The SSD and 12 ISD's mix it up in Romulan space

[Praeothmin]

If the DS was supposed to have great big engines just like an ISD localised at one point of its structure, and if it exibited the same proportionate thrust as an ISD did, it would probably collapse, but if you simply have multiple smaller thrusters, all over the structure, as Mike proposed, then the stress on the structure is diffused, and with the appropriate stuctures and force fields, structural integrity is assured, just like on ST ships when the Nacelle pylons don't immediately get ripped off when ships accelerate to great STL speeds...

As for the "Hyperspace exit speed boost", I'm not so sure it exists.
Here, notice how, at 1:01, when the Mon Cal Ships finishes exiting from Hyperspace, et moves at the same speed it was moving at when it entered in Hyperspace.
While we have the illusion of a speed boost when we see the Falcon exit, from its point of view, once we look at the ships coming out from the front, they all exit, then continue moving at the same speeds they were moving at when they entered Hyperspace.
We see the same thing when Obi-Wan follows Jango in the Geonosis orbit...
So if the DS does indeed accelerate when in Yavin's orbit after the initial exit from Hyperspace, then it was using Thrusters.
Anti-grav/repulsor lifts can get you off planets by negating the gravity to allow you to ascend, but anything that want to move forward in a gravity field while using Anti-Grav still needs engines to propel it forward.
Look at the Snow-Speeder.
Look at the speeders on Endor.
Or even Luke's speeder...

Nothing prevents the DS from using the gravity of Yavin IV with its Thrusters in order to achieve a sling-shot effect and increas its speed, but evidence shows that Thrusters are needed to move forward, even with Anti-Grav...

[User1601]

If the DS was supposed to have great big engines just like an ISD localised at one point of its structure, and if it exibited the same proportionate thrust as an ISD did, it would probably collapse, but if you simply have multiple smaller thrusters, all over the structure, as Mike proposed, then the stress on the structure is diffused, and with the appropriate stuctures and force fields, structural integrity is assured, just like on ST ships when the Nacelle pylons don't immediately get ripped off when ships accelerate to great STL speeds...

You're forgetting that the ship accelerates to STL speeds just like it goes to warp, i.e. through space-bending to create a warp-field, it's just smaller; in fact, warp-drive operates in units of impulse with regard to power-generation.
As for a million itty-bitty thrusters on the DS, that wouldn't create anywhere near enough power to move it, given the mass; likewise it would be impossible to create such an even power-output.
Finally, the purpose of the DS was to destroy planets, so it would make sense to use the target-planet's gravity-well to move the DS.

As for the "Hyperspace exit speed boost", I'm not so sure it exists.
Here, notice how, at 1:01, when the Mon Cal Ships finishes exiting from Hyperspace, et moves at the same speed it was moving at when it entered in Hyperspace.
While we have the illusion of a speed boost when we see the Falcon exit, from its point of view, once we look at the ships coming out from the front, they all exit, then continue moving at the same speeds they were moving at when they entered Hyperspace.
We see the same thing when Obi-Wan follows Jango in the Geonosis orbit...
So if the DS does indeed accelerate when in Yavin's orbit after the initial exit from Hyperspace, then it was using Thrusters.

You're ignoring the fact of different vectors of different systems. If all systems moved on the same vector, the galaxy would collapse from its own gravity!
Obviously, hyperdrive has to account for this somehow-- or else thrusters would need to do it, and we don't see that.
Rather, they emerge from hyperspace moving at almost the exact same vector as the system-planet itself.
Likewise, again, the DS couldn't possibly accelerate using thrusters; they'd be to small, given its mass.

Anti-grav/repulsor lifts can get you off planets by negating the gravity to allow you to ascend, but anything that want to move forward in a gravity field while using Anti-Grav still needs engines to propel it forward.

That's not what we see with the hover-cars, scout-bikes, sand-speeders etc. No thrusters, just motion.
Negating gravity wouldn't cause ascension, it would only stop it from falling (i.e. allow it to hover); rather, you must add energy in order to ascend.
So if you can rise with anti-grav, you'd only need to skew it in order to move in any direction. It's how all ground-based motion occurs, i.e. falling in one direction, while making up the difference by adding energy; that's why it takes energy to travel up but not down, i.e. the energy exists in the vehicle via potential energy, and travelling downhill converts it to kinetic energy.

Meanwhile thrusters would mimic air-travel, i.e. forcing particles in the opposite direction to accelerate. .

[Praeothmin]

You're forgetting that the ship accelerates to STL speeds just like it goes to warp, i.e. through space-bending to create a warp-field, it's just smaller; in fact, warp-drive operates in units of impulse with regard to power-generation.

Really?
Then you have evidence of this?
Because you see, ships in ST canonically have what are called "Structural Intergity Fields".
I'll let you guess what they are used for.
Hint: the name's a pretty good indication...

Also, in Nemesis, when the Scimitar backs aways from the E-E, we clearly see its Thrusters, and they show ejecta, akin to our modern day rocket engines.
Where's the Warp field in that?

You're ignoring the fact of different vectors of different systems. If all systems moved on the same vector, the galaxy would collapse from its own gravity!
Obviously, hyperdrive has to account for this somehow-- or else thrusters would need to do it, and we don't see that.

Why would Hyperdrive need to account for this, exactly?
Hyperdrive, as we see it in operation, resembles a wormhole, and we've never seen wormholes give "speed boosts" to exiting ships.
Look at ships exiting the Bajoran wormhole.
they don't accelerate to high speeds when exiting.
They exit, and then continue moving if their engines are on, or drift very slowly if they're not.
So basically, if the ship already has momentum, Hyperspace will not rob it of its momentum, and neither will it add to it...

Likewise, again, the DS couldn't possibly accelerate using thrusters; they'd be to small, given its mass.

Depends on their power, and since we know the DS has a very powerful reactor, they could, if they are in sufficient numbers.

That's not what we see with the hover-cars, scout-bikes, sand-speeders etc. No thrusters, just motion.

Show me.
I've provided visual evidence of such engines, while you haven't.

Negating gravity wouldn't cause ascension, it would only stop it from falling (i.e. allow it to hover); rather, you must add energy in order to ascend.

Doesn't mean you can ascend sideways...

Meanwhile thrusters would mimic air-travel, i.e. forcing particles in the opposite direction to accelerate. .

Except if you're already buoyant because of anti-grav, the energy required to accelerate sideways would be much, much less, because you do not have to counter-act the forces of gravity pulling down through forward motion...

[User1601]

You're forgetting that the ship accelerates to STL speeds just like it goes to warp, i.e. through space-bending to create a warp-field, it's just smaller; in fact, warp-drive operates in units of impulse with regard to power-generation.

Really?
Then you have evidence of this?
Because you see, ships in ST canonically have what are called "Structural Intergity Fields".
I'll let you guess what they are used for.
Hint: the name's a pretty good indication...

In "Balance of Terror," Scotty said that the Romulan's power was "simple impluse," however we don't see any rocket-engines; likewise they are capable of FTL travel, which rockets clearly can't. Indeed, it would be difficult to cloak a ship that was spraying exprended rocket-spray in the precise opposite direction.

Also, in Nemesis, when the Scimitar backs aways from the E-E, we clearly see its Thrusters, and they show ejecta, akin to our modern day rocket engines.
Where's the Warp field in that?

Those were maneuvering thrusters, they didn't move the ship very fast or far; the imparted maybe a G at most-- that won't get you to lightspeed very fast, let alone beyond it; even without relativity that would take a year at 1G

You're ignoring the fact of different vectors of different systems. If all systems moved on the same vector, the galaxy would collapse from its own gravity!
Obviously, hyperdrive has to account for this somehow-- or else thrusters would need to do it, and we don't see that.

Why would Hyperdrive need to account for this, exactly?
Hyperdrive, as we see it in operation, resembles a wormhole, and we've never seen wormholes give "speed boosts" to exiting ships.

We've never seen hyperdrive-engines access a wormhole in Star Trek, either; nor such vectors pose a problem with ships that can accelerate to .5C in seconds without thrusters. Apples and Oranges.

Look at ships exiting the Bajoran wormhole.
they don't accelerate to high speeds when exiting.
They exit, and then continue moving if their engines are on, or drift very slowly if they're not.
So basically, if the ship already has momentum, Hyperspace will not rob it of its momentum, and neither will it add to it...

Perhaps the Gamma-quadrant end of the Bajoran Wormhole has the same vector as the Alpha-end; however that's clearly not the case with planets in different star-systems.
Also, you have no idea what the Bajoran wormhole does; it can send entire fleets of ships forward of backward in time, for goodness sake.

However when the DS comes out of hyperspace, it's very close to Yavin, and moving at a precise speed to leave it in firing-range without getting sucked into the planet, and we don't see a single thruster; but you're implying that this was due to random chance, and thrusters so small that they can't be seen, despite that this defies physics for something that massive, given the square/cube law of surface-area/volume for a spheroid object.

Likewise, again, the DS couldn't possibly accelerate using thrusters; they'd be to small, given its mass.

Depends on their power, and since we know the DS has a very powerful reactor, they could, if they are in sufficient numbers.

Then they'd have to be visible, because otherwise they'd be too small. See above.

That's not what we see with the hover-cars, scout-bikes, sand-speeders etc. No thrusters, just motion.

Show me.
I've provided visual evidence of such engines, while you haven't.

Please, it's quite obvious-- Luke's Sand-speeder, the scout-bikes, and the cars on Courscant, Yoda's floating platform, the probe-droid on Hoth, the assassin-droid on Coruscant-- NONE have visible thrusters, they just float around, accelerationg horizontally at will.

Negating gravity wouldn't cause ascension, it would only stop it from falling (i.e. allow it to hover); rather, you must add energy in order to ascend.

Doesn't mean you can ascend sideways...

The SW vehicles do it just fine. Iif you can repulse the surface straight down, then you can do it skewed.

Meanwhile thrusters would mimic air-travel, i.e. forcing particles in the opposite direction to accelerate. .

Except if you're already buoyant because of anti-grav, the energy required to accelerate sideways would be much, much less, because you do not have to counter-act the forces of gravity pulling down through forward motion...

Oh, "Much, much less--" is that HALF as much as "much less?"

To be precise, the energy to accelerate is 1 joule/Kg/m/s.

You're talking about accelerating the entire mass of the DS to 2k/s, which would be impossible using invisible thrusters; however there's no reason it couldn't work using the same principle as the other vehicles which operate inside a planet's gravity-well.

[Praeothmin]

In "Balance of Terror," Scotty said that the Romulan's power was "simple impluse," however we don't see any rocket-engines; likewise they are capable of FTL travel, which rockets clearly can't. Indeed, it would be difficult to cloak a ship that was spraying exprended rocket-spray in the precise opposite direction.

And in TNG, DS9, Voyager and even ENT, we see that a ship without Warp Drive still has Impulse power and can still travel at Impulse Speeds...
And all these newer ships have glowing Impulse engines at their backs.
Tell me, if these engines have nothing to do with standard propulsion, meaning they do not eject anything in the opposite direction of where the ship is going, then why do we see them at the backs of the ships, and why do we only see the ships at fast STL speeds going in the direction opposite their engines?
Plus, In TUC, the cloaked ship was discovered because the torpedo homed in on its STL exaust...

Those were maneuvering thrusters, they didn't move the ship very fast or far; the imparted maybe a G at most-- that won't get you to lightspeed very fast, let alone beyond it; even without relativity that would take a year at 1G

They most likely are, but they do show that ST does use Newtonian means of propulsion.
And we go back to the TUC example...

We've never seen hyperdrive-engines access a wormhole in Star Trek, either; nor such vectors pose a problem with ships that can accelerate to .5C in seconds without thrusters. Apples and Oranges.

The ships accelerating to 0.5c without thrusters do it with Warp engines creating low level fields, but I've yet to see a ship in ST go to 0.5c using only Impulse engines...

Perhaps the Gamma-quadrant end of the Bajoran Wormhole has the same vector as the Alpha-end; however that's clearly not the case with planets in different star-systems.

Ok, you're grasping at straws and you have no clue how these supposed vectors would have anything to do with Hyperspace travel and exits...
Got it!

Also, you have no idea what the Bajoran wormhole does; it can send entire fleets of ships forward of backward in time, for goodness sake.

Are you sure you don't mean that the "Prophets", or wormhole aliens, are the ones who can do that?

However when the DS comes out of hyperspace, it's very close to Yavin, and moving at a precise speed to leave it in firing-range without getting sucked into the planet, and we don't see a single thruster; but you're implying that this was due to random chance, and thrusters so small that they can't be seen, despite that this defies physics for something that massive, given the square/cube law of surface-area/volume for a spheroid object.

However, according to the map in the control room, the DS accelerated after it covered only 1/20th of the planet's arc.
And since the DS was never, to my knowledge, seen from the back, how would we have seen these myriad thrusters?
We know the DS has thousands of HTLs, yet we only saw them when the rebels were near the DS, and never saw them from afar.
If the DS had thousands of such thrusters, all over its hull, all equidistant, we would not necessarily see them until they were in use.
The ones that interest us in this discussion are the ones at the back of the DS, which we coudln't possibly see in the movie...

Please, it's quite obvious-- Luke's Sand-speeder, the scout-bikes, and the cars on Courscant, Yoda's floating platform, the probe-droid on Hoth, the assassin-droid on Coruscant-- NONE have visible thrusters, they just float around, accelerationg horizontally at will.

While Yoda's chair doesn't have engines, we know he has telekinesis, and that the chair has anti-grav, so he may simply use the Force to push it forward.
The Hoth probe droid as many small apertures that could have been thrusters, and the Assassin Droid in AotC was never seen clearly from the back.
As for Luke's speeder, I've linked a picture of a similar speeder with three obvious engines, and as for the coruscant ones, they also seem to have engines...

[User1601]

In "Balance of Terror," Scotty said that the Romulan's power was "simple impluse," however we don't see any rocket-engines; likewise they are capable of FTL travel, which rockets clearly can't. Indeed, it would be difficult to cloak a ship that was spraying exprended rocket-spray in the precise opposite direction.

And in TNG, DS9, Voyager and even ENT, we see that a ship without Warp Drive still has Impulse power and can still travel at Impulse Speeds...

You don't say? Impulse speeds, from Impulse power?!!! Holy DUH, Captain Obvious!

And all these newer ships have glowing Impulse engines at their backs.

Perhaps this was discovered as more efficient than space-bending technology to accelerate, using the newer technology, since the Bussard-collectors could possibly funnel the hydrogen-molecules more efficiently; however there's no reason that a ship can move at FTL speeds via space-bending tech, but not STL; this much is obvious from the earlier impulse-engines.

Tell me, if these engines have nothing to do with standard propulsion, meaning they do not eject anything in the opposite direction of where the ship is going, then why do we see them at the backs of the ships, and why do we only see the ships at fast STL speeds going in the direction opposite their engines?
Plus, In TUC, the cloaked ship was discovered because the torpedo homed in on its STL exaust...

Obviously a design-flaw, being a Klingon prototype; however the Romulan ship in BoT clearly didn't have any such exhaust; however this was following TMP, where the Enterprise re-fit DID use Impulse-thrusters.

We've never seen hyperdrive-engines access a wormhole in Star Trek, either; nor such vectors pose a problem with ships that can accelerate to .5C in seconds without thrusters. Apples and Oranges.

The ships accelerating to 0.5c without thrusters do it with Warp engines creating low level fields, but I've yet to see a ship in ST go to 0.5c using only Impulse engines...

Watch the Enterprise leave Earth in TMP.

Perhaps the Gamma-quadrant end of the Bajoran Wormhole has the same vector as the Alpha-end; however that's clearly not the case with planets in different star-systems.

Ok, you're grasping at straws and you have no clue how these supposed vectors would have anything to do with Hyperspace travel and exits...
Got it!

You got a hole in your head, sinking to ad hominem personal attacks. However if the ship arrives at a different vector than it leaves, then something has to account for it-- unless you don't believe in Newton's law.

Also, you have no idea what the Bajoran wormhole does; it can send entire fleets of ships forward of backward in time, for goodness sake.

Are you sure you don't mean that the "Prophets", or wormhole aliens, are the ones who can do that?

I'm sure you're being fastidious.

However when the DS comes out of hyperspace, it's very close to Yavin, and moving at a precise speed to leave it in firing-range without getting sucked into the planet, and we don't see a single thruster; but you're implying that this was due to random chance, and thrusters so small that they can't be seen, despite that this defies physics for something that massive, given the square/cube law of surface-area/volume for a spheroid object.

However, according to the map in the control room, the DS accelerated after it covered only 1/20th of the planet's arc.

Oh yeah, the "final 10 second" thing... I've addressed that ridiculous argument, let's not hear it again thanks.

And since the DS was never, to my knowledge, seen from the back, how would we have seen these myriad thrusters?

The X-wings flew all around it; if the DS was tying to get to Yavin, these mysterious "thrusters" would have been blasting full-time.

We know the DS has thousands of HTLs, yet we only saw them when the rebels were near the DS, and never saw them from afar.
If the DS had thousands of such thrusters, all over its hull, all equidistant, we would not necessarily see them until they were in use.

And we didn't see them, and they would be in use, so there weren't any.

Please, it's quite obvious-- Luke's Sand-speeder, the scout-bikes, and the cars on Courscant, Yoda's floating platform, the probe-droid on Hoth, the assassin-droid on Coruscant-- NONE have visible thrusters, they just float around, accelerationg horizontally at will.

While Yoda's chair doesn't have engines, we know he has telekinesis, and that the chair has anti-grav, so he may simply use the Force to push it forward.

Hoo ha! And you accuse ME of grasping at straws!
What about Clieg Lars's hover-chair-- or Anakin's hover-bike? Wow, not even a straw.

The Hoth probe droid as many small apertures that could have been thrusters, and the Assassin Droid in AotC was never seen clearly from the back.

With no visible thrust.

As for Luke's speeder, I've linked a picture of a similar speeder with three obvious engines, and as for the coruscant ones, they also seem to have engines...

Not thrust-engines, nor do they produce any visible thrust of any kind-- not even jetwash.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass"

vs

"Sir, our ship will not survive for longer than ten minutes in this distance to a pulsar, in which the EM radiation bombarding our shields will accumulate to a fatal 0.5 kilotons, almost a twentieth of the energy released in the first used fission bomb.

[Admiral Breetai]

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass"
.

how about you cite some god damn film evidence as opposed to bullshit from a non canon source

[Picard]

"Have you ever seen what a Star Destroyer can do to the surface of an unshielded planet? Stones run like water and sand turns to glass"

vs

"Sir, our ship will not survive for longer than ten minutes in this distance to a pulsar,<bull**** wong assumption> in which the EM radiation bombarding our shields will accumulate to a fatal 0.5 kilotons, almost a twentieth of the energy released in the first used fission bomb.</bull**** wong assumption>

vs

General Order 24: An order to destroy all life on an entire planet. This order has been given by Captain Garth (Antos IV) and Captain Kirk (Eminiar VII). On neither occasion was the order actually fulfilled.

"Thirty percent of the planet's crust destroyed in the opening volley"

[StarWarsStarTrek]

vs

General Order 24: An order to destroy all life on an entire planet. This order has been given by Captain Garth (Antos IV) and Captain Kirk (Eminiar VII). On neither occasion was the order actually fulfilled.

"Thirty percent of the planet's crust destroyed in the opening volley"

The calculation I cited involving half a kiloton was made by a spacebattles member, not Wong, who indeed was flabbergasted by the result.

Out of universe explanation: The authors of Star Trek overestimate the power of pulsars and other celestial bodies, instead having Data sprout bullshit without bothering to think of the implications.

Possible in universe explanations:

1. The Enterprise actually does only have 0.5 kilotons of shielding

2. The Enterprise is really, really vulnerable to EM radiation for some reason, meaning that the gigaton/high megaton nukes seen here:



would be pretty devastating.



As for general order 24, it involves wiping out all life on a planet. A Base Delta Zero, based not only on the AOTC/ROTS ICS, but also on the Techinical Journel, the quote I showed earlier, and several other examples from various 3rd party sources, involves the turning of the upper surface of a planet into molten slag. That is more powerful than a very mass extinction event by several orders of magnitude.

As for 30% of the planet's crust, this has been gone over again and again (not that I have a problem with it, but people who accuse me of doing this; this debate's been going on for a very, very long time). The visuals clearly refute this, as 30% of the planet's crust has not been destroyed, nor have effects one would expect from such an event been witnessed when they should have been. Visuals > dialog, because visuals are concrete while dialogs are made by fallible in universe characters.

[Admiral Breetai]

why are you using an EU comic scene when you know they aren't canon nor are to be used in my threads?

why are you lying about trek again?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

why are you using an EU comic scene when you know they aren't canon nor are to be used in my threads?

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

why are you lying about trek again?

Another example of a vague, unsupported accusation!

[Admiral Breetai]

C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

again the EU does not fucking count it's bullshit and it's massively fanwanked

Another example of a vague, unsupported accusation!

lol no

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I gave you an official statement from Lucasarts. You gave me your opinion. George Lucas > your opinion.

And how is "lol no" a rebuttal?

[Admiral Breetai]

I gave you an official statement from Lucasarts. You gave me your opinion. George Lucas > your opinion.

bo that's chees opinion not Lucas both Darkstar and picard have provided Quotes where lucas basicallt says "lol no i see it as fanfiction I occasionally steal ideas from and troll"

And how is "lol no" a rebuttal?

it is when dealing with a wall of ignorance debate tactic