Star wars vs star trek......what the hell

[KirkSkyWalker]

Just how would you propose going about doing that since we have no way to directly measure this fictional phenomena? Unlike the neutronic wavefront storm of VOY's "Fair Haven", we have no statements for even the energy gradient of the ion storms, much less anything else about them, except for second hand descriptions. All we know is that they are really nasty and can damage starships. So any calculations would be made using almost completely made up assumptions with little observational data to back them up.
-Mike

Which is why they can't compare an ion-canon to an ion-storm, i.e. there's no quantitative evidence, or even qualitative-- while likewise it ignores starship-speed entirely. In TESB, the Hoth-cannon visibly fires STL, and simply knocks out the ISD electrical systems. This would be some trick against an ST starship, which has FTL sensors, FTL deflector-beams and shields, FTL drive, and no electrical systems.
And we're not even talking about shields, if the main deflector-dish can sweep it out of the way easily within 300,000 km, and probably even further.

In contrast, an ion-storm is quite a bit bigger than that puny little cannon-ball of ions.

See?! This is exactly what this very post is about! I mean for god sakes, is it impossible for you to even consider the idea that maybe, just maybe, the ion cannon might affect a st ship?! And with them the idea that maybe an ion bolt would not affect a ST ship?! I mean maybe im an idiot for saying this on this kind of site, but on any other real debate site i've been on, debate tactics like this would get you thrown out.

Then it's not a real debate-site if you don't need proof of allegations, but just anything goes by simply claiming it.

[KirkSkyWalker]

I think the most generous we can be is that we simply don't know, not enough info.

So we may as well grant that an ion cannon would work on ST ships. Otherwise, why even bother to pit them against each other?

Um, because there's no PROOF that an ion-cannon would work on a ST starship?
If a ship's travelling through an ion-storm, then it can't very well stop all of the ions in its path, but if the ion-storm was about 100 meters spherical then I think they'd ignore it since the deflectors would avert it.

[The Dude]

*sigh* Thats not the point.

[Mike DiCenso]

Okay, most of the people here are in agreement that an ion cannon would damage an ST ship, however it would not affect it in the way it is intended to because of the differences between SW and ST power generation and distribution systems. That is the ion cannon in SW is intended to disable a ship's shields and power systems to allow the turbolasers to destroy it, or conversely allow for boarding and capture. That won't happen with the ST ship because it uses very little in the way of electrical power systems, even thought the shields, structure, and systems will in all likelyhood take some damage from the energy imparted from the ion cannon.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Nor do we have any evidence that it doesn't...

Proving a negative. You're making the comparison, you prove it.
Likewise, it's ludicrous to compare a little ion-burst with traveling through a level 8 ion-storm, which hit Voyager at 33,000 kph; again you're comparing squirt-guns and tsunami.

Finally, STL ion-canons won't harm FTL ships; and yes, starships can fire while at warp, no matter how many times you repeat otherwise.

I have shown:
A-Ion storms in ST threaten ships, even those that can take Capital ship weapons hits (the Delta Flyer) and even Capital ships;
B-Ion storms in SW threaten ships, even Capital ships;
C-SW Ion cannons can damage a Capital ship.
Again, while we do not know the actual power of the Ion cannon, facts are that ST ships are not, in any way, immune to damage from Ions...
Since actual calculated fire power is similar in both universes (with a slight advantage to ST IMO), we may also postulate that Ion Cannons could indeed be a threat to ST ships.

You postulate:

In TESB, the Hoth-cannon visibly fires STL, and simply knocks out the ISD electrical systems. This would be some trick against an ST starship, which has FTL sensors, FTL deflector-beams and shields, FTL drive, and no electrical systems.
And we're not even talking about shields, if the main deflector-dish can sweep it out of the way easily within 300,000 km, and probably even further.

The FTL sensors are manned by incredibly STL humanoids, so reaction time isn't good enough to evade an Ion Bolt.
Your 33 000kph, in case you can't calculate, turns out to be 9kps.
The TESB Ion Bolt travelled thousands of km in less than 2 seconds, which makes it at least 500kps in speed, way faster than an Ion Storm.
The deflectors were made to deflect stray particles, not dense plasmoids of Ions.

Also, about the "no electrical power in ST ships"?
Computers, replicators, Padds, and touchscreens are all electrical in nature.
While the basic power generation of a Starship isn't a Hydro-electric dam, the equipment still requires electricity to work, so while the main power generation would not be affected much by an Ion bolt, all the control cards and power relay controllers would.
Even on a starship with Bio-neural gel packs, they require electrical impulses to carry information...
Ion storms are Magnetic Storms, in essence, and since electrical current creates a magnetic field, anything that affects the magnetic forces will affect an electrical field as well...

Then it's not a real debate-site if you don't need proof of allegations, but just anything goes by simply claiming it.

Well, we are still waiting for your proof that a ST ship has no electrical systems...
Or that the deflectors that cannot even take care of a light concentration of Ions found in storms could take care of the high concentration of Ions in a plasmoid bolt....

And if the deflectors did indeed deflect all the Ions in a bolt 100 meters wide, then how could it not deflect the small concentration of Ions found in a storm?
Since the concentration is less, the Ions are travelling slower towards the ship than in an Ion bolt, then the FTL deflector should have no trouble at all with these pesky Ions from the storm...

And remember your umbrella example?
If you orient it properly, an umbrella will protect just as much, if not better, from the rain then from a super soaker, you will simply feel the super soaker impact more because of its greater water density...
Since ST ships are not immune to the "rain" in Ion Storms, there's no reason they'll be immune to the "super soaker" bolts...

[Praeothmin]

Okay, most of the people here are in agreement that an ion cannon would damage an ST ship, however it would not affect it in the way it is intended to because of the differences between SW and ST power generation and distribution systems. That is the ion cannon in SW is intended to disable a ship's shields and power systems to allow the turbolasers to destroy it, or conversely allow for boarding and capture. That won't happen with the ST ship because it uses very little in the way of electrical power systems, even thought the shields, structure, and systems will in all likelyhood take some damage from the energy imparted from the ion cannon.
-Mike

I disagree about the "absence" of electrical systems on a ST ship.
Computer terminals still require electricity, anything that needs to transfer information, or power, needs electricity, whether it's AC power or DC power, it still requires electricity...
When the crew repairs ships, they sometimes take out some circuit boards, and we see chips, capacitors, resistors on these boards.
These are electronic components that require electricity to run...

[The Dude]

That brings something up that I've often wondered. They pump plasma around the ship to power things but once it gets to the station, how is that used to run equipment? Does SF have mini-steam turbines all over the place (which would be pretty damn cool BTW)?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

I disagree about the "absence" of electrical systems on a ST ship.
Computer terminals still require electricity, anything that needs to transfer information, or power, needs electricity, whether it's AC power or DC power, it still requires electricity...
When the crew repairs ships, they sometimes take out some circuit boards, and we see chips, capacitors, resistors on these boards.
These are electronic components that require electricity to run...

TNG: Symbiosis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewl0FDGzKw8

The first 2 or 3 minutes pretty much support your points and that the ship is and can be adversly effected...........although it took a sun with exceptional bursts to effect them while they were at close range and considering magnetar's ect MUST have been studied in the past id say the power from this sun must be exceptional.

[Praeothmin]

In "The Cage", we also have electrical components...

[The Dude]

There was an electrical fire in Where No Man Has Gone Before, the same panel they later replace with something they snagged from Delta Vega.

[Cocytus]

Where did people get the idea Star Trek ships don't use electricity? What else would they use for power? In "Disaster," after the E-D strikes a quantum filament, Riker and Data are crawling through the Jeffries Tubes to reach Engineering and encounter and electrical arc of "half a million amps," according to Riker. We don't know the voltage requirements of Trek equipment, so the figure isn't useful for power calculation, but amperage is the international unit of measurement for electrical current.

Star Trek ships use electricity.

The primary difference is the method of distribution, namely EPS, or electroplasma conduits. Whereas nowadays we use metal wire to transfer electricity, Star Trek ships use electrically conductive gases (plasma).

Edit: and thanks for the evidence submitted by above posters. I'm slow on the "submit button" :)

[The Dude]

Maybe most people don't know that plasma conducts. I didn't.

Personally I prefer my steam idea. ;)

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

That brings something up that I've often wondered. They pump plasma around the ship to power things but once it gets to the station, how is that used to run equipment? Does SF have mini-steam turbines all over the place (which would be pretty damn cool BTW)?

Maybe they just have a technobabble way to transform the energy in the plasma into electrical energy, it would certainly explain how they can power any system from any system and how easilt they redirect stuff ect ect.

I seem to remember them being able to transform the antimatter waste/radiation from the warp engines into powering stuff around the ship, it was in a voyager episode with the Malon i think.

[Praeothmin]

It's also a question of "How much power do we need, and what available technology do we have to send that power to the appropriate systems?"...

Copper wires will not help when dealing with Shields or Warp or Weapons, but plasma would...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Maybe most people don't know that plasma conducts. I didn't.

Personally I prefer my steam idea. ;)

I am still a little fuzzy on what it is in the first place, i read Wikipedia about it but im still not getting it to be honest but then i do not exactly understand the things its made of...or the things they are made of ect ect LOL.