I challenge darkstar to a debate

[Praeothmin]

you are absolutely now and for ever more wrong on all your assertions regarding SWU industrial superiority over trek and when it comes time to play with the big boys

That's a no-no, and bad debating, please don't do it again, m'kay thanks...

[2046]

Yes, SpaceWizard (and Breetai), you may, because SWST is just repeating himself with no evidence of having paid any attention to what was said.

I'll grant I went easy on the kid, and probably too easy, but holy crap . . . he's acting like I never said a word in response.

Put succinctly, he still claims a speed for the Death Star while ignoring all evidence that his speed is based entirely on an out-of-scale diagram that does not agree with the Imperial graphic of the same situation or the exterior visuals in the movie itself (visuals which agree far more closely with the Imperial graphic) . . . his chosen diagram was shown to be basically useless in in 2002!

Compare the Rebel diagram at 2:35 in the clip below with the exterior visual seconds later . . . literally, SWST's claim falls apart in a mere 10 seconds worth of Star Wars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvc70ptopqw

Without the speed he wants to claim, then he can't claim an energy, even with his made-up mass. Without energy, he can't claim reactor power for the Death Star. Without reactor power, he can't scale down to an ISD reactor (the size of which is not canonically known, and besides which the maneuver is flawed, but neither fact stops him). Without an ISD reactor energy, he can't insist that the energy "must be going somewhere", not that he can claim ISD turbolasers are DET anyway (after all, we've seen shells on similar tubs).

But he pretends like his conclusion is inviolable . . . like the house stands even if every card of which it is made is knocked down.

And what's the greater kindness, here? To give him the benefit of the doubt in that he does not know that snapping every link in a chain of reasoning breaks the chain completely? Or to assume that he's smart enough to know better but is trying to get one over on the readers?

If the latter, the thing that's really astonishing is how shameless he is about it, too. I mean, most people trying to get away with something so ridiculous have enough decency to be a little bashful about it, but this one tries to go for bold ridiculousness. That sort of thing may work if you're a high-octane high-pressure salesman face-to-face with someone, but we can all read what he says and digest it at our leisure. And yet:

You curiously ignore my point that said energy that star destroyers can produce are being used for something, and that e24 joules could not possibly be used for, for exmaple, cooking dinner. {...} You dismiss my speed energy calculations as "wild guesses" while missing the point.

One just has to laugh . . . not with him and his oh-I'm-so-clever dinner thing, but at the marvelously ridiculous, unabashedly arrogant counterfactualism.

The alternative . . . i.e. if he doesn't understand the crushing of his claim . . . is simply to pity him.

[2046]

Oh, and let's not forget the Breen thing:

They spend time sending down troops with the intention of essentially destroying a city when they could have used orbital bombardment.

Could they? How do you know?

Why could they not use orbital bombardment?

Probably the same reason Al Qaida didn't have all their guys fly over and hop the White House fence to try to take over the place. Sometimes, frontal assaults are just suicide, and not even the kind they would consider to be good.

c) The Federation allowed for what was likely a very small force of troops to land onto Earth and attack San Fransisco, and failed to stop the attack.

What sort of mind would present such a thing as a failure? No force can prevent everything. That's like saying "OMG the WW2 US Navy sucked because they failed to stop attacks on America!"

The Breen, much like Al Qaida, wanted to instill fear . . . shock and awe, if you will. They succeeded, but their success was not the Federation's failure.

Besides, given the plausible Separatist landing on Coruscant featuring the capture of the Republic's leader in wartime, are you sure you really want to start claiming that interstellar nations which allow their capital worlds to be attacked do in fact suck?

[mojo]

you are absolutely now and for ever more wrong on all your assertions regarding SWU industrial superiority over trek and when it comes time to play with the big boys

That's a no-no, and bad debating, please don't do it again, m'kay thanks...

except of course that he was right.

[Praeothmin]

you are absolutely now and for ever more wrong on all your assertions regarding SWU industrial superiority over trek and when it comes time to play with the big boys

That's a no-no, and bad debating, please don't do it again, m'kay thanks...

except of course that he was right.

No, he wasn't, because he doesn't know what future arguments SWST may present, so in fact cannot know if he is forever wrong.
Plus, we don't like that here, as it's bad debating... :)

[StarWarsStarTrek]

One just has to laugh . . . not with him and his oh-I'm-so-clever dinner thing, but at the marvelously ridiculous, unabashedly arrogant counterfactualism.

The alternative . . . i.e. if he doesn't understand the crushing of his claim . . . is simply to pity him.

It's laughable how hypocritical you are. You refused a debate with Wong because he would not accept debating terms to remain civil and calm. Now do you realize why your veneer of being civil and calm, darkstar, is really just an act?

Then, you accept a debate in which one of the debating terms are to stay polite, and then violate it.

Funny thing is, you didn't bother to respond to the quote that you quoted, despite it being one of my primary arguments.

It's also hilarious that you attempt to debunk my Death Star -> star destroyer scalings by:

1. Claiming that scaling a reactor up reduces its efficiency

and after realizing that such a claim actually helps my argument, you go with this:

2. Using the example of combustion engines not being scalable down to a computer chip

Yes. In other words, you think that a fusion reactor, which is what you think Star Wars ships run on, needs to be 16kms to function properly, and the star destroyer's 160 meter power generator will be so small that nuclear fusion's efficiency will decrease, thus making my scalings inaccurate.

Excuse me? 160 meters for a fusion reactor being analogous to a few inches using gas power?

Both the Death Star and a star destroyer are large enough for there to be no micro issues with a fusion reactor. If anything, scaling it up with reduce its efficiency...and thus make my scalings low end.

[2046]

It's laughable how hypocritical you are. You refused a debate with Wong because he would not accept debating terms to remain civil and calm. Now do you realize why your veneer of being civil and calm, darkstar, is really just an act?

If you want a proper debate, you have to act accordingly. But if you want to whine and complain and keep posting after the debate's over as you're doing, then the rules are off. For instance, I've had far better things to do than read your tripe so guess what? This post is late by the debate's rules. But as everyone knows, the debate's long over, and your performance was pitiful. I'm ever so sorry if this hurts your feelings.

Funny thing is, you didn't bother to respond to the quote that you quoted, despite it being one of my primary arguments.

I had just spent paragraphs deconstructing your claim bit by bit, and you have the audacity to claim that I didn't respond?

It is not necessary or prudent to be civil in a debate with a damn fool, especially when the debate's already over, and especially when the damn fool is such a poor liar.

[Praeothmin]

It is not necessary or prudent to be civil in a debate with a damn fool, especially when the debate's already over, and especially when the damn fool is such a poor liar.

And yet it is when it's the rule, and so you get 1 warning for these insults.
You've been around long enough to know the rules...

[Admiral Breetai]

It is not necessary or prudent to be civil in a debate with a damn fool, especially when the debate's already over, and especially when the damn fool is such a poor liar.

And yet it is when it's the rule, and so you get 1 warning for these insults.
You've been around long enough to know the rules...

given SWST's conduct he entirely deserved to be insulted he's been trolling so hard lately and what he did there was blatantly disrespectful and trolltastic

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Spare me a break. Foolish blunders aside (like using a scaling analogy that works in favor of the ISD), you still cannot adequately counter this very simple strain of logic:

An ISD can generate e23 joules or more based on scaling down from the Death Star's circumnavigation of Yavin in 30 minutes.

All of the e23 joules is being used for something; the figure does not include energy lost as heat.

e23 joules per second is 10,000 times the power output of the Enterprise.

What could e23 joules be used for? The only ones that would consume a significant portion of such an enormous amount of energy are:

Shields
Weapons
Propulsion
Sensors and jamming, maybe
Hyperdrive, but only used sparingly

With things such a life support and communication being very important but not requiring
a significant portion of e23 joules.

So if in a combat situation the ISD evenly spreads power out to the 4 sections; hyperdrive
is situational and the rest would account to under 1% of e23 joules, that would be about
2.5e22 joules for weapons, shields, propulsion and sensors/jamming each.

That would mean:

About ten teratons of weapons energy per second
Ten teratons of shield per second; this is a sketchy statement due to the hit point nature
of SW and ST shields
Enough propulsion to accelerate the ISD at enormous speeds
Ten teratons of sensors and jamming

You are probably going to claim that this is just speculation. Well every calculation you, I, Wong or anyone else makes is technically speculation: the good ones are rational speculations with reasoning, science, etc to back it up. I have backed mine up, so why don't you refute the details and arguments of my claim than dismiss it as speculation, giving no indication that you even read it? Are all of our calculations not speculation, but preferably ones backed up by evidence?

[2046]

Damn, where was that thread where SWST was demanding specific examples of him not acknowledging the existence of other arguments? Because this is a prime example.

you still cannot adequately counter this very simple strain of logic

... However, I would also like to tender my deep appreciation for the laugh for the inadvertently-honest slip of yours above. "Strain of logic", indeed.

And regarding that warning ... I defended this kid when I thought others were abusing him, but if one cannot call him a damn fool and a liar when he's both in spades and says worse of others, and others say worse of him ... that's pretty shabby.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

As I expected, you outright ignore my post, going for a stupid nitpick. Your classic excuse for this is probably going to be the older than dirt "I already responded to that (insert deceptive and nonsubstantial rhetoric language)" or to conveniently refuse to continue the debate right when I make the primary section of my argument.

Have you ever wondered why you are dislikes almost universally on spacebattles, SDN AND aswst?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

As I expected, you outright ignore my post, going for a stupid nitpick. Your classic excuse for this is probably going to be the older than dirt "I already responded to that (insert deceptive and nonsubstantial rhetoric language)" or to conveniently refuse to continue the debate right when I make the primary section of my argument.

Who the hell are you to whine about being "outright ignored" when this:

An ISD can generate e23 joules or more based on scaling down from the Death Star's circumnavigation of Yavin in 30 minutes.

Has been ripped to shreds from several angles (rusulting in you running from what ever thread it was ripped apart in) and you continue to post it as if it has not?.

YOU even started a thread for people to list the shit you keep ignoring and now you are ignoring that as well.

Here we go:

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1952

[2046]

As I expected, you outright ignore my post, going for a stupid nitpick.

You have only posted the same ignorant claim alongside your delusional stance that I have not responded, which is so obviously false that it doesn't warrant my attention. I now simply laugh at you.

Have you ever wondered why you are dislikes almost universally on spacebattles, SDN AND aswst?

Not really, no. I disagree with the state religion of a small cadre of fools, fools whom I do not suffer. What's to wonder about?

[Mike DiCenso]

As I expected, you outright ignore my post, going for a stupid nitpick.

You have only posted the same ignorant claim alongside your delusional stance that I have not responded, which is so obviously false that it doesn't warrant my attention. I now simply laugh at you.

Ease up on it, Robert. I'm not so sure "delusional" is appropriate here anyway since SWST is trolling at this point to try and get as many people as possible angry and fustrated at his/her repeated rhetorical nonsense.

The 1e23 W ISD reactor but was not only debunked by you, it's been debunked by me as well as others here. The main emphasis is that the Death Star did not apply all that 1e25 to 1e28 J energy all at once, but over time, and that assumes that the battlestation even did anything at all other than sling shot around Yavin using the planet's gravity and a few small thruster or repulsorlift antigravity drive to make course adjustments along the way.

SWST's assumptions about the DS having Federation starship-like densities was debunked too, a key item in his alleged 1e29 J number. In fact, I don't recall ever seeing SWST go full out with calculations to justify his/her claims, and instead relied on others to do the work, like the ones that I did in the "Slave Ship and ICS" thread that gave stated generous assumptions about the lifting of an ocean off a planet's surface, but then in turn ignored with fact that it was an overly generous set of assumptions in the first place.

Mister Oragahn followed up showing how the Black Ice-type fuel carrier ships would really be more around 2.965 e13 W, something which SWST ignored.
-Mike