Galactic Empire vs Federation redux

[Admiral Breetai]

so we're clear here..this not the monster that is post Dominion war starfleet?

This is the "we've so laughably fallen from our former glory that we struggle with complete jokes like the Cardassians? The same Cardassians who The Klingons our peers overran and wtf pwned in mere days when serious?"

assuming we get a dedicated imperial attack force and not..fifty or sixty vessels but say 20,000 smaller vessels and 5,000 ISD's?

The initial attack catches the preachy clowns off guard and they get overrun they loose a thousand or so lightyears a few hundred or a thousand worlds pretty major blow. at this point they are over extended and have lost a good deal of vessels. Nebulas and Galaxies would be utterly nightmarish to deal with and the older vessels will fight well.

Imperials deal with resistance and barely hold the territory they have..A Mister Sloan is shot to death while messing with imperial food stuffs and the consider the case closed

while this is happening Picard and Sisko and other legendary captains rally the higher ups and begin a counter attack Admirals turn the shipyards on and things really get cracking. Around this time a virus starts going around occupied territory killing only humans and near humans and Wookie slaves from the GFFA- Imperial scientist struggle to keep up..new reinforcements stop coming - everyone hopes the virus has not made it back to imperial space.



Ben Maxwell will be leading a fleet in no time, his hard stances are proven right when faced with Imperial barbarity and for now they turn a blind eye to him really picturing Cardassians when he opens a can of whoop ass.

the end result is a two year long affair that results in the complete destruction of the invading fleet. The Galaxy becomes weak on the home front as Palpatine looses tens of thousands of vessels to the enemy trained troops wasted as the civil war at home rages..he rushes production on the death star but finds he needs to use it against enemies that can do that to entire solar systems.

S31 viruses also plague the forces here and in GFFA

I see collapse of the empire in ten years after this

[sonofccn]

so we're clear here..this not the monster that is post Dominion war starfleet?

Well I'm not so sure the immedite post Dominion war starfleet was a "monster". It had veterans crews and better warships but it also had been bled pretty badly in the war. But yes this is set in preachy give peace a chance trek not Sisko's "All I needed to know about diplomacy I learned from Kirk's autobiography" Trek.

assuming we get a dedicated imperial attack force and not..fifty or sixty vessels but say 20,000 smaller vessels and 5,000 ISD's?

Well we're likely, for a full no holds barred assault, looking at far more lesser vessels, which run from patrol boats to heavy cruisers. At least from the ISB Star Destroyers form a tiny minority of the total spacefleet, 24 versus 1600 other combat crafts in regards to a Sector Group. Assuming roughly 208 sector groups being deployed, which 5,000 Star Destroyers would equate too, we'd be talking about three hundred thousand crafts of all sizes. Most of which could be one shot killed of course. But of course this is just me spitting and seeing what sticks. :)

As to the rest I do concur over extension and simple erosion of Imperial forces are going to be big concerns.

[Admiral Breetai]

Well I'm not so sure the immedite post Dominion war starfleet was a "monster". It had veterans crews and better warships but it also had been bled pretty badly in the war. But yes this is set in preachy give peace a chance trek not Sisko's "All I needed to know about diplomacy I learned from Kirk's autobiography" Trek.

it was a monster relative to weaker 'verses to borrow the whedon phrase...post Dominion war a Sovereign or hell a Galaxy at Endor would have resulted in a two and a half minute fleet engagement..followed by dumping the pay load of Q and P torps onto the DS and then telling Lando they were free to attack the now crippled shieldless platform

Galaxies and vessels were markedly more fragile in this era..and their captains less apt to open fire first...

that is unless the Imperial Admiral inquestion has the misfortune of running into Ben Maxwell and a bunch of captains who respect him

Well we're likely, for a full no holds barred assault, looking at far more lesser vessels, which run from patrol boats to heavy cruisers. At least from the ISB Star Destroyers form a tiny minority of the total spacefleet, 24 versus 1600 other combat crafts in regards to a Sector Group. Assuming roughly 208 sector groups being deployed, which 5,000 Star Destroyers would equate too, we'd be talking about three hundred thousand crafts of all sizes. Most of which could be one shot killed of course. But of course this is just me spitting and seeing what sticks. :)

army ants vs a lion..basically and that can kill the lion especially when said lion forgets it's got teeth

I see Klingons calling the feds pussies and doing nothing until they get their balls back

As to the rest I do concur over extension and simple erosion of Imperial forces are going to be big concerns.

it's more than that..one side can outproduce you very easily in that case the concern isn't big it's 'how in the name of the Emperor can I continue this without eventually being driven back by a huge armada and then eventually force forbid..they launch a counter attack at my house"

[Lucky]

so we're clear here..this not the monster that is post Dominion war starfleet?

This is the "we've so laughably fallen from our former glory that we struggle with complete jokes like the Cardassians? The same Cardassians who The Klingons our peers overran and wtf pwned in mere days when serious?"

Star Fleet didn't want to have to deal with occupying Cardassian worlds, and they had bigger fish to deal with

assuming we get a dedicated imperial attack force and not..fifty or sixty vessels but say 20,000 smaller vessels and 5,000 ISD's?

And how do the Imperial forces get anywhere without first mapping Hyperlanes?

The initial attack catches the preachy clowns off guard and they get overrun they loose a thousand or so lightyears a few hundred or a thousand worlds pretty major blow. at this point they are over extended and have lost a good deal of vessels. Nebulas and Galaxies would be utterly nightmarish to deal with and the older vessels will fight well.

You do realize those preachy clowns have planetary defenses on at least developed planets right?

Wasn't Picard chosen by Q because he was more diplomatic then most of Star Fleet?

I also suggest you watch TNG: Starship Mine. Picard is not someone you want to mess with. He simply wears a velvet glove over an iron fist.

Imperials deal with resistance and barely hold the territory they have..A Mister Sloan is shot to death while messing with imperial food stuffs and the consider the case closed

More like any Star Wars ground force dies horribly because of how stupidly over powered and accurate Star Trek weapons are. An outdated phase pistol had an output of 10 mega-joules, Voyage implies terra-watt outputs for phaser rifles, and DS-9 had a man portable weapon that could take down gigawatt shields.

THen you have the photon mortars which are in the kiloton range at least.

Let's not forget that the UFP has body armor and personal shields to deal with the above, and that ignores the fact that the standard uniform is armored and protects against temperature extremes seemingly with shields.

[sonofccn]

You do realize those preachy clowns have planetary defenses on at least developed planets right?

In various quanties and qualities yes. We know from the Pale Moon Light Season 6 DS9:

KIRA [OC]: We just received a priority one communication from Starfleet Command. The Dominion has invaded Betazed.

[Ops]

SISKO: According to initial reports, the invasion force must have come from somewhere in the Calandra Sector.
DAX: Did Starfleet Intelligence know anything about the buildup?
WORF: No. They believed Calandra was too far from the Dominion supply lines to be a threat.
SISKO: There's plenty of blame to go around. The Tenth Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it was caught out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.

That individual world's defenses, beyond starfleet, could be inadequate even well beyond the preachy hippy early TNG era. As well we learn from Gambit season 7 TNG:

PICARD: It's defended by Starfleet. You don't think they're just going to stand by while we walk in there and take whatever we want.
BARAN: I'm familiar with the tactical situation.
VEKOR: What are their defences?
BARAN: Nothing to worry about. They have a type four deflector shield protecting the outpost and the ruins.
PICARD: They also have a minimum of two phaser banks and possibly photon torpedoes. Is that enough to worry about?
.
.
.
BARAN: Our weapons are more than a match for their defences. I anticipate that we'll be able to destroy the outpost within fifteen minutes. Then we'll send in Tallera and the landing party to secure the relics.

That an outpost does have ground to space phaser banks and possibly photon torpedoes but even with was only a close match for a single not super powerful mercenary ship.

that ignores the fact that the standard uniform is armored and protects against temperature extremes seemingly with shields.

I'd like to see this quotation if you don't mind.

it was a monster relative to weaker 'verses to borrow the whedon phrase...post Dominion war a Sovereign or hell a Galaxy at Endor would have resulted in a two and a half minute fleet engagement..followed by dumping the pay load of Q and P torps onto the DS and then telling Lando they were free to attack the now crippled shieldless platform

I have to respectfully disagree. A single Sovereign couldn't take on thirty ISDs by itself. It could be a great boon to the Rebel fleet but on its lonesome sheer weight of numbers are going to bring it down.

it's more than that..one side can outproduce you very easily in that case the concern isn't big it's 'how in the name of the Emperor can I continue this without eventually being driven back by a huge armada and then eventually force forbid..they launch a counter attack at my house"

Well here again I have to disagree. Looking back at the ISB it suggests a total fleet for the Empire of millions of lesser vessels including 600 meter long Dreadnought heavy cruisers and 450 meter long strike cruisers which are not small vessals by Starfleet standards. We know the Empire builds and maintains tens of thousands of 900-1600 meter starships in addition to the lesser warships, that a faction the Empire absorbed was able to build 3 km wide starships for trade etc. While it is debatable how much of this could be funneled into the Federation by sheer industry compared to sheer industry I'd argue the Empire is the one who can easily outproduce the other not vice versa.

[Lucky]

In various quanties and qualities yes. We know from the Pale Moon Light Season 6 DS9:

KIRA [OC]: We just received a priority one communication from Starfleet Command. The Dominion has invaded Betazed.

[Ops]

SISKO: According to initial reports, the invasion force must have come from somewhere in the Calandra Sector.

DAX: Did Starfleet Intelligence know anything about the buildup?

WORF: No. They believed Calandra was too far from the Dominion supply lines to be a threat.

SISKO: There's plenty of blame to go around. The Tenth Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it was caught out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.

That individual world's defenses, beyond starfleet, could be inadequate even well beyond the preachy hippy early TNG era.

That tells us very little. TOS era defense systems would be obsolete in the TNG/DS9/Voyager era, but be up to snuff for dealing with the Empire.

TNG technologies > TOS technologies
Technologies are constantly improving in Star Trek.

Where the does the preachy hippy crap come from? You are talking about Star Trek. It is Star Wars that has peace at any cost preachy hippies.

PICARD: It's defended by Starfleet. You don't think they're just going to stand by while we walk in there and take whatever we want.
BARAN: I'm familiar with the tactical situation.
VEKOR: What are their defences?
BARAN: Nothing to worry about. They have a type four deflector shield protecting the outpost and the ruins.
PICARD: They also have a minimum of two phaser banks and possibly photon torpedoes. Is that enough to worry about?
.
.
.
BARAN: Our weapons are more than a match for their defences. I anticipate that we'll be able to destroy the outpost within fifteen minutes. Then we'll send in Tallera and the landing party to secure the relics.

That an outpost does have ground to space phaser banks and possibly photon torpedoes but even with was only a close match for a single not super powerful mercenary ship.

That tells us nothing much of anything. If you want the quote to imply what you claim it does you need to quantify the capabilities of the ship, shields and weapons.

What can a type 4 deflector repel?

What model phaser does the outpost have? Even a small phaser bank has gigawatt outputs.

What model of photon torpedo does the outpost have?

What is the mercenary's ship capable of?

I'd like to see this quotation if you don't mind.

The standard uniform lets a human endure -22 degree Celsius (-7.4 F) temperatures for hours with only minor discomfort.(Voyager: Displaced)

Data grabs a car that is trying to run him over, and he doesn't budge when he grabs the rear bumper. That shows that Star Fleet issue shoes are not just simple footwear.(TNG: Emergence)

Lore lit Dr. Crusher's jacket on fire. I don't recall her getting burnt. (TNG: DataLore)

Chakotey was able to easily go close to lava that ran like water. He jumped over it, and stood on small rocks surrounded by it. Footwear, protection from heat, and protection from poison gas possibly(Voyager: Basics)

Then you have all those times the characters just slap an arm band on one arm, but are then uniformly covered with a shield of some kind. That implies that it is the uniform generating the shield rather then the arm band.

The uniforms(the physical props) were often padded to make the actor appear more fit. SOD tells us that is in fact armor in-universe.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Starfle ... Appendices
We also see various designs of armor used by the Federation over time. The armor used in the Dominion War appeared to be a thicker version of the standard uniform in many ways.

The Star Fleet uniform is not simple cloth.

[sonofccn]

That tells us very little.

It tells use that plantary defense fluxuates, that even years after the period in question after the kick in the pants provided by the Borg, the saber rattling of the Romulans etc there were still worlds with undermanned and obsolete defense systems. A issue likely to be more prevelant during the Federation's complacently period than less.

TOS era defense systems would be obsolete in the TNG/DS9/Voyager era, but be up to snuff for dealing with the Empire.

Well we each have our own opinions. I don't believe TOS era planatary defense would be up to snuff for dealing with a determined attack by the Empire.

TNG technologies > TOS technologies
Technologies are constantly improving in Star Trek.

Okay?

Where the does the preachy hippy crap come from? You are talking about Star Trek

Well for me it would be Lonely among us TNG season 1 were Riker and Picard mug the camera while wondering how anyone could be so stupid as to be divided on economic lines. There would also be the "evolved" trait of Encounter of far point TNG season 1 which involved trying to show humanities moral superority while an unidentified alien ship, refusing to respond to hails, began bombarding a supposed ally.

It is Star Wars that has peace at any cost preachy hippies.

If you say so.

That tells us nothing much of anything. If you want the quote to imply what you claim it does

I'm not implying anything. Merely stating the defenses of an outpost were only a close match to a single ship run by Mercs. One never implied to be some super-powerful dreadnought. However here:

I. for something of a comparison between the E-D and the Merc Raider. I think it is fair to say it is somewhat less powerful than a Galaxy class starship.

What can a type 4 deflector repel?

What model phaser does the outpost have? Even a small phaser bank has gigawatt outputs.

What model of photon torpedo does the outpost have?

Unknown. Never stated.

The standard uniform lets a human endure -22 degree Celsius (-7.4 F) temperatures for hours with only minor discomfort.(Voyager: Displaced)

Which is not attributed to the uniform, at least I didn't catch anything to that effect with a quick once over, and likely should be taken as an odd outlier.

Data grabs a car that is trying to run him over, and he doesn't budge when he grabs the rear bumper. That shows that Star Fleet issue shoes are not just simple footwear.(TNG: Emergence)

A holographic car on a holographic street by an android is hardly proof of anything regarding his footwear.

Lore lit Dr. Crusher's jacket on fire. I don't recall her getting burnt. (TNG: DataLore)

He lit the sleeve of her jacket on fire. A short lived flame on an outer garmet seems to me to be insufficent to support forcefield technology.

Chakotey was able to easily go close to lava that ran like water. He jumped over it, and stood on small rocks surrounded by it. Footwear, protection from heat, and protection from poison gas possibly

Or ConvectionSchmonvection :) I mean don't get me wrong if you can prove independently starfleet uniforms do what your claiming I'll gladly retroactivly add standing next to searing hot lava but as is it is very shaky grounds to claim because Chakotey could do what Obiwan and Anakin could it must be because his uniform has never stated or implied powers.

Then you have all those times the characters just slap an arm band on one arm, but are then uniformly covered with a shield of some kind. That implies that it is the uniform generating the shield rather then the arm band.

Well we have a short lived forcefield generated, bubble variant, in a fist full of datas TNG season 6 II. in which Worf doesn't appear to be wearing a starfleet issued uniform

We also get this from timescape TNG season 6

GEORDI
(continuing)
But if we want to interact with
that environment... we'd have to
restrict the field. It would have
to be practically skin-tight.

STAR TREK: "Timescape" - 03/29/93 - ACT TWO 21.

24 CONTINUED: (3)

DATA
I will attempt to narrow the
field.

The skin tight effect of their shield was a deliberate product of their engineering not merely a plug and play from a built in generator.

The uniforms(the physical props) were often padded to make the actor appear more fit. SOD tells us that is in fact armor in-universe.

I thought SOD tells us to believe thats muscle? Or that the crew is vain and wants to appear like they work out.

We also see various designs of armor used by the Federation over time. The armor used in the Dominion War appeared to be a thicker version of the standard uniform in many ways.

Yes. I do not doubt armor exists through how much protection against Trek weapons it provides still remains to be seen.

[Admiral Breetai]

]I have to respectfully disagree. A single Sovereign couldn't take on thirty ISDs by itself. It could be a great boon to the Rebel fleet but on its lonesome sheer weight of numbers are going to bring it down.

Why not? They can't shoot it or touch it..it moves faster then TIE's and even more gracefully and can pump out ten or eleven Q or P torps per second if it needs too and thats more than enough to shatter a single ISD

Well here again I have to disagree. Looking back at the ISB it suggests a total fleet for the Empire of millions of lesser vessels including 600 meter long Dreadnought heavy cruisers and 450 meter long strike cruisers which are not small vessals by Starfleet standards. We know the Empire builds and maintains tens of thousands of 900-1600 meter starships in addition to the lesser warships, that a faction the Empire absorbed was able to build 3 km wide starships for trade etc. While it is debatable how much of this could be funneled into the Federation by sheer industry compared to sheer industry I'd argue the Empire is the one who can easily outproduce the other not vice versa.

those vessels would be fleet commerce medical and the like I am sure most of those are hold overs from the republic..the ISD's don't compare with easily reviving dying planetary economies with a few industrial replicators..or rebirthing a dead star

[sonofccn]

Why not? They can't shoot it or touch it..it moves faster then TIE's and even more gracefully and can pump out ten or eleven Q or P torps per second if it needs too and thats more than enough to shatter a single ISD

Well I'm far from certain the Sov is untoucable. Star Destroyers may have lack luster accuracy but they can sling a lot of turbolasers when the need calls. Here ROTS opening battle. Such as @ 2:48-2:50 when the Venator through Anakin's viewport spits out 8-10 blue bolts or @ 4:26-4:28 the Venator dead focus fires about 9. Now multiple that by thirty, 150 if we assume an average of five bolts per second, and that is a lot of "flak" being flung. Assuming one out of four actually hits the Sov we would be talking 37 or so bolts per second or the Sov being hit a thousand times in little under half a minute. Now obviously the Sov will be cutting into this figure but the basic argument remains valid.

those vessels would be fleet commerce medical and the like

A sector group can be expected to contain at least 2,400 ships...another 1,600 combat starships

Medical ships would presumbly be part of the 800 support ships and I don't think Commerce ships would be counted in any event, through Star Galleons used to ferry troops and or supplies again might be counted in the support train. The long and short of it is the ISB suggests the Empire has over three million combat ships of various and myraid sizes. Assuming Dreadnoughts, Strikes and Carrack light cruisers make up only ten percent of that number we would be looking at 320,000 versus the 10-20 thousand numbers of starfleet.

I am sure most of those are hold overs from the republic..

Well dreadnoughts predate the Clonewars by decades as does the Carrack to my knowledge through of course Starfleet also has its mainstays like the Mirandas who have comparable age.

the ISD's don't compare with easily reviving dying planetary economies with a few industrial replicators..

Actually...

There are whole star systems whose gross domestic product is less than the cost of a single Imperial Star Destroyer

ISDs are expensive investments for the cost of one I'm sure the Imperial Navy could prop up a planet's economy. As to the Industrial replicators we don't to my knowledge know exactly how they were used. What their use entailed or how much better they actually were going to make the situation.

or rebirthing a dead star

Which is impressive technologically but I don't think really says much about their industry capability.

[Admiral Breetai]

[Well I'm far from certain the Sov is untoucable. Star Destroyers may have lack luster accuracy but they can sling a lot of turbolasers when the need calls. Here ROTS opening battle. Such as @ 2:48-2:50 when the Venator through Anakin's viewport spits out 8-10 blue bolts or @ 4:26-4:28 the Venator dead focus fires about 9. Now multiple that by thirty, 150 if we assume an average of five bolts per second, and that is a lot of "flak" being flung. Assuming one out of four actually hits the Sov we would be talking 37 or so bolts per second or the Sov being hit a thousand times in little under half a minute. Now obviously the Sov will be cutting into this figure but the basic argument remains valid.

problem 1 range

2, Sovies are ungodly tough bastards

[Medical ships would presumbly be part of the 800 support ships and I don't think Commerce ships would be counted in any event, through Star Galleons used to ferry troops and or supplies again might be counted in the support train. The long and short of it is the ISB suggests the Empire has over three million combat ships of various and myraid sizes. Assuming Dreadnoughts, Strikes and Carrack light cruisers make up only ten percent of that number we would be looking at 320,000 versus the 10-20 thousand numbers of starfleet.

the numbers game doesn't really matter though when you cannot bring that many to bare without crippling yourself..and then of course you have the quality vs quantity problems and an enemy who can despite crippling losses still hurl ten or twenty plus thousand vessels at you
[

[

There are whole star systems whose gross domestic product is less than the cost of a single Imperial Star Destroyer

ISDs are expensive investments for the cost of one I'm sure the Imperial Navy could prop up a planet's economy. As to the Industrial replicators we don't to my knowledge know exactly how they were used. What their use entailed or how much better they actually were going to make the situation.

which proves to me their construction abilities suck as their is no way a ship like that could be expensive unless they were just backwards as all hell

[Which is impressive technologically but I don't think really says much about their industry capability.

it proves their only problem is man power..because they sure as hell don't have a resource problem

[sonofccn]

problem 1 range

I freely admit if the Sov chooses to use its range than it can kill ISDs until it power cells run dry. I personally don't feel the evidence justifies the assumption of that prefrence however.

2, Sovies are ungodly tough bastards

True unfortantly there is reason to assume ISDs are helluva tough as well, the ROTS novel quote back on page 2 showing the battle we saw had waged for hours at that point and we know weapons powerful enough to vaporize a small town were being thrown around. As well in this scenario the Sov would be outnumbered thirty to one.

the numbers game doesn't really matter though when you cannot bring that many to bare without crippling yourself.

Yes it is completely debatable how much the Empire can afford to funnel into this "adventure" without suffering internal collaspe. But the evidence does support base industry compared to base industry that the Galactic Empire's is bigger by an indeterminate amount.

and then of course you have the quality vs quantity

Well yes pound per pound Starfleet runs circles around the Imperial navy.

which proves to me their construction abilities suck as their is no way a ship like that could be expensive unless they were just backwards as all hell

I can't say to that, merely the Imperial navy's budget has the raw monetary value to accomplish similar to what the Federation did should the Empire be so mercifully motivated.

it proves their only problem is man power..because they sure as hell don't have a resource problem

I'm afraid I still don't follow. What link is there between regenerating a star and the myraid resources needed to manufacture phasers, starships, tricorders etc?

[Praeothmin]

Just a quick note, Admiral:
The E-E in first contact certainly wasn't maneuvering in any way like a Tie in RotJ, and neither was it maneuvering that way in ST: NEM, so the maneuverability against saturated firing areas would be non-existent...
I do agree 1 Sovie added to the Endor fleet would do some mighty damage, though...

[Lucky]

It tells use that plantary defense fluxuates, that even years after the period in question after the kick in the pants provided by the Borg, the saber rattling of the Romulans etc there were still worlds with undermanned and obsolete defense systems. A issue likely to be more prevelant during the Federation's complacently period than less.

We already knew that different planets have different levels of protection, and the quote says nothing about what defenses Betazed had. You act like you prove some point again. You really love to play dumb until the other guy just walks away because you can't be bothered it seems like sometimes.

We know shields are a standard defense, and cover entire planets as far back as TOS.

We know the Federation hands out ground based phasers and photon torpedos to shoot down ships.

We know a defensive fleet of some sort are used by both Earth and Vulcan.

What ever Betazed had for defenses it was able to hold off a fleet for ten hours, and that leads to the question of where you proved a fleet in Star Wars carries the technology and firepower to even bring down TOS era defenses.

Well we each have our own opinions. I don't believe TOS era planatary defense would be up to snuff for dealing with a determined attack by the Empire.

Playing dumb again. Please stop.

YOu have to have seen this quote a number of times

SCOTT: I gave him the sign. Why didn't he give me the countersign? 

MCCOY: Something's wrong. 

SCOTT: Using the chess problem was the Captain's own suggestion. He couldn't have forgotten it, and I can't believe he was testing me. Lieutenant, re establish communication. 

UHURA: Aye, sir. There's no response, Mister Scott. 

SCOTT: Send an armed detail to the transporter room immediately. 

UHURA: Aye, aye, sir. 

SCOTT: Mister Sulu, what do your sensors show? 

SULU: We can't beam anybody down, sir. The force field on the planet is in full operation, and all forms of transport into the asylum dome are blocked off. 

SCOTT: We could blast our way through the field, but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mister Spock and any other living thing on Elba Two. 

MCCOY: How can we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless?

ULU: There's been an explosion on Elba Two! 

SCOTT: Point nine five! 

MCCOY: It must've wiped out everything. 

SCOTT: Immediate probe. Is the force field in place, Mister Sulu? 

SULU: Yes, sir. Solidly. 

UHURA: (at Spock's station) Life continues to exist on the planet. 

MCCOY: Got to break through it somehow. 

SCOTT: Doctor, I told you we couldn't do it without killing everyone in the asylum dome. 

MCCOY: I know it, Scotty. 

SCOTT: Well, there's one last thing we might try. Perhaps the ship's phasers can cut through a section of the force field at its weakest point. Where did you say that was located, Mister Sulu? 

SULU: On the far side of the planet, Mister Scott. 

MCCOY: Will it leave a margin of safety for the people below? 

SULU: Yes, sir. 

SCOTT: Prepare to change orbital path, Mister Sulu. 

SULU: Orbital co-ordinates released, sir. 

SCOTT: Break synchronous orbit. Come to course one four mark six eight. 

(after a few moments) 

SULU: Course one four mark six eight. Synchronous orbit re-established, sir. 

SCOTT: Ship's phasers to narrow beam. 

SULU: Ship's phasers ready, sir. 

SCOTT: Let's punch a hole in it. Full power. Another blast, full power. 

SULU: Force field still holding, sir.

Star Destroyers don't have that kind of firepower, and some outdated planet based weapons in Star Trek are more powerful then the Death Star's superlaser.

Okay?

We see TNG ships engage TOS ships, and the TNG ships are far superior

Well for me it would be Lonely among us TNG season 1 were Riker and Picard mug the camera while wondering how anyone could be so stupid as to be divided on economic lines. There would also be the "evolved" trait of Encounter of far point TNG season 1 which involved trying to show humanities moral superority while an unidentified alien ship, refusing to respond to hails, began bombarding a supposed ally.

Then it can be ignored since the writers did.

Be nice if someone would provide a quote or clip of what they are talking about.

If you say so.

The way they managed 1000 years of peace was to just let the groups like the Trade Federation do whatever the hell they wanted while planets like Naboo were looted.

Then you have the horrible designs implying they are not battle tested. AT-TE should not have big glass windows in front of the pilot.

Lastly the Republic seems to have had no military/police force beyond Jedi and corrupt and seemingly understaffed forces on each planet, and let criminals do almost what ever they pleased.

I'm not implying anything. Merely stating the defenses of an outpost were only a close match to a single ship run by Mercs. One never implied to be some super-powerful dreadnought. However here:

I. for something of a comparison between the E-D and the Merc Raider. I think it is fair to say it is somewhat less powerful than a Galaxy class starship.

So you have no idea? Why use it as an example then since you can't quantify it?

Kirk's Enterprise was less powerful then the E-D remember.

Unknown. Never stated.

Then why use the episode as an example? You need to be able to quantify the event.

Which is not attributed to the uniform, at least I didn't catch anything to that effect with a quick once over, and likely should be taken as an odd outlier.

Then you are claiming Star Trek humans are super-human bad asses because that is the only other alliterative.

A holographic car on a holographic street by an android is hardly proof of anything regarding his footwear.

But somehow Worf using holograms to make a shield somehow is different? That looks like something of a double standard?

The car is solid, and deadly. Data grabs the car, and is not dragged even though he should have been holodeck or not.

He lit the sleeve of her jacket on fire. A short lived flame on an outer garmet seems to me to be insufficent to support forcefield technology.

More then enough time to burn her arm..

You're throwing out all the data points, use a false dilemma fallacy, and straw man. No surprise from what I recall of past dealings with you.

I mean don't get me wrong if you can prove independently starfleet uniforms do what your claiming I'll gladly retroactivly add standing next to searing hot lava but as is it is very shaky grounds to claim because Chakotey could do what Obiwan and Anakin could it must be because his uniform has never stated or implied powers.

I've as usual already provided the evidence in on screen feats, and as usual you just ask for something that you know does not exist because you can't extract the information from what the characters do and say. Writers rarely give a technical run down of every peace of equipment the characters have.

Dr. Crusher's coat is lit on fire, but she is not burnt. This shows the uniforms insulate against temperatures that would burn human flesh, and seems to have fire retardant qualities.

Data is able to grab the bumper of a car that was trying to kill them in the holodeck when the safeties are off. Data just planted his feet, and held the car in place. This shoes impossibly good footing.

Tom Paris endured hours in a -22 degree C environment. He was seemingly wearing a standard Star Fleet uniform, and that means that his head and hands are not covered. All he suffered from the experience was mild discomfort from the cold. This shows the uniforms insulate against temperatures that would freeze human flesh, but also shows that exposed skin is seemingly protected somehow.

Chakotey was able to hop around, over and stand on a rock surrounded by lava so hot it was flowing like water, and lots of vapors are in the air, and he does not lose his footing. The child seems to lose consciousness while passing through the vapors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUWiDiD9 ... ure=relmfu

I suppose that the above could be on screen evidence of life-support belt technology being built into the uniforms at some point.
http://www.startrek.com/database_articl ... pport-belt

Well we have a short lived forcefield generated, bubble variant, in a fist full of datas TNG season 6 II. in which Worf doesn't appear to be wearing a starfleet issued uniform

You already said holodeck doesn't count. Rather odd that the shield generator was made out of holograms, forcefields, and a com badge.

Since the user is always at the center then the field must be projected from the user.

GEORDI
(continuing)
But if we want to interact with
that environment... we'd have to
restrict the field. It would have
to be practically skin-tight.

STAR TREK: "Timescape" - 03/29/93 - ACT TWO 21.

24 CONTINUED: (3)

DATA
I will attempt to narrow the
field.

The skin tight effect of their shield was a deliberate product of their engineering not merely a plug and play from a built in generator.

You just proved the Federation can make protective fields that are skin tight.

What relevance does this have beyond proving shields as part of the uniform possible?

I thought SOD tells us to believe thats muscle? Or that the crew is vain and wants to appear like they work out.

SOD tells us that people who are portrayed as engaging in a healthy life style by eating right and exercising are eating right and exercising.

Tuvok had the job of getting the Maquis into proper shape.

Worf is one of the characters who's uniform was padded. He is portrayed as extremely physically fit even for a Klingon. He is one of the top Klingon athletes in the Galaxy as I recall. Worf also has a thing about things being simple and practical as I recall.

As I recall Diana Troy had to practically disengage safeties on her replicator to get actual junk food, and there is no way she was hiding anything with that unitard.

Star Fleet is a paramilitary organization. They will logically have fitness standards for it's personnel.

If their clothing is padded it will likely serve an actual purpose beyond just looks. In the real world it is not unheard of for people to purchase armored clothing if they have reason to think something may try to kill them or are likely to face danger, and nearly every other power in Star Trek seems to put it's military in armor of some sort.

Yes. I do not doubt armor exists through how much protection against Trek weapons it provides still remains to be seen.

We see armors that protect the wearer from the environmental threats found on a Neutron Star, but it doesn't protect well against phasers as I recall.

I seem to recall a Klingon once take two stun hits because of his armor in some episode.

There is a Federation grunt who had something like half his armor seemingly burnt off his chest, and then died of blood loss. That supports the idea that Federation armor will protect against blasters.

Star Trek weapons tend to seemingly ignore armor most of the time when put on the right setting, but we don't know what setting the weapons are on most of the time

The problem is that armor that defends against Star Wars type blasters is very different from anything that will protect something from a phaser or disruptor. All you really need to protect against a Star Wars type blaster is a tuff leathery hide

[Picard]

This is the "we've so laughably fallen from our former glory that we struggle with complete jokes like the Cardassians? The same Cardassians who The Klingons our peers overran and wtf pwned in mere days when serious?"

Actually, as it was pointed out, Federation basically destroyed Cardassian economical and industrial power without even having to go over the border... and without anyone in Federation not directly involved with war even noticing there was some kind of war being fought. If Federation decided, at any single point, to mount a serious invasion of Cardassian space, Cardassians would be in a world of hurt. Federation did not lack military, industrial or economical power. It lacked political will to do anything more than simply containing Cardassia.

Even during early TNG, military power in Alpha Quadrant was like this:

UFP >= Klingon Empire > Romulan Empire > Cardassian Union

Post-Borg invasions, it was more like this:

UFP > Klingon Empire > Romulan Empire

[Praeothmin]

Star Destroyers don't have that kind of firepower, and some outdated planet based weapons in Star Trek are more powerful then the Death Star's superlaser.

Please provide evidence for this wank-tastic claim, Lucky...
Seriously...