^_^How to rationalize the ICS stats?^_^

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

It is said several times throughout the OT and PT that the Force can controls things as well has some kind of will:

BEN: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.

LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?

BEN: Partially. But it also obeys your command

The Force obeys and controls according to Obi-Wan in ANH.

YODA : Trained as a Jedi, you request for him?

QUI-GON : Finding him was the will of the Force...I have no doubt of that.
There is too much happening here...

MACE WINDU : Bring him before us, then.

YODA : Tested he will be.

Qui-Gon Jinn mentions the Will of the Force for the first time in the movies.

ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?

QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all
living cells and communicates with the Force.

ANAKIN : They live inside of me?

QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.
ANAKIN : Symbionts?

QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the
midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the
Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

ANAKIN : They do??

QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to
you.

ANAKIN : I don't understand.

QUI-GON : With time and training, Annie...you will

The midi-chlorians are at the very least the mediator between lifeforms and the Force, and the Force here, at least according to Qui-Gon speaks it's will through them, again indicating and awareness and ability to control other beings.
-Mike

Seems pretty conclusive, the force as a overall entity seems to enjoy trouble on a galactic scale.

[Mike DiCenso]

Maybe the Force is a distant relative of the Gorgon and the Beta XII-A entity. >:-)
-Mike

[Lucky]

Where is it said midichlorians = The Force?

Where is it shown the Force has a will of it's own?

It is said several times throughout the OT and PT that the Force can controls things as well has some kind of will:

BEN: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.

LUKE: You mean it controls your actions?

BEN: Partially. But it also obeys your command

The Force obeys and controls according to Obi-Wan in ANH.

So we have a dogmatic mystic who is far from a 100% reliable source on anything.

YODA : Trained as a Jedi, you request for him?

QUI-GON : Finding him was the will of the Force...I have no doubt of that.
There is too much happening here...

MACE WINDU : Bring him before us, then.

YODA : Tested he will be.

Qui-Gon Jinn mentions the Will of the Force for the first time in the movies.

So again we have a dogmatic mystic who is far from a 100% reliable source on anything.

ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?

QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all
living cells and communicates with the Force.

ANAKIN : They live inside of me?

QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.
ANAKIN : Symbionts?

QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the
midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the
Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

ANAKIN : They do??

QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to
you.

ANAKIN : I don't understand.

QUI-GON : With time and training, Annie...you will

The midi-chlorians are at the very least the mediator between lifeforms and the Force, and the Force here, at least according to Qui-Gon speaks it's will through them, again indicating and awareness and ability to control other beings.
-Mike

A dogmatic mystic using followery speech to describe organelles to a kid.

If what QUI-GON said was true you could make force users.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organelle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrion

So the force never shows it's self to have a will?

What proof is there that there is even a force, and not just some psionics like in Rifts?

[Praeothmin]

Lucky, these "mystics" are far more reliable then any other person, and unless you can disprove what they say, then they are right, since they use and communicate with the Force, and they know more about it than any other beings who do not use it.

What proof is there that there is even a force, and not just some psionics like in Rifts?

However you choose to call it, we know it is there, as Masters of its use say it is, and it allows for great feats to be performed, both mentally and physically...

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mmm... the virgin Mary thing was quite new though. Usually paranormal activity was solely caused by the actions of Force sensitives (outside of the EU that is).
But then there was the cave at Dagobah, with Luke battling something that became true enough, solid enough for him to believe he was fighting his father, only to see his face in the helmet, and I don't think Yoda did that.
But again, that wasn't much of a decision on the Force's part. More like Luke's fears being made real.

I wonder if fat George didn't do it just for the controversy and ads, or eventually to be seen as a nod to the church of JC...

[Lucky]

Lucky, these "mystics" are far more reliable then any other person, and unless you can disprove what they say, then they are right, since they use and communicate with the Force, and they know more about it than any other beings who do not use it.

mystic |ˈmistik|
noun
a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect.

Jedi and Sith are mystics in a very literal sense.

All I see is dogma being repeated. Jedi and Sith tend to go by feelings rather then fact, and these feelings have been shown to be wrong from time to time.

I know of no serious research into the force.

What proof is there that there is even a force, and not just some psionics like in Rifts?

However you choose to call it, we know it is there, as Masters of its use say it is, and it allows for great feats to be performed, both mentally and physically...

We know characters have powers, but we don't know where these powers come from.

Those masters have been known to be wrong, and we never see the masters do any real research into the force.

[Lucky]

Mmm... the virgin Mary thing was quite new though. Usually paranormal activity was solely caused by the actions of Force sensitives (outside of the EU that is).

You mean Anakin's birth? There are several ways to possibly explain it without the "force" doing something on it's own.

She could have used the force, and caused it herself. Force powers tend to run in families it seems.

Some Jedi, Sith, or what ever could have had his way with her, and then removed the memory.

Mundane rape, just drug her, and she might not remember a thing.

But then there was the cave at Dagobah, with Luke battling something that became true enough, solid enough for him to believe he was fighting his father, only to see his face in the helmet, and I don't think Yoda did that.
But again, that wasn't much of a decision on the Force's part. More like Luke's fears being made real.

Yoda did say something about Luke only having what he brought with him as I recall. There seemed to be something odd about that cave.

Good old and dead Ben could have done it as well.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

noun
a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect.

Jedi and Sith are mystics in a very literal sense.

All I see is dogma being repeated. Jedi and Sith tend to go by feelings rather then fact, and these feelings have been shown to be wrong from time to time.

I know of no serious research into the force.

A dictionary descrip[tion of a word you personally appied to the individuals in question is rather weak as far as evidence is concerned.

Not only that but they have obviously researched it enough to identify it and in exact quantities in a few seconds from a simple blood test.

[Lucky]

noun
a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect.

Jedi and Sith are mystics in a very literal sense.

All I see is dogma being repeated. Jedi and Sith tend to go by feelings rather then fact, and these feelings have been shown to be wrong from time to time.

I know of no serious research into the force.

A dictionary descrip[tion of a word you personally appied to the individuals in question is rather weak as far as evidence is concerned.

It really depends on what I was trying to prove. Praeothmin put mystic in quotes seeming to me to imply he thought I was being insulting, or sarcastic. I simply proved Jedi and Sith are mystics.

Not only that but they have obviously researched it enough to identify it and in exact quantities in a few seconds from a simple blood test.

They know a high level of certain organelles tend to mean a high force potential, but we don't know how they know it. For all we know it was discovered by chance when someone looked at Jedi medical charts, or maybe a Jedi just had a feeling.

I have never heard of anything that appears to be scientific Force research.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

They know a high level of certain organelles tend to mean a high force potential, but we don't know how they know it. For all we know it was discovered by chance when someone looked at Jedi medical charts, or maybe a Jedi just had a feeling.

I have never heard of anything that appears to be scientific Force research.

I find it hard to believe that such a well known and documented thing like the force has not been researched, just because the movies (that were about vaders story) did not show a lab or give details about in depth research done on the force does not mean it was not done over the history of the SW galaxy.

The variety of abilities, the training ect all had to be developed and done over hundreds if not thousands of years of jedi existance so to think that they did so without doing as much research as they could would be without any regard for logical reasoning.

[Mike DiCenso]

The Force was researched by Jedi scientists who could not completely explain it. At least that was according to Ben in the ANH novelization. But it makes some sense since Qui-Gon and Ben in TPM had the means to quickly look for high midi-chlorian concentrations, and Ben in ANH was able to say that the Force was an energy field that was created by all living things, and we learn in the RoTS novelization that the Jedi Temple is specifically designed to focus this energy. So they know that much at least from their research. However there still is a fair amount of ignorance, and even the concept of the will of the Force is only a metaphor for something greater as Ben tries to explain to Anakin in the RoTS novelization on page 233:

"But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth -- if any truth is ever simple -- is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery."

It's so far beyond them that they just give in to it all.
-Mike

[Lucky]

The variety of abilities, the training ect all had to be developed and done over hundreds if not thousands of years of jedi existance so to think that they did so without doing as much research as they could would be without any regard for logical reasoning.

Force powers seem to be very much natural, and instinctual.

I find it hard to believe that such a well known and documented thing like the force has not been researched, just because the movies (that were about vaders story) did not show a lab or give details about in depth research done on the force does not mean it was not done over the history of the SW galaxy.

The Force was researched by Jedi scientists who could not completely explain it. At least that was according to Ben in the ANH novelization. But it makes some sense since Qui-Gon and Ben in TPM had the means to quickly look for high midi-chlorian concentrations, and Ben in ANH was able to say that the Force was an energy field that was created by all living things, and we learn in the RoTS novelization that the Jedi Temple is specifically designed to focus this energy. So they know that much at least from their research. However there still is a fair amount of ignorance, and even the concept of the will of the Force is only a metaphor for something greater as Ben tries to explain to Anakin in the RoTS novelization on page 233:

"But you must understand that not even the Jedi know all there is to be known about the Force; no mortal mind can. We speak of the will of the Force as someone ignorant of gravity might say it is the will of a river to flow to the ocean: it is a metaphor that describes our ignorance. The simple truth -- if any truth is ever simple -- is that we do not truly know what the will of the Force may be. We can never know. It is so far beyond our limited understanding that we can only surrender to its mystery."

It's so far beyond them that they just give in to it all.
-Mike

Believe it or not I do read the EU. I don't care for most of it, but I do read it.

The Force research I see Jedi doing in the EU seems to be martial arts training, and meditation. Where are the Jedi artifacts beside holocrons and light sabers? Didn't the Jedi ever think to make amplifiers, or something like that?

[Praeothmin]

Lucky, I put the word in quotes because it doesn't matter what you call them, the fact of the matter is they know more about it than we do.
Also, as Kor and Mike showed, they did indeed reseach the Force thoroughly if they discovered that Midichlorian concentration is an excellent indicator of Force potential...

No, they don't know all there is to know about it, but they do know much about it indeed, so their word does hold some value when it comes to quantifying the Force...

[Lucky]

Lucky, I put the word in quotes because it doesn't matter what you call them, the fact of the matter is they know more about it than we do.
Also, as Kor and Mike showed, they did indeed reseach the Force thoroughly if they discovered that Midichlorian concentration is an excellent indicator of Force potential...

No, they don't know all there is to know about it, but they do know much about it indeed, so their word does hold some value when it comes to quantifying the Force...

So in all of the vast EU there has never been a story about force research?

At least most of what we see could be discovered by chance.

[Praeothmin]

Whether it was discovered by chance or not, the fact remains it is known, so that means they do have certain knowledge of the Force, and do know more about it than any other person in the SW universe...