Stupid things Trek/Wars debaters say.

[User1652]

So whenever I get in a discussion with some friends about Star Trek going up against Star Wars in a fight, the number one thing that Star Wars debaters would always say is that their universe could win because they have the Death Star. I think that it is the most common thing for them to say. For Star Trek people would say the Borg or the Q. But I would like to know why is it so common for SW debaters to always say that they only win because they have the Death Star? What are some dumb things that you have heard ST/SW debaters would say?

Also this could thread could also be used for SW vs other Sci fi universes as well.

[Praeothmin]

"But it only penetrated the body glove, even though the new DVD/Blue Ray disks clearly show the arrow penetrating the armor!"
"But he could Force-Choke him instantly, even though we never saw anyone die immediately when being Force-Choked to death!"
"But lasers will not even penetrate the navigational Deflectors, so surely even Turbo-lasers have no chance!"
"But our troopers wear armor, so even if it is cheap, white and offers no protection, surely that allows our troopers to kick pajama-wearing hippies' asses!"
"But Obi-Wan said that they were super precise, it doesn't matter that they can't hit the broad side of a barn at ten paces, the barn must be a Force user or have character shields!"
"But our shields are gravitation-based, so no weapon can even hope to hit our vessels, no matter the fact that objects have hit our fully shielded crafts before!"
"But they can adapt to anything, no matter the fact they couldn't adapt to the psychic insect-like species with no mouth and planet destroying ships!"

Those are some of the most interesting that keep coming up pretty much anytime such a debate between SW and ST arises... :)

[Mike DiCenso]

We already kind of covered this some years ago in a thread called "Top ten VS myths".
-Mike

[KSW]

So whenever I get in a discussion with some friends about Star Trek going up against Star Wars in a fight, the number one thing that Star Wars debaters would always say is that their universe could win because they have the Death Star. I think that it is the most common thing for them to say. For Star Trek people would say the Borg or the Q. But I would like to know why is it so common for SW debaters to always say that they only win because they have the Death Star? What are some dumb things that you have heard ST/SW debaters would say?

Also this could thread could also be used for SW vs other Sci fi universes as well.

Trek was taking out Death Stars back during "Enterprise."
Meanwhile, they've developed planetary shields since then.

What are some dumb things that you have heard ST/SW debaters would say?

Here's some I've read:
1. Hyperdrive goes millions of times lightspeed (reality: thousands)
2. Imperial vessels have neutronium hulls like the Doomsday Machine (Reality: normal metal)
3. The Death Star pulverizes planets by raw energy (reailty: something far less)
4. Trek ships can't fight at warp (reality: absolutely they can)
5. Imperial sensors move faster than lightspeed (reality: they don't)
6. Phasers only move at lightspeed (reality: they should move fast as communications)
7. Imperial turbolasers fire 200 gigatons/shot (reality: giga-joules)
8. Phasers only fire raw EM energy and particles (reality: graviton-based)
9. Imperial shields are better than Federatlon (reality: they're nowhere near)
10. Imperial power is based on hypermatter not fusion (reality: it isn't)

And the all-time #1 stupid thing SW debaters: "the EU is canon except where it contradicts the movies."
(Reality: Lucas is boss, and he never approved the EU as being part of his story; and even if he did, the entire thing would be utterly inconsistent with everything in the movies and novelizations).

I could go on all day, since I've tried many times to debate with them in good faith.

[KSW]

"But lasers will not even penetrate the navigational Deflectors, so surely even Turbo-lasers have no chance!"

I agree with this, since it was fusion-powered lasers just like on the ISD's .

"But our troopers wear armor, so even if it is cheap, white and offers no protection, surely that allows our troopers to kick pajama-wearing hippies' asses!"

It's flack-protection, not direct-hits. Same with modern body-armor, i.e. it will stop flack or small-arms ammo, but nothing will stop a high-powered rifle or grenade at relatively close range.

"But Obi-Wan said that they were super precise, it doesn't matter that they can't hit the broad side of a barn at ten paces, the barn must be a Force user or have character shields!"

Obi-wan was talking in comparison to Sand-people, whom the Stroomtroopers had presented as the attackers on the Jawa's transport. Remember in the beginning of Ep. IV, one Sand-person wants to shoot Luke's speeder, but the other one rebuffs him; obviously their weapons aren't accurate enough to hit the speeder.
Meanwhile, we've never seen Stormtroopers fight anyone who wasn't shooting back in retreat, so a lot of it was likely suppression-fire-- which isn't intended to hit anyone, just to keep them from shooting back. That's why we see a lot of it in the opening-scene aboard Princess Leah's ship, despite few people being hit/shot.
Meanwhile we do see Owen and Beru burned up without any real damage to the homstead itself, indicating a well-placed incindiary device.

"But our shields are gravitation-based, so no weapon can even hope to hit our vessels, no matter the fact that objects have hit our fully shielded crafts before!"

Only graviton-based weapons, or better (like phasers, phased polarons, photon torpedoes, anti-matter plasma weapons etc). Also the ships have deflector-beams, not just deflector-shields; nav-deflectors alone can sweep things out of the ship's path while it's travelling at over 1000C, so that's pretty impressive.
In fact, travelling via space-warp requires shields and energies of such god-like proportions and ranges, that it's like nobody's business; so it would seem that they toned them down quite a bit in the episodes in order to avoid "Balance of Terror" becoming "The sensors say there was a nuclear explosion on our hull, but I didn't feel a thing!"

"But they can adapt to anything, no matter the fact they couldn't adapt to the psychic insect-like species with no mouth and planet destroying ships!"

That species was from outside the universe with nanite-destroying antibodies, so "anything" is a relative term.
And planet-destroying ships can obviously wipe out a Borg cube before they have a chance to adapt, if they can do it fast enough. Remember in BobW, the Enterprise devised a weapon that would have destroyed the Borg ship, and which only failed due to a security-leak through Picard; if they used that on every Borg cube, it would meet the same fate.

[Khas]

Aaaaand, ladies and gentlemen, behold! The Return of KirkSkywalker!

[Mike DiCenso]

Obi-wan was talking in comparison to Sand-people, whom the Stroomtroopers had presented as the attackers on the Jawa's transport. Remember in the beginning of Ep. IV, one Sand-person wants to shoot Luke's speeder, but the other one rebuffs him; obviously their weapons aren't accurate enough to hit the speeder.

I don't think it was a matter of accuracy there as much as the restraining Sand person not wanting any potential swag on the speeder being ruined in a burning wreck.
-Mike

[Picard]

And the all-time #1 stupid thing SW debaters: "the EU is canon except where it contradicts the movies."

Followed by: "ISD vaporized asteroids with PD guns" or "Hoth Asteroids are neutronium".

[Khas]

"But lasers will not even penetrate the navigational Deflectors, so surely even Turbo-lasers have no chance!"

I agree with this, since it was fusion-powered lasers just like on the ISD's .

Turbolasers don't behave like lasers. Not in the slightest.

Only graviton-based weapons, or better (like phasers, phased polarons, photon torpedoes, anti-matter plasma weapons etc). Also the ships have deflector-beams, not just deflector-shields; nav-deflectors alone can sweep things out of the ship's path while it's travelling at over 1000C, so that's pretty impressive.
In fact, travelling via space-warp requires shields and energies of such god-like proportions and ranges, that it's like nobody's business; so it would seem that they toned them down quite a bit in the episodes in order to avoid "Balance of Terror" becoming "The sensors say there was a nuclear explosion on our hull, but I didn't feel a thing!"

Star Trek disagrees with you about phasers being graviton-based:
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser

The polaron is a real particle. It's an electron with an accompanying polarization field.

And shield modulation is measured in MegaHertz. Which seems to indicate that photons make up some component of deflector shields.

So whenever I get in a discussion with some friends about Star Trek going up against Star Wars in a fight, the number one thing that Star Wars debaters would always say is that their universe could win because they have the Death Star. I think that it is the most common thing for them to say. For Star Trek people would say the Borg or the Q. But I would like to know why is it so common for SW debaters to always say that they only win because they have the Death Star? What are some dumb things that you have heard ST/SW debaters would say?

Also this could thread could also be used for SW vs other Sci fi universes as well.

Trek was taking out Death Stars back during "Enterprise."
Meanwhile, they've developed planetary shields since then.

What are some dumb things that you have heard ST/SW debaters would say?

Here's some I've read:
1. Hyperdrive goes millions of times lightspeed (reality: thousands)
2. Imperial vessels have neutronium hulls like the Doomsday Machine (Reality: normal metal)
3. The Death Star pulverizes planets by raw energy (reailty: something far less)
4. Trek ships can't fight at warp (reality: absolutely they ca n)
5. Imperial sensors move faster than lightspeed (reality: they don't)

No argument with these.

6. Phasers only move at lightspeed (reality: they should move fast as communications)

We never see anything like that in ST.

7. Imperial turbolasers fire 200 gigatons/shot (reality: giga-joules)

Most likely megatons, with 100 MT being the limit, as TCW shows.

8. Phasers only fire raw EM energy and particles (reality: graviton-based)

Nope. Nadion-based: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Phaser

9. Imperial shields are better than Federatlon (reality: they're nowhere near)

No argument with this.

10. Imperial power is based on hypermatter not fusion (reality: it isn't)

Hypermatter is only high-end, like the Death Star. Otherwise, no real disagreement.

And the all-time #1 stupid thing SW debaters: "the EU is canon except where it contradicts the movies."
(Reality: Lucas is boss, and he never approved the EU as being part of his story; and even if he did, the entire thing would be utterly inconsistent with everything in the movies and novelizations).

I could go on all day, since I've tried many times to debate with them in good faith.

Blame Leland Chee. He's the one who's in charge of SW canon. Of course, with TCW shitting on the EU like a fat guy from Vermont who drank five gallons of Mexican spring water, and comments from Lucas, it'll be only a matter of time before he gives up due to all the headaches.

[Picard]

As far as I know, Chee is in charge of marketing.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

This is recent but its still priceless:

"A small, one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defense."

=


"Right, and a small, one-man fighter SHOULD be able to avoid the Superlaser. But it is also in no way a certainty."

A sb.com posters attempted justification for the Dodonna comment being about the superlaser.

[Mike DiCenso]

That's a new twist to an old canard. Without the superlaser fallacy, the Warsies have little to cling to for ship and firepower numbers, and I'm really suprised that anyone even tries to defend it anymore.
-Mike

[User1652]

This is recent but its still priceless:

"A small, one-man fighter should be able to penetrate the outer defense."

=


"Right, and a small, one-man fighter SHOULD be able to avoid the Superlaser. But it is also in no way a certainty."

A sb.com posters attempted justification for the Dodonna comment being about the superlaser.

Can I see the thread and where you got this from?

[Admiral Breetai]

an ISD's power core is comparable to a star. Yeah no,

Star Trek ships can't fire at more than point blank.

[Praeothmin]

Only graviton-based weapons, or better (like phasers, phased polarons, photon torpedoes, anti-matter plasma weapons etc).

Really?
So asteroids are graviton based now?
The Romulan ship wing in NEM that hit the fully shielded E-E was graviton based?