU is canon within a specific policy which is largely supported by Lucas' business.

Nopers. It’s a DIFFERENT UNIVERSE.

Going without the EU is also problematic because we get little information.

Which is only VALID in a different universe.
Think of it as “Shroedingers Fettbox;” in one universe Boba Fett escaped the Sarlacc-pit, in the other one he died. Guess which one we’re talking about?

If you consider .168C to be “near instant-hit—“

Far more than enough.

To hit a WARP-driven starship? At 300,000 km, it would take the beam SEVEN SECONDS to reach its target—by which time the ship would be long outta there.

However, like anything, the speed of matter is dictated by how much energy you want to spend in it for its acceleration.

If you’ve never heard of a little thing called E=MC^2. Beyond lightspeed, you need subspace-based tech in order to exceed it.

while phasers move at tens of thousands of times lightspeed.

No they don't.
They move that fast while inside the warp bubble of the ship that fired it. I believe I don't have to point out the obvious conclusion of this little fact that seems to have escaped your attention.

Yes, they do. The warp-bubble isn’t much bigger than the ship, while the-beam clearly moves that fast outside of it.
Phasers use subspace-distortion technology just like the warp-bubble, so it clearly doesn’t need the ship’s warp-bubble to move that fast.

[Praeothmin]

Ions don’t affect Federation ships.

As a matter of fact, they do...

“ while phasers move at tens of thousands of times lightspeed.

While I find your "Turbolaser-like" Phaser theory interesting, it still has too many unknowns to use it as fact of thousands of c speeds for Phasers...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Ions don’t affect Federation ships.

As a matter of fact, they do...

Comparing an ion-cannon to an ion-storm is like comparing a super-soaker to a tsunami.

“ while phasers move at tens of thousands of times lightspeed.

While I find your "Turbolaser-like" Phaser theory interesting, it still has too many unknowns to use as fact of thousands of c speeds for Phasers...

I never had any such theory. And phasers move at TENS of thousands of times lightspeed.

[Praeothmin]

Comparing an ion-cannon to an ion-storm is like comparing a super-soaker to a tsunami

And of course, you have the calculations that prove that the Ion cannon bolt was super weak and that it did not have the concentrated power of an Ion Storm?

I never had any such theory. And phasers move at TENS of thousands of times lightspeed.

It was in this thread, at page 6, but I re-read it and it was something I was asking Mike, so you're right, it's not from you.
Essentially, the problem I have with this theory is that, unlike Turbolasers, we've never seen damage occur before the visible Phaser bolt or ray hits the target.
We also see the bolts or rays propagate.
So if indeed Phasers move at tens of thousands of c, then we should not see this bolt propagate at all, and if you posit that Phasers act as Turbolasers, with a visible STL part and an invisible FTL part, then we should sometimes see damage occur before the visible part hits, which we never do...
So I have issues with this theory...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Comparing an ion-cannon to an ion-storm is like comparing a super-soaker to a tsunami

And of course, you have the calculations that prove that the Ion cannon bolt was super weak and that it did not have the concentrated power of an Ion Storm?

Yes, because to claim that the ion-canon had the full power of travelling throug an entire ion-storm, is just so absurd as to deny consideration.
Now if you're talking average density and velocity, then again you're talking supersoaker vs. tsunami, since water has the same density and velocity in both cases-- there's just a lot more OF it in the tsunami.

Likewise, the ion-storms mainly hinder starships by interfering with transporters and navigation.

Essentially, the problem I have with this theory is that, unlike Turbolasers, we've never seen damage occur before the visible Phaser bolt or ray hits the target.

Agrumentum ad ignorantium: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

We also see the bolts or rays propagate.
So if indeed Phasers move at tens of thousands of c, then we should not see this bolt propagate at all, and if you posit that Phasers act as Turbolasers, with a visible STL part and an invisible FTL part, then we should sometimes see damage occur before the visible part hits, which we never do...

You don't see it propogate, you just see the visible light which radiates from it as it moves through subspace, and which naturally takes longer to reach you from a longer distance since it only moves at C.

You don't know the distance of the obsevation-point from the target, so it could be showing a long distance from the target.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Comparing an ion-cannon to an ion-storm is like comparing a super-soaker to a tsunami.

True.

I never had any such theory. And phasers move at TENS of thousands of times lightspeed.

When have we seen phasers fired from a stationary ship accelerate to thousands of times c?.

[KirkSkyWalker]

When have we seen phasers fired from a stationary ship accelerate to thousands of times c?.

"Journey to Babel."

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

When have we seen phasers fired from a stationary ship accelerate to thousands of times c?.

"Journey to Babel."

They fired phasers and hit a ship approaching at a speed that was "dropping close to sub light" so hardly thousands of times c although it was certainly traveling FTL.

They also hit it while it was on approach so it was moving towards the phaser beam not away from it and as such the phaser beam had no reason or need to travel faster than c to "catch up" with the ship. Essentially the ship ran into the phaser beam while moving at slightly > than c but the phaser beam could easily have been sublight due to the positions of the ships.

[Praeothmin]

I suggest you re-read the Ion storm article, which suggests Ion storms can heavily damage ships (DS9 "Accession" and TOS "Court Martial").

And if you want to compare apples with apples, I suggest you compare a rain storm to a super soaker.
While there is much more water in the rain storm, the super-soaker concentrates much more of it in one place, which is why electronic equipment that is water-resistent can resist a rain storm, and not the super-soaker blast...
So the Ion concentration will have a high incidence on whether or not the Ion storm is as dangerous as the Ion bolt...

Agrumentum ad ignorantium: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Nor is it proof of what you state.
Prove it using evidence from ST, either onscreen or in books.

You don't see it propogate, you just see the visible light which radiates from it as it moves through subspace, and which naturally takes longer to reach you from a longer distance since it only moves at C

Ah, so it moves at tens of thousands of times C, but the light it radiates only moves at less then c, not c, because I see it move forward towards the target.
And you can prove this, of course?
And you can explain why the targetted ship only takes damage after the visible portion hits, even at long range, where the difference in speed should be so great?

See, in SW, we have some instances where damage was done before the visible part of the Turbolaser bolt hit, but we've never seen this in ST.

[User1356]

As you all complain about warsie bias at SDN and SB, the same can be said for Trek bias here or at ASVS since the majority of the posters there are from here, when you look at it from outside your own viewpoint

[Tyralak]

As you all complain about warsie bias at SDN and SB, the same can be said for Trek bias here or at ASVS since the majority of the posters there are from here, when you look at it from outside your own viewpoint

The bias people complain about is as regards moderation. How is ASVS biased? Name one time when any moderation was carried out in favor of one side or another? (Or any moderation at all for that matter) Hell, two of my 3 global mods are Warsies. (The third one is a troll, and doesn't care to debate. He's there for two reasons. He lives in GMT, and he's there to handle a certain element we haven't yet had to deal with.) Enigma is a Warsie. Prophet is a Haloite, but is pro-Wars. There really are only a couple of active Trekkies there. The recent debate rules were instituted by a consensus of all active members at the time. Most of them were penned by Questor. I wanted to get your input, but you were MIA.

[KirkSkyWalker]

When have we seen phasers fired from a stationary ship accelerate to thousands of times c?.

"Journey to Babel."

They fired phasers and hit a ship approaching at a speed that was "dropping close to sub light" so hardly thousands of times c although it was certainly traveling FTL.

They also hit it while it was on approach so it was moving towards the phaser beam not away from it and as such the phaser beam had no reason or need to travel faster than c to "catch up" with the ship. Essentially the ship ran into the phaser beam while moving at slightly > than c but the phaser beam could easily have been sublight due to the positions of the ships.

I'm talking about BEFORE Kirk played possum, the ship was busy strafing them at warp 10; so clearly phasers have to travel faster than that.

[KirkSkyWalker]

I suggest you re-read the Ion storm article, which suggests Ion storms can heavily damage ships (DS9 "Accession" and TOS "Court Martial").

And if you want to compare apples with apples, I suggest you compare a rain storm to a super soaker.

Neither of which can damage a ship, so it's comparing nothing to nothing.
In contrast, a tidal wave can damage a ship, so it's comparing something to nothing.

You don't see it propogate, you just see the visible light which radiates from it as it moves through subspace, and which naturally takes longer to reach you from a longer distance since it only moves at C

Ah, so it moves at tens of thousands of times C, but the light it radiates only moves at less then c, not c, because I see it move forward towards the target.

Your words, not mine. The light moves at C, but at an angle over a long distance.

See, in SW, we have some instances where damage was done before the visible part of the Turbolaser bolt hit, but we've never seen this in ST.

St-v-sw has debunked this claim of the "invisible turbolaser."