I challenge darkstar to a debate

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Yeah, but the so-called low showings aren't as low as some people claim, plus do a number of low showings cancel out an equal number of high-end ones?
-Mike

Lower limit events do nothing to effect upper.

[Admiral Breetai]

Yes, since there are also consistent low end showings as well...

praeo Superman got taken out by a fence and Thanos got busted by the NYPD once...are we to take crap like that seriously?

all fiction has low showing..its based to either dismiss them if they are all over the place..or to examine them and the high end ones and come to a conclusion based off consistency

[Praeothmin]

praeo Superman got taken out by a fence and Thanos got busted by the NYPD once...are we to take crap like that seriously?

all fiction has low showing..its based to either dismiss them if they are all over the place..or to examine them and the high end ones and come to a conclusion based off consistency

The difference is, Superman getting owned by a fence happened only once.
ST has numerous low-end examples, just as numerous as the high-end ones, in fact.
So you have to consider them when performing an analysis, and come up with an averaging which can represent the power best...

[Picard]

Yes; but most of these examples can be explained, one way or another. Since we know that both torpedoes and energy weapons in Trek verse have controllable yields, it comes down to wether we have any indication full yield was about to be used or not. Which automatically eliminates lot of examples.

[Praeothmin]

Yes; but most of these examples can be explained, one way or another. Since we know that both torpedoes and energy weapons in Trek verse have controllable yields, it comes down to wether we have any indication full yield was about to be used or not. Which automatically eliminates lot of examples.

Well, in that case, the bullshit argument most Warsies use to validate ICS claims "the gunzzz were at lower settingzzzzz" becomes valid...
I don't agree that we should all believe the weapons were set at a lower setting (like 2 or 3 OOM lower then the high-end examples) in combat, for example, because that's just too stupid to conceive...
We don't reduce the power of our guns when in a war, and we don't use weaker grenades either...
What I will not accept is that a ship supposedly capable of tanking GTs will be damaged by a low KT weapon...
ST shuttles can take Capital ship level firepower (so GTs), and yet hand weapons can scorch their hulls?
Hand weapons can do damage which is credibly mistaken a ship's weapon fire?

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Well, in that case, the bullshit argument most Warsies use to validate ICS claims "the gunzzz were at lower settingzzzzz" becomes valid...

To claim that and for it to have any validation at all you would need G canon examples of higher yields just like trek has.

[Picard]

Yes; but most of these examples can be explained, one way or another. Since we know that both torpedoes and energy weapons in Trek verse have controllable yields, it comes down to wether we have any indication full yield was about to be used or not. Which automatically eliminates lot of examples.

Well, in that case, the bullshit argument most Warsies use to validate ICS claims "the gunzzz were at lower settingzzzzz" becomes valid...
I don't agree that we should all believe the weapons were set at a lower setting (like 2 or 3 OOM lower then the high-end examples) in combat, for example, because that's just too stupid to conceive...
We don't reduce the power of our guns when in a war, and we don't use weaker grenades either...
What I will not accept is that a ship supposedly capable of tanking GTs will be damaged by a low KT weapon...
ST shuttles can take Capital ship level firepower (so GTs), and yet hand weapons can scorch their hulls?
Hand weapons can do damage which is credibly mistaken a ship's weapon fire?

Validating ICS claims would be all nice and kind, if it were not for one small problem - ICS is part of EU, and is not canon. Besides, I'm not talking about "taking high-end examples only". I am talking about "taking examples where we are informed, or can reliably assume that maximum yields are about to be used", regardless of actual yields shown. For example, "Rise" can be used to show that photorp yield cannot be lower than 200 megatons, since it is what it is implied to be in dialogue. "Skin of Evil" pushes that limit up to 500 megatons. But neither gives indication of maximum photon torpedo yields - for getting high end, we have to look at one example where we are told exactly what photon torpedoes can do at maximum yield - namely, Pegasus, and then take care to bring it in line with other two examples, which can only be done if we assume either melting (I just realized it) or vaporization of asteroid, which means individual torpedo should be between 3.46 to 10.2 or 17.3 to 31.4 gigatons. Which range is "correct" one depends solely how willing you are to accpet low-DET values for TDiC, which are calculated by Graham Kennedy to be 24.5 gigatons.

[Admiral Breetai]

The difference is, Superman getting owned by a fence happened only once.
ST has numerous low-end examples, just as numerous as the high-end ones, in fact.
So you have to consider them when performing an analysis, and come up with an averaging which can represent the power best...

low end showings like that happen more than once with guys like Superman they aren't as common as space battles likes to claim mind ye maybe once or twice in a year or five years but my point was all the same when dealing with a franchise that like Dc or in this case Trek that have been around for decades your bound to encounter those crappy showings., usually you can look at them and figure out whats what and get a good analysis down yes?

[Praeothmin]

Let me clarify how I look at things:
Say in ST, 90% of the time, we see or hear or are told that weapons are around the triple digit KT...
Then, you have 5-6% of low single digit KT, 1% of sub-KT effects, and 2-3% of multiple MT or single GT...
The percentages can vary a bit, it could be 85%, 5%, 2% and 8%, it doesn't matter.
The majority of effects place ST at triple digit KT (example number, not actual calculations), with a few higher or lower outliers that may be explained, and some that may not...
The facts are still that the majority shows lower power, much lower than the high-end examples, which cannot be explained by saying simply "variable yields"...
So I prefer to take everything into account, and try to find an "average" value that satisfies all we see, and sometimes I simply ignore the too ludicrous examples...

And the same goes for SW, btw...
I take the EU into account as well as the movies, but when there is a contradiction, I use the highest Canon as the deciding factor...

But most importantly, if I give ST the benifit of the doubt, such as using the term "variable yields" to explain things, I will do the same exact thing for SW...

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes; but most of these examples can be explained, one way or another. Since we know that both torpedoes and energy weapons in Trek verse have controllable yields, it comes down to wether we have any indication full yield was about to be used or not. Which automatically eliminates lot of examples.

Well, in that case, the bullshit argument most Warsies use to validate ICS claims "the gunzzz were at lower settingzzzzz" becomes valid...
I don't agree that we should all believe the weapons were set at a lower setting (like 2 or 3 OOM lower then the high-end examples) in combat, for example, because that's just too stupid to conceive...
We don't reduce the power of our guns when in a war, and we don't use weaker grenades either...
What I will not accept is that a ship supposedly capable of tanking GTs will be damaged by a low KT weapon...
ST shuttles can take Capital ship level firepower (so GTs), and yet hand weapons can scorch their hulls?
Hand weapons can do damage which is credibly mistaken a ship's weapon fire?

Variable yeild capability exists in Star Trek. It is a fundamental piece of canon, as well you know. Even Star Wars has some ability in that regard, but it seems much more limited and crude by comparison.

If a tens of KT weapon puts a small hole in a starship's hull, but it takes gigatons to completely destroy it, I don't see a contradiction there.

Shuttlecraft tanking capital ship firepower? Since when? We rarely see shuttles try to do battle with a full starship, and the shuttle fares very poorly, even with the larger ship is not actually trying to do more than disable the shuttle. In fact, the Federation fighters seen in the Dominion War were One Hit Wonders, despite the fact that they are dedicated combat vessels. Runabouts also do not do any better. Shuttles, or other small ships only get the upper hand on a larger capital ship usually by means of some trickery.

Also, on the subject of damage to a shuttle's hull from a phaser rifle:



Note the carbon scoring and lack of serious penetration by the weapon into the hull, and this after what was apparently several seconds here and there of firing the phaser. Mostly it's a lot of carbon scoring, and not much else.
-Mike

[mojo]

just out of curiosity, when did 'a fence' stop superman? and when did THE POLICE manage to arrest and incarcerate THANOS? WHO WROTE THESE STORIES?

[Praeothmin]

If a tens of KT weapon puts a small hole in a starship's hull, but it takes gigatons to completely destroy it, I don't see a contradiction there.

I do if those "tens of KTs" heavily damage the ship in question, doing more than just "putting a small hole in"...

For example, IIRC, in "Best of Both Worlds" it is stated that a full spread (so, 4-5 torpedoes) at full power close to the E-D would heavily damage it, even with shields up...
But then, Pegasus shows us torpedo strength ranging from high KT per torpedo to low MT per torpedo...
Anyway you cut it, this would indicate the fully shielded E-D gets heavily damaged by a few high KT or low MT, when it's not even the target, but it's actually just getting hit by the shockwave, at a distance, in space, where shuch wave would lose power very fast...

Shuttlecraft tanking capital ship firepower? Since when? We rarely see shuttles try to do battle with a full starship, and the shuttle fares very poorly

We do, however, see them try to escape such ships often enough, and we see their shields take a few low powered shots from the Capital ships' main guns, and they survive quite well...
Now you are going to tell me that such a ship, capable of taking a few low powered shots from a GT capable weapon, will be credibly damaged by hand weapons, even weapons firing for a few seconds?
Either the hand weapon in question is hellaciously powerful, or the main guns fired at 0.0000001% of it's full power at the shuttles...
Neither case is believable...

Note the carbon scoring and lack of serious penetration by the weapon into the hull, and this after what was apparently several seconds here and there of firing the phaser. Mostly it's a lot of carbon scoring, and not much else.

And this carbon-scoring was supposed to pass for a ship's weapons' fire, because the shuttle had to look like it had been fired upon during it's escape...
Would you, a Cardassian officer, believe for one second the shuttle had indeed been in a fight with a starship if all you saw were small carbon-scoring marks?
I wouldn't...

[Mike DiCenso]

I do if those "tens of KTs" heavily damage the ship in question, doing more than just "putting a small hole in"...

For example, IIRC, in "Best of Both Worlds" it is stated that a full spread (so, 4-5 torpedoes) at full power close to the E-D would heavily damage it, even with shields up...
But then, Pegasus shows us torpedo strength ranging from high KT per torpedo to low MT per torpedo...
Anyway you cut it, this would indicate the fully shielded E-D gets heavily damaged by a few high KT or low MT, when it's not even the target, but it's actually just getting hit by the shockwave, at a distance, in space, where shuch wave would lose power very fast...

Except that you have no proof of that being the case at all. In the episode "The Pegasus", the calculations you cite for KT or MT are lower limits, assuming little to no vaporization and the breaking up of the asteroid into 10 meter chunks. However, we know that photon torpedoes do vaporize medium-large asteroids as per ST:TMP, "Rise", and "Booby Trap". Thus those examples must be applied to "The Pegasus" to give us a more complete picture. So, as has already been pointed out, with vaporization or melting in mind, high megaton to low gigaton-range firepower for a full-yield torpedo is quite reasonable.

Furthermore, you're being a bit SWST here. The fact that a single weapon does say a few cubic meters of damage to a Galaxy-class starship's hull is hardly proof of anything. And we know that phasers, photon torpedoes, and other weapons come in a range of sizes as well as yeilds. I wouldn't expect a phaser Type-IV to be anything at all on the same power scale as a Type-X, and so on. Also, smaller ships have far weaker firepower most of the time, too. B'Etor and Lursa's BoP in ST:GEN fired two torpedoes that caused at most a few tens of meters damage to the E-D's stardrive hull, but did not outright destroy the Federation starship. However, when the E-D finished off the BoP with a single photon torpedo of it's own, it outright blew the thing into scrap metal.

We do, however, see them try to escape such ships often enough, and we see their shields take a few low powered shots from the Capital ships' main guns, and they survive quite well...
Now you are going to tell me that such a ship, capable of taking a few low powered shots from a GT capable weapon, will be credibly damaged by hand weapons, even weapons firing for a few seconds?
Either the hand weapon in question is hellaciously powerful, or the main guns fired at 0.0000001% of it's full power at the shuttles...
Neither case is believable...

Given that a single hit from a GCS' photon torpedo is enough to turn a 150 meter ship into tiny bits of scrap metal, the context of what is going on when a shuttle escapes, or tries to is very important. For example, in VOY's "Timeless" and "Non Sequitur", the goal of the larger ships was not to destroy the Delta Flyer or runabout in the respective examples, it was to recapture them. Thus we have to assume that lower settings are in use as well as precision fire.

Also the damage from the phaser rifle was not the result a few seconds, either. It was from a number of high-intensity blasts, each one 2 or more seconds in duration, and from different angles. LaForge and Taurik had also been conducting the "test" for quite some time. Here's the dialog:

LAFORGE: Another two seconds. Okay, that's enough.

TAURIK: Sir, I'm a little puzzled. Why are we intentionally damaging the shuttlecraft?

LAFORGE: We're evaluating hull resiliency. Starfleet requires periodic testing.

TAURIK: I see. I don't believe I'm familiar with that requirement.

LAFORGE: Probably because you're not a senior officer.

TAURIK: If you wish, I could reconfigure the phaser to fire a low intensity burst that would not harm the shuttle's hull. The test procedure would not be affected.

LAFORGE: It's fine the way it is. Now, give me another burst, about four seconds, right here.

TAURIK: Do you want me to fire from this position?

LAFORGE: Actually, why don't you do it from over here.

TAURIK: That would be consistent.

LAFORGE: Consistent with what?

TAURIK: With making it appear that this shuttle had fled an attack.

LAFORGE: What makes you think that's what we're doing?

TAURIK: The pattern of fire you have asked for is similar to what might result if the shuttle had fled an attacker while engaging in evasive manoeuvres.

LAFORGE: It's an amazing coincidence.

TAURIK: Yes, sir. It is indeed. Shall we proceed with the testing?

LAFORGE: Yes, Ensign. Thank you.

So the visuals in this episode show that it takes some real doing for a phaser rifle to do anything more than burn a tea-cup diameter-sized mark on the hull of an unpowered, and unshielded shuttlecraft. A mark that has little depth to it, and appears only cosmetic at this point. Furthermore, the dialog makes it clear that this is to simulate damage seen by a craft engaged in evasive maneuvers, not necessarily that of a direct hit.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

just out of curiosity, when did 'a fence' stop superman? and when did THE POLICE manage to arrest and incarcerate THANOS? WHO WROTE THESE STORIES?

a red star had exploded in supermans face some months earlier despite some divine protection he lost half his face..an eyeball his liver was ruptured and one of his lunges had collapsed he was suffering from severe burns a concussion etc etc- he was laid up for weeks while his body reabsorbed solar energy and apparently kryptonians have healing factors comparable to Wolverine in his early days when it took weeks to regenerate organs and stuff so he almost died. the guy recovered enough to go back onto active duty for brief periods of time and was slugging it out with the shaggy man..who basically belted him across the city...then followed it up by ripping a wooden white picket fence off some poor dudes yard and then proceeded to bash superman over the head with it until he was knocked out

an exploding star didn't kill him./.getting knocked across a city bigger than new york didn't hurt him but being hit in the face by cheap wood from the home depot..bashed him into a damn week long coma for some unknown reason

it was pretty stupid and it was a Leob comic that guys known for being all over the place. He tried to justify it by 'oh but he was still weak and healing and had lost lots of energy' but..yeah..apparently he can still slug it out with a guy who's fists discharge enough force to shatter islands with no problem..but a fence post..le gasp!

as for thanos he came to new york for pizza riding a helicopter called "The thanos chopper'..with a big purple T on it and everything then he stole a cosmic cube then some five years old stole it and trolled him with it then the police came and arrested him for disturbing the peace and breaking and entering..and apparently not paying for the pizza

it's been said that it was written for children but it was done prior to the infinity saga..and by Starlin himself no less so..yeah no it was just a patently retarded low end showing

my point was like ST you have a very long career of stuff to analyze and not all of it is gonna be high end..some of those low end showings are very clearly gonna be crap

[Praeothmin]

Except that you have no proof of that being the case at all.

Proof of what?
The full spread damaging the E-D?
IIRC, it was mentioned in BoBW...

The Pegasus yields being around high KTs to low MTs?
As discussed in many other threads, these figures are as valid as the GT many try to push, as they assume a standard iron asteroid between 5 and 9 km in diameter...

But it's even worse if you assume that the E-D can tank 5 GT torpedoes, because then it means that a shuttle that can take at least one hit from such weapons will be even scorched by a hand Phaser...
Even if the firing ships had lowered their main weapons' power, you'll never lead me to believe they fired at sub-KT yields if their weapons can do GTs...

However, when the E-D finished off the BoP with a single photon torpedo of it's own, it outright blew the thing into scrap metal.

Yes, the E-D fired a single, well-placed Torpedo, which made the whole ship, including its engines and power plants, explode...
If Lursa and Betor had been better at aiming, if they had hit the Engineering section earlier, the E-D would not have had to take all those hits before exploding...

VOY's "Timeless" and "Non Sequitur", the goal of the larger ships was not to destroy the Delta Flyer or runabout in the respective examples, it was to recapture them. Thus we have to assume that lower settings are in use as well as precision fire.

I agree, they were most likely firing at lower settings, but you will never make me believe weapons capable of GTs have such control that they can fire at sub-KT yields, the yields that would be needed for Geordi's deception with the hand weapons to be believable...

It was from a number of high-intensity blasts, each one 2 or more seconds in duration, and from different angles.

So you believe hand Phasers can fire a yields close to a KT?

Furthermore, the dialog makes it clear that this is to simulate damage seen by a craft engaged in evasive maneuvers, not necessarily that of a direct hit.

And you think it's consistent with a glancing hit from a high MT weapon?
You still don't see the problem with the difference in OOM?