I challenge darkstar to a debate

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by User1601 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:45 pm

2046 wrote:Dude, the debate ended with my last post. I thought you weren't interested anymore . . . now you're trying to extend it?

I'll respond to your last post for fun and profit, but the debate's over.
If I may:

Starlog Magazine's Official Technical Journal of the Imperial Forces, Volume #2, published by Lucasfilm Ltd. in 1994, says that the DS is 120km in diameter, and its fuel is" compressed stellar hydrogen." and that the Death Star Reactor Core contains only a "solar ionization reactor."

From Page 38:

"At the core of the Death Star was an immense, cavernous housing for the battle station's power generator matrix. A fusion reactor of increditle proportions, fed by steller fuel bottles lining its periphery, produced the raw energy demanded by the Death Star's superlaser and hyperdrive systems."

This overrules later publications, or those by other publishers.

Accordingly, there's simply no way to get enough hydrogen to accelerate the planet's mass to escape-velocity of 11km/s, which requires 1.1E+4J/kg, * 6E+24kg = ~ 7E+28J.

Likewise a "hypermatter mass-energy conversion beam" is impossible for similar reasons: i.e. M-E is an endothermic process, and therefore such a beam would cost more energy than it would yield.

Likewise, a DET weapon-- or even an anti-matter beam-- would vaporize the planet on the side of the beam, while blasting the remainder of the planet out of the solar system from the other side. (Meanwhile, an E+38J reaction is enough energy to vaporize the planet 10,000 times over).

However that doesn't happen; but rather, the planet explodes from the inside out, transforming a planet-sized mass of mostly molten rock, into field of solid asteroids called "The Alderaan Graveyard;" the falcon runs into these asteroids when it comes out of hyperspace where Alderaan was supposed to be.

The only way to accomplish this, would be to convert the planet's thermal energy to kinetic energy, by radiating it into space; and this can be done by shortening the distance between the planet's hot mass and cold space; then, the hottest part of the planet-- i.e. the center-- will explode, while cooling it rather than heating it as the energy expands outward, like putting an egg in a microwave oven vs. a pressure-cooker: i.e. both increase the internal temperature equally, but there's no ambient pressure in the microwave to contain it.

Furthermore, the fact that the planet remains in the same area without dispersing into space, means that the explosion was no faster than escape-velocity of 11km/s-- which would permit an energy of no more than than 11kJ/kg, giving an upper-yield figure of E+29J.

Meanwhile, the viewed speed of the acceleration is far faster than this-- about .05C, or 15,000km/s (i.e. about 1400 times faster)-- which would require 6E+38J, enough to vaporize the entire planet 10,000 times over, and blast it well out of the solar-system-- unless the distance was shortened through hyperaccelerated means, and the energy came from the planet itself rather than an outside source.

This indicates a hyperspace-accelerator shortened the distance between the planet's core and the surrounding space, spreading its thermal energy over the larger area via entropy-- and the planet's mass along with it.

This likewise fits into accord with the Death Star's hyperdrive, i.e. adapting it for use as a weapon, when it's not being used to move the station; this wouldn't require a great amount of energy to destroy a planet, since it was using the planet's own thermal energy to destroy itself, while the hyperspace beam would simply serve as a catalyst via reducing the distance between the planet's core and the surrounding space, thereby reducing the insulating effect of distance between them.

This would allow the DS to destroy a planet, the same way that a trilithium warhead destroyed a star: i.e. by catalysizing the reaction, rather than injecting the energy required to cause it outright; no one would suggest, for example, that the trilithium warhead struck the star with enough energy to fuse its hydrogen and cause a supernova; but that's essentially the equivalent of what Warsies are claiming with the DS destroying a planet!

So to recap, we have the following:
1) the DS is powered by fusion, which can't possibly produce enough power to blow up a planet;
2) the planet explodes with no more than E+29J (escape velocity), but no less than E+28J;
3) the mostly-liquid planet solidifies rather than vaporizes, from the explosion;
4) the planet appears to explode much faster than possible for where its pieces end up; and
5) the DS already has a hyperaccelerator large enough to move itself across the galaxy.

All this points to a hyperspace-catalytic process, and denies any other sort of beam-- particularly since the empire doesn't even have a bomb able to destroy a planet; and it's ridiculous to say that the empire can manage a controlled reaction which can produce that much power, but not an uncontrolled one via a bomb-- indeed, this would be like saying that we can build a fusion-generator that produces 20MT of energy at once, but not a 20MT H-bomb! Ridiculous.

In conclusion, the DS blows up planets by entropy (i.e. the law that says that heat always flows to a cooler area), through
1) shortening the distance to the space around it, thereby
2) increasing the inverse-square law with regard to the amount of heat radiated heat into space by about 1400 times, and thereby
3) spreading a large amount of thermal energy in a small area, into a small amount of energy in a large area, which
4) simply converts the planet's thermal energy to potential energy, moving high-temperature rock at a low-point, to low temperature rock at a high point-- just like a car burning gasoline to drive uphill.

Essentially, this simply reverses the process by which the planet was originally formed from colliding asteroids to form a pool of molten rock at the bottom of a gravity-well-- via separating the planet into a field of frozen (i.e. reducing the planet's thermal energy) asteroids at a distance from that well (i.e. converting that thermal energy to potential energy)

There's really no other way to explain it.

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:58 pm

since it's over and the winners clear I'll just add to this SWSt bitching about a lack of nuclear winter as proof of low trek fire power yields is absolutely stupid and baseless these are the same people who a year prior resurrected a dead star, and some years prior had some random crazy scientist with a little help from exile klingons cook up star busters..and prior to this created an unstable planet from a nebula a dead bad ass and a broken ship

seriously seriously baseless to try and claim the lack of nuclear winter is anything other than typical rapid response for a society that advanced

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by User1601 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:33 am

Admiral Breetai wrote:since it's over and the winners clear I'll just add to this SWSt bitching about a lack of nuclear winter as proof of low trek fire power yields
Speaking of "winter," that's a SNOW JOB if I ever heard one!

Especially since nuclear winter is caused by thermal weapons-- and we've seens that Trek's weapons don't work that way; likewise, Trek-tech can also control the weather.

Clearly, it's another warsie red herring... i.e. a fish-story about "the big one that got away--" but that they ALSO try to mount on the wall and brag about!

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:26 pm

2046 wrote:Dude, the debate ended with my last post. I thought you weren't interested anymore . . . now you're trying to extend it?

I'll respond to your last post for fun and profit, but the debate's over.
Seriously? Oh, I'm sorry, I did not pay attention to when the debate is supposed to end.

That being said, I still have a basic progression to my argument:

1. The speed in which the Death Star moved on its way to Yavin 4 combined with some estimates as to its mass give it an energy requirement for such a movement of about e30 joules. Scaling down to a star destroyer, that's about e24 joules. Since the estimates to the Death Star's mass are rough, there is some leeway...but given the disparity between e24 joules and the highest credible Enterprise figure, e19 joules, a magnitude of 5, any margin of error merely effects how much Star Wars is more powerful by, not the question of if they are more powerful.

2. Said energy is being used for something. What? Something. What would a star destroyer be diverting most of its power to? Combat. It's a warship, and there simply aren't many things that it could be using e24 joules for otherwise. Cooking dinner does not take e24 joules, nor does life support, sensors, etc. Can you think of any other ways in which e24 joules could be used other than for combat?


3. Therefore, we can conclude that a significant portion of the e24 joules is being used for combat. A star destroyer is a warship, right? So even if only 10% of such energy is being used for weapons and shields; which would beg the question as to what the 90% is being used for, that's enough to overwhelm any Federation ship in a single salvo. This is true even if we assume that, for some reason, only 1% of the energy is being used for weapons and shields and that the rest is being used to cook dinner.

4. And then there are the other areas in which Star Wars has a massive advantage over Star Trek. Logistics, sheer size, ground combat, industrial capability, etc. Hyperdrive is faster than warp drive. Fact. Not just a little faster, but faster by a similar degree in which an f22 is faster than a person on a casual walk. As for size and industry, Star Wars is at least thousands of times larger, and taking on a state thousands of times larger than yours in a conventional war is effectively suicidal barring some massive technological advantage. The allies were able to defeat the axis in a large part because they had a 2-3x production edge...imagine a 1000+x production edge! That's a disparity unheard of in conventional warfare.

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by User1601 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:37 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
2046 wrote:Dude, the debate ended with my last post. I thought you weren't interested anymore . . . now you're trying to extend it?

I'll respond to your last post for fun and profit, but the debate's over.
Seriously? Oh, I'm sorry, I did not pay attention to when the debate is supposed to end.

That being said, I still have a basic progression to my argument:

1. The speed in which the Death Star moved on its way to Yavin 4 combined with some estimates as to its mass give it an energy requirement for such a movement of about e30 joules.
Um.... NO.
It was orbiting Yavin at about 2k/s (assuming that Yavin was the size of Jupiter). Even accelerating the EARTH to that speed, would only require 1.2e+28 joules.

While the DS could destoy a planet, we have no reason to believe it could MOVE one.
Likewise, it stands to reason that the DS was a LOT less massive then an Earth-sized planet. Finally, the DS could have used Yavin's inertia and gravity-well to boost its speed, rather than doing so on its own steam.

Second: if the Empire could "scale down" the DS's output to an ISD, and the DS was just a big DET ray-gun, there would be no POINT of concentrating all that firepower in one big tub that could get hulled in one shot.
Rather, it would make infinitely more sense (as in SANE) to just "scale it down" onto a number of ISD's-- just like if you could scale down nukes into smaller bombs of equal total mass and output.

However it just doesn't work that way; i.e. there's no reason to believe that the SD is a DET weapon-- and every reason to believe it's not. Likewise, they couldn't simply split up its ability into a larger number of smaller-sized ships; they would if they could, and they didn't-- therefore logically they COULDN'T make it any smaller than the DS.

Further points why the DS is not a DET weapon:

1. It runs on fusion, and there couldn't be enough hydrogen in it to provide that much power.
2. The planet exploded from the inside out, and DET weapons don't do that.
3. It exploded WAY too fast to leave any bit of the planet non-vaporized and blasted out of the solar system, and yet it simply turned the planet into an asteroid-field in the same orbit.

This indicates that the energy came from the planet itself-- and that the planet's mass was hyper-accelerated for a short distance-- then returned to normal escape-velocity, to assume orbit around the sun.
Last edited by User1601 on Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:46 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Seriously? Oh, I'm sorry, I did not pay attention to when the debate is supposed to end.

That being said, I still have a basic progression to my argument:
yeah I noticed that you have an issue where you challenge a person to a debate then out of your own speculation make a troll OP and then hound them even after they've decided your not worth it..as you did to me and now to DS it seems

oh and don't get cute and necro our thread not only did you get your stuff wrecked but I never even officially agreed to consent to an actual debate..so as far as I'm concerned not only are we done..but it was the equivalent of Tyson vs Larry Holmes

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: 4. And then there are the other areas in which Star Wars has a massive advantage over Star Trek. Logistics, sheer size, ground combat, industrial capability, etc. Hyperdrive is faster than warp drive. Fact. Not just a little faster, but faster by a similar degree in which an f22 is faster than a person on a casual walk. As for size and industry, Star Wars is at least thousands of times larger, and taking on a state thousands of times larger than yours in a conventional war is effectively suicidal barring some massive technological advantage. The allies were able to defeat the axis in a large part because they had a 2-3x production edge...imagine a 1000+x production edge! That's a disparity unheard of in conventional warfare.
I'll address this you have never managed to prove anything at all in regards to industry in any thread you have ever operated at...not only does the movie universe not support your speculation..but we have seen the outright superiority of trek industry..which allows it to do things from replicating entire hull sections inside of several moments..to...resurrecting dead stars from loosing a couple dozen vessels being a major loss to hurling thousands of ships into a meet grinder..

where as the movies show..small fleets for star wars by comparison and the tv shows..that five million clones would financially bankrupt them...the rest of the EU not only is completely invalid due to being inconsistent..but its also completely irrelevant..by DS own standards in this thread thus you claiming other wise.is completely retarded


your conclusions are wrong about the industry the movies rule squarely against your assumptions the TV show goes father into debunking it..and what has been shown through four decades of TV for trek shows an industrial capacity that rapes star wars in a horrific fashion

in conclusion you are absolutely now and for ever more wrong on all your assertions regarding SWU industrial superiority over trek and when it comes time to play with the big boys in the game of who's got bigger and better industry to simply put it..based on your complete failure to objectively prove it in multiple threads the United Federation of planets...so completely dwarfs the GE in industry that it's cruel and unusual punishment to put them up against each other
SpaceWizard wrote:
Um.... NO.
It was orbiting Yavin at about 2k/s (assuming that Yavin was the size of Jupiter). Even accelerating the EARTH to that speed, would only require 1.2e+28 joules.

While the DS could destoy a planet, we have no reason to believe it could MOVE one.
Likewise, it stands to reason that the DS was a LOT less massive then an Earth-sized planet. Finally, the DS could have used Yavin's inertia and gravity-well to boost its speed, rather than doing so on its own steam.

Second: if the Empire could "scale down" the DS's output to an ISD, and the DS was just a big DET ray-gun, there would be no POINT of concentrating all that firepower in one big tub that could get hulled in one shot.
Rather, it would make infinitely more sense (as in SANE) to just "scale it down" onto a number of ISD's-- just like if you could scale down nukes into smaller bombs of equal total mass and output.

However it just doesn't work that way; i.e. there's no reason to believe that the SD is a DET weapon-- and every reason to believe it's not. Likewise, they couldn't simply split up its ability into a larger number of smaller-sized ships; they would if they could, and they didn't-- therefore logically they COULDN'T make it any smaller than the DS.

Further points why the DS is not a DET weapon:

1. It runs on fusion, and there couldn't be enough hydrogen in it to provide that much power.
2. The planet exploded from the inside out, and DET weapons don't do that.
3. It exploded WAY too fast to leave any bit of the planet non-vaporized and blasted out of the solar system, and yet it simply turned the planet into an asteroid-field in the same orbit.

This indicates that the energy came from the planet itself-- and that the planet's mass was hyper-accelerated for a short distance-- then returned to normal escape-velocity, to assume orbit around the sun..
what your describing seems a bit more impressive then what the loons imply it's capable of honestly
Last edited by Admiral Breetai on Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by User1601 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:53 pm

Admiral, can you please correct the above? I did :D

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by User1601 » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:54 pm

Admiral, can you please correct the above? I did :D

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:59 pm

SpaceWizard wrote:Admiral, can you please correct the above? I did :D
ya double posted and I added all your new material, still trying to understand on what possible bases SWSt is claiming superior industry I mean the deathstar? yeah impressive feat of engineering the first one of which took decades mean while feds seem to have mass produced versions of those huge ass mushroom shapes star bases and deploy them along various sectors in fed space which seems to be a whole hella lot more impressive not to mention junking old ones and building newer huger ones to accommodate the changing sizes of ships every few decades

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by User1601 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:59 am

Admiral Breetai wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
SpaceWizard wrote:
Um.... NO.
It was orbiting Yavin at about 2k/s (assuming that Yavin was the size of Jupiter). Even accelerating the EARTH to that speed, would only require 1.2e+28 joules.

While the DS could destoy a planet, we have no reason to believe it could MOVE one.
Likewise, it stands to reason that the DS was a LOT less massive then an Earth-sized planet. Finally, the DS could have used Yavin's inertia and gravity-well to boost its speed, rather than doing so on its own steam.

Second: if the Empire could "scale down" the DS's output to an ISD, and the DS was just a big DET ray-gun, there would be no POINT of concentrating all that firepower in one big tub that could get hulled in one shot.
Rather, it would make infinitely more sense (as in SANE) to just "scale it down" onto a number of ISD's-- just like if you could scale down nukes into smaller bombs of equal total mass and output.

However it just doesn't work that way; i.e. there's no reason to believe that the SD is a DET weapon-- and every reason to believe it's not. Likewise, they couldn't simply split up its ability into a larger number of smaller-sized ships; they would if they could, and they didn't-- therefore logically they COULDN'T make it any smaller than the DS.

Further points why the DS is not a DET weapon:

1. It runs on fusion, and there couldn't be enough hydrogen in it to provide that much power.
2. The planet exploded from the inside out, and DET weapons don't do that.
3. It exploded WAY too fast to leave any bit of the planet non-vaporized and blasted out of the solar system, and yet it simply turned the planet into an asteroid-field in the same orbit.

This indicates that the energy came from the planet itself-- and that the planet's mass was hyper-accelerated for a short distance-- then returned to normal escape-velocity, to assume orbit around the sun..
what your describing seems a bit more impressive then what the loons imply it's capable of honestly
Not really; all it required was using the Death Star's hyperdrive, to shorten the distance between the planet's core and the surrounding space; then entropy would do the rest, as heat flowed to a cooler surface as per the second law of thermodynamics.

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by User1601 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:59 am

Admiral Breetai wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:
SpaceWizard wrote:
Um.... NO.
It was orbiting Yavin at about 2k/s (assuming that Yavin was the size of Jupiter). Even accelerating the EARTH to that speed, would only require 1.2e+28 joules.

While the DS could destoy a planet, we have no reason to believe it could MOVE one.
Likewise, it stands to reason that the DS was a LOT less massive then an Earth-sized planet. Finally, the DS could have used Yavin's inertia and gravity-well to boost its speed, rather than doing so on its own steam.

Second: if the Empire could "scale down" the DS's output to an ISD, and the DS was just a big DET ray-gun, there would be no POINT of concentrating all that firepower in one big tub that could get hulled in one shot.
Rather, it would make infinitely more sense (as in SANE) to just "scale it down" onto a number of ISD's-- just like if you could scale down nukes into smaller bombs of equal total mass and output.

However it just doesn't work that way; i.e. there's no reason to believe that the SD is a DET weapon-- and every reason to believe it's not. Likewise, they couldn't simply split up its ability into a larger number of smaller-sized ships; they would if they could, and they didn't-- therefore logically they COULDN'T make it any smaller than the DS.

Further points why the DS is not a DET weapon:

1. It runs on fusion, and there couldn't be enough hydrogen in it to provide that much power.
2. The planet exploded from the inside out, and DET weapons don't do that.
3. It exploded WAY too fast to leave any bit of the planet non-vaporized and blasted out of the solar system, and yet it simply turned the planet into an asteroid-field in the same orbit.

This indicates that the energy came from the planet itself-- and that the planet's mass was hyper-accelerated for a short distance-- then returned to normal escape-velocity, to assume orbit around the sun..
what your describing seems a bit more impressive then what the loons imply it's capable of honestly
Not really; all it required was using the Death Star's hyperdrive, to shorten the distance between the planet's core and the surrounding space; then entropy would do the rest, as heat flowed to a cooler surface as per the second law of thermodynamics.

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by Admiral Breetai » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:01 am

SpaceWizard wrote: Not really; all it required was using the Death Star's hyperdrive, to shorten the distance between the planet's core and the surrounding space; then entropy would do the rest, as heat flowed to a cooler surface as per the second law of thermodynamics.
so it's kinda like the Soviet Union design policy than? if you don't have the tech or the power to brute force it just make sure it's dependable and can do whats needed to be done with minimum expenditure?

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by User1601 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:09 am

Admiral Breetai wrote:
SpaceWizard wrote: Not really; all it required was using the Death Star's hyperdrive, to shorten the distance between the planet's core and the surrounding space; then entropy would do the rest, as heat flowed to a cooler surface as per the second law of thermodynamics.
so it's kinda like the Soviet Union design policy than? if you don't have the tech or the power to brute force it just make sure it's dependable and can do whats needed to be done with minimum expenditure?
More like steal existing tech, and use it a weapon of maximum terror.

I calculated that given the specific heat of all the various elements of an Earth-like planet in the same proportions, this would only require cooling the planet by just a few degrees Kelvin in order to blow it up into a similar asteroid-field "graveyard" that we see in the movies-- no problem in the near absolute-zero (zero degrees Kelvin) of space.

Meanwhile the average temperature of the planet's mass is over 2000 degrees Kelvin, and so it doesn't take much.

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by Admiral Breetai » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:27 pm

that's a cool way to put it, so they likely can't actually mass scatter a planet on brute force then huh.

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Re: I challenge darkstar to a debate

Post by User1601 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:07 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:that's a cool way to put it, so they likely can't actually mass scatter a planet on brute force then huh.
Not the way shown on screen, anyway.

The Warsies really hang themselves when they brag about how the planet exploded at .05C, since then there would be nothing left of it in the solar system.

But since there's the Alderaan Graveyard, then the planet's mass must have been hyper-accelerated-- which only happens as long as the hyperspace field is applied-- which would be no further than the Death Star.

Essentially, the planet's mass "jumped" a short distance, just like a space-ship-- i.e. it moved much faster than usual relative to normal space" but then came out of hyperspace and stopped.

However, rather than move in one direction, the DS made it jump in all directions, by simply shortening the distance to outer space; and entropy did the rest, since heat always flows to a cooler surface. In response, the sudden relative temperature-change made the planet explode.

Normally, the heat of the planet was insulated from space by distance, and the inverse-square law; and so you just get volcanoes and earthquakes etc. now and then, as the planet's heat radiates outward slowly.

But the DS's beam shortened this distance by about 1400 times-- thus increasing this radiation by a factor of 1400 squared, or about TWO MILLION TIMES; and the planet naturally exploded like an egg in a microwave oven.

Since this distance was shortened, it seemed to explode at about .05 C, but in real-space it was moving 1/1000 this speed. So once the planet exploded, its mass came to rest at a few planetary diameters away-- just like a ship comes to rest when it comes out of hyperspace or warp: i.e. it doesn't keep on going at superspeeds; since hyperdrive and warp-drive don't actually accelerate the ship in realspace-- they just shorten the distance compared to realspace.

So basically, the DS simply adapted its normal hyperdrive into a beam, and applied it to the planet and the surrounding area. This is why the DS needed to be so huge, i.e. to house a hyperdrive motivator that size.

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