List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

[Praeothmin]

Actually, I was thinking of using LFL's canon policy where everything from lower canon contradicting higher canon is ignored, and trying to tie in discrepencies between the novels and the movies (since the novel for ANH was written with GL, so any contradictions are GL contradicting himself)...

[Lucky]

Actually, I was thinking of using LFL's canon policy where everything from lower canon contradicting higher canon is ignored, and trying to tie in discrepencies between the novels and the movies (since the novel for ANH was written with GL, so any contradictions are GL contradicting himself)...

And newer releases of the movies trump older release. Unless the novels get up dated with the movies then they are very old releases of the movies.

[Praeothmin]

Yup, new pushes old down a level.
I would call the old movies "sub G-canon"... :)

[Mith]

Got someething new.

Inferno pg189-191

"That won't be necessary, Commander,: Caedus said. "The planet is already within range of the Anamin Solo's long-range turbolasers, is it not?"
Twizzl's bushy brows dropped so low that they nearly covered his eyes. "Of course, but the Kashyyyk fleet is--"
"Unimportant." Caedus faced Twizzl, presenting his back to Ben again. If the order he was about to give did not prompt his cousin to attack, then nothing would. "Have the long-range batteries open fire."
Twizzl's face went slack with confusion. "On the Owools?"
"On the planet." As Cadeus spoke, he was careful to keep his hand away from his lightsaber. He wnted to give his cousin every chance to attack; if Ben did not strike soon, he would have to be eliminated as unworthy. "Have them direct their fire to the same target area; the objective is to create a firestorm."
Caedus's command was greeted by utter silence, and he could feel the Force reverberating with the shock of the officers and crew who had overhead the command. Only Ben failed to seem surprised--though perhaps it was because he was still hiding his presence from the Force. Jacen continued to face Twizzl, giving the youth plenty of time to strike.
After a couple of moments, Twizzl finally seemed able to respond, "You want to burn the wroshyrs?"
"Precisely." Caedus said. "The entire world-forest if we can."
"Twizzl's expression changed from stunned to condemnating. "But that's...that's just madness. It won't accomplish anything!"
"That's not your conclusion to reach, Commander," Caedus replied. Giving the order wasn't easy--in fact, it made him feel sick. As a child, he had both loved and respected Chewbacca, and the last thing he wanted to do was burn teh homeworld of his friend and protector. But the Wookies had brought this disaster on themsleves by betraying the Balactic Alliance. "However, just this once, I will explain myself to you."
"I'd appreciate that, Colonel." Twizzl's tone suggested that the explanation would need to be a good one, if Caedus expected him to obey. "Thank you."
"Very well. You were at the Battle of Kuat, so you know how evenly matched our militaries are."
Twizzl nodded. "The Confederation will have to break off soon," he said. "They can't match the Alliance in a war of attrition."
"And we can't afford one," Caedus countered, "We're already too weak to defend all the worlds under our protection, and the Confederation knows it. So you're wrong--they're not going to withdraw. They're going to keep fighting and hope we'll withdraw, which we can't do. It would leave a clear lane all the way to Coruscant."
"So we're in a stalemate," Ben said, disapointing Caedus by stepping toward him--not to attack, but to join the conversation. "How's burning Kashyyyk going to change that?"
Unable to hide is frustration, Caedus whirled on the boy. "Think, Ben. What do we both need to break the stalemate? What are we losing here and the Confederaiton gaining?"
Ben recoiled from the venom in Caedu's voice, but he answered quickly, "Allies."
"Correct." Caedus placed his hand on Ben's shoulder, but he was so angry he had to stop himself from drawing back and striking the youth. "And if the Confederation hopes to make an ally of the Wookies, what must they do?"
Twizzl's eyes lit with angry comprehension. "Come to Kashyyyk's defense."
"Which means they have to abandon their drive on Coruscant," Ben finished. "And burning the forests is going to provoke more of a public outrage than just capturing the Kashyyyk assault fleet. If the Confederation doesn't help the Wookies, they're going to have trouble recruiting more worlds. It'll look like they don't care about anyone bu themselves.
"Right again," Caedus said.
"But who'll want to join us?" Twizzl demanded. "Were going to look like monsters."
Caedus smiled. "Exactly, Commander. Worlds will tremble at the thought of deserting us. If we're willing to burn the Kashyyyk forest as punishment, who knows what we might do to them?"
Twizzl's mouth dropped in horror, and he stared at Caedus without saying anything.
"I have grown weary of waiting, Commander," Caedus said. "Will you relay my order now, or do I need to appoint a new commander?"
The threat was enough to shake Twizzl out of his daze. "That won't be necessary, Colonel. I see no military reason to disregard you orders--your rationale seems as sound as it does chilling.

The most important part here is this:

"On the planet." As Cadeus spoke, he was careful to keep his hand away from his lightsaber. He wnted to give his cousin every chance to attack; if Ben did not strike soon, he would have to be eliminated as unworthy. "Have them direct their fire to the same target area; the objective is to create a firestorm."

Directed fire towards the planet to create a firestorm? A 10 kiloton bomb would produce a firestorm from its destination. Yet what Jacen proposes sounds closer to the carpet bombing that the Allies performed in WWII. But one might argue that this seems...well, it seems rather vague.

Alright, let's see the actual event of the firestorm, shall we?

Pgs 192 & 193

The viewport tinting dimmed as four ribbons of brilliance flashed from the tip of the Anakin Solo's bow and streaked toward the dark ovoid of the planet's night side. A wave of shock and fear rippled through the Force from the direction of the Owool squadron, then quickly changed to confusion as the Wookies realized the attack had not been directed at them. When the turbolaser bolts burned through Kashyyyk's atmosphere and blossomed into a pinpoint of scarlet flame, confusion changed to disbelief.
The batteries flashed again, striking in the same place and enlarging the pinpoint to a flickering red speck. the disbelief changed to rage, then--as the turbolasers flashed a third time--to seething resolve. Caedus saw the Owools dip their prows toward the Anakin Solo's bow, then lost sight of them when teh turbolasers fired again.
Twizzil stepped to the holidisplay, dutifully placing himself at Caedus's side--opposite Ben--despite the fear and revulsion he was radiating into the Force.
"Assessement is estimating a forest fire half a kilometer square and growing," he reported. "I've instructed them to change the target areas every time they reach a self-perpetuating threshold."
"Well done," Caedus replied. "We don't want the Wookies undoing our hard work."
"Maybe it would be smart to target a city or two," Ben said. "That way we can keep theier fire-suppression teams busy trying to save populated areas."
Twizzl's jaw fell, and he looked past Caedus at Ben with a look of loathing and incredulity, as though he could not believe the thoughts that sprouted in teenage minds.
"Excellent idea, Lieutenant," Caedus turned to Twizzl, "Pass it along to fire control, Commander."

So, by the fourth strike from the long-range tubolasers (it says four beams I believe, for a total of 16), they've created a firestorm half a square kilometer.

For those of you who are unaware what they are:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Long-range_turbolaser

Long-range turbolasers had a significantly longer effective range and were far more powerful than typical ones, allowing ships equipped with them to engage enemy craft from a distance at which the enemy could not respond, though at the expense of even greater power drain; even when mounted on an Imperial II-class Star Destroyer, the drain was quite noticeable.

Needless to say, the firepower show in Clone Wars doesn't seem too far off.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Sounds like the bombardment of Yavin IV.
One could say that Caedus didn't want to destroy the planet too fast, in order to force the Alliance's enemies into spending as many forces as possible into a rescue mission of planetary proportions.
On the other hand, this bit...

After a couple of moments, Twizzl finally seemed able to respond, "You want to burn the wroshyrs?"
"Precisely." Caedus said. "The entire world-forest if we can."

... seems to imply that Caedus wanted to cause as much destruction as possible, and was actually limited in what he could do with his ship (the "if we can" part).
I guess the part about the fires being self sustainable means they'd be too important for the Wookiees to extinguish.
Now, the area of destruction was half a kilometer square (and not half a square kilometer). That's 500 x 500 m. I guess the shape is due to the four bolts not hitting the same spot, but more like forming a square.
I don't know where to go with this, but if we say that there were four fireballs 250 m wide each, at ground contact, based on Wong's calculator, the yield might be around 80 kilotons per bolt, and it's nothing sure since the way of delivery of energy and the reaction could make things different : if the bolt mainly was thermal energy, you'd get a big fireball. On the other, a reaction that's slower than a kiloton nuke would make the blast weaker, which is kinda good I guess if you want to start fires rather than level stuff.
And on the other hand, it seems that the fireballs could be seen form space, so we would want those to be in the kiloton range, and if possible something along the lanes of Hiroshima levels, minus the blasts.

[Mith]

Sounds like the bombardment of Yavin IV.
One could say that Caedus didn't want to destroy the planet too fast, in order to force the Alliance's enemies into spending as many forces as possible into a rescue mission of planetary proportions.
On the other hand, this bit...

After a couple of moments, Twizzl finally seemed able to respond, "You want to burn the wroshyrs?"
"Precisely." Caedus said. "The entire world-forest if we can."

... seems to imply that Caedus wanted to cause as much destruction as possible, and was actually limited in what he could do with his ship (the "if we can" part).
I guess the part about the fires being self sustainable means they'd be too important for the Wookiees to extinguish.
Now, the area of destruction was half a kilometer square (and not half a square kilometer). That's 500 x 500 m. I guess the shape is due to the four bolts not hitting the same spot, but more like forming a square.
I don't know where to go with this, but if we say that there were four fireballs 250 m wide each, at ground contact, based on Wong's calculator, the yield might be around 80 kilotons per bolt, and it's nothing sure since the way of delivery of energy and the reaction could make things different : if the bolt mainly was thermal energy, you'd get a big fireball. On the other, a reaction that's slower than a kiloton nuke would make the blast weaker, which is kinda good I guess if you want to start fires rather than level stuff.
And on the other hand, it seems that the fireballs could be seen form space, so we would want those to be in the kiloton range, and if possible something along the lanes of Hiroshima levels, minus the blasts.

1) Damn, I can't believe I made that mistake. So it has a width and height of one km (in terms of a two dimensional image), correct?

2) I doubt they were literally well drawn squares. That was probably a more or less shape of the firestorm, say if you had fired four shots into a square-like pattern.

3) It's still not all that impressive.

I use this for my source of firestorms:

http://www.nucleardarkness.org/nuclear/ ... simulator/

A one kiloton nuclear warhead will create certain mass firestorms within a radius of .48 kilometers. It's entire diameter would be just under 1 kilometer, with probable mass fires being easily one kilometer. A one kiloton bomb would be enough to create the firestorm that according to them, took four shots from a four barreled turbolaser that's supposedly the strongest thing on the open market.

We're in reality, looking at something that's probably a fraction of the yield.

You see part of the problem I'm having, yes? And the RotS book doesn't exactly dig us out because the author may not be speaking literally and it's a rather vague use of the term. I suppose if we really, really wanted to logically fix this, we could say that the weapon's firepower quickly wanes and it's only the most powerful weapon up close...but still.

And again, I would like to point out to the critical part that their intention was to try and create a firestorm. There is not 'try' with a nuclear-level weapon like that. There just is. It's possible the may have been trying to overlap a bit...but it still limits us to one kiloton of firepower at best. At worst, we're in the hundreds of tons.

[Mr. Oragahn]

1. Seems so. That said, the wording isn't stellar. One could even understand as being the perimeter of a square that's about half a kilometer. So each side of the square would be about 125 meters wide.
On the other hand, we can get examples of kilometer square meant as x square kilometers:
Here, one guy asks "What Toronto's area kilometer square?" and someone else replies "630 km²".
But you don't get many results for "kilometer square" in Google. About 44,500.
But then, what about a "meter square"?
Here's a reply:

A meter square (also known as square meter) is a standard unit for measuring area of the object.

So we can go for 0.5 km². Which is 500,000 m².
For a square, it means one side is 707 meters wide.
For a circle, it's a radius of 400 meters (0.4 km).

2. That's what I was saying. The square shape is due to the cannon's tube positions.

3. If we use the radius of 400 meters for assured fires, we get less than 1 KT. If the TL is more thermal than a nuke, then TL bolt's yield would even be a tad lower, because more energy goes into burning wood than for a nuke, there's less blast to extinguish fires created at a distance by the initial burst of heat and any thermal energy from the fireball.

That said the yields are stupidly small.

One way to understand the area figure is as a ring of fire, (an annulus in other words) that is, an area between the untouched forest and the blast zone were trees have been blown and everything's flattened, covered in dust, with some large crater somewhere in the middle of that ground zero area.

But how do we get a figure? Well, a generous one will be obtained by estimating that the ring is one meter thick (the distance between the smaller radius and the larger radius), which should give us the largest radius possible. We could get an even larger radius by estimating a coronal width of 1 cm, but that's silly.

I get an inner radius of 79,577 meters, and an outer radius of 79,578 meters.
As a higher end, this would return a value in the low megatons. Perhaps two digits, if we push it really hard.
It would be good to know how the radius for the certain fires is calculated.

If we pick a middle value, since we'd be in the low megatons on the higher end, and in the high gigajoule on the lower one, I'd say mid kilotons would be about right. Again, fitting with the couple of multiples of Hiroshima levels, necessary to be seen from space, but not too big as to be seen as anything else by as pinpoints on the dark side of the planet.

Now, the megaton figure is obviously a complete stretch. If I allow a ring-width of two meters for the annulus, the figure immediately doubles, and the radius drops down to 39.78 km. Etc.
Of course, killing the fires from a single ring of fire that's 1 meter thick but which runs around a ~80 km long ring is going to be quite tough.

Nonetheless, that's another ICS-killer.

May I ask how you learned about it?

[Mith]

Now, the megaton figure is obviously a complete stretch. If I allow a ring-width of two meters for the annulus, the figure immediately doubles, and the radius drops down to 39.78 km. Etc.
Of course, killing the fires from a single ring of fire that's 1 meter thick but which runs around a ~80 km long ring is going to be quite tough.

Nonetheless, that's another ICS-killer.-

Well, there may be way to solve this. Let's consider some facts:

After a certain distance, turbolaser bolts will break apart, exploding in air or space without ryhm or reason. This if I recall, is suggested due to limitations of a containment for the plamsa.

Long Range Turbolasers are considered to be superior in firepower and range--immensly so. Therefore, if we assume that perhaps there was a breakthrough in plasma containment, then it would mean that the bolt would still be incredibly powerful just from the perspective of containment, let alone increased firepower.

This allows us then to assume that the LRTLs here weren't low yield because of lack of firepower, but due to failure of the containment field to contain the plasma and due to the Anakin Solo's range, they were limited in what they could do.

May I ask how you learned about it?

[/quote]

Read the book.

It was meh, all things considered. The space battles were fairly interesting, but the politics and even the reasoning were entirely bullshit. Jacen and his general friend basically hi-jack the Alliance--which is sorta some General declaring martial law for little more than shits and giggles and kicking the entire democratic process to the curb.

Then to have him commit attemptive genocide for the sake of luring his enemies in and even after a horrible defeat, still keep his job.

His reason for basically trying to make himself a second Palpatine is because he wants his bastard daughter to grow up in a safe galaxy. Which is just stupid, given how recent the Galactic Civil War was.

Notiably, the fleets were in the low hundreds, not the thousands or hundreds of thousands and these were supposedly major engagements within a civil war.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Is the degradation over distance supposed to fit with the whole EU, or just explain that particular event, even if it couldn't stand on its own against the rest of the EU?
Because I'm sure that bolts which can't even maintain that much firepower wouldn't be able to threaten underwater targets. That would be a problem for the BDZ or the attack on the Coral Vanda (well, more like threatening barrages, but the bolts went down underwater nonetheless).

[Mith]

Is the degradation over distance supposed to fit with the whole EU, or just explain that particular event, even if it couldn't stand on its own against the rest of the EU?
Because I'm sure that bolts which can't even maintain that much firepower wouldn't be able to threaten underwater targets. That would be a problem for the BDZ or the attack on the Coral Vanda (well, more like threatening barrages, but the bolts went down underwater nonetheless).

This paticular event. I'm assuming a farther reach than just over the planet, probably father than Earth's moon would be. It's a cop-out, but it might help explain it for higher numbers.

Or we just consider it an outlier...

[User1601]

Is the degradation over distance supposed to fit with the whole EU, or just explain that particular event, even if it couldn't stand on its own against the rest of the EU?
Because I'm sure that bolts which can't even maintain that much firepower wouldn't be able to threaten underwater targets. That would be a problem for the BDZ or the attack on the Coral Vanda (well, more like threatening barrages, but the bolts went down underwater nonetheless).

This paticular event. I'm assuming a farther reach than just over the planet, probably father than Earth's moon would be. It's a cop-out, but it might help explain it for higher numbers.

Or we just consider it an outlier...

Is there any more continuity between the various bits of the EU itself, than with the G-Canon, with which there's none at all? It seems that aside from the Holocron, which simply prevents re-use of names,, writers just make things up as they please.

An example is Galen Marek from "The Force Unleashed," who literally pullls a Star Destroyer down from the sky using the Force. If Yoda could barely lift an X-wing, then this puts a damper on the canonicity of the "size doesn't matter" wank.

So they can basically say anything without regard to continuity-- another reason why it's a good idea to maintain that what happens in the EU, STAYS in the EU.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Is the degradation over distance supposed to fit with the whole EU, or just explain that particular event, even if it couldn't stand on its own against the rest of the EU?
Because I'm sure that bolts which can't even maintain that much firepower wouldn't be able to threaten underwater targets. That would be a problem for the BDZ or the attack on the Coral Vanda (well, more like threatening barrages, but the bolts went down underwater nonetheless).

This paticular event. I'm assuming a farther reach than just over the planet, probably father than Earth's moon would be. It's a cop-out, but it might help explain it for higher numbers.

Or we just consider it an outlier...

Is there any more continuity between the various bits of the EU itself, than with the G-Canon, with which there's none at all? It seems that aside from the Holocron, which simply prevents re-use of names,, writers just make things up as they please.

An example is Galen Marek from "The Force Unleashed," who literally pullls a Star Destroyer down from the sky using the Force. If Yoda could barely lift an X-wing, then this puts a damper on the canonicity of the "size doesn't matter" wank.

So they can basically say anything without regard to continuity-- another reason why it's a good idea to maintain that what happens in the EU, STAYS in the EU.

GL himself had a close watch on TFU, so ask him why he's not consistent with the stuff he put in his own movies. Now let's not derail this thread.

[Picard]

That's beacouse EU has nothing to do with canon - it's separate, non-canon universe, and as such does not have to be consistent with primary universe.

[User1601]

That's beacouse EU has nothing to do with canon - it's separate, non-canon universe, and as such does not have to be consistent with primary universe.

Not to mention that there are HUNDREDS of SW books by dozens of different authors, so it would be impossible to maintain continuity with them even if Lucas had a mind to do so.

Of course the Warsies are in pathological denial of this undeniable fact, and so they cling blindly to EU completism, and their obtuse "contradiction" theory; but hey, what's a maniacal cult without a little kool-aid or bomb-throwing? Either way, there's 72 virgins involved! :-D

[Mr. Oragahn]

That's beacouse EU has nothing to do with canon - it's separate, non-canon universe, and as such does not have to be consistent with primary universe.

You perfectly know the EU itself tries its best to be consistent with the higher material, so from the EU's position it has to be.
Now, as I said, let's not derail this any further. If you want to continue this -although I wouldn't see any point to this considering the basic fact put forth- let's do so in another thread.