Stupid things Trek/Wars debaters say.

[Picard]

So, do they have impulse engines ony or fusion reactors only (in other words - no warp nacelles or no warp core?).

[Praeothmin]

Well, screencaps show something that could be taken as Warp Nacelles...

Plus, they were encountered on the Romulan - Federation border, at least a couple of LY away from Romulus, so unless we are supposed to believe they've been travelling for many years at fractions of c, we have to assume they do have Warp Speed...

It may be lower speeds than the Federation's (Kirk's response to Scotty's comment: Meaning we can outrun them" seems to confirm this), it may have limited range, but they must have it to have created an empire spanning many LY with close neighbors capable of flying a mutliple c...

[Mike DiCenso]

The whole Romulans without warp drive or FTL nonsense was debunked years ago. I can't believe people are still trying to bring it up. Just simply read Graham Kennedy's article on the subject here.

Oh, and if this thread keeps going off-topic, I'm going to split it into a new topic since this is about stupid things debaters say, not about whether the Romulans have warp drive or not.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Oh, and if this thread keeps going off-topic, I'm going to split it into a new topic since this is about stupid things debaters say, not about whether the Romulans have warp drive or not.
-Mike

Well, that's one of the stupid things debaters say:
-Romulans didn't have Warp speed in TOS... :)

[Picard]

I never said that they cannot achieve warp speed. However, some incidents seem to suggest that impulse and warp drive run at same basic principles.

[Lucky]

It seems we don't read things the same way, as Spock never specifies "Under their power generation capabilities", and the turning of the phrase doesn't even imply it...
You took two distinct events and quotes, and lumped them into one...

It would be illogical to talk about the capabilities of the Enterprise. It just just get confusing.

Given how plug and play cloaking devices are I would say they just alter how existing systems work.

[Praeothmin]

Riiiiight...
So let me get this straight:
Cloaking is just a matter of power consumption, but it's not a problem for the Federation, just for Romulan vessels...
So then, why the hell was Starfleet interested at all by Romulan cloaks?
If cloaking a ship is so easy, and if the Federation can already do this, why the dangerous covert mission to get a working Romulan cloak?
Why do the Ferengi not have cloaking devices?
Their ships were a match for a Galaxy-class vessel, clearly they didn't have any power issues...
Cardassians should have cloaking as well...

Unless Spock was speaking generally, saying that cloaking a ship demanded immense power beyond the reach of any ship, and that the Romulans had evidently foudn a way to compensate, or a way around that...
Poof, no more issues...
The Cardassians, Ferengi and all other spacefaring races with ships the equal of the Federation ships don't have cloaking because the power demands are still too great, and these powers haven't found a way to bypass the power requirement...

[Picard]

So, using shields to cloak has too high power requirements, but cloaking device lowers it?

[KSW]

So, using shields to cloak has too high power requirements, but cloaking device lowers it?

Pretty much.

[KSW]

Riiiiight...
So let me get this straight:
Cloaking is just a matter of power consumption, but it's not a problem for the Federation, just for Romulan vessels...
So then, why the hell was Starfleet interested at all by Romulan cloaks?
If cloaking a ship is so easy, and if the Federation can already do this, why the dangerous covert mission to get a working Romulan cloak?.

They didn't have the technology, they just knew the general theory, and it's a lot easier to steal working enemy-technology than to build it from scratch based on a theory. Spies do it all the time in war, and it's why crews are ordered to destroy technology to avoid risk of falling into enemy hands.

Unless Spock was speaking generally, saying that cloaking a ship demanded immense power beyond the reach of any ship, and that the Romulans had evidently found a way to compensate, or a way around that...

Spock said "Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem. "

And in "The Enterprise Incident," the Romulan admiral said that they'd find a way to detect the cloaking device eventually, so it's clear that they're worthless unless you have the best technology and it's up-to-date in evading enemy sensors.
Ferrengi and Cardassians didn't.

[KSW]

It seems we don't read things the same way, as Spock never specifies "Under their power generation capabilities", and the turning of the phrase doesn't even imply it...
You took two distinct events and quotes, and lumped them into one...

It would be illogical to talk about the capabilities of the Enterprise. It just just get confusing.

Given how plug and play cloaking devices are I would say they just alter how existing systems work.

Cloaking devices simply modify ship's shields; Scotty said that the device hooked into the ship's deflector-shield control.
Deflector-shields bend energy IIRC, so by it would be like using mirrors.

[Praeothmin]

Riiiiight...
So let me get this straight:
Cloaking is just a matter of power consumption, but it's not a problem for the Federation, just for Romulan vessels...
So then, why the hell was Starfleet interested at all by Romulan cloaks?
If cloaking a ship is so easy, and if the Federation can already do this, why the dangerous covert mission to get a working Romulan cloak?.

They didn't have the technology, they just knew the general theory, and it's a lot easier to steal working enemy-technology than to build it from scratch based on a theory. Spies do it all the time in war, and it's why crews are ordered to destroy technology to avoid risk of falling into enemy hands.

Unless Spock was speaking generally, saying that cloaking a ship demanded immense power beyond the reach of any ship, and that the Romulans had evidently found a way to compensate, or a way around that...

Spock said "Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem. "

And in "The Enterprise Incident," the Romulan admiral said that they'd find a way to detect the cloaking device eventually, so it's clear that they're worthless unless you have the best technology and it's up-to-date in evading enemy sensors.
Ferrengi and Cardassians didn't.

That's my point exactly:
Cloaking is difficult and still requires more energy than ships can provide, and working cloaking devices bypass this enery requirement somehow, which is why they are so prized and rare...

[Lucky]

Cloaking is just a matter of power consumption, but it's not a problem for the Federation, just for Romulan vessels...

The Enterprise was much more powerful then her Romulan counterpart.

Balance of Terror
KIRK: Yes, well gentlemen, the question still remains. Can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory? 

SCOTT: No question. Their power is simple impulse. 

KIRK: Meaning we can outrun them?
...
KIRK: I don't see anything. I can't understand it. 

SPOCK: Invisibility is theoretically possible, Captain, with selective bending of light. But the power cost is enormous. 
They may have solved that problem.

The Romulan ship in question only had impulse power, and Scotty made a big deal about it. Later Spock talks about how energy intensive invisibility can be, but he says nothing about it being beyond the Enterprise's capabilities.

So then, why the hell was Starfleet interested at all by Romulan cloaks? If cloaking a ship is so easy, and if the Federation can already do this, why the dangerous covert mission to get a working Romulan cloak?

Why wouldn't the Federation be interested in the military capabilities of a hostile power that found a novel method of doing something?

There are many different stealth technologies in Star Trek that all seem to do the same thing, but are not called cloaking devices.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Stealth

It's not like a cloaking device only hides you from EM based sensors.

Why do the Ferengi not have cloaking devices?
Their ships were a match for a Galaxy-class vessel, clearly they didn't have any power issues...

Aside from the fact we see very few Ferengi ships, cloaks are illegal in many places:

Profit and Loss
ODO: Rumour has it you've managed to get your hands on a small cloaking device. 

QUARK: And you believe everything you hear? 

ODO: When it's about you, yes. According to Bajoran law, such a device would be highly illegal. 

QUARK: If I had one, which I don't. 

ODO: I didn't expect you to admit it. I'm simply serving notice. You try to sell it and I'll see to it that you spend the next fifty years digging trenches in a penal colony.
......
QUARK: The station's security chief's a shape-shifter. You can never be too careful. I take it you know what a cloaking device is? Well, I have one. It's not in the best of condition but it'll work for about fifteen minutes. Long enough to get you away from here.

Cardassians should have cloaking as well...

Cardassian ships are crap in every way, and even if they had cloaking devices it does not mean that they would make any difference when facing the Federation since TOS era klingon cloaks don't really work against TNG/VOY/DS9 era sensors.

Unless Spock was speaking generally, saying that cloaking a ship demanded immense power beyond the reach of any ship, and that the Romulans had evidently foudn a way to compensate, or a way around that...
Poof, no more issues...

Scotty note that the Enterprise had a major advantage in power generation over the Romulan ship, and Spock knew that. To disregard the context is dishonest.

Spock never said the energy requirements were beyond any ship. He said the expected requirements were large, and implied the expected requirements to beyond the Romulan ship

The Enterprise Incident
SCOTT: It'll have to hook into our deflector shield control.
Cloaking devices just plug into the deflector shield controls. This means that at least Federation ships come read to cloak out of the box.

The Cardassians, Ferengi and all other spacefaring races with ships the equal of the Federation ships don't have cloaking because the power demands are still too great, and these powers haven't found a way to bypass the power requirement...

A lot of claims, but no evidence to support them. I already proved you are misquoting Spock.

Federation ships lack cloaks because of treaties.

Ferengi can at least buy cloaks if they want to, but cloaks are illegal in some places like Bajorian controlled systems.

Cardassians have never been anywhere near equals to the Federation.

[mojo]

one stupid thing trek/wars debaters do is argue for 5,000 posts about frikkin' cloak bs in the 'stupid things trek/wars debaters say' thread. WHO CARES.

[KSW]

Cloaking is just a matter of power consumption, but it's not a problem for the Federation, just for Romulan vessels...

The Enterprise was much more powerful then her Romulan counterpart.

Balance of Terror
KIRK: Yes, well gentlemen, the question still remains. Can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory? 

SCOTT: No question. Their power is simple impulse. 

KIRK: Meaning we can outrun them?
...

The Romulan ship in question only had impulse power, and Scotty made a big deal about it.

That meant that the Enterprise was faster. Romulan torpedo-weapons were superior to the Federation's phaser-guns, as was their cloaking device superior to federation technology. (This episode was analogous to German subarines in WWII BTW)
Warp-drive doesn't give more power than impulse, it simply allows the ship to move faster on the same amount of energy IIRC. They both get their power from anti-matter.