I challenge darkstar to a debate

[sonofccn]

@ SWST

The ROTS novel quote regarding "hundreds of kilometers" is overruled by the movie of that scene which we see the ships are meters apart blasting at each other. There is no getting around this, it is a clear and dry contridiction.

[Praeothmin]

@ SWST

The ROTS novel quote regarding "hundreds of kilometers" is overruled by the movie of that scene which we see the ships are meters apart blasting at each other. There is no getting around this, it is a clear and dry contridiction.

No no no no, see, it is not directly contradicted because no one in the movie said "wow, wish we could fire at those ships at hundreds of km instead of being forced to fight at these knife-wielding ranges"...

The only thing the movie shows is that the ships were close to one another, it doesn't say that they couldn't fight at hundreds of km...

Do you understand?
Are you enlightened?

[Mr. Oragahn]

@ SWST

The ROTS novel quote regarding "hundreds of kilometers" is overruled by the movie of that scene which we see the ships are meters apart blasting at each other. There is no getting around this, it is a clear and dry contridiction.

We could always consider that some of the ships were firing at other ships far in the distance.

[sonofccn]

@ SWST

The ROTS novel quote regarding "hundreds of kilometers" is overruled by the movie of that scene which we see the ships are meters apart blasting at each other. There is no getting around this, it is a clear and dry contridiction.

No no no no, see, it is not directly contradicted because no one in the movie said "wow, wish we could fire at those ships at hundreds of km instead of being forced to fight at these knife-wielding ranges"...

The only thing the movie shows is that the ships were close to one another, it doesn't say that they couldn't fight at hundreds of km...

Oh of course! :) I bet they are firing those Teraton HTLs out there too with their bazillion of warships. Maybe tens of bazillions!

Do you understand?
Are you enlightened?

Oh I'm just a dumb Trekkie. I'm afraid your pearls of wisdom are merley wasted on one such as me. ;)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Do you understand?
Are you enlightened?

Oh I'm just a dumb Trekkie. I'm afraid your pearls of wisdom are merley wasted on one such as me. ;)

You are immensely lucky that he deigned read your post, lowly one. Do not importunate him again. >:|

[StarWarsStarTrek]

@ SWST

The ROTS novel quote regarding "hundreds of kilometers" is overruled by the movie of that scene which we see the ships are meters apart blasting at each other. There is no getting around this, it is a clear and dry contridiction.

No, the novels could be referring to a different time/section of the battle, and it does mention that the ships firing weapons at near light-speed appear to be hull to hull.

@P:

As I suspected, you completely fail to comprehend the most basic differences between the movies not showing something and contradicting something...

Buy it doesn't really matter. Because we all know that TCW is bunk, because Ahsoka Tano was never shown in the movies. You are obviously a dishonest troll, continuing to use non canon evidence...

Yeah...you are dishonest...you use evidence that is never shown in the movies...

[Admiral Breetai]

Yeah...you are dishonest...you use evidence that is never shown in the movies...

so about them trillions of vessels

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Yeah...you are dishonest...you use evidence that is never shown in the movies...

so about them trillions of vessels

READ MY FUCKING POSTS IN MORE DETAIL.

I provided plenty of evidence to support it. But I'll post them again to get you to stop fucking flaming me everywhere, and some new ones as well.

1. The Death Star 2. Masses hundreds of billions of ISDs, made in secret, in the Outer Rim, in under a year.

2. The fact that, in a population of 100 quadrillion where starships are common enough for a down-on-his-luck smuggler to own a decent sized one, statistically speaking the galaxy's private sector must produce many, many trillions to keep up with demand.

3. The fact that the WEG implies 1.6 million non destroyer vessels just in the sector fleet alone.

4. The amount of cargo shipping needed to supply Coruscant and the various other giant city-planets every day.

5. The fact that a single decimal point error in the fiscal budget, according to Traviss, can make many thousands of Acclamator star destroyers.

6. The fact that the Star Wars: Complete Cross Sections quantifies the CIS as possessing millions of warships.

Perhaps trillions is an exaggeration, since it's far much more than what would be needed. But billions of fighters is not unsupported, nor are millions of warships.

[sonofccn]

1. The Death Star 2. Masses hundreds of billions of ISDs, made in secret, in the Outer Rim, in under a year.

Lacking would be evidence of "hundreds of billions" of ISDs or equivilent mass in the Empire/New Republic/Galactic Alliance needed to support any noticable fraction of the Deathstars mass . Indeed not only are fleet numbers, from G-canon 30 ships at Endor, T-canon three venators storming Ryloth to C-canon 200 dreadnaught heavy cruisers swinging the scales of power for Thrawn or the New Republic, but the lovely Imperial sourcebook seems to suggest the original DS1 was built with far more bang for ones buck than they could have gotten with Star Destroyers.

EDIT: Hell can't believe I missed this point. The DS2 was made in at least 2 years as per the quote you provided:

“...and the Emperor, pleased with the concept, ordered construction to begin. An unoccupied and isolated sector of space was chosen as the construction site. For nearly two years, every resource of the Empire was directed toward the completion of the project

And the DS1 took more than 19 years to be completed.

The Death Star Project is an example of a priority sector into which the Empire poured resources enough to have formed perhaps a score of Sector Groups

Sector groups are not that massive.

A Sector Group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships. Thousands of Sector Groups are at the Emperor's Group HQ. command as he seeks to bring the galaxy firmly under his control.

So twenty times that would be what? 480 Star Destroyers, including the 900 meter Victory class, and 32,000 combat vessels which can run from strike cruisers to Carrack light cruisers to frigates to small patrol vessels. A tad short of a million.

And yes I do understand this suggests the Empire could mass produced the death stars, assuming it hasn't been overruled by later canon, but it perfectly illustrates the disconect between DS and the convential fleet.

2. The fact that, in a population of 100 quadrillion where starships are common enough for a down-on-his-luck smuggler to own a decent sized one, statistically speaking the galaxy's private sector must produce many, many trillions to keep up with demand.

Sigh.

The massive towers of the Republic Executive Building loomed above it all, seeming as if they would reach the very heavens. And that seemed fitting indeed, for inside, even at this early hour, the events and participants took on godlike stature to the trillions of common folk of the Republic

"Look out there, Anakin. A trillion beings on this planet alone — in the galaxy as awhole, uncounted quadrillions — and of them all, I have chosen you, Anakin Skywalker, to be the heir to my power. To all that I am."

G-canon. There are 2-9 quadrillion people in the galaxy, and Trillions in the Old Republic. Not 100 quadrilion. Unless you have a G-canon quote saying otherwise of course.

Second you still have not provided any evidence of what percentage of the population owns spaceships. Yes Han Solo owns a spaceship but it doesn't state that there are trillions of people buying starships. Looking through Higher canon, T and G, I'm not sure anyone has their own ship who isn't A. in the Military B. in Goverment C. Wealthy D some combination thereof or E. depends upon its solely for their livelyhood be it running freight, smuggling contraband or being a bounty hunter.

Present some evidence, some quote saying X percent of the Republic's population own their own starship, fleet numbers, production numbers. Something.

The fact that the WEG implies 1.6 million non destroyer vessels just in the sector fleet alone.

? A sector group has 2,400 ships total and 1,600 combat ships not counting Star Destroyers. The total Imperial Navy would therefore be about 3 million including ships the size of a corvette and smaller. That doesn't support Trillions of vessels or millions of ISD equivlients.

4. The amount of cargo shipping needed to supply Coruscant and the various other giant city-planets every day.

Do you have any actual evidence on the shipping required? Otherwise this stands:

The industrial sector of Coruscant held perhaps the greatest freight docks in all the galaxy, with a line of bulky transports coming in continually, huge floating cranes ready to meet them and unload the millions of tons of supplies necessary to keep alive the city-planet, which long ago had become too populous to support itself through its own resources. The efficiency of these docks was nothing short of amazing, and yet the place was still tumultuous, and sometimes gridlocked by the sheer number of docking ships and floating cranes.
This was also a place for living passengers, the peasantry of Coruscant, catching cheap rides on freighters outbound, thousands and thousands of people looking to escape the sheer frenzy that had become the world.

Millions of tons needed or about 90 star galleons or their equivilent.

5. The fact that a single decimal point error in the fiscal budget, according to Traviss, can make many thousands of Acclamator star destroyers.

I thought the decimal point was an error, but no-it's off by-well, see for yourself. That much can buy a few thousand Acclamators."

A few thousand not many thousand and it is impressive but it supports more an Empire with tens of thousands of star destroyers and a couple of million of lesser vessels far more than it supports trillion of ships.

6. The fact that the Star Wars: Complete Cross Sections quantifies the CIS as possessing millions of warships.

Even at 9 million and assuming only a trillion civilian ships Civvies would outnumber the CIS fleet by about 100,000 to one. I'm not sure even Saxton's numbers support your assumption.

Perhaps trillions is an exaggeration, since it's far much more than what would be needed. But billions of fighters is not unsupported, nor are millions of warships.

You may bring support for "billions of fighters" and "millions of warships" at any time.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yeah...you are dishonest...you use evidence that is never shown in the movies...

so about them trillions of vessels

READ MY FUCKING POSTS IN MORE DETAIL.

I provided plenty of evidence to support it. But I'll post them again to get you to stop fucking flaming me everywhere, and some new ones as well.

1. The Death Star 2. Masses hundreds of billions of ISDs, made in secret, in the Outer Rim, in under a year.

As I recently told you, stop claiming it's been made under a year. It's patently false.
Also, the resources used for the DS2 cannot be used for ship building.
You can't have both. And the Emperor prefers big balls rather plenty of tiny triangles.

2. The fact that, in a population of 100 quadrillion where starships are common enough for a down-on-his-luck smuggler to own a decent sized one, statistically speaking the galaxy's private sector must produce many, many trillions to keep up with demand.

Not everybody is a smuggler, and ships are still expensive.
You also presume that everybody wants or can afford one. There probably are entire populations that don't see the point of owning a space ship at all.
Notice, btw, that when a ship is built, it can easily be kept for decades. You see, despite all the ruckus Han went through, he kept with the same ship for a loooong time. In fact, that very ship has known different owners.

3. The fact that the WEG implies 1.6 million non destroyer vessels just in the sector fleet alone.

If that is so, what are those ships then?

4. The amount of cargo shipping needed to supply Coruscant and the various other giant city-planets every day.

Same as above: once built, ships are used until they cannot be maintained. It happens in the real world. Have you ever paid attention to what goes on with shipping?
Also, those are civilian space ships, and by virtue of being cargos, can afford being mostly vacuum inside.

5. The fact that a single decimal point error in the fiscal budget, according to Traviss, can make many thousands of Acclamator star destroyers.

As I said, since we don't know where that decimal point ended in the number, it's not as useful as I initially thought.

6. The fact that the Star Wars: Complete Cross Sections quantifies the CIS as possessing millions of warships.

Mmm... two books on three that ended in that Complete thing were either directly written by Saxton or benefited from his very close consulting.

Perhaps trillions is an exaggeration, since it's far much more than what would be needed. But billions of fighters is not unsupported, nor are millions of warships.

Oh, you think trillion may be an exaggeration?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

As I recently told you, stop claiming it's been made under a year. It's patently false.

Shadows of the Empire states otherwise.

Also, the resources used for the DS2 cannot be used for ship building.
You can't have both. And the Emperor prefers big balls rather plenty of tiny triangles.

True, you can't have both. So in a decade of prep time, one will face either seven death stars or seven hundred million imperial star destroyers. Take your pick.

Not everybody is a smuggler,

Because obviously only smugglers desire to be able to travel at will across the stars. Nope, nobody at all would ever want to buy a goddamn spaceship...

and ships are still expensive.

So ships are so expensive that only 0.001% of the populace, as a random number (still ten trillion buyers) can afford to get one, including Han Solo and Luke Skywalker? Why did Han Solo have such trouble paying off his debt then? By your logic, smugglers, every one encountered in Star Wars of whom has a starship of some sort, makeup the wealthy super-elite of the galaxy, and Han Solo is the Bill Gates of Star Wars. Since smugglers tend to support the Rebel Alliance, why were they so low on funds? They have all of the galaxy's elite on their side!

You also presume that everybody wants or can afford one. There probably are entire populations that don't see the point of owning a space ship at all.

So because I state that many trillions of starships will need to be produced in a galaxy of 100 quadrillion; less than 0.1% of the populace, you presume that I presume that "everybody" can afford one or wants one?

Notice, btw, that when a ship is built, it can easily be kept for decades. You see, despite all the ruckus Han went through, he kept with the same ship for a loooong time. In fact, that very ship has known different owners.

And it is quite clearly established that Solo's love for his ship is highly unusual.

That being said, if 1% of the populace wants and can afford a spaceship, and only buys one in his/her lifetime, 1 quadrillion have to be produced every year. If spaceships are so expensive that only 0.000001% of the populace, a super elite that doesn't even have an equivalent in real life, 10 billion spaceships are made in a generation.

If that is so, what are those ships then?

Combat support vessels, likely frigates and corvettes.

Same as above: once built, ships are used until they cannot be maintained. It happens in the real world. Have you ever paid attention to what goes on with shipping?
Also, those are civilian space ships, and by virtue of being cargos, can afford being mostly vacuum inside.

Usually, those ships must be replaced every decade or so. Or less. I fail to see how this sufficiently blunts the numbers needed to logistically support a planet akin to Coruscant.

As I said, since we don't know where that decimal point ended in the number, it's not as useful as I initially thought.

Even if it were in the most generous (to you) possible place, to one significant decimal place, it would still mean that the Republic could afford (theoretically) to churn out millions of Acclamators in a year. And this was at a time when the Republic was in severe economic turmoil, a large portion of it had seceded and Palpatine was likely stealing money left and right.

Mmm... two books on three that ended in that Complete thing were either directly written by Saxton or benefited from his very close consulting.

Who gives a fuck? They're still canon. Believe Saxton or not. But it does not provide grounds for Ad Hominem, not does it deny its canon status. Besides, the fact that the main author listened to Saxton shows that he is not alone in his views, and that the rest of the SW community does not balk at his wank.

Indeed, what is so skeptical about millions of warships existing? Should you not judge the credibility of a source by its content, not its author? Do millions of warships not make sense in a galactic civilization? Does it not fit with statistics and math?

Oh, you think trillion may be an exaggeration?

Yes. Not that they cannot make that many, but doing so would be a waste. Billions, perhaps.

[Mr. Oragahn]

As I recently told you, stop claiming it's been made under a year. It's patently false.

Shadows of the Empire states otherwise.

And is overruled by ROTJ's scroll. From the movie Return of the Jedi, another one you don't seem to have watched.
Not to say, again, that the battle station was not completed (but I'm just repeating myself here).

Also, the resources used for the DS2 cannot be used for ship building.
You can't have both. And the Emperor prefers big balls rather plenty of tiny triangles.

True, you can't have both. So in a decade of prep time, one will face either seven death stars or seven hundred million imperial star destroyers. Take your pick.

Nope. The Emperor will go for battle stations. Because he's the Emperor, that's all.
And if you remove him, then it's not the Empire anymore and the whole structure topples.
Besides, you can't have 7 Death Stars within a decade. Don't be stupid.

Palpatine had the industrial rate increased ten times and yet the DSII wasn't finished. Such a massive strain must have taken an obvious toll on the entire Empire's budgetary might.
The same budget that nearly got broke because of clone troopers some decades ago, and almost ran into a wall because of the sole Imperial Star Destroyer project.

Not everybody is a smuggler,

Because obviously only smugglers desire to be able to travel at will across the stars. Nope, nobody at all would ever want to buy a goddamn spaceship...

People generally buy tickets for that. Just like Padmé and Anakin did to go to Naboo "undercover".
Ooh, another of SWS524JKT's points that went down with a fancy noise.

and ships are still expensive.

So ships are so expensive that only 0.001% of the populace, as a random number (still ten trillion buyers) can afford to get one, including Han Solo and Luke Skywalker?

Solo won it to Lando, through sabbac.
Lando was a business man. See Cloud City? He didn't get there by magic. His next big project involved reclying no less than 40 AT-ATs used to move a city over the surface of a scorched moon.
Let's take yachts.

Those at or above 25 meters (82 ft) are luxury yachts. The Millennium Falcon is at 30 meters.

Examples of prices.
http://www.4yacht.com/
See the smaller yacths at the bottom of the page.

100' 2007 Cheoy Lee / Price: $4,995,000
101' 2007 Azimut / Price: €3,300,000
98' 2007 MCP Yachts / Price: $5,995,000
95' 2007 Hargrave / Price: $4,995,000

Of course yachts aren't exactly as advanced as space ships btw.

Now of course the MF is not a luxury ship.

You can also look at the prices here. You won't find any good boat unless it's used, for tens of thousands of dollars. Miserable, scrap, most of them.
At those prices, of course, what you essentially get is some glorified amalgamation of wood planks, some cabin, diesel engines and here you go.
Gone are the ion drives, hyperdrives, inertia dampeners, repulsors, advanced wiring, computers, tonnes of metal, shields, etc.

Why did Han Solo have such trouble paying off his debt then?

Because his life is pretty much centered on his illegal activities and his ship, and little else?
Why such a question? Obviously he barely had enough to live and maintain his ship.

By your logic, smugglers, every one encountered in Star Wars of whom has a starship of some sort, makeup the wealthy super-elite of the galaxy, and Han Solo is the Bill Gates of Star Wars. Since smugglers tend to support the Rebel Alliance, why were they so low on funds? They have all of the galaxy's elite on their side!

You tire me. I never claimed such a thing, just like there's a variety of ships. You be sure that the super-elite will buy the super duper ship, more like the yacht that Lando bought, the one with the swimming pool at the back, the princess something. And even he is a small fish.

Notice, btw, that when a ship is built, it can easily be kept for decades. You see, despite all the ruckus Han went through, he kept with the same ship for a loooong time. In fact, that very ship has known different owners.

And it is quite clearly established that Solo's love for his ship is highly unusual.

It is?
Or you just made that up?
What about some evidence?

That being said, if 1% of the populace wants and can afford a spaceship, and only buys one in his/her lifetime, 1 quadrillion have to be produced every year. If spaceships are so expensive that only 0.000001% of the populace, a super elite that doesn't even have an equivalent in real life, 10 billion spaceships are made in a generation.

And if only one person out of a million can or wants a space ship while he spends most of his life on a planet, then you only billions of small civilian ships.
Now you always use quadrillions.

Copied from here, when 2046 replied to you:

The Republic has "trillions of common folk" per AotC Ch. 5, and per RotS Ch. 15 Coruscant has "a trillion beings on this planet alone".

If that is so, what are those ships then?

Combat support vessels, likely frigates and corvettes.

Snacks.

Same as above: once built, ships are used until they cannot be maintained. It happens in the real world. Have you ever paid attention to what goes on with shipping?
Also, those are civilian space ships, and by virtue of being cargos, can afford being mostly vacuum inside.

Usually, those ships must be replaced every decade or so. Or less.

You total and absolute fool. They're not cellphones or iPads.
Typical containers go on for several decades. Same goes for fishing boats. Some may even passed down from one generation to another.

I fail to see how this sufficiently blunts the numbers needed to logistically support a planet akin to Coruscant.

Oh. And supporting a planet like Coruscant means you cannot use those resources for something else than... supporting Coruscant.
You can't arbitrarily swap assets.

As I said, since we don't know where that decimal point ended in the number, it's not as useful as I initially thought.

Even if it were in the most generous (to you) possible place, to one significant decimal place, it would still mean that the Republic could afford (theoretically) to churn out millions of Acclamators in a year. And this was at a time when the Republic was in severe economic turmoil, a large portion of it had seceded and Palpatine was likely stealing money left and right.

How the heck did you come to that million Accs number!?

[Picard]

He made it up.

2. The imperial fleet was ordered to ignore the Rebel capital ships.

But Rebel fleet wasn't ordered to ignore Imperial fleet. Besides, check the "We're in attack position now" part.

Do you understand that "maximum" range is not only non existent in space (turbolaser bolts may disperse, but there is no formula dictating when exactly they count as "dispersed", and nothing applies to the various projectile weapons stated in the novel), but theoretical and never used in mobile warfare?

Do you understand that, when people talk about "maximum range", they usually talk about maximum effective range.

[Mr. Oragahn]

In this case I don't. That's why I clearly specify maximum effective range vs mere maximum range ; where, in theory, you can hit something, but you have more time to actually miss it, it's just a way to say that you could always send a projectile that far, but without any guarantee that it will land where you wish it had.

[Picard]

There is no maximum range in space. Shots - be it projectiles, lasers or particle beams - keep going until they hit something. Only thing is that last two may loose cohesion (density) by increasing cross-section during flight. But, individual particles/rays will still go on until they hit something, althought they may not cause damage. So, theoretically, there is no maximum range in space. Practically, once shot is unable to do useful damage, you could speak about maximum range. So, do TL bolts lose cohesion over time?